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Problems with interracial marriage

Skynet
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7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm white and really conservative, so you could guess where this is going....

I'm white, and my wife is black. We love each other like crazy, and I only have ever heard of one person having a problem with us being together because of racial baloney.
The problem is not with each other, but how we think we have/have been treated in the past because of our individual "race". She's had to put up with people distrusting her because of her appearance, piers leaving her out, boyfriends' parents telling their sons she can't be brought into their house, and cousins telling her she's "not black enough" because she doesn't use ax and ask interchangeably, etc.

I grew up in a very small town, and didn't really have any real contact with black people until high school, and then not even on a regular basis. All my known ancestors (Going back to the 1600's with church baptism records recovered in Europe) were more likely to be enslaved peasants than slave owners or traders. None of my known ancestors ever lived in a slave state after immigrating to the U.S., nor drove Indians from their land, nor brainwashed Hopi children at vile Catholic missions.

But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions. In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at. In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

The impression I was left with was that I was expected to have nothing to be proud of because of the identity I was told I had. That identity always frustrated me because I had very little Dutch or Irish or other British Islander in me, and the older customs of many of my neighbors were different enough that I didn't totally fit in. Friends looked at me funny because I didn't have Dutch Christian Reformed Catechism, or know the wonders of homemade oliebollen. (If you mention oliebollen to a Dutchman, he'll go nuts. Try it, seriously.)
And I certainly wasn't Catholic or Spanish, and had nothing to do with the Conquistadors. Take into account all the history of Europe, and I have to conclude the race "white," is a misnomer, and the same is obviously true of "black". No one talks very much about how our first black President is really less than 1/4 black. But there he is, supposedly "black" as ever, and it really really matters to a lot of people that is that way.

But here are my wife and I, happy with eachother, but bitter about who we are told we are. We talk about these issues, and argue, not at eachother, but in vain past eachother, hoping the "other" we see in the eachother will be an emissary from their race and explain what all that abuse and ignorance was all about all those years growing up, and occasionally today.

But we have few answers for eachother, because we're both victims of race baiters and the politically correct who claim to champion justice and an end to ignorance, but only induce bitterness in two people who just want to love eachother, start a family, and leave someone else's bygone sins to be forgotten.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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7/10/2013 12:20:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wut
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/10/2013 12:27:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 12:04:21 AM, Wnope wrote:
Somehow always I knew that, when Skynet finally came, it'd vote Republican.

lol. Untrue, and completely off-topic, but funny nonetheless.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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7/10/2013 11:06:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions.

Well, it's all true. Sorry. Regardless of whether your ancestors participated or not, Western civilizations did do all those things.

In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at.

The reason there's no White History Month is because people usually don't ignore things done by whites. Indeed, history generally focuses on them to an outsized degree. That's slowly changing, though.

In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

Well, that happened.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/10/2013 11:34:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 11:06:01 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions.

Well, it's all true. Sorry. Regardless of whether your ancestors participated or not, Western civilizations did do all those things.

In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at.

The reason there's no White History Month is because people usually don't ignore things done by whites. Indeed, history generally focuses on them to an outsized degree. That's slowly changing, though.

In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

Well, that happened.

People like to harp on white people in this way because they're the majority and therefore the most relevant and easy to pick on.

Every society committed such atrocities. The Japanese did in WWII. The Mongols enslaved China for years back in the day. The Muslims conquered Spain and slaughtered Christians. The Macedonians flattened the Persian Empire under Alexander.

The pages of history are stained with blood. The strong survive, thrive and dominate and the weak get killed. It's nature.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/10/2013 3:46:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 11:06:01 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions.

Well, it's all true. Sorry. Regardless of whether your ancestors participated or not, Western civilizations did do all those things.

In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at.

The reason there's no White History Month is because people usually don't ignore things done by whites. Indeed, history generally focuses on them to an outsized degree. That's slowly changing, though.

In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

Well, that happened.

