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kelly224
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11/30/2009 1:59:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
One of the many downfalls of a capitalistic structure is the lack of civility. I see that the pace has increased in the way we live.We have alot of our daily interactions online now, so folks are not at all afraid to scold someone with no regard to respect. No one has any patience anymore. I find this ironic, because people seem to be making more money these days. Isn't that what they equated to their happiness?...Weren't all the credit cards supposed to make things alright?

your thoughts?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/30/2009 2:21:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 1:59:26 PM, kelly224 wrote:
One of the many downfalls of a capitalistic structure is the lack of civility.

Non sequitur much?

I see that the pace has increased in the way we live.We have alot of our daily interactions online now, so folks are not at all afraid to scold someone with no regard to respect.

Respect is earned.

No one has any patience anymore.

No one? Really?

I find this ironic, because people seem to be making more money these days. Isn't that what they equated to their happiness?

Sure, compare them to the dump beggar in Sri Lanka, the starving serf under feudalism..
PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 4:10:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 1:59:26 PM, kelly224 wrote:
One of the many downfalls of a capitalistic structure is the lack of civility. I see that the pace has increased in the way we live.We have alot of our daily interactions online now, so folks are not at all afraid to scold someone with no regard to respect. No one has any patience anymore. I find this ironic, because people seem to be making more money these days. Isn't that what they equated to their happiness?...Weren't all the credit cards supposed to make things alright?

I very much agree. Particularly here in America, capitalism has focused our collective desires too much on materialistic things. Corporations have grown too large. Commercials convince the masses that, yes, they do deserve this product.

Few save money. Most spend and spend and spend their ways to debt.

Capitalism is the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/30/2009 4:16:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:10:17 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

Capitalism is the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D

"So you think that money [capitalism] is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?"
President of DDO
PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 4:31:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:16:58 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/30/2009 4:10:17 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

Capitalism is the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D

"So you think that money [capitalism] is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?"

*Unregulated capitalism and the shlt it inspires are the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D
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comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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11/30/2009 4:32:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 1:59:26 PM, kelly224 wrote:
One of the many downfalls of a capitalistic structure is the lack of civility. I see that the pace has increased in the way we live.We have alot of our daily interactions online now, so folks are not at all afraid to scold someone with no regard to respect. No one has any patience anymore. I find this ironic, because people seem to be making more money these days. Isn't that what they equated to their happiness?...Weren't all the credit cards supposed to make things alright?



your thoughts?

Capitalistic structure is awesome.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/30/2009 4:45:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:10:17 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Capitalism is the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D

Capitalism is the only thing preventing society from collapsing upon itself. People are obsessed with money. Money is an objective measure of human work and the value of the work is determined by society.

Biologically, we are social creatures that are meant to contribute to the whole in an indirect manner by promoting ourselves directly. This is why animals of the same species will kill each other for mates. They are attempting to spread their genes as much as possible and the method of competition ensures that the whole in general is stronger by eliminating the weak.

Capitalism is the same thing. The lazy are hindered from breaking out of poverty by their own laziness, while the hardworking are rewarded with a bigger piece of the pie.

There is no socioeconomic system other than Capitalism that would allow a society to evolve.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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11/30/2009 4:46:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:10:17 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Few save money. Most spend and spend and spend their ways to debt.

Capitalism is the disgusting poison that is raping society. :D

You're right, they should be forced to save and given no incentive to do work. That'll get us somewhere.
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johngriswald
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11/30/2009 4:47:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:16:58 PM, theLwerd wrote:
"So you think that money [capitalism] is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?"

Trees
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Volkov
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11/30/2009 4:54:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:45:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Capitalism is the only thing preventing society from collapsing upon itself. People are obsessed with money. Money is an objective measure of human work and the value of the work is determined by society.

Biologically, we are social creatures that are meant to contribute to the whole in an indirect manner by promoting ourselves directly. This is why animals of the same species will kill each other for mates. They are attempting to spread their genes as much as possible and the method of competition ensures that the whole in general is stronger by eliminating the weak.

Capitalism is the same thing. The lazy are hindered from breaking out of poverty by their own laziness, while the hardworking are rewarded with a bigger piece of the pie.

There is no socioeconomic system other than Capitalism that would allow a society to evolve.

Such a social Darwinist stance. But, mostly true.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/30/2009 4:57:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:54:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
Such a social Darwinist stance. But, mostly true.

Darwinism as an applied philosophy fails. Even Dawkins says that a Darwinian society would be dreadful. lol
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
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11/30/2009 4:58:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:40:45 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
For Cody

"Fascism is capitalism plus murder."

Damn, you just provided him with the material to not have a dry dream.
johngriswald
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11/30/2009 4:59:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:57:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/30/2009 4:54:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
Such a social Darwinist stance. But, mostly true.

Darwinism as an applied philosophy fails. Even Dawkins says that a Darwinian society would be dreadful. lol

Well if Dawkins says so then it must be absolute truth, if even he agrees.
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Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/30/2009 5:07:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:57:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/30/2009 4:54:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
Such a social Darwinist stance. But, mostly true.

Darwinism as an applied philosophy fails. Even Dawkins says that a Darwinian society would be dreadful. lol

We *are* a Darwinian society. Society is an outgrowth of our innate biology. Capitalism is just modified natural selection. Fitness is replaced with wealth, death is replaced with poverty, genetics is replaced with diligence.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 5:07:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 4:45:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Capitalism is the same thing. The lazy are hindered from breaking out of poverty by their own laziness, while the hardworking are rewarded with a bigger piece of the pie.

Capitalism do not distribute the wealth based on performance. When 1% of world population owns 40% of all wealth, when 10% of world population already own 85% of all wealth, and when the poorest 50% world population own less than 1% of all wealth, something is wrong. People at the top are not working hundreds and hundreds of times harder than the bottom fifty percent. To say otherwise is absurd.[1]

Not to mention, the people at the top one percent get to make the laws deciding how to distribute the wealth. When's the last time you heard a small business or a poor individual bribing congress?

Capitalism is unfair for the majority of people. It stands in direct opposition to democracy.

----
[1] These numbers translate on a national level as well. In America, the top one percent owns more than the bottom seventy-five combined. The top one percent got this from effort? BS. Money makes money in America. Effort is a relatively minor force.
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Kleptin
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11/30/2009 5:18:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:07:54 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Why are you talking about global statistics in your critique of capitalism? How is that logical o.o?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 5:21:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:18:58 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/30/2009 5:07:54 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Why are you talking about global statistics in your critique of capitalism? How is that logical o.o?

I realized the same. That's why I added teh footnote.
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PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 5:28:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:21:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 11/30/2009 5:18:58 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/30/2009 5:07:54 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Why are you talking about global statistics in your critique of capitalism? How is that logical o.o?

I realized the same. That's why I added teh footnote.

And moreover, I'd argue that the reason for the rich owning a grotesquely dispassionate amount of the wealth also has to do with capitalism: rich CEOs seek to maximize profit by building cheap factories and oppressing the people of other nations.

But back to my point. The top one percent in America own more than the bottom seventy-five combined. The top one percent did not get there by effort, because they certainly aren't more hard working than the seventy-five percent combined. It is grossly disproportionate. In America, money makes money. Not effort. Effort is a relatively minor force.
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Kleptin
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11/30/2009 5:34:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:21:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
I realized the same. That's why I added teh footnote.

Oh. K.

The correlation between effort and work is not, never was, and never will be linear. You can have the most hardworking flower-picker in the world go up against the laziest brain surgeon and the brain surgeon would make more money. Why? Because brain surgery is more useful than flower picking, and Capitalism is the only system that reflects that.

Your argument would make sense if the top 1% have their money stuffed under their mattresses. They don't. The money is floating around, stimulating the economy. Money makes money because they are getting paid for performing a service: Loaning their money out to other hardworking people.

In one generation, someone who started with nothing can be supported with an upper middle class child for the rest of his life. In another generation after that, they will hit the upper class. It's all about how much a person is willing to risk for the next generation. The American mixed-economy makes it possible to channel effort into wealth, more so than any other system you can imagine.

It's as fair as it can be while still being practical.

But if you have a problem with it, why don't you suggest changes?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/30/2009 5:36:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:07:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/30/2009 4:57:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/30/2009 4:54:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
Such a social Darwinist stance. But, mostly true.

Darwinism as an applied philosophy fails. Even Dawkins says that a Darwinian society would be dreadful. lol

We *are* a Darwinian society. Society is an outgrowth of our innate biology. Capitalism is just modified natural selection. Fitness is replaced with wealth, death is replaced with poverty, genetics is replaced with diligence.

I won't even go there. This could be an entire debate on it's own.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
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11/30/2009 5:38:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:28:35 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
And moreover, I'd argue that the reason for the rich owning a grotesquely dispassionate amount of the wealth also has to do with capitalism: rich CEOs seek to maximize profit by building cheap factories and oppressing the people of other nations.

This argument is invalid. Capitalism isn't the reason why rich CEOs seek to maximize profit. Human instinct is. And correct me if I'm wrong, but since when does giving impoverished people an opportunity to exchange work for food count as oppression?

But back to my point. The top one percent in America own more than the bottom seventy-five combined. The top one percent did not get there by effort, because they certainly aren't more hard working than the seventy-five percent combined. It is grossly disproportionate. In America, money makes money. Not effort. Effort is a relatively minor force.

See the post I made at the top of this page.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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11/30/2009 5:41:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
While I agree with you Kleptin for most things, I do question whether or not you're being a little bit optimistic about capitalism.

Most of what you say is true, and that is granted. But unlike evolution, in which the strongest will usually come out on top because competitors cannot compete, capitalism provides a system whereby the strongest can keep down sometimes as equally strong competitors through manipulation of the system itself. Opportunities are taken away, and chance for advancement, even if you have the skill, becomes impossible because those that have made it to the top, even those that are weaker, can keep you down unfairly.

So not only does the system provide an advantage to those on top, it provides an advantage to those that may not even be as strong or useful as those below. You can chalk that up to a human's higher-thinking capabilities, but still, it is a fairly skewed system, no matter how correct on paper it may seem.
johngriswald
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11/30/2009 5:43:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:07:54 PM, PoeJoe wrote:

Capitalism do not distribute the wealth based on performance. When 1% of world population owns 40% of all wealth, when 10% of world population already own 85% of all wealth, and when the poorest 50% world population own less than 1% of all wealth, something is wrong. People at the top are not working hundreds and hundreds of times harder than the bottom fifty percent. To say otherwise is absurd.[1]

You're right, they're not working harder, they're working smarter. Having a good idea and having the guts and persistance to pursue it is what makes the 1% the 1%. 70% of wealth is earned. How do they do it? By having great ideas, and being good at what they do. The poorest 50% are the ones who drop out of highschool.
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Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/30/2009 5:46:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:41:29 PM, Volkov wrote:
While I agree with you Kleptin for most things, I do question whether or not you're being a little bit optimistic about capitalism.

Most of what you say is true, and that is granted. But unlike evolution, in which the strongest will usually come out on top because competitors cannot compete, capitalism provides a system whereby the strongest can keep down sometimes as equally strong competitors through manipulation of the system itself. Opportunities are taken away, and chance for advancement, even if you have the skill, becomes impossible because those that have made it to the top, even those that are weaker, can keep you down unfairly.

So not only does the system provide an advantage to those on top, it provides an advantage to those that may not even be as strong or useful as those below. You can chalk that up to a human's higher-thinking capabilities, but still, it is a fairly skewed system, no matter how correct on paper it may seem.

Well said, Volkov. I think that no ideology is perfect in practice which is why I'm for a few, well placed regulations. But as of right now, the mixed economy that I see in place in the US is more capitalism than anything else, and that is what I am arguing on.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 5:47:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:34:36 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Your argument would make sense if the top 1% have their money stuffed under their mattresses. They don't. The money is floating around, stimulating the economy. Money makes money because they are getting paid for performing a service: Loaning their money out to other hardworking people

You're forgetting people who inherited their money. You're forgetting people who received ridiculous windfalls (e.g. pet rocks). But most of all, you're forgetting people who don't work hard but cheat the system. The cigarette companies make money by killing people. Gang leaders are also rich. And only rarely do people like Bernie Madoff get caught. Most of the time they leech off society and become rich.

In one generation, someone who started with nothing can be supported with an upper middle class child for the rest of his life. In another generation after that, they will hit the upper class. It's all about how much a person is willing to risk for the next generation. The American mixed-economy makes it possible to channel effort into wealth, more so than any other system you can imagine.

You bring up an interesting point: we aren't all born the same.

At our birth, we are assigned our life roles. In America, the overwhelming chance is that if you're born poor, you stay poor. If you're born rich, you stay rich. The tragedy is that no childhood the same. So how is that fair?

But if you have a problem with it, why don't you suggest changes?

That our democratically elected government strongly regulate if not take over many of America's most corrupt businesses. That the rich be progressively taxed. That the poor, especially children, are given a chance with better education programs and services. Et cetera...
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PoeJoe
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11/30/2009 5:51:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Also, Kleptin, you didn't respond to "Not to mention, the people at the top one percent get to make the laws deciding how to distribute the wealth. When's the last time you heard a small business or a poor individual bribing congress?"
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Kleptin
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11/30/2009 6:11:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:47:27 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
You're forgetting people who inherited their money.

I think that's perfectly fine. If they're smart enough to keep it, they deserve to keep it. We all inherit money. 3 generations and you'll be inheriting the fruits of an upper class household anyway. Should we ban the act of passing money down from person to person?

You're forgetting people who received ridiculous windfalls (e.g. pet rocks).

Okay, so luck plays a factor. What of it? Do you suggest that we ban that?

But most of all, you're forgetting people who don't work hard but cheat the system.
The cigarette companies make money by killing people. Gang leaders are also rich. And only rarely do people like Bernie Madoff get caught. Most of the time they leech off society and become rich.

So, your problem with the system is that the system is imperfect. You are aware of the fact that people choose to buy cigarettes, choose to participate in black market activities, choose to swindle and scam and steal in ANY economic market, correct? That it has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with human nature?

At our birth, we are assigned our life roles. In America, the overwhelming chance is that if you're born poor, you stay poor. If you're born rich, you stay rich. The tragedy is that no childhood the same. So how is that fair?

Loaded question. That's like asking me if I've stopped beating my wife. It's very easy to escape poverty, immigrant families do it within 1-2 generations, very very frequently.

When you say "overwhelming chance", you mean percentage of people who actually are, without stopping to notice that the majority of poor people are poor because they perpetuate a cycle of poverty due to LAZINESS. You're deriving bad assumptions from flawed statistics.

You look at the percentage of poor in America and assume that nothing is happening when in reality, people are moving out of poverty and into poverty all the time. It's just that there are more lazy people than hardworking people at any given point in time, and that's why we have more poor people. Wealth has to be maintained. It's easy to lose, but hard to gain. It can take 3 generations of hard work to get to upper class and just 1 generation of laziness to be completely bankrupt.

But if you have a problem with it, why don't you suggest changes?

That our democratically elected government strongly regulate if not take over many of America's most corrupt businesses.

And who gets to determine what corruption is? Where does the government draw the line? If there is no protection and a company can be arbitrarily taken over, who would start their own business or take the risks that make America the economic powerhouse it is today?

That the rich be progressively taxed.

To what purpose? The money from the rich is already in the economy. You just don't see it in your own pocket. It's being invested in businesses nationwide, fueling the economy and making the gears of the machine turn. Taxing them won't do a thing besides make them take their money and run over to some foreign country so that their money can stimulate THEIR economy.

That the poor, especially children, are given a chance with better education programs and services. Et cetera...

Out of my pocket? Why? My dad came from nothing and worked hard to put me through school. He was smart and successful and made it to upper middle class status by himself, so I didn't qualify for any government aid in terms of tuition. Why should I use my tax dollars to help poor kids who aren't any more deserving than myself or my father?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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11/30/2009 6:14:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/30/2009 5:51:57 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Also, Kleptin, you didn't respond to "Not to mention, the people at the top one percent get to make the laws deciding how to distribute the wealth. When's the last time you heard a small business or a poor individual bribing congress?"

You're basically implying that it is wrong for a rich man to tell the government what to do with his money.

If you're rich enough to buy a senator, or several senators, then you DESERVE to have a stronger voice in what goes on with your money. Their money is invested in American banks and American businesses and American citizens.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.