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Did Joe break the law?

Subutai
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8/17/2013 6:23:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In the eyes of the law, Joe did break the law. It doesn't matter if the consumer is 10 or 20 and 364/365ths years old. In both cases, the costumer is below the age of 21.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:27:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 6:33:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:23:42 PM, Subutai wrote:
In the eyes of the law, Joe did break the law. It doesn't matter if the consumer is 10 or 20 and 364/365ths years old. In both cases, the costumer is below the age of 21.

Shoud Joe go to Jail?
NightofTheLivingCats
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8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:35:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

The 16 year old.
Tsar of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:37:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

I think that Cats was thinking about consent laws, but no, the analogy doesn't jive.
Tsar of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/17/2013 6:39:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

*He or she.

Pardon my sexist assumption.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 6:43:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:37:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

I think that Cats was thinking about consent laws, but no, the analogy doesn't jive.

Why? The 18 year old still had sex with a minor.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:44:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:43:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:37:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

I think that Cats was thinking about consent laws, but no, the analogy doesn't jive.

Why? The 18 year old still had sex with a minor.

Irrelevant. The 18 year old did not intend to have sex with a minor. Most states, though, do not recognize 18 year olds having sex with 16 year olds as a crime.
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/17/2013 6:51:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mens rea comes into play.

If your first hypothetical had someone put a gun to Joe's head to sell the beer to the 20-years-and-364-days person, he wouldn't be considered guilty of the crime either.
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NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 6:51:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:44:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:43:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:37:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

I think that Cats was thinking about consent laws, but no, the analogy doesn't jive.

Why? The 18 year old still had sex with a minor.

Irrelevant. The 18 year old did not intend to have sex with a minor. Most states, though, do not recognize 18 year olds having sex with 16 year olds as a crime.

Is it really? I bet the 16 year could be the one feigning rape. This is why I don't like age-related laws. But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:52:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:51:41 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:44:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:43:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:37:37 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:36:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:34:02 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:32:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/17/2013 5:22:24 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
Let me tell you of a hypothetical. A store owner, Joe, has a 20 years and 364 days old customer who want beer . Joe sells. Did Joe break the law?

Yes.

Age-specific laws are unambiguously defined. Close-enough is not good enough.

So if a 16 year old rapes a 18 year old, who should go to jail?

umm, the 16 year old would likely be charged as an adult and sent to jail, and even if he was charged as a minor he would still be convicted and sent to some alternate detention center. How on God's green Earth is this even remotely relevant to the question originally posed?

I think that Cats was thinking about consent laws, but no, the analogy doesn't jive.

Why? The 18 year old still had sex with a minor.

Irrelevant. The 18 year old did not intend to have sex with a minor. Most states, though, do not recognize 18 year olds having sex with 16 year olds as a crime.

Is it really? I bet the 16 year could be the one feigning rape. This is why I don't like age-related laws.

Well, you can have your opinion. But, age laws exist for a reason.

But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.
Tsar of DDO
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/17/2013 7:03:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

You realize that, once age is considered a valid reason, the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Why not 1 hour, why not 2, why not 200, why not 2,000,000 hours?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 7:04:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:03:00 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

You realize that, once age is considered a valid reason, the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Why not 1 hour, why not 2, why not 200, why not 2,000,000 hours?

Thus why I don't like age laws.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.
Tsar of DDO
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.

Looks like we agree on something.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/17/2013 7:07:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:04:55 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:03:00 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

You realize that, once age is considered a valid reason, the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Why not 1 hour, why not 2, why not 200, why not 2,000,000 hours?

Thus why I don't like age laws.

So age is never a valid consideration in your estimation?
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NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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8/17/2013 7:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:07:50 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:04:55 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:03:00 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

You realize that, once age is considered a valid reason, the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Why not 1 hour, why not 2, why not 200, why not 2,000,000 hours?

Thus why I don't like age laws.

So age is never a valid consideration in your estimation?

Pretty much.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 7:09:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.


Looks like we agree on something.

I think that in principle, we agree completely, we just differ in the extent to which certain principles should apply. For example, I think 16 for beer/wine and 18 for liquor (or pot, if it were legal) would be acceptable too. If we had kvasks (idk what the english spelling is) which is a Russian dark beer like beverage, I'd even be ok with 14 for that (it's only about 1.5%/abv).
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NightofTheLivingCats
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8/17/2013 7:20:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:09:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.