In no way am I denying that any of these things happened. And people who do bad things like that deserve blame, and it deserves being noted that these things happened.

But answer this: Why do so many people need to be lumped into a category they're not really a part of, then blamed for the actions of others decades before they were born? I'm not a Catholic missionary in the 1700's, a racist southern cop, a Conquistador, or Andrew Jackson, nor do I approve of their actions. But the net is widened to anyone who looks like them and who's ancestors came from the same continent, and implied they deserve some of the blame. Black and White is about 5% genetic and 95% social assumption. I don't blame anyone who looks black for beating that truck driver during the L.A. riots. It's the same thing! It's all bitterness that's eating up our country.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/10/2013 4:01:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 11:34:28 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/10/2013 11:06:01 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions.

Well, it's all true. Sorry. Regardless of whether your ancestors participated or not, Western civilizations did do all those things.

In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at.

The reason there's no White History Month is because people usually don't ignore things done by whites. Indeed, history generally focuses on them to an outsized degree. That's slowly changing, though.

In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

Well, that happened.

People like to harp on white people in this way because they're the majority and therefore the most relevant and easy to pick on.

Every society committed such atrocities. The Japanese did in WWII. The Mongols enslaved China for years back in the day. The Muslims conquered Spain and slaughtered Christians. The Macedonians flattened the Persian Empire under Alexander.

The pages of history are stained with blood. The strong survive, thrive and dominate and the weak get killed. It's nature.

Whiteness is not about being European or descending from European Colonial settlers. It is about not being one of those "other" races that the Europeans encountered in the Colonial era. There really is no white cultural heritage to speak of because whiteness is not based in culture - only ancestry and appearance. There are many European, North American, Australasian, South African, Latin American, etc, cultures that white people belong to and can and should be proud of, but white culture, if such a term exists, is nothing else other than the culture of not belonging to other races.

This might seem unfair, because people in the African and Asian Diasporas get to talk about such a thing as African/Black or Asian culture without it seeming controversial. This is because African and Asian identity is not based on rules of purity (or having an appearance that passes) in the way that White identity is. Think of it this way. A person can have only 1/4 African American ancestry and still identify as Black, not multiracial, just black. A person with only 1/4 European ancestry can identify as part white or multiracial, but not as just white. That person can claim to be just white, but unless his/her appearance passes as white, society will not view that person as unmixed white.

The problematic nature of White identity can often be lessened by referring to European ancestry instead (although some people with Middle Eastern and Central Asian ancestry identify as white). There is nothing purity-based or exclusive about celebrating European heritage. However, in the Western world, European culture has been dominant for so long that rather than celebrate European heritage it makes more sense (and seems less majoritarian) to celebrate English, Irish, German, Italian, Scots-Irish, etc, heritage rather than a generalized European heritage.

Now here is where I sympathize with some of the argument for "White History." Many people in the US, at least, are far removed from their ancestors who immigrated from Europe and might have little knowledge about what countries their ancestors even came from, and even if they do know where their ancestors came from, may not identify with that country's culture. Therefore, they identify their Ancestry as American rather than European, and to distinguish themselves from other races call themselves white. But what parts of the culture that developed in America, rather than in Europe, belong more to white people than to other races? White culture has been the culture of authority and of the mainstream for most of American history, so it was part of all American's culture. The culture of immigrants, American Indians, and The descendants of slaves, though, was not mainstream unless elements of it became absorbed into the mainstream culture, in which case those elements (but not the source culture) belonged to all Americans equally. Maybe the heritage of regions of the US could be sources of pride for these people, but regional heritage (such as Southern heritage) belongs to all inhabitants of that region and not just the white ones. This is where I think there can be more discussion.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 4:09:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Could be summed up as association errors. I'm allergic to oranges so eating them is bad and an orange is a fruit therefore fruit is bad.

Either the badness of fruit is limited to the parts which are oranges or it's illogical. If it's illogical then I must infer that a person who makes such an argument is a liar who simply hates fruit. :-)

Slavery was bad and slavery occurred at the hands of whites therefore whites are bad. Which whites? The ones which were involved in slavery... There's no reason to be offended unless you were involved.

If on the other hand, they really mean that all whites are bad then it's illogical and I must infer that the reason for such logic is based upon it's result... Possibly blame, pity, racism, hate, ect.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/10/2013 4:31:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 4:01:47 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 7/10/2013 11:34:28 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/10/2013 11:06:01 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions.

Well, it's all true. Sorry. Regardless of whether your ancestors participated or not, Western civilizations did do all those things.

In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at.

The reason there's no White History Month is because people usually don't ignore things done by whites. Indeed, history generally focuses on them to an outsized degree. That's slowly changing, though.

In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

Well, that happened.

People like to harp on white people in this way because they're the majority and therefore the most relevant and easy to pick on.

Every society committed such atrocities. The Japanese did in WWII. The Mongols enslaved China for years back in the day. The Muslims conquered Spain and slaughtered Christians. The Macedonians flattened the Persian Empire under Alexander.

The pages of history are stained with blood. The strong survive, thrive and dominate and the weak get killed. It's nature.

Whiteness is not about being European or descending from European Colonial settlers. It is about not being one of those "other" races that the Europeans encountered in the Colonial era. There really is no white cultural heritage to speak of because whiteness is not based in culture - only ancestry and appearance. There are many European, North American, Australasian, South African, Latin American, etc, cultures that white people belong to and can and should be proud of, but white culture, if such a term exists, is nothing else other than the culture of not belonging to other races.

It could be generalized and represented in a diverse manner which celebrates it's historical being. When I think of white culture I think of the beginning of civilization in Sumeria, judeo-christian And Muslim origins of religion, Greek intellectual enlightenment, the greatness of Rome, and a common love for macaroni&cheese(kidding).


This might seem unfair, because people in the African and Asian Diasporas get to talk about such a thing as African/Black or Asian culture without it seeming controversial. This is because African and Asian identity is not based on rules of purity (or having an appearance that passes) in the way that White identity is. Think of it this way. A person can have only 1/4 African American ancestry and still identify as Black, not multiracial, just black. A person with only 1/4 European ancestry can identify as part white or multiracial, but not as just white. That person can claim to be just white, but unless his/her appearance passes as white, society will not view that person as unmixed white.

It really depends on what they mean by Asian or black. Are Australian aborigines black? Are native Americans an Asian variant? I would say yes to both of those questions and I think they're are an reasonable classification.

The problematic nature of White identity can often be lessened by referring to European ancestry instead (although some people with Middle Eastern and Central Asian ancestry identify as white). There is nothing purity-based or exclusive about celebrating European heritage. However, in the Western world, European culture has been dominant for so long that rather than celebrate European heritage it makes more sense (and seems less majoritarian) to celebrate English, Irish, German, Italian, Scots-Irish, etc, heritage rather than a generalized European heritage.

I agree with this.

Now here is where I sympathize with some of the argument for "White History." Many people in the US, at least, are far removed from their ancestors who immigrated from Europe and might have little knowledge about what countries their ancestors even came from, and even if they do know where their ancestors came from, may not identify with that country's culture. Therefore, they identify their Ancestry as American rather than European, and to distinguish themselves from other races call themselves white. But what parts of the culture that developed in America, rather than in Europe, belong more to white people than to other races? White culture has been the culture of authority and of the mainstream for most of American history, so it was part of all American's culture. The culture of immigrants, American Indians, and The descendants of slaves, though, was not mainstream unless elements of it became absorbed into the mainstream culture, in which case those elements (but not the source culture) belonged to all Americans equally. Maybe the heritage of regions of the US could be sources of pride for these people, but regional heritage (such as Southern heritage) belongs to all inhabitants of that region and not just the white ones. This is where I think there can be more discussion.

