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It's your fault

ClassicRobert
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9/21/2013 8:33:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Indian comedy group All India Bakchod has decided to satirize victim blaming for rape in this video, entitled "It's your fault." There has been much controversy over it, as many think that it turns rape into a joke, or that if they were trying to address the problem in India, they should have done it in Indian rather than English. What are your thoughts? Do you think that the victim should take any of the blame, or should it fall squarely on the hands of the rapist? How should rape be punished? Do we live in a rape culture?
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
000ike
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9/21/2013 9:05:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who deserves blame is the crime of rape is a nonissue. Forwarding this question like it has more than one valid perspective legitimizes some ridiculous opinions.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
ClassicRobert
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9/21/2013 9:09:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:05:23 AM, 000ike wrote:
Who deserves blame is the crime of rape is a nonissue. Forwarding this question like it has more than one valid perspective legitimizes some ridiculous opinions.

Victim blaming is, of course, an issue. This needs to be addressed, and acting like it shouldn't be asked means that we'd essentially be considering those who do blame the victim as lost causes who we cannot help. Our duty, as debaters, is to convince otherwise.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 9:34:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:05:23 AM, 000ike wrote:
Who deserves blame is the crime of rape is a nonissue. Forwarding this question like it has more than one valid perspective legitimizes some ridiculous opinions.

There are many out there who believe, and justifiably in my opinion, that one's inner irksome thoughts emanate out through them and stir in others their answer to whatever those thoughts regard, be it positive or negative, and thus perhaps it's not really a non-issue, but might be a question with regard to the prime mover. People become what you make of them, certainly if they might make that same thing of themselves. Or in my opinion anyway. Why are you so sure otherwise?
Cermank
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9/21/2013 9:49:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 8:33:12 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Indian comedy group All India Bakchod has decided to satirize victim blaming for rape in this video, entitled "It's your fault." There has been much controversy over it, as many think that it turns rape into a joke, or that if they were trying to address the problem in India, they should have done it in Indian rather than English. What are your thoughts? Do you think that the victim should take any of the blame, or should it fall squarely on the hands of the rapist? How should rape be punished? Do we live in a rape culture?



There's no Indian language. There are hundreds of languages in India, English and Hindi are the official languages. It might have been done in Hindi, but the point of using English must have been to point out that the problem cuts across regions, across borders. It isn't a solely Indian problem. Also,Hindi is spoken in a few states, so that would have been limiting in its impact.

I saw this video yesterday, even shared it for a few minutes- but ultimately felt that nagging dirty feeling after seeing the video, so decided to take it down. It's a powerful video, no doubt. It doesn't really trivialize rape, tbh. But for people who live IN the rape culture and are affected by it, it touches a raw nerve. The point of a video like this, however, is to reach across to the people who DON'T believe that the rape culture exists, and being an angry feminist isn't really the way forward. Satire is a powerful tool.

Obviously the victim shouldn't take any blame, that isn't even up for question. As long as we are talking of India, the victim blaming doesn't really stop anywhere. It starts with short skirts, extends to tank tops, goes on to jeans (they're tight, you see) , encompass the entirety of western clothes (/Western people are promiscuous) , and then even some of the Indian clothes (Why show your sexiness in saaris, and tight kurtis?).

Then if your clothes are all right, there's timings to blame. Go out late at night and OF COURSE you'd get raped. And there's no definite yardstick of 'late'. And then they go on about whether or not to go out with 'male friends', (there's still no consensus), and what not. It even went out to use of mobiles and eating chowmein, for example.

So, yes, blame the victim and there's no stop to the extent to which she's be blamed. The males are just carnal animals with no self control, so you can't really blame them. And this is regressive for both- the males AND the females.

As for rape culture- http://archive.tehelka.com...

I don't think I can even explain the extent to which the culture has pervaded our every sense. And this is specifically not Indian in context, there are just different layers of that in every culture. That CNN unfortunate commentary, the latest one from Japan stating that he offered Japanese prostitutes to 'sexually aggressive and unfulfilled marines', everywhere. Although I'm more competent talking about Indian culture, of course.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 10:08:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"For example, I have observed that people who carry a lot of anger inside without being aware of it and without expressing it are more likely to be attacked, verbally or even physically, by other angry people, and often for no apparent reason. They have a strong emanation of anger that certain people pick up subliminally and that triggers their own latent anger."

This, I find, is undoubtedly true - a quote from the book 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle. And then this phenomenon might very well be pertinent to rape, too, no?

Now I'm not saying rape isn't wrong, or monstrous, or anything like that, but perhaps that alleviating the world of such monstrosity might very well start at home, inside your own head.

'Culture,' then, on the other hand, refers to everyone but you.
Cermank
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9/21/2013 10:12:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 10:08:23 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
"For example, I have observed that people who carry a lot of anger inside without being aware of it and without expressing it are more likely to be attacked, verbally or even physically, by other angry people, and often for no apparent reason. They have a strong emanation of anger that certain people pick up subliminally and that triggers their own latent anger."

This, I find, is undoubtedly true - a quote from the book 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle. And then this phenomenon might very well be pertinent to rape, too, no?

Now I'm not saying rape isn't wrong, or monstrous, or anything like that, but perhaps that alleviating the world of such monstrosity might very well start at home, inside your own head.

'Culture,' then, on the other hand, refers to everyone but you.

Are you saying something along the line of how we should stop being 'angry' about rape?
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 10:24:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 10:12:25 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:08:23 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
"For example, I have observed that people who carry a lot of anger inside without being aware of it and without expressing it are more likely to be attacked, verbally or even physically, by other angry people, and often for no apparent reason. They have a strong emanation of anger that certain people pick up subliminally and that triggers their own latent anger."

This, I find, is undoubtedly true - a quote from the book 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle. And then this phenomenon might very well be pertinent to rape, too, no?

Now I'm not saying rape isn't wrong, or monstrous, or anything like that, but perhaps that alleviating the world of such monstrosity might very well start at home, inside your own head.

'Culture,' then, on the other hand, refers to everyone but you.

Are you saying something along the line of how we should stop being 'angry' about rape?

Yes. That doesn't mean you shouldn't work against it, though. I'm just saying that anger is really but negativity, which is then counter-productive.

There was actually a scientific experiment carried out before, where a few kids in a group of kids had stutters, and for their stuttering they were very negatively reprimanded. This, then, rather than helping those stuttering kids, actually brought many of the other kids to develop stutters, too.

I mean that was very counter-productive, no? And then essentially the same thing might be thought of anger as regards to rapists, anger which is dwelt upon and gives rise to many very negative considerations to go with the feeling. "The males are just carnal animals with no self control, so you can't really blame them," for example.

Strong emotions can be very misleading is all I'm saying.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 10:26:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The most important consideration, I think, is that we all might be communicating with each other in a way that is much more profound than what we might first conceive of.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?
Cermank
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9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 11:41:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

You've never considered that that's just what men are, though? I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you refer to masturbation as 'immoral,' which isn't really all that sensible.

Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

What I mean is, negativity is something we're all very prone to dwell on, and if you dwell on something too long, that it takes control of you. I think people with Tourette's syndrome, too, are a very good example of this. And then what if you didn't dwell on this bad, not to the extreme of positing monstrous explanation after explanation for it anyway; might you, and through you, others, not benefit hugely from this? What if you viewed it as merely a misunderstanding and this was felt by others through you, say? In my opinion all negativity stems from pretty much primordial pain, anguish felt in consideration of abandonment and incompleteness; and then maybe these considerations, these possible prime movers, were wrong, no?

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.

I disagree. Again, anger is just plain ol' negativity. Why is it conducive to progress?
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 11:50:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically, what I'm saying is, anger is not conducive to having faith in yourself, and if you can't have faith in yourself, how can you ever expect to have faith in others? I mean you're quite literally proposing to tear down the world in anger...
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 11:58:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
WSA is another who thinks very much as you do, Cermank. Basically, he believes that we're animals and that it's all about sex, but still he proffers no masturbation as a solution, as though sex is enough to bring us together, though obviously filled with doubt and nervously laughing at that doubt, and then nobody ever joins him in his attempts at DDO revolutions. He has lost himself in negativity, I think, but is still trying to find the way, just as everyone else is. We're all just trying to be one.
Cermank
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9/21/2013 12:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 11:41:07 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

You've never considered that that's just what men are, though?

Men are... born to rape?

I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you refer to masturbation as 'immoral,' which isn't really all that sensible.

I've never, ever, referred to masturbation as immoral.


Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

What I mean is, negativity is something we're all very prone to dwell on, and if you dwell on something too long, that it takes control of you. I think people with Tourette's syndrome, too, are a very good example of this. And then what if you didn't dwell on this bad, not to the extreme of positing monstrous explanation after explanation for it anyway; might you, and through you, others, not benefit hugely from this? What if you viewed it as merely a misunderstanding and this was felt by others through you, say? In my opinion all negativity stems from pretty much primordial pain, anguish felt in consideration of abandonment and incompleteness; and then maybe these considerations, these possible prime movers, were wrong, no?

Of course. If I were to be blamed because a man couldn't control his desires, I'd feel 'primordial pain, anguish because of abandonment and incompleteness' and the complete sh!t. But I wouldn't be moving forward if I came to terms with the society. Of course there is negativity and all that hoopla, but that's what to be expected when an entire gender is relegated to a second citizen category.

How do you propose to fight without 'anger' ?

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.

I disagree. Again, anger is just plain ol' negativity. Why is it conducive to progress?

You're a Marxist, no? Class struggle and abolition of hierarchical classes isn't possible without a revolutionary class struggle. Without anger at the inherent injustice, why would you struggle?
Cermank
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9/21/2013 12:14:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 11:50:26 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Basically, what I'm saying is, anger is not conducive to having faith in yourself, and if you can't have faith in yourself, how can you ever expect to have faith in others?

I read this multiple times and I have no idea what this means in the context of the conversation.

I mean you're quite literally proposing to tear down the world in anger...

How am I proposing to tear down the world in anger?

If anything, I stated that 'being an angry feminist wasn't going to help the feminist cause', and sarcasm is a powerful tool. Thus, we need to direct that anger in more productive mediums to get the message across.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 12:17:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 12:09:49 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:41:07 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

You've never considered that that's just what men are, though?

Men are... born to rape?

No, that men are just carnal entities.

I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you refer to masturbation as 'immoral,' which isn't really all that sensible.

I've never, ever, referred to masturbation as immoral.

You have, though. That time you posted about masturbation being made illegal, you stated that you thought for a moment that the world was going on a 'moral ride.' Such a statement has implications.


Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

What I mean is, negativity is something we're all very prone to dwell on, and if you dwell on something too long, that it takes control of you. I think people with Tourette's syndrome, too, are a very good example of this. And then what if you didn't dwell on this bad, not to the extreme of positing monstrous explanation after explanation for it anyway; might you, and through you, others, not benefit hugely from this? What if you viewed it as merely a misunderstanding and this was felt by others through you, say? In my opinion all negativity stems from pretty much primordial pain, anguish felt in consideration of abandonment and incompleteness; and then maybe these considerations, these possible prime movers, were wrong, no?

Of course. If I were to be blamed because a man couldn't control his desires, I'd feel 'primordial pain, anguish because of abandonment and incompleteness' and the complete sh!t. But I wouldn't be moving forward if I came to terms with the society. Of course there is negativity and all that hoopla, but that's what to be expected when an entire gender is relegated to a second citizen category.

Indeed, it's to be expected, but what I'm saying is that it's more of the same. You're fighting fire with fire, which is really just absolutely nonsensical if you think about it.

How do you propose to fight without 'anger' ?

Just... without anger?

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.

I disagree. Again, anger is just plain ol' negativity. Why is it conducive to progress?

You're a Marxist, no? Class struggle and abolition of hierarchical classes isn't possible without a revolutionary class struggle. Without anger at the inherent injustice, why would you struggle?

Just in knowing that it is wrong. Again, I don't think anger is conducive to progress, but terrible misconceptions and just more of the same pretty much. There is very little oneness is hatred.
AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 12:20:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 12:14:26 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:50:26 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Basically, what I'm saying is, anger is not conducive to having faith in yourself, and if you can't have faith in yourself, how can you ever expect to have faith in others?

I read this multiple times and I have no idea what this means in the context of the conversation.

Well you're dreaming of a better world, right? An ordered world... but anger is but turbulence, but an unchecked emotion really, and emotions control thoughts, not the other way around.

I mean you're quite literally proposing to tear down the world in anger...

How am I proposing to tear down the world in anger?

If anything, I stated that 'being an angry feminist wasn't going to help the feminist cause', and sarcasm is a powerful tool. Thus, we need to direct that anger in more productive mediums to get the message across.

And so you're proposing exactly what I said you're proposing. Why anger?
tulle
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9/21/2013 12:28:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:49:21 AM, Cermank wrote:

There's no Indian language. There are hundreds of languages in India, English and Hindi are the official languages. It might have been done in Hindi, but the point of using English must have been to point out that the problem cuts across regions, across borders. It isn't a solely Indian problem. Also,Hindi is spoken in a few states, so that would have been limiting in its impact.

I saw this video yesterday, even shared it for a few minutes- but ultimately felt that nagging dirty feeling after seeing the video, so decided to take it down. It's a powerful video, no doubt. It doesn't really trivialize rape, tbh. But for people who live IN the rape culture and are affected by it, it touches a raw nerve. The point of a video like this, however, is to reach across to the people who DON'T believe that the rape culture exists, and being an angry feminist isn't really the way forward. Satire is a powerful tool.

Obviously the victim shouldn't take any blame, that isn't even up for question. As long as we are talking of India, the victim blaming doesn't really stop anywhere. It starts with short skirts, extends to tank tops, goes on to jeans (they're tight, you see) , encompass the entirety of western clothes (/Western people are promiscuous) , and then even some of the Indian clothes (Why show your sexiness in saaris, and tight kurtis?).

Then if your clothes are all right, there's timings to blame. Go out late at night and OF COURSE you'd get raped. And there's no definite yardstick of 'late'. And then they go on about whether or not to go out with 'male friends', (there's still no consensus), and what not. It even went out to use of mobiles and eating chowmein, for example.

So, yes, blame the victim and there's no stop to the extent to which she's be blamed. The males are just carnal animals with no self control, so you can't really blame them. And this is regressive for both- the males AND the females.

As for rape culture- http://archive.tehelka.com...

I don't think I can even explain the extent to which the culture has pervaded our every sense. And this is specifically not Indian in context, there are just different layers of that in every culture. That CNN unfortunate commentary, the latest one from Japan stating that he offered Japanese prostitutes to 'sexually aggressive and unfulfilled marines', everywhere. Although I'm more competent talking about Indian culture, of course.

This is... the perfect post.
yang.
sdavio
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9/21/2013 12:33:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Rapists are sad people already - we're not going to 'fix' them by laughing at them; by being sarcastic about them. People are lonely; and marginalizing and fighting them makes the problem worse. Sarcasm is really just anger under a veil of intelligence, or something.. and then in this video, and often modern feminism in general, functioning as anger as an outlet for pain - the exact mirror of what's happening in a rapist's mind.

So the solution is, IMO, to try to understand rather than 'fix', to change the self rather than change the other.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Cermank
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9/21/2013 12:44:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 12:17:24 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 12:09:49 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:41:07 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

You've never considered that that's just what men are, though?

Men are... born to rape?

No, that men are just carnal entities.

So are women. Consent has a lot to play in it though. Sex is natural, progressive. Rape is not. The carnal nature of men has nothing to do with rape. That is all structural and power hierarchy.

I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you refer to masturbation as 'immoral,' which isn't really all that sensible.

I've never, ever, referred to masturbation as immoral.

You have, though. That time you posted about masturbation being made illegal, you stated that you thought for a moment that the world was going on a 'moral ride.' Such a statement has implications.

That's cherry picking. I hope no one else thought so.


Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

What I mean is, negativity is something we're all very prone to dwell on, and if you dwell on something too long, that it takes control of you. I think people with Tourette's syndrome, too, are a very good example of this. And then what if you didn't dwell on this bad, not to the extreme of positing monstrous explanation after explanation for it anyway; might you, and through you, others, not benefit hugely from this? What if you viewed it as merely a misunderstanding and this was felt by others through you, say? In my opinion all negativity stems from pretty much primordial pain, anguish felt in consideration of abandonment and incompleteness; and then maybe these considerations, these possible prime movers, were wrong, no?

Of course. If I were to be blamed because a man couldn't control his desires, I'd feel 'primordial pain, anguish because of abandonment and incompleteness' and the complete sh!t. But I wouldn't be moving forward if I came to terms with the society. Of course there is negativity and all that hoopla, but that's what to be expected when an entire gender is relegated to a second citizen category.

Indeed, it's to be expected, but what I'm saying is that it's more of the same. You're fighting fire with fire, which is really just absolutely nonsensical if you think about it.

How do you propose to fight without 'anger' ?

Just... without anger?

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.

I disagree. Again, anger is just plain ol' negativity. Why is it conducive to progress?

You're a Marxist, no? Class struggle and abolition of hierarchical classes isn't possible without a revolutionary class struggle. Without anger at the inherent injustice, why would you struggle?

Just in knowing that it is wrong. Again, I don't think anger is conducive to progress, but terrible misconceptions and just more of the same pretty much. There is very little oneness is hatred.

I guess you are trying to differentiate between 'burning effigies and killing people' anger and 'progressive' anger. Anger that gets the point across without discrediting the proponents. Anger is required though. Anger isn't inherently regressive, it's what you do with that anger that determines your course of action.

but anger is but turbulence, but an unchecked emotion really, and emotions control thoughts, not the other way around.

Anger has the potential of becoming unchecked, it isn't inherently so.
ClassicRobert
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9/21/2013 12:51:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 12:28:27 PM, tulle wrote:
At 9/21/2013 9:49:21 AM, Cermank wrote:

There's no Indian language. There are hundreds of languages in India, English and Hindi are the official languages. It might have been done in Hindi, but the point of using English must have been to point out that the problem cuts across regions, across borders. It isn't a solely Indian problem. Also,Hindi is spoken in a few states, so that would have been limiting in its impact.

I saw this video yesterday, even shared it for a few minutes- but ultimately felt that nagging dirty feeling after seeing the video, so decided to take it down. It's a powerful video, no doubt. It doesn't really trivialize rape, tbh. But for people who live IN the rape culture and are affected by it, it touches a raw nerve. The point of a video like this, however, is to reach across to the people who DON'T believe that the rape culture exists, and being an angry feminist isn't really the way forward. Satire is a powerful tool.

Obviously the victim shouldn't take any blame, that isn't even up for question. As long as we are talking of India, the victim blaming doesn't really stop anywhere. It starts with short skirts, extends to tank tops, goes on to jeans (they're tight, you see) , encompass the entirety of western clothes (/Western people are promiscuous) , and then even some of the Indian clothes (Why show your sexiness in saaris, and tight kurtis?).

Then if your clothes are all right, there's timings to blame. Go out late at night and OF COURSE you'd get raped. And there's no definite yardstick of 'late'. And then they go on about whether or not to go out with 'male friends', (there's still no consensus), and what not. It even went out to use of mobiles and eating chowmein, for example.

So, yes, blame the victim and there's no stop to the extent to which she's be blamed. The males are just carnal animals with no self control, so you can't really blame them. And this is regressive for both- the males AND the females.

As for rape culture- http://archive.tehelka.com...

I don't think I can even explain the extent to which the culture has pervaded our every sense. And this is specifically not Indian in context, there are just different layers of that in every culture. That CNN unfortunate commentary, the latest one from Japan stating that he offered Japanese prostitutes to 'sexually aggressive and unfulfilled marines', everywhere. Although I'm more competent talking about Indian culture, of course.

This is... the perfect post.

Agreed
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AnDoctuir
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9/21/2013 12:53:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 12:44:51 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 12:17:24 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 12:09:49 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:41:07 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/21/2013 11:19:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 9/21/2013 10:28:38 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And then I'm just absolutely sure that we are, and to a profound degree, right down to intricacy. And so you say that it's not the man's fault, that that's just what he is, and you're drawing it upon yourself perhaps, no?

That was sarcastic. Meant to show how people who blame the women give a free ride to the men because 'men will be men'. More and more research are concluding its more about power structures and inherent social structures rather than some intrinsic rape gene. (shocker).

You've never considered that that's just what men are, though?

Men are... born to rape?

No, that men are just carnal entities.

So are women. Consent has a lot to play in it though. Sex is natural, progressive. Rape is not. The carnal nature of men has nothing to do with rape. That is all structural and power hierarchy.

What is carnal? Don't try to tell me you don't entertain any doubts with such a belief as a basis, that we are only carnal entities.

I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you refer to masturbation as 'immoral,' which isn't really all that sensible.

I've never, ever, referred to masturbation as immoral.

You have, though. That time you posted about masturbation being made illegal, you stated that you thought for a moment that the world was going on a 'moral ride.' Such a statement has implications.

That's cherry picking. I hope no one else thought so.

It's not really, though, is it? More a logical follow-on.


Although I'm not sure you can equate a rapist to a stuttering child. There was a similar case here, actually, when a godman said that a girl should just call her rapist a bhaiya (brother), and the rapist would stop. In some weird twisting way of 'love conquers all'. Although, in principle, I agree with you (merely because it's too much energy and animosity to fight the status quo) I really don't think a gender already stereotyped as mild mannered and sweet would gain much much by softly fighting the status quo.

What I mean is, negativity is something we're all very prone to dwell on, and if you dwell on something too long, that it takes control of you. I think people with Tourette's syndrome, too, are a very good example of this. And then what if you didn't dwell on this bad, not to the extreme of positing monstrous explanation after explanation for it anyway; might you, and through you, others, not benefit hugely from this? What if you viewed it as merely a misunderstanding and this was felt by others through you, say? In my opinion all negativity stems from pretty much primordial pain, anguish felt in consideration of abandonment and incompleteness; and then maybe these considerations, these possible prime movers, were wrong, no?

Of course. If I were to be blamed because a man couldn't control his desires, I'd feel 'primordial pain, anguish because of abandonment and incompleteness' and the complete sh!t. But I wouldn't be moving forward if I came to terms with the society. Of course there is negativity and all that hoopla, but that's what to be expected when an entire gender is relegated to a second citizen category.

Indeed, it's to be expected, but what I'm saying is that it's more of the same. You're fighting fire with fire, which is really just absolutely nonsensical if you think about it.

How do you propose to fight without 'anger' ?

Just... without anger?

Men equate power with aggressiveness, softness, for them, is weakness. Rapes happen because of the skewed power structure. Letting go of the anger might lead to personal peace, but for the society as a whole, it's really not that progressive.

I disagree. Again, anger is just plain ol' negativity. Why is it conducive to progress?

You're a Marxist, no? Class struggle and abolition of hierarchical classes isn't possible without a revolutionary class struggle. Without anger at the inherent injustice, why would you struggle?

Just in knowing that it is wrong. Again, I don't think anger is conducive to progress, but terrible misconceptions and just more of the same pretty much. There is very little oneness is hatred.

I guess you are trying to differentiate between 'burning effigies and killing people' anger and 'progressive' anger. Anger that gets the point across without discrediting the proponents. Anger is required though. Anger isn't inherently regressive, it's what you do with that anger that determines your course of action.

but anger is but turbulence, but an unchecked emotion really, and emotions control thoughts, not the other way around.

Anger has the potential of becoming unchecked, it isn't inherently so.

No, it actually is. Again, anger is just a feeling. Your 'checked' anger is what isn't inherent, and then why are you angry? Why not pitiful, sad, hopeful, etc.? It's because you're lost in negativity but trying to find some way all the same. The thing is, though, you're still lost in negativity and are only going to drag others into that negativity with you.
Mysterious_Stranger
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9/21/2013 1:07:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Let's look at it like this. Do these women want to be raped? If the answer is no then it is not the victims fault.
Turn around, go back.
sdavio
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9/21/2013 1:11:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 1:07:42 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Let's look at it like this. Do these women want to be raped? If the answer is no then it is not the victims fault.

And what do we achieve by placing 'fault' on the person and getting angry at them?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx