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Children, sex change, and changing one's mind

rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/8/2013 3:14:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If a transsexual who requires sex reassignment surgery as part of their medical treatment receives it before puberty, the chances of their being able to successfully transition and "pass" for the opposite sex in society increase greatly. Doctors are now diagnosing gender dysphoria in prepubescent children and there are parents and transsexual children who both want the surgery to be done before puberty. I have only heard a few stories of people who regretted having sex reassignment surgery and they all had it as adults. What concerns me is that children are not allowed to give consent to have sex, not are their parents able to for them, so is it possible that they might not know yet whether their gender dysphoria requires sex reassignment surgery? Am I making an appropriate comparison here?

Note that I am fully aware that not all transsexuals require or want sex reassignment surgery. I try to be as supportive of trans and other LGBT rights issues as possible so the fact that this issue confuses me makes me want to want to discuss it.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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7/8/2013 3:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/8/2013 3:14:31 PM, rockwater wrote:
If a transsexual who requires sex reassignment surgery as part of their medical treatment receives it before puberty, the chances of their being able to successfully transition and "pass" for the opposite sex in society increase greatly. Doctors are now diagnosing gender dysphoria in prepubescent children and there are parents and transsexual children who both want the surgery to be done before puberty. I have only heard a few stories of people who regretted having sex reassignment surgery and they all had it as adults. What concerns me is that children are not allowed to give consent to have sex, not are their parents able to for them, so is it possible that they might not know yet whether their gender dysphoria requires sex reassignment surgery? Am I making an appropriate comparison here?

Note that I am fully aware that not all transsexuals require or want sex reassignment surgery. I try to be as supportive of trans and other LGBT rights issues as possible so the fact that this issue confuses me makes me want to want to discuss it.

I'm not sure it's an appropriate comparison, but the core issue you're talking about of consent is incredibly important. In the absence of objective proof of gender dysphoria (i.e. brain scans, or genetic testing), and with the sometimes plastic nature of sexuality and gender identity with kids, I think it's a very sticky wicket to let kids make such permanent decisions.
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Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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7/9/2013 11:52:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Cases like this are popping up everywhere recently, twenty years ago there was nothing like children changing sex.
Turn around, go back.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/9/2013 12:40:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:52:30 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Cases like this are popping up everywhere recently, twenty years ago there was nothing like children changing sex.

But there have been children with gender dysphoria Killing themselves due to the pain of living in a body different from their gender identity (and the extreme hatred many experience) for a very long time. There are not that many cases of children having sex reassignment surgery. There is part of the transgender rights community that believes that prepubescent sex reassignment surgery should be a possibility if supported by doctors, the Oarets, and the children, and only after a whole lot of screening and other therapy. I am just not sure if children, even 13 year old ones, are self aware and independent enough to make this decision. I must reiterate that many transgender persons do not have or want sex reassignment surgery. This thread is about determine whether we can know if children are among those transgender persons who do need surgery.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/9/2013 2:50:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/8/2013 3:14:31 PM, rockwater wrote:
If a transsexual who requires sex reassignment surgery as part of their medical treatment receives it before puberty, the chances of their being able to successfully transition and "pass" for the opposite sex in society increase greatly. Doctors are now diagnosing gender dysphoria in prepubescent children and there are parents and transsexual children who both want the surgery to be done before puberty. I have only heard a few stories of people who regretted having sex reassignment surgery and they all had it as adults. What concerns me is that children are not allowed to give consent to have sex, not are their parents able to for them, so is it possible that they might not know yet whether their gender dysphoria requires sex reassignment surgery? Am I making an appropriate comparison here?

Note that I am fully aware that not all transsexuals require or want sex reassignment surgery. I try to be as supportive of trans and other LGBT rights issues as possible so the fact that this issue confuses me makes me want to want to discuss it.

You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?

I think your confused because your reasoning is based on a desire to be supportive of LGBT rights and that is in conflict with the conclusion that supporting this practice would be bad.

My personal suggestion is that you make your desires and reasons distinct. If your desires are good on their own then they will be supported by reason... Someone should not support a desire to such a degree that they intend to inflict harm on others by its support.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/9/2013 3:38:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 2:50:58 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/8/2013 3:14:31 PM, rockwater wrote:
If a transsexual who requires sex reassignment surgery as part of their medical treatment receives it before puberty, the chances of their being able to successfully transition and "pass" for the opposite sex in society increase greatly. Doctors are now diagnosing gender dysphoria in prepubescent children and there are parents and transsexual children who both want the surgery to be done before puberty. I have only heard a few stories of people who regretted having sex reassignment surgery and they all had it as adults. What concerns me is that children are not allowed to give consent to have sex, not are their parents able to for them, so is it possible that they might not know yet whether their gender dysphoria requires sex reassignment surgery? Am I making an appropriate comparison here?

Note that I am fully aware that not all transsexuals require or want sex reassignment surgery. I try to be as supportive of trans and other LGBT rights issues as possible so the fact that this issue confuses me makes me want to want to discuss it.

You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?

I think your confused because your reasoning is based on a desire to be supportive of LGBT rights and that is in conflict with the conclusion that supporting this practice would be bad.

My personal suggestion is that you make your desires and reasons distinct. If your desires are good on their own then they will be supported by reason... Someone should not support a desire to such a degree that they intend to inflict harm on others by its support.

Sex reassignment surgery for children is not my personal desire - it is the stated desire of certain transgender rights groups and some parents, children, and doctors. It is a contentious issue and that is why I brought it up at DDO. I am not sure what the right thing to do is.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/9/2013 3:52:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 3:38:53 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/9/2013 2:50:58 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/8/2013 3:14:31 PM, rockwater wrote:
If a transsexual who requires sex reassignment surgery as part of their medical treatment receives it before puberty, the chances of their being able to successfully transition and "pass" for the opposite sex in society increase greatly. Doctors are now diagnosing gender dysphoria in prepubescent children and there are parents and transsexual children who both want the surgery to be done before puberty. I have only heard a few stories of people who regretted having sex reassignment surgery and they all had it as adults. What concerns me is that children are not allowed to give consent to have sex, not are their parents able to for them, so is it possible that they might not know yet whether their gender dysphoria requires sex reassignment surgery? Am I making an appropriate comparison here?

Note that I am fully aware that not all transsexuals require or want sex reassignment surgery. I try to be as supportive of trans and other LGBT rights issues as possible so the fact that this issue confuses me makes me want to want to discuss it.

You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?

I think your confused because your reasoning is based on a desire to be supportive of LGBT rights and that is in conflict with the conclusion that supporting this practice would be bad.

My personal suggestion is that you make your desires and reasons distinct. If your desires are good on their own then they will be supported by reason... Someone should not support a desire to such a degree that they intend to inflict harm on others by its support.

Sex reassignment surgery for children is not my personal desire - it is the stated desire of certain transgender rights groups and some parents, children, and doctors. It is a contentious issue and that is why I brought it up at DDO. I am not sure what the right thing to do is.

That's because your confusing terms.

Transgender isn't the same thing as transexual. Your using the objective ambiguity of the one to support the subjectivity of the other.

Transgender people are biological disasters where gender is ambiguous. There is no objective ambiguity in gender dysphoria. It is certain what gender they are. A transexual is not a born condition. It's one where a procedure has transcended sex.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/9/2013 4:00:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, if you do your research then you should find that transgender people don't like to be associated as either homosexual or transexual... That was my conclusion anyway.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/10/2013 12:27:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 4:00:02 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Also, if you do your research then you should find that transgender people don't like to be associated as either homosexual or transexual... That was my conclusion anyway.

From dictionary.com:

Transgender: a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

Transsexual:

1. a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2. a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

From the UK's National Health Service:

Gender Dysphoria:
Gender dysphoria is a condition in which a person feels that there is a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the infant. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with, or feels themselves to be.
For example, a person may have the anatomy of a man, but gender identify as a woman. Others do not describe themselves as either male or female, or may describe themselves as agender.

This mismatch can cause feelings of discomfort that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.

The condition is also sometimes known as:
gender identity disorder
gender incongruence
transgenderism

Some people with gender dysphoria have a strong and persistent desire to live according to their gender identity, rather than their biological sex. These people are sometimes called transsexual people, or trans people. Some trans people undergo treatment so that their physical appearance is more consitent with their gender identity.

(End quote)

Source: http://www.nhs.uk...

Transsexuals are a subset of transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a medical term used to describe some transgender people but it is not a medical illness. Not all people with gender dysphoria are transsexuals.