I think the conclusion may be that we do celebrate white history but we generalize non-white history.
rross
Posts: 2,772
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7/10/2013 5:42:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nobody is free from culture and history. If you marry someone from exactly the same social group as yourself it may seem that way, but it's just an illusion. There's no default state of humanity.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/10/2013 10:34:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What about all the good things whites have done? Why must we be ashamed of the bad stuff whites have done, and have a collective guilt over that, but if whites have done good you don't claim credit for it because those were "individual achievements".
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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7/10/2013 10:38:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You and your wife are humans, that's all that matters, what your ancestors or hers did or did not doesn't matter, but what you do and how you take it does.

Your marriage even with a person from your own race and culture can still fail. and your marriage with the most different person can succeed.

The only issue is the lack of support from society, for if anything goes wrong between you people will put it on race or culture, and it doesn't have to be that!
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/10/2013 10:47:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And this is why I personally find collectivist thinking to in many ways be very immoral.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/10/2013 11:10:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 12:04:21 AM, Wnope wrote:
Somehow always I knew that, when Skynet finally came, it'd vote Republican.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is a republican, so this comment makes no sense. Unless you want skynet to take over.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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7/11/2013 6:06:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
I'm white and really conservative, so you could guess where this is going....

I'm white, and my wife is black. We love each other like crazy, and I only have ever heard of one person having a problem with us being together because of racial baloney.
The problem is not with each other, but how we think we have/have been treated in the past because of our individual "race". She's had to put up with people distrusting her because of her appearance, piers leaving her out, boyfriends' parents telling their sons she can't be brought into their house, and cousins telling her she's "not black enough" because she doesn't use ax and ask interchangeably, etc.

I grew up in a very small town, and didn't really have any real contact with black people until high school, and then not even on a regular basis. All my known ancestors (Going back to the 1600's with church baptism records recovered in Europe) were more likely to be enslaved peasants than slave owners or traders. None of my known ancestors ever lived in a slave state after immigrating to the U.S., nor drove Indians from their land, nor brainwashed Hopi children at vile Catholic missions.

But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions. In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at. In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

The impression I was left with was that I was expected to have nothing to be proud of because of the identity I was told I had. That identity always frustrated me because I had very little Dutch or Irish or other British Islander in me, and the older customs of many of my neighbors were different enough that I didn't totally fit in. Friends looked at me funny because I didn't have Dutch Christian Reformed Catechism, or know the wonders of homemade oliebollen. (If you mention oliebollen to a Dutchman, he'll go nuts. Try it, seriously.)
And I certainly wasn't Catholic or Spanish, and had nothing to do with the Conquistadors. Take into account all the history of Europe, and I have to conclude the race "white," is a misnomer, and the same is obviously true of "black". No one talks very much about how our first black President is really less than 1/4 black. But there he is, supposedly "black" as ever, and it really really matters to a lot of people that is that way.

But here are my wife and I, happy with eachother, but bitter about who we are told we are. We talk about these issues, and argue, not at eachother, but in vain past eachother, hoping the "other" we see in the eachother will be an emissary from their race and explain what all that abuse and ignorance was all about all those years growing up, and occasionally today.

But we have few answers for eachother, because we're both victims of race baiters and the politically correct who claim to champion justice and an end to ignorance, but only induce bitterness in two people who just want to love eachother, start a family, and leave someone else's bygone sins to be forgotten.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel bitter about what you were told you are. Both the people that committed the sins spoken of and the ones that spoke of them are in the past, when they were talking they were telling you who they are, not who you are. What you are talking about is then and now, which is to say there has been positive progress, that's a good thing, something to feel good about, bitterness about the past can be replaced with hope for the future. There's really nothing to be bitter about, certainly no reason to hold onto that bitterness.

You say you are just "two people who just want to love eachother, start a family, and leave someone else's bygone sins to be forgotten", well that is all it takes, turn away from the past, forget about it, look forward to the future to see where we are going.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/11/2013 8:51:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 10:34:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What about all the good things whites have done? Why must we be ashamed of the bad stuff whites have done, and have a collective guilt over that, but if whites have done good you don't claim credit for it because those were "individual achievements".



On individual achievement, when my wife and I were just dating, she turned to me and said "White people don't have much solidarity, do they?"
At the time I did not know what to say. "We" don't, and racial solidarity is an alien thing to me. In a white neighborhood, a white person is just as much a stranger as any other neighborhood. But she told me that she only really feels comfortable in black neighborhoods, and people there may not know each other, but will act as if they are all part of the same community. That's such a strange thing to witness or hear about. She's right, for the most part, "white people" have no solidarity, are all individuals, and not part of any collective. That was an alien concept for her when I explained it to her.

I think it goes back to how the majority of both groups got to America. My ancestors came here for freedom and to make a living for themselves and their family. Many of her's were brought here only by someone else's will, so they stuck together as an oppressed group, for the most part.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/11/2013 9:10:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 4:01:47 PM, rockwater wrote:


Whiteness is not about being European or descending from European Colonial settlers. It is about not being one of those "other" races that the Europeans encountered in the Colonial era. There really is no white cultural heritage to speak of because whiteness is not based in culture - only ancestry and appearance. There are many European, North American, Australasian, South African, Latin American, etc, cultures that white people belong to and can and should be proud of, but white culture, if such a term exists, is nothing else other than the culture of not belonging to other races.

This might seem unfair, because people in the African and Asian Diasporas get to talk about such a thing as African/Black or Asian culture without it seeming controversial. This is because African and Asian identity is not based on rules of purity (or having an appearance that passes) in the way that White identity is. Think of it this way. A person can have only 1/4 African American ancestry and still identify as Black, not multiracial, just black. A person with only 1/4 European ancestry can identify as part white or multiracial, but not as just white. That person can claim to be just white, but unless his/her appearance passes as white, society will not view that person as unmixed white.

The problematic nature of White identity can often be lessened by referring to European ancestry instead (although some people with Middle Eastern and Central Asian ancestry identify as white). There is nothing purity-based or exclusive about celebrating European heritage. However, in the Western world, European culture has been dominant for so long that rather than celebrate European heritage it makes more sense (and seems less majoritarian) to celebrate English, Irish, German, Italian, Scots-Irish, etc, heritage rather than a generalized European heritage.

Now here is where I sympathize with some of the argument for "White History." Many people in the US, at least, are far removed from their ancestors who immigrated from Europe and might have little knowledge about what countries their ancestors even came from, and even if they do know where their ancestors came from, may not identify with that country's culture. Therefore, they identify their Ancestry as American rather than European, and to distinguish themselves from other races call themselves white. But what parts of the culture that developed in America, rather than in Europe, belong more to white people than to other races? White culture has been the culture of authority and of the mainstream for most of American history, so it was part of all American's culture. The culture of immigrants, American Indians, and The descendants of slaves, though, was not mainstream unless elements of it became absorbed into the mainstream culture, in which case those elements (but not the source culture) belonged to all Americans equally. Maybe the heritage of regions of the US could be sources of pride for these people, but regional heritage (such as Southern heritage) belongs to all inhabitants of that region and not just the white ones. This is where I think there can be more discussion.

You've got ideas that sound effective at building cultural pride for people who feel they aren't allowed to have it, but I think it can be dangerous. I'd rather see people identify with being U.S. citizens more, (studying up on what that really means, too) and leave the other cultural stuff as secondary.

From Washington's Farewell Address:
"The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles."

Now that we don't all have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles, disputes like this spring up. As an effective Union, we need to be more American than anything else.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/11/2013 9:22:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/11/2013 8:51:05 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 7/10/2013 10:34:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What about all the good things whites have done? Why must we be ashamed of the bad stuff whites have done, and have a collective guilt over that, but if whites have done good you don't claim credit for it because those were "individual achievements".



On individual achievement, when my wife and I were just dating, she turned to me and said "White people don't have much solidarity, do they?"
At the time I did not know what to say. "We" don't, and racial solidarity is an alien thing to me. In a white neighborhood, a white person is just as much a stranger as any other neighborhood. But she told me that she only really feels comfortable in black neighborhoods, and people there may not know each other, but will act as if they are all part of the same community. That's such a strange thing to witness or hear about. She's right, for the most part, "white people" have no solidarity, are all individuals, and not part of any collective. That was an alien concept for her when I explained it to her.

I think it goes back to how the majority of both groups got to America. My ancestors came here for freedom and to make a living for themselves and their family. Many of her's were brought here only by someone else's will, so they stuck together as an oppressed group, for the most part.

I think education and society has made it so that white people are made guilty to be racially proud or to hold in-group favoritism towards blacks, while it is encouraged for blacks and other minorities. For example, the white student union on some college campus was hugely controversial and has created an uproar on campus, making the founder the most hated person on campus and given death threats constantly even though there's also a black student union.

It is pretty obvious though that people do hold onto to their race quite strongly though. I remember, for a friend's birthday celebration, who was black, that I was the only white person there and for a black friend's graduation party there were only 2 other white people besides myself (to be fair a lot of people there was family though).
Open borders debate:
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Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/11/2013 9:29:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/11/2013 6:06:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:

I'm not sure I understand why you feel bitter about what you were told you are. Both the people that committed the sins spoken of and the ones that spoke of them are in the past, when they were talking they were telling you who they are, not who you are. What you are talking about is then and now, which is to say there has been positive progress, that's a good thing, something to feel good about, bitterness about the past can be replaced with hope for the future. There's really nothing to be bitter about, certainly no reason to hold onto that bitterness.

You say you are just "two people who just want to love eachother, start a family, and leave someone else's bygone sins to be forgotten", well that is all it takes, turn away from the past, forget about it, look forward to the future to see where we are going.

In my public school, and in the popular media, we are told there is a group called white people, and they are often demonized for certain things. Then I'm told I'm one of them. I know I'm really not, it's just an ignorant, sometimes malicious over generalization based on appearance and ancestral continent(s).

I realize what you say is true. But people's attitudes are effected by the propaganda/misconception about an actual white, collectivist race existing, and that sometimes determines their actions. Personally, it is something I am learning to deflect by talking and thinking it out.

But there's another issue. If all this racial business is as silly as we know it is, then Affirmative Action, Racial Quotas, etc., really needs to go, because things like that only exacerbate and prolong the bitterness. I've made this argument, but I'm told by supporters that it's necessary because there's still racism. The existence of racism doesn't justify denying someone a position or opportunity because of their race to meet a lifeless, unreasoning, unaware quota. This will only make further bitterness towards the group it seeks to protect!
Proving yourself as an individual is the only solution.

Sorry, I might have gotten off topic from your original comment, but I like where I ended up.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/11/2013 11:14:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 11:10:39 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/10/2013 12:04:21 AM, Wnope wrote:
Somehow always I knew that, when Skynet finally came, it'd vote Republican.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is a republican, so this comment makes no sense. Unless you want skynet to take over.

Ever see Terminator 1?

In Terminator 2, he's a complete RINO.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 1:41:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/11/2013 9:22:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/11/2013 8:51:05 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 7/10/2013 10:34:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
What about all the good things whites have done? Why must we be ashamed of the bad stuff whites have done, and have a collective guilt over that, but if whites have done good you don't claim credit for it because those were "individual achievements".



On individual achievement, when my wife and I were just dating, she turned to me and said "White people don't have much solidarity, do they?"
At the time I did not know what to say. "We" don't, and racial solidarity is an alien thing to me. In a white neighborhood, a white person is just as much a stranger as any other neighborhood. But she told me that she only really feels comfortable in black neighborhoods, and people there may not know each other, but will act as if they are all part of the same community. That's such a strange thing to witness or hear about. She's right, for the most part, "white people" have no solidarity, are all individuals, and not part of any collective. That was an alien concept for her when I explained it to her.

I think it goes back to how the majority of both groups got to America. My ancestors came here for freedom and to make a living for themselves and their family. Many of her's were brought here only by someone else's will, so they stuck together as an oppressed group, for the most part.

I think education and society has made it so that white people are made guilty to be racially proud or to hold in-group favoritism towards blacks, while it is encouraged for blacks and other minorities. For example, the white student union on some college campus was hugely controversial and has created an uproar on campus, making the founder the most hated person on campus and given death threats constantly even though there's also a black student union.

It is pretty obvious though that people do hold onto to their race quite strongly though. I remember, for a friend's birthday celebration, who was black, that I was the only white person there and for a black friend's graduation party there were only 2 other white people besides myself (to be fair a lot of people there was family though).

White people can be proud of Western and European culture and history, American culture and history, and the culture and history of whatever American region they are from. The reason that the white racial category is not exactly something to be proud of is that it was not exactly about being European as it was about being relatively free from racial impurities. Over American history, groups formally perceived as inferior or alien have been assimilated into the white identity, such as the Irish, Italians, and Jews. Some groups, like Middle Easterners and Central Asians (especially Christian and Jewish ones), and some Mestizo and other racially mixed Latinos, were once considered white in some places in this country but new racial sensitivities have made them be judged as less white or not white at all. The idea of Whiteness, which has nothing to do with being European or even Western (were Central Asians ever Western?) is so tied up with privilege and exclusivity that celebrating it or forming Clubs or groups based on it seems offensive to those groups that have been excluded from the white category. Whites do not have a common history (like African-Americans), language, culture, or ethnicity (like Latinos), religion, country of origin or even continent of origin. Whiteness is just an arbitrary idea based on racial purity. "European-American" is a much less problematic racial category, although it does not include some groups currently or formerly considered white. In a school where the majority of students and professors are European-American, what point is there to havif a white students' association? If another race is the majority, maybe there might be a reason for European- Americans to want their interests represented, but what are those interests? What do European-Americans share in common? The only purpose I can think of is to make sure that European Americans are proportionately represented among the student government bodies and other committees. A name like "Students for Fair Representation" would be much less divisive. This is especially true because many black students would have European-American ancestry.
Citrakayah
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7/12/2013 1:58:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/10/2013 11:34:28 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
People like to harp on white people in this way because they're the majority and therefore the most relevant and easy to pick on.

Amusing, but incorrect: Chinese people are currently the majority. Granted, not here, but we are talking about American history. All the other things you mentioned did not happen in the USA, or even, for the most part, in North America.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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7/12/2013 3:03:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/12/2013 1:58:47 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 7/10/2013 11:34:28 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
People like to harp on white people in this way because they're the majority and therefore the most relevant and easy to pick on.

Amusing, but incorrect: Chinese people are currently the majority. Granted, not here, but we are talking about American history. All the other things you mentioned did not happen in the USA, or even, for the most part, in North America.

If you are talking globally, people with Chinese citizenship are a plurality, not a majority, over people with any other country's citizenship. As to whether the Han Chinese ethnicity constitutes a plurality over all other ethnicities - I honestly don't know the number there but it is possible, and it might depend on whether or not you consider all people of European or Sub-Saharan African descent to be the same ethnicity - in that case, why single out Han Chinese and not consider all people of East/Southeast Asian descent to be one ethnicity?
Jack212
Posts: 572
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7/22/2013 4:11:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/9/2013 11:58:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
I'm white and really conservative, so you could guess where this is going....

I'm white, and my wife is black. We love each other like crazy, and I only have ever heard of one person having a problem with us being together because of racial baloney.
The problem is not with each other, but how we think we have/have been treated in the past because of our individual "race". She's had to put up with people distrusting her because of her appearance, piers leaving her out, boyfriends' parents telling their sons she can't be brought into their house, and cousins telling her she's "not black enough" because she doesn't use ax and ask interchangeably, etc.

