Total Posts:103|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Russia and the discrimination of homosexuals.

criticalmass
Posts: 10
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 8:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 8:33:42 PM, ObiWan wrote:
Yeah, because no one would ever discriminate against blacks or jews...

lol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 8:38:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

Actually, people are not born gay. It is a chemical balance (as is everything that influence what you are attracted to, from a person's height to eye color to body structure) that develops as people enter and go through puberty. As with most people's attractions, it can change several times before solidifying.

So it isn't exactly like skin color or ancestry.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ObiWan
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 8:44:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 8:38:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

Actually, people are not born gay. It is a chemical balance (as is everything that influence what you are attracted to, from a person's height to eye color to body structure) that develops as people enter and go through puberty. As with most people's attractions, it can change several times before solidifying.

So it isn't exactly like skin color or ancestry.

I tend to agree, I have friends who are now gay, but weren't in the past (or at least didn't realise it)

Maybe some people are born gay and some develop it later on. Although none of this gives the Russians an excuse to discriminate against them. Putin is a nutcase, although he only reflects the social values of the people.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 9:07:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, what is all this talk about Russia hating on gays?

I have seen little to believe this is the case, and the only "Russian" thing I have heard is the propaganda law, which I don't agree with, but is targeting children really necessary, and often times, censorship in the name of the children is allowed.

The outrage seems a bit hypocritical and selective, but I am not wholly aware of the issue. (People on the internet are so misguided and stupid that I don't get very far in understanding the truth of the matter)
My work here is, finally, done.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 9:16:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 8:44:34 PM, ObiWan wrote:
At 8/20/2013 8:38:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

Actually, people are not born gay. It is a chemical balance (as is everything that influence what you are attracted to, from a person's height to eye color to body structure) that develops as people enter and go through puberty. As with most people's attractions, it can change several times before solidifying.

So it isn't exactly like skin color or ancestry.

I tend to agree, I have friends who are now gay, but weren't in the past (or at least didn't realise it)

Maybe some people are born gay and some develop it later on. Although none of this gives the Russians an excuse to discriminate against them. Putin is a nutcase, although he only reflects the social values of the people.

I originally thought people were born gay as well, but after further research it seems more likely they unknowingly turn gay (kind of comparing it to food. People's taste in food is partially developed during childhood). I would still not outright say it's a choice though.

At 8/20/2013 9:07:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, what is all this talk about Russia hating on gays?

I have seen little to believe this is the case, and the only "Russian" thing I have heard is the propaganda law, which I don't agree with, but is targeting children really necessary, and often times, censorship in the name of the children is allowed.

The outrage seems a bit hypocritical and selective...

I most agree with this. American media tends to blow up everything that the Russians do (for obvious reasons). I don't following Russian law that closely, but from what I've heard it's just mild censorship, not "violent crackdown" on all gays. But, from the analogy above, I wouldn't ban meat so kids will have to eat their vegetables, so I probably wouldn't support banning all forms of gay speech.
0x5f3759df
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2013 9:35:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 9:16:04 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 8/20/2013 8:44:34 PM, ObiWan wrote:
At 8/20/2013 8:38:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

Actually, people are not born gay. It is a chemical balance (as is everything that influence what you are attracted to, from a person's height to eye color to body structure) that develops as people enter and go through puberty. As with most people's attractions, it can change several times before solidifying.

I've stopped caring about this argument.
Whether it is nature or nurture, it doesn't really matter. People are attracted to who they are, the issue of why is really immaterial, IMO.

So it isn't exactly like skin color or ancestry.

I tend to agree, I have friends who are now gay, but weren't in the past (or at least didn't realise it)

Maybe some people are born gay and some develop it later on. Although none of this gives the Russians an excuse to discriminate against them. Putin is a nutcase, although he only reflects the social values of the people.

I originally thought people were born gay as well, but after further research it seems more likely they unknowingly turn gay (kind of comparing it to food. People's taste in food is partially developed during childhood). I would still not outright say it's a choice though.

At 8/20/2013 9:07:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, what is all this talk about Russia hating on gays?

I have seen little to believe this is the case, and the only "Russian" thing I have heard is the propaganda law, which I don't agree with, but is targeting children really necessary, and often times, censorship in the name of the children is allowed.

The outrage seems a bit hypocritical and selective...

I most agree with this. American media tends to blow up everything that the Russians do (for obvious reasons). I don't following Russian law that closely, but from what I've heard it's just mild censorship, not "violent crackdown" on all gays. But, from the analogy above, I wouldn't ban meat so kids will have to eat their vegetables, so I probably wouldn't support banning all forms of gay speech.

I have heard about a gay crowd (protesting or something) being overtaken by an even bigger anti-gay crowd, with violence ensuing against the gays, and when police broke it up, the gays were arrested.

Now, at face value, that looks like "violent crackdown". But, if the gay crowd was breaking the law, they should have been arrested, whether you agree with the law or not.

I don't know how true this story is (or maybe the gays started it), but it does show the overzealous nature of the advocate (which is annoying regardless of the issue) expressing selective outrage and/or distortion due to willful ignorance or purposeful manipulation in the usual circles (media, rights groups, anti-Russia, etc.).
My work here is, finally, done.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 12:31:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

Oh noes, they are forbidden from propagandizing children!!!! Pure evil.
Jack212
Posts: 572
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 3:07:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 7:51:37 PM, criticalmass wrote:
I would like to say I think it is appalling what the Russians are doing. People are born gay so to discriminate against them would be no different than to discriminate against blacks or Jews.

People are not born gay. There is no conclusive evidence that genetics, epigenetics, birth order, hormone supplements, molestation, MTV or the position of the Sun in the Zodiac causes homosexuality, though each of those may be a contributing factor. People have a variety of reasons for practicing homosexuality.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.
Turn around, go back.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 8:26:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

Maybe by discouraging homosexuality, they'll be able to get their birth rate back up.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 9:44:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 1:30:36 AM, Wnope wrote:
I have a friend in his late twenties. He has an old passport from Russian marking him as a "Jew."

So do I; it's not that old.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 2:38:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 10:58:05 AM, Cowboy0108 wrote:
Being gay is a choice. Thus, the discrimination is okay.
Yo Cowboy, did you accidentally shoot yourself in the head?
criticalmass
Posts: 10
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 2:45:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 10:58:05 AM, Cowboy0108 wrote:
Being gay is a choice. Thus, the discrimination is okay.

that is false on so many levels. Im not gay but have friends that are and while ppl tend to just say its a choice they are in fact wrong. homosexuality is determined in utero based on hormone levels I.E. too much testosterone and a girl will be gay, too little testosterone and a boy will be gay. and what about hermaphrodites they are born on the extreme levels of testosterone so hormones definitely play a role but most ppl use the argument that there are masculine gay guys and feminine lesbians, but those people fail to look at development after birth which can even out test levels but it doesn't change the fact that their gay. however its not my goal with this topic to debate natural vs environmental causes of homosexuality rather the aim was to discuss the abuses gays are being subject to in Russia. the gov. tied some rather ugly legislation into its child protection act which prohibits gay couples from even holding hands in public and the neo Nazis in the country are being considered vigilantes for luring young men for sex then killing them. all in the name of family values by putin who is going through a divorce. i do not despise Russian govt for just this. i have Chechen friends and co workers who were forced out of their homeland after the Russia for Russians propaganda they were literally told to leave Russia because they were muslim chechens instead of Russians.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 3:02:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 1:30:36 AM, Wnope wrote:
I have a friend in his late twenties. He has an old passport from Russian marking him as a "Jew."

Going to point this out to all Soviet revisionists. Thanks.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
drhead
Posts: 1,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 3:33:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 8:26:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

Maybe by discouraging homosexuality, they'll be able to get their birth rate back up.

Because the one thing that Russia needs the most is more mouths to feed!
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 4:47:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 3:33:08 PM, drhead wrote:
At 8/21/2013 8:26:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

Maybe by discouraging homosexuality, they'll be able to get their birth rate back up.

Because the one thing that Russia needs the most is more mouths to feed!

I think they might be more worried about the population decline, though you do make a valid point.

http://www.russiablog.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 5:02:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

That's a bit unfair. While it is the case that Russia (and surrounding countries throughout greater Eastern Europe) tend to be one or two generations in development behind the rest of the world, Moscow and St. Petersburg are both largely on par with any other major Western European city.
Tsar of DDO
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 5:27:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 8:26:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

Maybe by discouraging homosexuality, they'll be able to get their birth rate back up.

I think a more effective tactic to achieve a higher birth rate would be to become a third world country.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 5:29:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 5:02:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

That's a bit unfair. While it is the case that Russia (and surrounding countries throughout greater Eastern Europe) tend to be one or two generations in development behind the rest of the world, Moscow and St. Petersburg are both largely on par with any other major Western European city.

The Soviet Union was the equivalent of the Roman empire. ;)
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
YYW
Posts: 36,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 5:57:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 5:29:07 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:02:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

That's a bit unfair. While it is the case that Russia (and surrounding countries throughout greater Eastern Europe) tend to be one or two generations in development behind the rest of the world, Moscow and St. Petersburg are both largely on par with any other major Western European city.

The Soviet Union was the equivalent of the Roman empire. ;)

Y u be trollin'? lol
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 6:13:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 5:57:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:29:07 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:02:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

That's a bit unfair. While it is the case that Russia (and surrounding countries throughout greater Eastern Europe) tend to be one or two generations in development behind the rest of the world, Moscow and St. Petersburg are both largely on par with any other major Western European city.

The Soviet Union was the equivalent of the Roman empire. ;)

Y u be trollin'? lol

He needs 20 more posts to get to 3k and figured he'd have some fun with it?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
YYW
Posts: 36,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 6:27:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 6:13:35 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:57:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:29:07 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:02:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/21/2013 5:53:09 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Well this proves one thing, Russia are several thousand years behind everything else, I would not be surprised if they all started living in caves are go out looking for Mammoths to hunt.

That's a bit unfair. While it is the case that Russia (and surrounding countries throughout greater Eastern Europe) tend to be one or two generations in development behind the rest of the world, Moscow and St. Petersburg are both largely on par with any other major Western European city.

The Soviet Union was the equivalent of the Roman empire. ;)

Y u be trollin'? lol

He needs 20 more posts to get to 3k and figured he'd have some fun with it?

You might be on to something there, lol
Tsar of DDO
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 6:29:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1- There is no proof homosexuals are "born this way". There is no reason to assume they are born this way. This is a pseudoscience until further evidence is discovered.

2- Feelings and desires are probably not consciously chosen. Thoughts and desires are not to be judged. However, they are not to justify behavior either.

3- Homosexuality is a behavior. Conscious behaviors are not morally neutral and are to be judged. By asking for social acceptance, recognition, or endorsement, they cross the line of private right and went to the realm of public recognition and endorsement, they cross the line of public privilege. They must show that their behavior is beneficial to society and is deserving of that right.

4- By appealing to civil rights, you claim that homosexuals represents the third and fourth genders and thus equal to heterosexuals. In order to be equal to heterosexuals, they must have their own physiology that fits their own sexual activities. Otherwise, they are heterosexuals by design that categories themselves in one of the thousands of sexual orientations and engage in certain sexual activities.

5- This is a foreign nation for God's sake! It is a policy of a foreign nation. It is decided and agreed by people and authorities under that juridically. All laws enforce a certain point of view. Deal with it, laws discriminate. If you are calling them intolerant, you too are intolerant for not being intolerant of the majority's view.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2013 6:45:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 6:29:29 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
1- There is no proof homosexuals are "born this way". There is no reason to assume they are born this way. This is a pseudoscience until further evidence is discovered.

For example?

2- Feelings and desires are probably not consciously chosen. Thoughts and desires are not to be judged. However, they are not to justify behavior either.

Justification is only relevant in light of judgement. No judgement, no justification is needed.

3- Homosexuality is a behavior. Conscious behaviors are not morally neutral and are to be judged.

This is conflation. What sexually arouses is not a conscious behavior. How you act upon that is. Homosexuality is a combination of both, but is moreso the former.

By asking for social acceptance, recognition, or endorsement, they cross the line of private right and went to the realm of public recognition and endorsement, they cross the line of public privilege. They must show that their behavior is beneficial to society and is deserving of that right.

Acceptance is not endorsement.

4- By appealing to civil rights, you claim that homosexuals represents the third and fourth genders and thus equal to heterosexuals. In order to be equal to heterosexuals, they must have their own physiology that fits their own sexual activities. Otherwise, they are heterosexuals by design that categories themselves in one of the thousands of sexual orientations and engage in certain sexual activities.

Hogwash.

5- This is a foreign nation for God's sake! It is a policy of a foreign nation. It is decided and agreed by people and authorities under that juridically. All laws enforce a certain point of view. Deal with it, laws discriminate. If you are calling them intolerant, you too are intolerant for not being intolerant of the majority's view.

Germany was a foreign nation, too.