Looks like we agree on something.

I think that in principle, we agree completely, we just differ in the extent to which certain principles should apply. For example, I think 16 for beer/wine and 18 for liquor (or pot, if it were legal) would be acceptable too. If we had kvasks (idk what the english spelling is) which is a Russian dark beer like beverage, I'd even be ok with 14 for that (it's only about 1.5%/abv).

How much alcohol is in beer and wine (abv)?
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 7:22:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:20:53 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:09:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.


Looks like we agree on something.

I think that in principle, we agree completely, we just differ in the extent to which certain principles should apply. For example, I think 16 for beer/wine and 18 for liquor (or pot, if it were legal) would be acceptable too. If we had kvasks (idk what the english spelling is) which is a Russian dark beer like beverage, I'd even be ok with 14 for that (it's only about 1.5%/abv).

How much alcohol is in beer and wine (abv)?

Depends on the beer or the wine, but usually about 4-4.5% for beer and 12-14.5% for wine (sometimes more or less depending on the beer/wine).
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NightofTheLivingCats
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8/17/2013 7:28:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:22:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:20:53 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:09:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.


Looks like we agree on something.

I think that in principle, we agree completely, we just differ in the extent to which certain principles should apply. For example, I think 16 for beer/wine and 18 for liquor (or pot, if it were legal) would be acceptable too. If we had kvasks (idk what the english spelling is) which is a Russian dark beer like beverage, I'd even be ok with 14 for that (it's only about 1.5%/abv).

How much alcohol is in beer and wine (abv)?

Depends on the beer or the wine, but usually about 4-4.5% for beer and 12-14.5% for wine (sometimes more or less depending on the beer/wine).

Wine is about 8-14%

http://www.alcoholcontents.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/17/2013 7:30:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:28:08 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:22:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:20:53 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:09:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:06:20 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:05:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

A person who is 20 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 + 99/100ths of a seconds old, they are still not 21 -so selling alcohol to them would be a violation of the law, so they should be fined.

I think that a drinking age of 21 is stupid too, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving didn't consult my opinion when they lobbied to have the drinking age raised to 21 a few decades ago...

I also happen to think that MADD is a fairly pointless organization, but again, that's another issue.


Looks like we agree on something.

I think that in principle, we agree completely, we just differ in the extent to which certain principles should apply. For example, I think 16 for beer/wine and 18 for liquor (or pot, if it were legal) would be acceptable too. If we had kvasks (idk what the english spelling is) which is a Russian dark beer like beverage, I'd even be ok with 14 for that (it's only about 1.5%/abv).

How much alcohol is in beer and wine (abv)?

Depends on the beer or the wine, but usually about 4-4.5% for beer and 12-14.5% for wine (sometimes more or less depending on the beer/wine).

Wine is about 8-14%

http://www.alcoholcontents.com...

I mean, there are wines that are less than 12%... but most of the wine I buy, at least, is about 12-14.5%. It really differs based on where the wine is produced. Wine made in warmer climates has a higher alcohol content because of the way that the sugars ferment differently... altitude can have some impact as well.
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/17/2013 8:38:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/17/2013 7:08:33 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:07:50 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:04:55 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:03:00 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2013 7:01:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:59:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/17/2013 6:56:16 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
But the OP. Should Joe go to jail?

No. A fine would be appropriate, though.

Why a fine? Why not jail?

Well, probably because that is the most common consequence for selling underage kids alcohol... though, I am admittedly biased to Massachusetts state law (i.e. that with which I am most familiar).

Even still, I think a fine is more reasonable because it neither places a burden on the state nor does it prevent a person from economically productive activity -it only penalizes them for illegal economic activity.

Why though? How about if the buyer was 1 hour away from his 21st birthday?

You realize that, once age is considered a valid reason, the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Why not 1 hour, why not 2, why not 200, why not 2,000,000 hours?

Thus why I don't like age laws.

So age is never a valid consideration in your estimation?

Pretty much.

Then the whole point here is irrelevant, really. In the end, the law should always be bright and clear and unambiguous. Doing so with age limits requires a specific age.

They could gradiate the punishments...but there would always be lines.

Think of it this way, is 46mph really all that much different than 45? Yet in many places one's illegal, one isn't. Same thing with age (though it's more universal, obviously).
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