I grew up in a very small town, and didn't really have any real contact with black people until high school, and then not even on a regular basis. All my known ancestors (Going back to the 1600's with church baptism records recovered in Europe) were more likely to be enslaved peasants than slave owners or traders. None of my known ancestors ever lived in a slave state after immigrating to the U.S., nor drove Indians from their land, nor brainwashed Hopi children at vile Catholic missions.

But every year in public school I learned how White Europeans carried out extermination against natives, enslaved the Africans, introduced rats and plague and suppressed non-European culture with their vile missions. In a school with no blacks, we celebrated mandatory Black History Month every year (I like history in general, so that wasn't all bad). But in a place with no black people the question "What about White History Month?" was never answered, but always scoffed at. In middle school, we heard of atrocities committed by white police in the South during segregation.

The impression I was left with was that I was expected to have nothing to be proud of because of the identity I was told I had. That identity always frustrated me because I had very little Dutch or Irish or other British Islander in me, and the older customs of many of my neighbors were different enough that I didn't totally fit in. Friends looked at me funny because I didn't have Dutch Christian Reformed Catechism, or know the wonders of homemade oliebollen. (If you mention oliebollen to a Dutchman, he'll go nuts. Try it, seriously.)
And I certainly wasn't Catholic or Spanish, and had nothing to do with the Conquistadors. Take into account all the history of Europe, and I have to conclude the race "white," is a misnomer, and the same is obviously true of "black". No one talks very much about how our first black President is really less than 1/4 black. But there he is, supposedly "black" as ever, and it really really matters to a lot of people that is that way.

But here are my wife and I, happy with eachother, but bitter about who we are told we are. We talk about these issues, and argue, not at eachother, but in vain past eachother, hoping the "other" we see in the eachother will be an emissary from their race and explain what all that abuse and ignorance was all about all those years growing up, and occasionally today.

But we have few answers for eachother, because we're both victims of race baiters and the politically correct who claim to champion justice and an end to ignorance, but only induce bitterness in two people who just want to love eachother, start a family, and leave someone else's bygone sins to be forgotten.

Race is a superficial concept. Anybody who makes an issue out of it is a moron.
Skynet
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7/22/2013 9:32:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 4:11:20 AM, Jack212 wrote:


Race is a superficial concept. Anybody who makes an issue out of it is a moron.

I'm just making and issue of people making an issue about it, and making an issue out of me and my wife making an issue about people making an issue about it.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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7/22/2013 10:08:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Race is a superficial concept. Anybody who makes an issue out of it is a moron.

Spoken by someone who has probably never really had an issue with it.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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7/23/2013 12:42:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 9:32:21 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 7/22/2013 4:11:20 AM, Jack212 wrote:


Race is a superficial concept. Anybody who makes an issue out of it is a moron.

I'm just making and issue of people making an issue about it, and making an issue out of me and my wife making an issue about people making an issue about it.

I think black people are still struggling in this country. I love this country and would never abandon it, but I dont think there has never been an actual feeling of solidarity within this country. Race is still alive and it sometimes feels like society does not want to acknowledge it. I think because of this slavery is like an open wound that just will not heal. We are talking about people that were brought here and treated worse the humans and only reparated with recognition of humanity. Something we know know as an unalienable right. I can only expect people to stop talking about it when the source of the slavery, racism, is completely abolished. When you look at it black people really didnt gain anything for what they went through. The fact that you even started this thread is proof. And that is not good.

I do not blame white people, because we all keeping racism alive. I can say honestly that their are black people out there who will see you as less of a black person because of how proper you speak. Enough said there. However, I will say that black people really struggle for identity in America. So when black people see another black person different than us we ten to reject them. Because they dont fit the identity black people have created for themselves. Im sorry you wife has to go thru that.