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Yet another potential HS Tragedy

YYW
Posts: 36,391
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5/26/2013 8:35:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
A high school student in Oregon was plotting a Columbine-style shooting/bombing, and apparently had both the means and materials to do precisely that.

My proposal: I've had enough of this sh!t.

I submit that all high school students in the United States should undergo regular, mandatory mental health screenings by licensed psychiatrists.
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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5/26/2013 9:57:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At the risk of sounding callous, I think school shootings are a very marginal issue, and I think spending outrageously large sums of money to try to fix the problem is unjustified, given the far greater good the resources this program would need to command could achieve.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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5/26/2013 10:09:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:57:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At the risk of sounding callous, I think school shootings are a very marginal issue, and I think spending outrageously large sums of money to try to fix the problem is unjustified, given the far greater good the resources this program would need to command could achieve.

This is a bit of cheat considering this would require tax money, of which I am opposed to in the first place, but if the money is going to be spend, I'm against it being spent on this.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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5/26/2013 10:10:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 10:09:53 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:57:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At the risk of sounding callous, I think school shootings are a very marginal issue, and I think spending outrageously large sums of money to try to fix the problem is unjustified, given the far greater good the resources this program would need to command could achieve.

This is a bit of cheat considering this would require tax money, of which I am opposed to in the first place, but if the money is going to be spend, I'm against it being spent on this.

spent *
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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5/26/2013 11:18:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 10:09:53 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:57:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At the risk of sounding callous, I think school shootings are a very marginal issue, and I think spending outrageously large sums of money to try to fix the problem is unjustified, given the far greater good the resources this program would need to command could achieve.

This is a bit of cheat considering this would require tax money, of which I am opposed to in the first place, but if the money is going to be spend, I'm against it being spent on this.

So what you're telling me is that it's the financial costs of implementing life saving infrastructure outweigh the benefits of lives saved?

Moreover, think of all the good that could be achieved by having a psychological profile of every student that attended public school. Suicides could be prevented, possibly. Eating disorders, addressed. Bullying issues, identified and resolved.

I say this only because what I'd really like to do, would probably be even more contentious:

Impose a mandatory draft for all American 18 year olds into either the US Army or US Navy. Two years of service, minimum.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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5/27/2013 12:00:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 11:50:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
You can't fix crazy,

Actually, you can... and there is an entire field of mental health professionals dedicated to the pursuit. But if nothing else, crazy can be managed -and that's what I'm going for here.
Tsar of DDO
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/27/2013 12:52:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This has so many potential problems with this. The first being false-positive. The second is that there would be false-negative as well. Psychiatry isn't an exact science as you might think. The cost of screening is incredibly expensive which might not even reveal anything, and the person shoots up the place anyhow.

And if the person turns out to have a mental illness, what are you going to do? Are you going to take away their rights as citizens? Are you going to force them to obtain treatment? Force them to take drugs? School shooters have been diagnosed and receiving treatment with mental illnesses and still did shootings. What would the additional screening do to stop things?

Note, this also assumes here that teachers and parents would be completely oblivious to problems a child might have, which they usually aren't.

School shootings tend to be on the news for a reason, its because they're actually incredibly rare and make for a good news story.
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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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5/27/2013 1:23:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 12:52:43 AM, darkkermit wrote:
This has so many potential problems with this. The first being false-positive. The second is that there would be false-negative as well.

So, I didn't get into details but I think a running record would be best. I'm not saying that keeping mental health profiles necessarily will prevent all future episodes of school violence, but that doing so would be a positive effort towards prevention of a tragedy before it occurred.

Psychiatry isn't an exact science as you might think.

I don't disagree with you there.

The cost of screening is incredibly expensive which might not even reveal anything, and the person shoots up the place anyhow.

Again, I'm not saying that I have the "one stop shop" solution to violence in schools -I'm saying that this is a step -the taking of which would better enable school officials and mental health professionals to recognize problems before they became threats.

And if the person turns out to have a mental illness, what are you going to do? Are you going to take away their rights as citizens?

Explain how you think a student's rights would be violated by having them talk with a psychiatrist for a mental health check up, in the same way that one might go for a physical health check up? I'm thinking you're afraid of the stigma that attaches to mental illness, and I grant you that that's a legitimate concern -but mass shootings are also a legitimate concern.

What has to be balanced is this: individual's rights to medical privacy v. societal interests in preserving peace. I'm not saying that I'll be in favor of handing out prescriptions for thorozine, but what I am saying is that there are a range of potential benefits here.

I think that in some states (like California, New York, etc.) it would be legally necessary to allow parents to freely opt out, and perhaps there's some benefit to that -but by maintaining the status quo, we can only assume that more of the same will continue to occur.

Moreover, let me be clear that I'm not saying -or suggesting that we operate under the assumption- that all students are always already threats to all other students. That would be ludicrous.

Are you going to force them to obtain treatment? Force them to take drugs? School shooters have been diagnosed and receiving treatment with mental illnesses and still did shootings. What would the additional screening do to stop things?

Depends on the circumstance. I'm saying right now that if the root of extreme antisocial behavior is rooted in mental defect, it makes sense to identify those defects that they not develop into another episode of violence against innocent students.

Note, this also assumes here that teachers and parents would be completely oblivious to problems a child might have, which they usually aren't.

Except for when they are... I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of only giving teachers the option to recommend students for meaningful behavioral intervention, mental help, etc. as a starting point -but as a rule when children act poorly, I first and foremost look at the parents. It's hard to generalize beyond that, though.

School shootings tend to be on the news for a reason, its because they're actually incredibly rare and make for a good news story.

Rare relative to what? By what metric are you saying that school shootings are "rare"? Rare, as in only two or three days of the year, do they happen in the United States? Rare, as in it's more likely that a child will die in a car accident than in a school shooting? What does "rare" mean to you, and even if it is rare why is that any reason to do nothing?
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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5/27/2013 8:36:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 11:18:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/26/2013 10:09:53 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:57:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At the risk of sounding callous, I think school shootings are a very marginal issue, and I think spending outrageously large sums of money to try to fix the problem is unjustified, given the far greater good the resources this program would need to command could achieve.

This is a bit of cheat considering this would require tax money, of which I am opposed to in the first place, but if the money is going to be spend, I'm against it being spent on this.

So what you're telling me is that it's the financial costs of implementing life saving infrastructure outweigh the benefits of lives saved?

Moreover, think of all the good that could be achieved by having a psychological profile of every student that attended public school. Suicides could be prevented, possibly. Eating disorders, addressed. Bullying issues, identified and resolved.

I say this only because what I'd really like to do, would probably be even more contentious:

Impose a mandatory draft for all American 18 year olds into either the US Army or US Navy. Two years of service, minimum.

We don't need 20M soldiers. lol. That would be way too expensive, disruptive to people's lives, and frankly, evil.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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5/27/2013 8:39:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you know if any other countries already do this? That would be the place to start if you're going to argue we should follow suit.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/27/2013 12:52:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 8:35:15 PM, YYW wrote:


A high school student in Oregon was plotting a Columbine-style shooting/bombing, and apparently had both the means and materials to do precisely that.

My proposal: I've had enough of this sh!t.

I submit that all high school students in the United States should undergo regular, mandatory mental health screenings by licensed psychiatrists.

I don't think it is mental health, per se that is the issue, generally. I think it is more of an either/or between: a cry for attention or revenge for hurt feelings (bullying or "bullying").

Frankly, the kid-on-school shootings, IMO, are often comitted by misguided youths that think the world should revolve around them. These kids seem to come from middle-income families and are loners. I think this mix between being coddled at home and ignored at school is irreconsilable for these youths. Ergo, I blame the parents for their parenting, and the teen for not putting on their big boy pants and realizing the world, largely, doesn't care about them.

"Nobody really knew the kid" said some student.
My work here is, finally, done.