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Whatever Society says

wordy
Posts: 146
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8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?
wordy
Posts: 146
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8/15/2013 4:10:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 4:05:50 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Define society.

I mean majority of the people living in society.
Drayson
Posts: 288
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8/15/2013 4:55:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

Exactly my thoughts.

I mentioned something similar in another thread...in kindergarten they teach kids that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, which is all fine and dandy but most of those kids grow up into adults with exactly that same level of knowledge. Ask most people today and they won't know the first thing about how the various sexual elements work in the human genome, and will probably stare at you in shock if you told then that every single person actually has male and female parts.

And ask most of them what a person is if they have penis but also have, say for example, ovaries and the XX chromosome - they will likely say first "what's a chromosome", then answer male, because that's the part THEY can see - and anything inside the body doesn't count.
"I'm not saying I don't trust you...and I'm not saying I do. But I don't"

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Jack212
Posts: 572
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8/15/2013 5:14:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

Of course you don't HAVE to listen to what society says, but not doing so will make your life difficult.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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8/15/2013 5:16:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There is no objective morality or ethics in a secular society. What is considered right might be considered wrong later on. Basically, peer presure.
On that basis, Hitler was right to the Nazis living at the time. If you vote to watch tv while the majority decided to start a slave society, guess what will happen?
Social pressure will exist to support the majority. How terrible things can be supported in that system depen ds on what the majority believes, they might believe that it is rational and positive unlike you.

The number of people who believes in something have zero validity on whether that something is right or true. Leaving out logic or concious will probably create something negative since these two are the most reliable innate guidelines.
You should be convinced by your opinions and know why. Listening and learning is wise, but agreeing is a different topic.

As for the transexual question, sexual organ implant is far from creating functional ones. So the answer is relative, it depends on your standards of judgement.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/15/2013 8:41:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Society is not a thing that speaks or thinks. What you call a social dictation is your statistical truncation of recurring, individual opinions.

Therefore your question is invalid.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/16/2013 10:56:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. Words themselves don't represent reality, they are a tool for exchanging ideas and thoughts. They may describe something in reality, they may describe something made up.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/16/2013 11:28:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 10:56:19 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. Words themselves don't represent reality, they are a tool for exchanging ideas and thoughts. They may describe something in reality, they may describe something made up.

"Society" may not understand the nuances of gender, and thus may refer to the term "women" rather broadly. Upon further study, they may believe that the term isn't completely correct in some circumstances, or they may believe it is correct. Words are created by convention, so are "correct" as they will be given a meaning, but that doesn't mean that people won't attach that meaning to something in an incorrect manner.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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8/16/2013 12:13:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Society forces people to conform to whatever they feel like shoving down peoples throats, whether its burning gays or unleashing a can of Jihad on the infidels the government will enforce what they please and most of the idiots who live in these countries will simply agree with society.
Turn around, go back.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/16/2013 12:18:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 11:28:22 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:56:19 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. Words themselves don't represent reality, they are a tool for exchanging ideas and thoughts. They may describe something in reality, they may describe something made up.

"Society" may not understand the nuances of gender, and thus may refer to the term "women" rather broadly. Upon further study, they may believe that the term isn't completely correct in some circumstances, or they may believe it is correct. Words are created by convention, so are "correct" as they will be given a meaning, but that doesn't mean that people won't attach that meaning to something in an incorrect manner.

If individuals or small groups attach incorrectly, then yes. However, if society as a whole attaches "incorrectly" then it becomes correct. That is how words change in meaning over time.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/16/2013 12:56:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 12:18:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 11:28:22 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:56:19 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. Words themselves don't represent reality, they are a tool for exchanging ideas and thoughts. They may describe something in reality, they may describe something made up.

"Society" may not understand the nuances of gender, and thus may refer to the term "women" rather broadly. Upon further study, they may believe that the term isn't completely correct in some circumstances, or they may believe it is correct. Words are created by convention, so are "correct" as they will be given a meaning, but that doesn't mean that people won't attach that meaning to something in an incorrect manner.

If individuals or small groups attach incorrectly, then yes. However, if society as a whole attaches "incorrectly" then it becomes correct. That is how words change in meaning over time.

Yes, the word has a meaning. They may use the word to claim something matches that meaning, when it doesn't. It doesn't mean that they're claiming that the new thing should be attached to the word, they just think the new thing matches the current meaning. Obviously if they want to change the meaning, and the majority (or significant minority) does also, then the word can mean whatever they want it to.

Sorry if that sounds like gibberish, it practically is.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/16/2013 1:43:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 12:56:47 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/16/2013 12:18:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 11:28:22 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:56:19 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/16/2013 10:40:32 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/15/2013 8:39:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/15/2013 3:54:06 PM, wordy wrote:
Should we listen to whatever society tells us? For an example, Society told us that we can identify a woman by her vagina and boobs. Women HAVE to have boobs and a vagina to be considered women. But, what about trans* women? They have penis. Aren't they women too?

"woman" is a word. Words are defined by groups and societies for the purpose of communication. As such, what society says is the meaning of a word and what isn't the meaning of a word, is accurate.

But the meaning may not accurately represent reality. OP, transexuality is kind of illigical really.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. Words themselves don't represent reality, they are a tool for exchanging ideas and thoughts. They may describe something in reality, they may describe something made up.

"Society" may not understand the nuances of gender, and thus may refer to the term "women" rather broadly. Upon further study, they may believe that the term isn't completely correct in some circumstances, or they may believe it is correct. Words are created by convention, so are "correct" as they will be given a meaning, but that doesn't mean that people won't attach that meaning to something in an incorrect manner.

If individuals or small groups attach incorrectly, then yes. However, if society as a whole attaches "incorrectly" then it becomes correct. That is how words change in meaning over time.

Yes, the word has a meaning. They may use the word to claim something matches that meaning, when it doesn't. It doesn't mean that they're claiming that the new thing should be attached to the word, they just think the new thing matches the current meaning. Obviously if they want to change the meaning, and the majority (or significant minority) does also, then the word can mean whatever they want it to.

Sorry if that sounds like gibberish, it practically is.

That depends on what "gibberish" means. One aspect that often causes confusion is that the same word can have different meanings within different subcultures. These different means then compete for dominance in the overall cultural definition.

Sometimes the subculture will simply create its own class of definitions, such as scientific definitions, which are often different from social definitions.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"