Now that we've gotten the terms clear, can we go on to discuss those children who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria and want sex reassignment surgery and those doctors, parents, children, etc., who think they should be able to have it before puberty. I am undecided on this topic.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 2:20:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 12:27:38 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/9/2013 4:00:02 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Also, if you do your research then you should find that transgender people don't like to be associated as either homosexual or transexual... That was my conclusion anyway.

From dictionary.com:

Transgender: a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

Transsexual:

1. a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2. a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

From the UK's National Health Service:

Gender Dysphoria:
Gender dysphoria is a condition in which a person feels that there is a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the infant. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with, or feels themselves to be.
For example, a person may have the anatomy of a man, but gender identify as a woman. Others do not describe themselves as either male or female, or may describe themselves as agender.

This mismatch can cause feelings of discomfort that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.

The condition is also sometimes known as:
gender identity disorder
gender incongruence
transgenderism

Some people with gender dysphoria have a strong and persistent desire to live according to their gender identity, rather than their biological sex. These people are sometimes called transsexual people, or trans people. Some trans people undergo treatment so that their physical appearance is more consitent with their gender identity.

(End quote)

Source: http://www.nhs.uk...

Transsexuals are a subset of transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a medical term used to describe some transgender people but it is not a medical illness. Not all people with gender dysphoria are transsexuals.

Now that we've gotten the terms clear, can we go on to discuss those children who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria and want sex reassignment surgery and those doctors, parents, children, etc., who think they should be able to have it before puberty. I am undecided on this topic.

when others use the word transgender, such as the medical community. what they mean is hermaphrodite and your research is therefore becoming confused. I'm not criticizing your use of the word but the confusion of your research.

For example, it may very well be that Queen Elizabeth was transgender which has been speculated but that doesn't mean she was gay or confused by her sexual identity.

I've tried to be very careful to interpret exactly what you mean so that I can address the meaning of your argument. I don't care what words you use.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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7/10/2013 2:34:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?

Frankness wasn't the problem exactly. I believe the point of the thread was to investigate the points of consent and how they would apply to transsexual minors who might want sex reassignment surgery. So then yer problem lies in mischaracterization.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 2:53:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 2:34:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?

Frankness wasn't the problem exactly. I believe the point of the thread was to investigate the points of consent and how they would apply to transsexual minors who might want sex reassignment surgery. So then yer problem lies in mischaracterization.

Isn't it common ground that children can't make permanent life altering decisions?
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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7/10/2013 3:01:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 2:53:53 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:34:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?

Frankness wasn't the problem exactly. I believe the point of the thread was to investigate the points of consent and how they would apply to transsexual minors who might want sex reassignment surgery. So then yer problem lies in mischaracterization.

Isn't it common ground that children can't make permanent life altering decisions?

The OP makes no mention of children being able to make the decision on their own.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 3:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just to make myself perfectly clear, I am in support of creating less ambiguity in those who are objectively beyond the normal range to within that range... I am talking about transgender as in hermaphrodites. I believe this is totally different because it reduces ambiguity while a sex change creates it.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 3:41:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 3:01:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:53:53 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:34:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?

Frankness wasn't the problem exactly. I believe the point of the thread was to investigate the points of consent and how they would apply to transsexual minors who might want sex reassignment surgery. So then yer problem lies in mischaracterization.

Isn't it common ground that children can't make permanent life altering decisions?

The OP makes no mention of children being able to make the decision on their own.

If they aren't making the decision on their own then they're not making the decision.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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7/10/2013 4:27:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 3:41:42 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/10/2013 3:01:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:53:53 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:34:25 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 7/10/2013 2:25:54 PM, llamainmypocket wrote:
Was i too frank when I stated, "You're proposing that we diagnose gender dysphoria in children and perform sex reassignment surgery on them by educated guess so that some can pass more easily as transexual?"

This really is your question and you see nothing wrong with it?

Frankness wasn't the problem exactly. I believe the point of the thread was to investigate the points of consent and how they would apply to transsexual minors who might want sex reassignment surgery. So then yer problem lies in mischaracterization.

Isn't it common ground that children can't make permanent life altering decisions?

The OP makes no mention of children being able to make the decision on their own.

If they aren't making the decision on their own then they're not making the decision.

Okay...
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 5:02:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It does appear as though I confused Intersex with Transgender.

Criticism of research is invalid.

Furthermore, crap. :-)