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Should teens have more legal rights?

luvx
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9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.
Mysterious_Stranger
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9/21/2013 2:24:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM, luvx wrote:
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.

I think most teenagers have a lot more control over their lives than they would have had say 30 years ago. Either way most young people are incapable of sensible decisions, that is why the law is in place.
Turn around, go back.
luvx
Posts: 53
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9/21/2013 2:27:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:24:36 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
I think most teenagers have a lot more control over their lives than they would have had say 30 years ago. Either way most young people are incapable of sensible decisions, that is why the law is in place.
That is a generalization. Young people are far more capable. Some 14 year olds are more capable then others. We should have some flexibility in the system to distinguish the two.
Mysterious_Stranger
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9/21/2013 2:28:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:27:48 PM, luvx wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:24:36 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
I think most teenagers have a lot more control over their lives than they would have had say 30 years ago. Either way most young people are incapable of sensible decisions, that is why the law is in place.
That is a generalization. Young people are far more capable. Some 14 year olds are more capable then others. We should have some flexibility in the system to distinguish the two.

I said most not all.
Turn around, go back.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/21/2013 2:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I, for one, welcome our adult overlords.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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luvx
Posts: 53
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9/21/2013 2:37:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Did I mention rights come with responsibilities? Yes they should be tried as adults.
Mysterious_Stranger
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9/21/2013 2:39:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:37:30 PM, luvx wrote:
Did I mention rights come with responsibilities? Yes they should be tried as adults.

That I agree with.
Turn around, go back.
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.
muzebreak
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9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Andromeda_Z
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9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

Also, if a minor really is capable of taking care of himself and can prove so by actually doing that, many states have provisions for emancipation. The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age. I don't even know if Sho Yano could. Sure, he could do stunningly well in academics, but there's a world of difference between academic pursuits and life skills. Want to test that, take everyone on DDO and toss them out on the streets until sundown, no internet. I bet half of them won't make it, or at least come back traumatized. :p
bossyburrito
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9/24/2013 1:26:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age.

So you're agreeing with the OP?

"They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves."

The issue of age is totally irrelevant when it comes to any question other than "how old are you"?
#UnbanTheMadman

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Or lose the race to rats
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muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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9/24/2013 4:18:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

Yes, his mother educated him. What exactly does that show that is relevant?


Also, if a minor really is capable of taking care of himself and can prove so by actually doing that, many states have provisions for emancipation. The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age. I don't even know if Sho Yano could. Sure, he could do stunningly well in academics, but there's a world of difference between academic pursuits and life skills. Want to test that, take everyone on DDO and toss them out on the streets until sundown, no internet. I bet half of them won't make it, or at least come back traumatized. :p

I was simply giving an example of someone who, at puberty, had the cognitive skills to care for themselves. I'm not here to argue that teens should all be given more rights, because I'm more inclined to agree with you. But I do think there should be better avenues to get those rights early. Like an exemption exam, or something of the sort.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/24/2013 11:56:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM, luvx wrote:
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.

We tell them that they are still a child because thousands of years of dealing with them has taught adults that teens ARE still kids, even though most think they have it all figured out already. Twenty years from now you'll look back and be surprised at how not ready for adulthood you really were. Kids have always wanted the "freedom" of being an adult, but in reality that freedom brings lots more responsibility that most teens just aren't ready for yet. My kids were given control of the situations and decisions that they demonstrated the maturity and common sense to be able to handle.

If this is a problem for you then I suggest sitting down and telling your parents that you'd like more control and more rights to make decisions in your life. Demonstrate to them why you have shown the maturity necessary to be able to make good decisions. Ultimately though, you have to accept their decision because the law holds them responsible for your upbringing. They can get in legal trouble if they just turn everything over to you and you're out running around partying, having sex, skipping school, etc.

I say just chill out and enjoy your younger years, they won't last forever.
luvx
Posts: 53
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9/24/2013 2:04:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 11:56:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM, luvx wrote:
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.

We tell them that they are still a child because thousands of years of dealing with them has taught adults that teens ARE still kids, even though most think they have it all figured out already. Twenty years from now you'll look back and be surprised at how not ready for adulthood you really were. Kids have always wanted the "freedom" of being an adult, but in reality that freedom brings lots more responsibility that most teens just aren't ready for yet. My kids were given control of the situations and decisions that they demonstrated the maturity and common sense to be able to handle.

If this is a problem for you then I suggest sitting down and telling your parents that you'd like more control and more rights to make decisions in your life. Demonstrate to them why you have shown the maturity necessary to be able to make good decisions. Ultimately though, you have to accept their decision because the law holds them responsible for your upbringing. They can get in legal trouble if they just turn everything over to you and you're out running around partying, having sex, skipping school, etc.

I say just chill out and enjoy your younger years, they won't last forever.

Some teens are capable of handling adult responsibilities, some aren't. We need more flexibility in the system. Yet some 30 year olds still aren't capable and we give them adult responsibilities when they aren't capable. We need to determine whose capable and who isn't. I'm also saying that if a teen destroys property or vandalizes then the parents should not be responsible. Our education system needs to change, just mandating the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic, what we require naturalized citizens to know) and everything else should be voluntary and relating to your field (if you want to become a nurse, you learn what is needed to become a nurse). Teens should have adult rights and responsibilities when they become competent (which is defined as "having reasonable age and mental capacity to be able to comprehend the nature and consequences of affairs") such as drinking alcohol and voting. I put " reasonable age" because we are not going to let 5 year olds vote. But some 12 year olds can vote. Some 12 year olds are influenced by their parents saying "Obama is better than Romney" but some aren't. We should have some flexibility in the system to distinguish the two. Back before the industrial revolution, 12 year olds would be getting married.
luvx
Posts: 53
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9/24/2013 2:18:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Everybody matures at different levels. Some 14 year olds are more capable then some 30 year olds. I'm asking for more flexibility in the law to determine whose capable and who isn't.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/24/2013 2:19:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 2:04:24 PM, luvx wrote:
At 9/24/2013 11:56:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM, luvx wrote:
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.

We tell them that they are still a child because thousands of years of dealing with them has taught adults that teens ARE still kids, even though most think they have it all figured out already. Twenty years from now you'll look back and be surprised at how not ready for adulthood you really were. Kids have always wanted the "freedom" of being an adult, but in reality that freedom brings lots more responsibility that most teens just aren't ready for yet. My kids were given control of the situations and decisions that they demonstrated the maturity and common sense to be able to handle.

If this is a problem for you then I suggest sitting down and telling your parents that you'd like more control and more rights to make decisions in your life. Demonstrate to them why you have shown the maturity necessary to be able to make good decisions. Ultimately though, you have to accept their decision because the law holds them responsible for your upbringing. They can get in legal trouble if they just turn everything over to you and you're out running around partying, having sex, skipping school, etc.

I say just chill out and enjoy your younger years, they won't last forever.

Some teens are capable of handling adult responsibilities, some aren't. We need more flexibility in the system. Yet some 30 year olds still aren't capable and we give them adult responsibilities when they aren't capable. We need to determine whose capable and who isn't. I'm also saying that if a teen destroys property or vandalizes then the parents should not be responsible. Our education system needs to change, just mandating the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic, what we require naturalized citizens to know) and everything else should be voluntary and relating to your field (if you want to become a nurse, you learn what is needed to become a nurse). Teens should have adult rights and responsibilities when they become competent (which is defined as "having reasonable age and mental capacity to be able to comprehend the nature and consequences of affairs") such as drinking alcohol and voting. I put " reasonable age" because we are not going to let 5 year olds vote. But some 12 year olds can vote. Some 12 year olds are influenced by their parents saying "Obama is better than Romney" but some aren't. We should have some flexibility in the system to distinguish the two. Back before the industrial revolution, 12 year olds would be getting married.

The fact that you think a 12 year old can exercise the proper judgment and be allowed to vote speaks volumes. You're barking up the wrong tree though because I don't think anyone under 35 should be allowed to vote.
luvx
Posts: 53
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9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 2:19:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 2:04:24 PM, luvx wrote:
At 9/24/2013 11:56:58 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:19:28 PM, luvx wrote:
Teens have very little control over their lives. They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves. They can't get a job without their parents' permission and permission from the state based on a medical exam, if they leave home without their parents' permission they can be reported as a runaway, returned home against their will and placed in the juvenile system and anything they buy, even with their own money can be taken from them by their parents at any time for any reason. They are forced in to a school system where their significance is diminished and they are forced to become dependent on their parents, who are only required to provide basic needs but make everything else a "privilege."

The school system was designed to direct people into 3 different paths: farm; factory; or college. Now that we no longer have the farm and the factory, school prepares us for college. Various features of school were incorporated from the factory including responding to a bell, separate facilities, separate specialized subjects, listening and doing as you are told without question and age segregation that resembles batches of the factory. Why do we learn with people the same age rather than the same interests or abilities? Why is the date of manufacture of the product important? This is why we learn with people the same age. And why should we assume that education should only take place at one stage of a person's life? Education can take place at any stage of a person's life, not just the early years.

The system of modern schooling was created outside the public eye and was centered on obedience, not intelligence. The idea of compulsory schooling paid by taxation was a revolutionary idea. At first, people were against the idea, claiming it was indoctrination, or not feasible. Before the industrial revolution, people got married and had full adult rights at puberty.

There were claims that the brain is not fully developed till 25. Our brains develop throughout life. Even at 70 your brain is still developing because the synopses in your brain reconnect constantly based on your experience, when your 40, your brain will be different at 70, but it doesn't necessarily make you wiser. Someone who is always angry is different than someone who is always happy.

So why do teens have immature brains? It's because we treat them immaturely. Their bodies tell them they are adults so they want to act like adults they want to significantly contribute to society, they want to have sex, have families and leave home but we tell them "you are a child" and we give all the control to the parents.

We tell them that they are still a child because thousands of years of dealing with them has taught adults that teens ARE still kids, even though most think they have it all figured out already. Twenty years from now you'll look back and be surprised at how not ready for adulthood you really were. Kids have always wanted the "freedom" of being an adult, but in reality that freedom brings lots more responsibility that most teens just aren't ready for yet. My kids were given control of the situations and decisions that they demonstrated the maturity and common sense to be able to handle.

If this is a problem for you then I suggest sitting down and telling your parents that you'd like more control and more rights to make decisions in your life. Demonstrate to them why you have shown the maturity necessary to be able to make good decisions. Ultimately though, you have to accept their decision because the law holds them responsible for your upbringing. They can get in legal trouble if they just turn everything over to you and you're out running around partying, having sex, skipping school, etc.

I say just chill out and enjoy your younger years, they won't last forever.

Some teens are capable of handling adult responsibilities, some aren't. We need more flexibility in the system. Yet some 30 year olds still aren't capable and we give them adult responsibilities when they aren't capable. We need to determine whose capable and who isn't. I'm also saying that if a teen destroys property or vandalizes then the parents should not be responsible. Our education system needs to change, just mandating the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic, what we require naturalized citizens to know) and everything else should be voluntary and relating to your field (if you want to become a nurse, you learn what is needed to become a nurse). Teens should have adult rights and responsibilities when they become competent (which is defined as "having reasonable age and mental capacity to be able to comprehend the nature and consequences of affairs") such as drinking alcohol and voting. I put " reasonable age" because we are not going to let 5 year olds vote. But some 12 year olds can vote. Some 12 year olds are influenced by their parents saying "Obama is better than Romney" but some aren't. We should have some flexibility in the system to distinguish the two. Back before the industrial revolution, 12 year olds would be getting married.

The fact that you think a 12 year old can exercise the proper judgment and be allowed to vote speaks volumes. You're barking up the wrong tree though because I don't think anyone under 35 should be allowed to vote.

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.
medic0506
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9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.
luvx
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9/24/2013 5:39:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.

Many stay at home parents who don't pay taxes. There are many people who still live at home with their parents and never put in an honest day's work, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient and they are in their 30's. Should they be barred from voting?

Before the industrial revolution, 12 year olds were getting married. Today it's CONVENTIONAL (and I said conventional) wisdom that 12 year olds shouldn't vote. Conventional wisdom isn't always right, and I disagree with conventional wisdom (the way most people think). Just look at 1800s England. It was conventional wisdom at that time that helping the poor will make them lazy and that poverty is a crime. Charles Dickens disagreed with that and wrote Oliver Twist to expose horrors of the workhouse he disagreed with. I disagree with not letting SOME (not all) 12 year olds vote.
medic0506
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9/24/2013 7:46:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 5:39:40 PM, luvx wrote:
At 9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.

Many stay at home parents who don't pay taxes. There are many people who still live at home with their parents and never put in an honest day's work, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient and they are in their 30's. Should they be barred from voting?

Yes...If they're 30 and haven't figured out how to get out of mom and dad's house yet, then yes they should be barred from voting. We have a term for those kinds of kids...Failure to launch.

Before the industrial revolution, 12 year olds were getting married.

12 year old girls were also prey to older men who wanted them as wives for sex and kept them barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. Today parents realize that a 12 year old is not emotionally ready for those things, and shouldn't be subjected to that treatment. We want our daughters to grow up strong, independent, and not in need of a man to take care of her. That allows her to be choosy about her partners, and pick one that she is actually in love with, rather than a man choosing her as if she were a piece of property. Which practice do you prefer??

Today it's CONVENTIONAL (and I said conventional) wisdom that 12 year olds shouldn't vote. Conventional wisdom isn't always right, and I disagree with conventional wisdom (the way most people think).

I agree, conventional wisdom isn't always right, but in this case it is.

Just look at 1800s England. It was conventional wisdom at that time that helping the poor will make them lazy and that poverty is a crime. Charles Dickens disagreed with that and wrote Oliver Twist to expose horrors of the workhouse he disagreed with. I disagree with not letting SOME (not all) 12 year olds vote.

If you let some vote and not others then that practice will be overturned by the legal system as discrimination. So in the end, all 12 year olds will end up being allowed to vote.

If you have to ask for permission, as well as a ride from mom or dad, just to get to the polling place then you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
muzebreak
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9/25/2013 8:16:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.

Why do any of the criterion you've mentioned, that a 12 year old likely wouldn't meet, matter at all to voting? Are you saying its impossible for a 12 year old to understand the issues to a degree that you believe should be required vote?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
medic0506
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9/25/2013 8:50:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/25/2013 8:16:35 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.

Why do any of the criterion you've mentioned, that a 12 year old likely wouldn't meet, matter at all to voting? Are you saying its impossible for a 12 year old to understand the issues to a degree that you believe should be required vote?

In order to be a competent voter, a person needs to have some grasp of the adult world. They need more than just a childish understanding of the issues so that they can have some idea of how a candidate's proposals will effect the country. There are important fiscal, social, and foreign policy decisions that they need to be aware of and knowledgeable about. Trusting those decisions to someone who has never even had to be self-sufficient in the adult world is just asking for an incompetent vote.

A second issue that comes into play is equal representation for taxpayers. All taxpayers get exactly one vote, making them all equal. How is it fair or democratic to also give equal representation rights to kids who have never had to work or pay into any of the systems that they will be affecting, with their vote?? A child's representative in an election is his/her parents. Giving that household extra voting power destroys the balance between contribution and fair representation for that contribution.
Andromeda_Z
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9/25/2013 10:59:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 2:18:43 PM, luvx wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Everybody matures at different levels. Some 14 year olds are more capable then some 30 year olds. I'm asking for more flexibility in the law to determine whose capable and who isn't.

What is your ideal solution to the problem you see here?
Andromeda_Z
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9/25/2013 11:05:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 4:18:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

Yes, his mother educated him. What exactly does that show that is relevant?

That shows that he may not have achieved as much as he did without the influence of his parents.


Also, if a minor really is capable of taking care of himself and can prove so by actually doing that, many states have provisions for emancipation. The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age. I don't even know if Sho Yano could. Sure, he could do stunningly well in academics, but there's a world of difference between academic pursuits and life skills. Want to test that, take everyone on DDO and toss them out on the streets until sundown, no internet. I bet half of them won't make it, or at least come back traumatized. :p

I was simply giving an example of someone who, at puberty, had the cognitive skills to care for themselves. I'm not here to argue that teens should all be given more rights, because I'm more inclined to agree with you. But I do think there should be better avenues to get those rights early. Like an exemption exam, or something of the sort.

An exemption exam could work well, especially if there was a practical component to it. Like, have a written part where you have to show that you deserve the right to enter into contracts because you can read them, that you can figure out how to make a budget, how to pay bills, get a job, and eat a somewhat-balanced diet and all that sort of stuff. Then a practical part where you actually go do that. Kind of like getting a drivers' license - show that you can read the street signs, then go out and show that you can drive, and then you're legally allowed to drive.
Andromeda_Z
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9/25/2013 11:07:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/24/2013 1:26:18 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age.

So you're agreeing with the OP?

"They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves."


The issue of age is totally irrelevant when it comes to any question other than "how old are you"?

My point is that we should not increase the rights of all teenagers because a select few can handle that. There should be provisions for the few that can, I'm not going to argue that, but teens in general should absolutely not have more legal rights than they already do.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/25/2013 11:57:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/25/2013 11:07:08 AM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/24/2013 1:26:18 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:47:08 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
At 9/23/2013 10:40:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/22/2013 3:41:50 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
Okay, so you want to think teenagers are capable of making rational decisions and it was better how we used to be able to get married and have full adult rights at puberty? Name one, just one, child (and yes you are a fvcking child) who is actually prepared for that at puberty. I'm not even prepared to accept full responsibility for myself and I'm damn near twenty, employed, and a college graduate! Extending the amount of time you are under the guidance of your parents will help you to learn the things you need to know to handle life. Things are a lot more complicated than they were back when you were an adult at puberty, so it takes longer to learn life.

Sho Yano.

"According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies." - taken from his page on Wikipedia

The rights of adults can and should be able to be granted early, but only if well earned, and the vast majority of minors (and hell, even adults) don't have the capacity to take care of themselves at such an early age.

So you're agreeing with the OP?

"They can't make healthcare decisions, even when they have the mental ability to decide for themselves."


The issue of age is totally irrelevant when it comes to any question other than "how old are you"?

My point is that we should not increase the rights of all teenagers because a select few can handle that. There should be provisions for the few that can, I'm not going to argue that, but teens in general should absolutely not have more legal rights than they already do.

That sig is awesome.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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9/25/2013 3:40:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/25/2013 8:50:05 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/25/2013 8:16:35 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 9/24/2013 4:51:00 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/24/2013 3:30:07 PM, luvx wrote:

I didn't say ALL 12 year olds should be allowed to vote, just those who prove to be competent and mature enough to vote.

There is no 12 year old that is competent and mature enough to understand the issues, and the consequences of proposed policy decisions. They've never put in an honest day's work, paid taxes, raised kids, been a wife or husband, or been self-sufficient for a single day of their lives. That isn't a knock against 12 year olds, but they haven't lived a day in the adult world and have no grasp of what's going on.

Arguing that a 12 year old can be competent to vote is evidence that you, yourself, aren't quite as mature and competent to make adult decisions, as you might think you are. That's not an insult, just a fact of life.

Why do any of the criterion you've mentioned, that a 12 year old likely wouldn't meet, matter at all to voting? Are you saying its impossible for a 12 year old to understand the issues to a degree that you believe should be required vote?

In order to be a competent voter, a person needs to have some grasp of the adult world. They need more than just a childish understanding of the issues so that they can have some idea of how a candidate's proposals will effect the country. There are important fiscal, social, and foreign policy decisions that they need to be aware of and knowledgeable about. Trusting those decisions to someone who has never even had to be self-sufficient in the adult world is just asking for an incompetent vote.

So age doesn't really factor into your equation, you just want people to understand what they're voting for?

OK.

Take, for example, Jacob Barnett. At 12 he was auditing college quantum physics classes. At 16 he now has a doctorate in quantum physics. If he could understand physics that you and me would struggled to grasp now, when he was 12, what makes you think he couldn't understand politics to a greater degree than either of us could hope to, at the same age?

Or how about Ramanujan, who, at 13, had mastered trigonometry, and was rediscovering theorems on his own, because he had nowhere to learn them.

Or how about Santiago Gonzalez. At fourteen he was working towards his bsce in comp sci, and paying his way through programming work.

There are children that, rather than simply meet them, absolutely demolish your above stated criteria. Albeit they are few and far between.


A second issue that comes into play is equal representation for taxpayers. All taxpayers get exactly one vote, making them all equal. How is it fair or democratic to also give equal representation rights to kids who have never had to work or pay into any of the systems that they will be affecting, with their vote??

So eighteen year olds who have never worked shouldn't be allowed to vote? Or what about 22 year old college students, riding through on full scholarships? Should these people not be allowed to vote either? And why does having played taxes matter?

A child's representative in an election is his/her parents.

That is so circular. A child's parents being their representative, is not good reason to keep a child's parents their representative.

Giving that household extra voting power destroys the balance between contribution and fair representation for that contribution.

So, what's the maximum number of voters we should allow per household? Can rich people have more because they contribute more?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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9/25/2013 6:25:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To the OP, no. They should have less. Far less.

But I'm cool with the drinking age being 16 for beer, wine and mixed drinks, and 18 for everything else.

But above all, kids should never be tried as adults... ever.
Tsar of DDO
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/25/2013 9:33:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/25/2013 3:40:20 PM, muzebreak wrote:

So age doesn't really factor into your equation, you just want people to understand what they're voting for?

OK.

Take, for example, Jacob Barnett. At 12 he was auditing college quantum physics classes. At 16 he now has a doctorate in quantum physics. If he could understand physics that you and me would struggled to grasp now, when he was 12, what makes you think he couldn't understand politics to a greater degree than either of us could hope to, at the same age?

Or how about Ramanujan, who, at 13, had mastered trigonometry, and was rediscovering theorems on his own, because he had nowhere to learn them.

Or how about Santiago Gonzalez. At fourteen he was working towards his bsce in comp sci, and paying his way through programming work.

There are children that, rather than simply meet them, absolutely demolish your above stated criteria. Albeit they are few and far between.

A higher intellect does not guarantee a more competent vote. A more competent vote demands experience with the issues faced in running government. Fiscal, social, and foreign policy issues are at the forefront, and there is no indication that students who are gifted in certain areas, have any knowledge or experience with the important issues. Someone who has never had to be self-sufficient, or raise a family, should not be given the same voting power as those who do those things on a daily basis, and provide the tax base to pay for all the things being voted on. It creates a "You get to decide for me, what I'm going to have to pay for, while not paying anything yourself", kind of situation. I believe that's very similar to the "No taxation without representation" concept that spawned the Boston Tea Party.

A second issue that comes into play is equal representation for taxpayers. All taxpayers get exactly one vote, making them all equal. How is it fair or democratic to also give equal representation rights to kids who have never had to work or pay into any of the systems that they will be affecting, with their vote??

So eighteen year olds who have never worked shouldn't be allowed to vote? Or what about 22 year old college students, riding through on full scholarships? Should these people not be allowed to vote either?

If you want my honest opinion, no they shouldn't be allowed to vote until they have lived and worked in the adult world, and started a family. Until then they're na"ve on the issues, and are drawing, not on experience with those issues, but on what someone else has taught them.

And why does having played taxes matter?

See above. Why should someone who doesn't contribute to the kitty, get an equal voice in how that kitty is spent with those who are the ones funding it??

A child's representative in an election is his/her parents.

That is so circular. A child's parents being their representative, is not good reason to keep a child's parents their representative.

Sure it is, so long as the parent is the one supporting the child and being legally responsible for him.

Giving that household extra voting power destroys the balance between contribution and fair representation for that contribution.

So, what's the maximum number of voters we should allow per household? Can rich people have more because they contribute more?

One vote per taxpaying/contributing adult. That would also allow a vote for housewives since, although they may not get paid a wage and pay taxes for what they do, they certainly contribute a great benefit to society and should be given a say.