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Standards of fashion & beauty for women suck

rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/5/2013 1:06:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Speaking as a man, I think it is ridiculous that women in modern western society are implicitly expected to shave legs and armpits, wear bras, wear makeup when dressing up, wear jewelry, wear heels to appear formal and sexy, etc. Some women do not do these things, but many of them face a lot of disapproval or discomfort from other people for doing so.

Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed). That said though, women, in order to appear acceptable for work, interviews, dating, etc, have to do all kinds of crazy things to their bodies and spend all kids of money on frequently uncomfortable clothes, cosmetics, and accessories that men (especially straight men outside of certain industries like entertainment), do not need to. The aspect of second-wave feminism that rebelled against these unfair double standards of appearance seems to be dead in mainstream culture. Even though I am a man, that really bothers me. I guess it because my mom raised me to really dislike the ridiculous standards of feminine beauty.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/5/2013 1:22:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:15:23 PM, drafterman wrote:
You're probably going to have to shorten that for it to work as a pick-up line at the coffee shop.

No need, considering I'm married to another man.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/5/2013 1:36:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:22:19 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/5/2013 1:15:23 PM, drafterman wrote:
You're probably going to have to shorten that for it to work as a pick-up line at the coffee shop.

No need, considering I'm married to another man.

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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/5/2013 1:39:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:06:53 PM, rockwater wrote:
Speaking as a man, I think it is ridiculous that women in modern western society are implicitly expected to shave legs and armpits, wear bras, wear makeup when dressing up, wear jewelry, wear heels to appear formal and sexy, etc. Some women do not do these things, but many of them face a lot of disapproval or discomfort from other people for doing so.

I fail to see where the problem is. Either people can choose to conform to societal standards, or they can choose not to. The choice is theirs. Is it fair that society judges them for breaking the norm? Yes -as fair as anything else in this world. I say this as a gay guy.

Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed).

Are you kidding me? The options for women in formal wear are vastly more diverse than men. Men wear tuxedos (which are miserable to have on) and black ties with very shiny, uncomfortable shoes. Women can choose from any number of ten thousand or more dresses in different sizes, shapes, fits and colors. A tuxedo is a tuxedo, whether it comes from Brooks Brothers, Savile Row or Armani.

That said though, women, in order to appear acceptable for work, interviews, dating, etc, have to do all kinds of crazy things to their bodies and spend all kids of money on frequently uncomfortable clothes, cosmetics, and accessories that men (especially straight men outside of certain industries like entertainment), do not need to.

And yet, to work in such an industry is a choice. Women remain free to choose to work in an industry where they may dress as they please. Btw, too many accessories in the workplace can be very harmful to career advancement prospects. Both men and women are expected to, in a professional environment, dress professionally.

The aspect of second-wave feminism that rebelled against these unfair double standards of appearance seems to be dead in mainstream culture. Even though I am a man, that really bothers me. I guess it because my mom raised me to really dislike the ridiculous standards of feminine beauty.

Second wave feminism defined female worth by measuring it against that of men, which had the ironic effect of making feminists look absurd. Third wave feminism less so, however.
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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7/5/2013 1:47:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:39:14 PM, YYW wrote:


Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed).

Are you kidding me? The options for women in formal wear are vastly more diverse than men. Men wear tuxedos (which are miserable to have on) and black ties with very shiny, uncomfortable shoes. Women can choose from any number of ten thousand or more dresses in different sizes, shapes, fits and colors. A tuxedo is a tuxedo, whether it comes from Brooks Brothers, Savile Row or Armani.

I think you're actually agreeing with rockwater here. The parenthetical indefinite pronoun was referring to men, saying that THEY (men) have fewer options in formal wear (the implication therefore that women have more diverse options).
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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/5/2013 1:49:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:47:05 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/5/2013 1:39:14 PM, YYW wrote:


Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed).

Are you kidding me? The options for women in formal wear are vastly more diverse than men. Men wear tuxedos (which are miserable to have on) and black ties with very shiny, uncomfortable shoes. Women can choose from any number of ten thousand or more dresses in different sizes, shapes, fits and colors. A tuxedo is a tuxedo, whether it comes from Brooks Brothers, Savile Row or Armani.


I think you're actually agreeing with rockwater here. The parenthetical indefinite pronoun was referring to men, saying that THEY (men) have fewer options in formal wear (the implication therefore that women have more diverse options).

Shit, I just saw that. Oh well...

(I just woke up, btw.)
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/5/2013 5:02:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree with the OP. On my phone so I can't really elaborate the way I'd like to. One sucky standard is women with naturally curly hair have pressure to wear their hair straight or 'put away' (ie. Buns) in order to be viewed as "professional" in the workplace.
yang.
YYW
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7/5/2013 5:03:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 5:02:58 PM, tulle wrote:
I agree with the OP. On my phone so I can't really elaborate the way I'd like to. One sucky standard is women with naturally curly hair have pressure to wear their hair straight or 'put away' (ie. Buns) in order to be viewed as "professional" in the workplace.

Really? I've never heard of that...
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/5/2013 5:18:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When i say curly I'm talking about afros. I certainly could never wear my hair in its natural state when i worked at a bank. Even when it was blown out (not flat ironed) my female superior (black woman) told me "whats up with your hair? Do something with it."

And many black woman would never wear their real hair in its natural state in public, let alone to a job interview or in a professional workplace.
yang.
YYW
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7/5/2013 5:25:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 5:18:47 PM, tulle wrote:
When i say curly I'm talking about afros. I certainly could never wear my hair in its natural state when i worked at a bank. Even when it was blown out (not flat ironed) my female superior (black woman) told me "whats up with your hair? Do something with it."

And many black woman would never wear their real hair in its natural state in public, let alone to a job interview or in a professional workplace.

Why do you think that is? I find it pretty surprising. I guess it's different in the university work environment too...
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/5/2013 5:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Im not really sure. We're just brought up to believe that our hair is not presentable the way it is. Things are changing now, especially with my generation and more people refusing to chemically straighten. Despite the dangers of chemical straighteners (its literally putting a weak hair remover on your head) some people just really believe that naturally curly (afro-y) hair is unacceptable.
yang.
YYW
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7/5/2013 5:56:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 5:34:37 PM, tulle wrote:
Im not really sure. We're just brought up to believe that our hair is not presentable the way it is.

I don't know why...

Things are changing now, especially with my generation and more people refusing to chemically straighten. Despite the dangers of chemical straighteners (its literally putting a weak hair remover on your head) some people just really believe that naturally curly (afro-y) hair is unacceptable.

That's kind of weird. I never do anything to my hair to make it acceptable other than style it with my hands when I get out of the shower... I don't know why it should be any different for anyone else.
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/5/2013 6:06:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you're really interested...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Not sure if this link will work from my phone but you can google "Gabby Douglas hair" and sadly, tons of stories come up.

http://m.washingtonpost.com...

I think this blog post sums it up quite nicely:
http://www.hellonegro.com...
yang.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/5/2013 10:11:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:39:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/5/2013 1:06:53 PM, rockwater wrote:
Speaking as a man, I think it is ridiculous that women in modern western society are implicitly expected to shave legs and armpits, wear bras, wear makeup when dressing up, wear jewelry, wear heels to appear formal and sexy, etc. Some women do not do these things, but many of them face a lot of disapproval or discomfort from other people for doing so.

I fail to see where the problem is. Either people can choose to conform to societal standards, or they can choose not to. The choice is theirs. Is it fair that society judges them for breaking the norm? Yes -as fair as anything else in this world. I say this as a gay guy.

Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed).

Are you kidding me? The options for women in formal wear are vastly more diverse than men. Men wear tuxedos (which are miserable to have on) and black ties with very shiny, uncomfortable shoes. Women can choose from any number of ten thousand or more dresses in different sizes, shapes, fits and colors. A tuxedo is a tuxedo, whether it comes from Brooks Brothers, Savile Row or Armani.

That said though, women, in order to appear acceptable for work, interviews, dating, etc, have to do all kinds of crazy things to their bodies and spend all kids of money on frequently uncomfortable clothes, cosmetics, and accessories that men (especially straight men outside of certain industries like entertainment), do not need to.

And yet, to work in such an industry is a choice. Women remain free to choose to work in an industry where they may dress as they please. Btw, too many accessories in the workplace can be very harmful to career advancement prospects. Both men and women are expected to, in a professional environment, dress professionally.

The aspect of second-wave feminism that rebelled against these unfair double standards of appearance seems to be dead in mainstream culture. Even though I am a man, that really bothers me. I guess it because my mom raised me to really dislike the ridiculous standards of feminine beauty.

Second wave feminism defined female worth by measuring it against that of men, which had the ironic effect of making feminists look absurd. Third wave feminism less so, however.

As has been said, what I meant was that for formalwear men have much fewer options than women.

As for second wave feminism, it was limited and imperfect in its aspirations, but it did emphasize quite nicely the absurdity of all the expectations of female appearance compared with the much easier standards for acceptability of male appearance in public. I meant in no way that second wave feminism was more enlightened than third wave feminism. My mom was definitely second wave so that is what I grew up with.

I totally disagree that women are free to dress however they want and can just stay away from parts of society that impose unfair expectations on them. As minors many girls are subject to the expectations of their parents and culture. Even in adulthood, unless a woman is wealthy enough to live and work wherever she wants, your average woman needs to confirm to all kinds of ridiculous standards to get a decent job - and if she were not to conform to society's expectations regarding appearance she would also severely limit her options in terms of a mate, even among supposedly "enlightened" partners.

I just find the idea of shaving body hair, makeup, high heels, etc, all absurd, uncomfortable, and unattractive. If a woman likes them, more power to her. But the fact that society expects these aspects if appearance from most women is unfair and wrong.
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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7/5/2013 10:16:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 6:06:32 PM, tulle wrote:
If you're really interested...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Not sure if this link will work from my phone but you can google "Gabby Douglas hair" and sadly, tons of stories come up.

http://m.washingtonpost.com...

I think this blog post sums it up quite nicely:
http://www.hellonegro.com...

I never realized that this was such an issue...
Tsar of DDO
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/6/2013 12:15:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 10:16:33 PM, YYW wrote:

I never realized that this was such an issue...

Yah, most people don't.

I'm impressed with the OP. It's hard to see things from a perspective you've never had to endure.

I first posted in this thread after spending hours and hours today doing just about everything he described. I've done my nails 3 times in the past 2 days. Why? Lol I'll be the first to admit I spend wayyyy too much time and money on beauty. Skin, hair, makeup, clothes, grooming, EVERYTHING we do to impress other people. It's ridiculous.
yang.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/6/2013 12:34:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 12:15:14 AM, tulle wrote:
At 7/5/2013 10:16:33 PM, YYW wrote:

I never realized that this was such an issue...

Yah, most people don't.

I'm impressed with the OP. It's hard to see things from a perspective you've never had to endure.

I first posted in this thread after spending hours and hours today doing just about everything he described. I've done my nails 3 times in the past 2 days. Why? Lol I'll be the first to admit I spend wayyyy too much time and money on beauty. Skin, hair, makeup, clothes, grooming, EVERYTHING we do to impress other people. It's ridiculous.

I'd be pretty shocked if men actually cared about the color of women's nail. Maybe girls judge other girls over this, but its hardly that amazing.

Not going to say that a women doesn't have to wear make-up and stuff to look pretty for men, but there's marginal returns on the more stuff you do to look good and in some cases a negative return.

But then again, not sure how other women judge one another.
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darkkermit
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7/6/2013 12:37:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Take for example this girl. I'd say she's incredibly hot. However, her make-up tutorials and hair tutorials are very short showing that she doesn't put too much time into looking good (although not total zero effort).
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/6/2013 12:46:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lmfao @ that first video!! That's hilarious and awesome.

It's not really colour I was going for, but a clear nail hardener to prevent them from breaking :/ I need longer nails to make my hands more feminine lol...

Yeah, a case could be made that women are probably judging each other more harshly than men are judging women.

Re: the girl you posted, like you said she was already hot pre-makeup. Some girls are just not naturally gorgeous.
yang.
CanWeKnow
Posts: 217
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7/6/2013 3:27:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 12:46:49 AM, tulle wrote:
Lmfao @ that first video!! That's hilarious and awesome.

It's not really colour I was going for, but a clear nail hardener to prevent them from breaking :/ I need longer nails to make my hands more feminine lol...

Yeah, a case could be made that women are probably judging each other more harshly than men are judging women.

Re: the girl you posted, like you said she was already hot pre-makeup. Some girls are just not naturally gorgeous.

I just want to know, why don't women hold men to higher standards?

In S. Korea men are expected to keep themselves groomed pretty well. Some of them even get perms (whaaaat?).

I would be a liar if I said I didn't trim my eyebrows, use skin care products, cut my own hair, keep my nails clean and trimmed, make sure I smell acceptable before leaving the house, import my hair gel from Japan, pick my outfits carefully, and even wear makeup for semi-special occasions and in order to cover up bad acne/scars.

They aren't for purely vain reasons either. A man who looks like he takes care of himself projects a professional image that people take seriously. It's important to be heard if you have something to say.

I can recognize that beauty is not as important as personality, but I'm not going to pretend I would ever date someone I thought was unattractive.

If I expect my woman to make herself look nice then I should try my best to fit her desires as well.I couldn't become Mr. Lumberjack for her, but it wouldn't bother me one bit to skip shaving, let my eyebrows grow bushy, and stop caring about other minor cosmetic things.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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7/6/2013 8:06:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
@canweknow (sorry, it's a pain to quote on my phone)

Why women don't hold men to higher standards---beauty is not seen as particularly masculine. Guys can, for the most part, roll out of bed exactly as they rolled into it and look the same. Maybe it's because they just have better pretty genes (eg. Thicker, longer, darker eyelashes than women) and part of it is probably due to girls being raised from a young age to look pretty.

Re: the grooming you do, it's probably more important to some girls than others. I, for example, have the urge to vomit when I see a guy with long nails, so they have to be always trimmed lol. In terms of professionalism, I can see that too. I think the difference over here is that men are expected to look clean and professional without looking like they did certain things to get it. Trimming/cutting your hair/beard would be the norm, but trimming your eyebrows (if obvious) may appear feminine.

Re: your last paragraph, I like you! Too many guys expect their girls to be perfect all the time without making the same effort themselves.
yang.
Cermank
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7/6/2013 8:27:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is true. However, I'd say I'll agree with YYW with this one- although society has a ridiculous standard for women's beauty, a woman has a choice of conforming to that standard.

The universal social rule is that a person will interact with you if it is profitable for him to. Conforming to a social standard will give you that one up in social interactions, but its still your personality that will matter ultimately.

It's the same for men.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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7/6/2013 9:39:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/5/2013 1:39:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/5/2013 1:06:53 PM, rockwater wrote:
Men have some unfair expectations of their appearance, too (they have much fewer options in formal wear, and ties, in addition to being uncomfortable, are breeding grounds for germs since they are almost never washed).

Are you kidding me? The options for women in formal wear are vastly more diverse than men. Men wear tuxedos (which are miserable to have on) and black ties with very shiny, uncomfortable shoes. Women can choose from any number of ten thousand or more dresses in different sizes, shapes, fits and colors. A tuxedo is a tuxedo, whether it comes from Brooks Brothers, Savile Row or Armani.


I actually love wearing suits and tuxedos. I think they're comfortable and stylish. Though the tie can get a little annoying after several hours of wearing it.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
CanWeKnow
Posts: 217
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7/6/2013 9:19:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As a man, it's hard to find that happy medium between ungroomed and too-groomed that is desired.

Similarly I think it's funny that a woman can be so groomed that they lose their human element. Biologically one would not desire to reproduce with something not human, this is why girls who wear way too much makeup are criticized. The same goes for girls who are too skinny.

Attractiveness really comes down to aesthetics and appearance of health. A woman who appears maximally healthy and ideal for reproduction will be more attractive than the same woman who appears unhealthy.

So, instead of campaigning for Beauty we should campaign for Optimal Health and Optimal Aesthetic.

This works wonderfully because not only will we have more beautiful women, they will have better lives since they are healthy!
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/7/2013 7:51:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Fool: You don't have live up to expectations.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/7/2013 7:52:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/7/2013 7:51:31 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: You don't have to live up to expectations.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL