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Equality

Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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10/20/2013 7:22:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who cares what people believe in? It's about what you can substantiate, not "believe." Not all opinions are equal/valid.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Mrs.Elegance
Posts: 2
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10/20/2013 8:01:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree completely. I asked this question because I really don't see why society is making a big deal out of it. People fear what they don't understand but if they were to ask it could be made to be understood. : At 10/20/2013 7:22:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Who cares what people believe in? It's about what you can substantiate, not "believe." Not all opinions are equal/valid.
~Mrs.Elegance~
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/20/2013 9:21:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, I don't believe in equality. Only gays should be allowed to marry. Lets start a new tradition.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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10/20/2013 10:05:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/20/2013 8:01:08 PM, Mrs.Elegance wrote:
I agree completely. I asked this question because I really don't see why society is making a big deal out of it. People fear what they don't understand but if they were to ask it could be made to be understood. : At 10/20/2013 7:22:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Who cares what people believe in? It's about what you can substantiate, not "believe." Not all opinions are equal/valid.

You mistake me for condoning equality.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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10/20/2013 11:46:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe in gay marriage, but for a variety of reasons. Yes, gay marriage is important for equality. If we are all equally human, then we should all have equal rights. But also, I think that marriage, as an institution, has important benefits (like promoting stability, and formalizing childcare relationships) that it would be pragmatic to extend to gay families. Why should the children of gay couples not have these benefits? It is utilitarian to back gay marriage. But, yes, equality is a vital component of my belief in it.
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LtCmdrData
Posts: 46
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10/20/2013 11:51:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Marriage is a human right. All humans should get it, even gay people. That's how it works.
Lt. Cmdr. Data

"I didn't ask him, but I doubt he would have sponsored lethal injection either. But I'll shoot him an e-mail since you suggested it." - Airmax http://www.debate.org...

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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/21/2013 1:06:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/20/2013 5:00:37 PM, Mrs.Elegance wrote:
Do you believe in equality and if so do you think that gay marriage is right or wrong?

The Fool: Do you mean equality in a religious sense? Or do you mean that there exists something, which is "the equality itself."

Can you give an example, of "the thing" which is "the equality"that you believe in?

Perhaps if you can give a demonstration of the equality, so we won't have a choice but to recognize that it is true and existing, and justified.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/21/2013 1:18:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/20/2013 11:51:26 PM, LtCmdrData wrote:
Marriage is a human right. All humans should get it, even gay people. That's how it works.

The Fool: I don't know, that sounds like it doesn't make any sense.

Isn't marriage, marriage? What are "the things" which are the "human rights", which are predicated, with properties,from which it follows that marriage is a part of that entity, in a way which it could never have been a part, and on its own, as it has been before the human rights were created. I've never seen them, myself but at least that's what I've heard.

Can you use your superior robot logic to calculate this out for me?
I would be much obliged..to know how this all works.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
LtCmdrData
Posts: 46
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10/21/2013 1:25:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 1:18:31 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/20/2013 11:51:26 PM, LtCmdrData wrote:
Marriage is a human right. All humans should get it, even gay people. That's how it works.

The Fool: I don't know, that sounds like it doesn't make any sense.

Isn't marriage, marriage? What are "the things" which are the "human rights", which are predicated, with properties,from which it follows that marriage is a part of that entity, in a way which it could never have been a part, and on its own, as it has been before the human rights were created. I've never seen them, myself but at least that's what I've heard.

Human rights are rights that, by virtue of their recognition across a broad swath of humanity, are contended to belong to all human beings. Personally, I find that argument very compelling, and would classify marriage as a human right insofar as it conforms to the above definition.

Can you use your superior robot logic to calculate this out for me?
I would be much obliged..to know how this all works.

I may be a robot, but that does not preclude me from detecting a note of condescension here.
Lt. Cmdr. Data

"I didn't ask him, but I doubt he would have sponsored lethal injection either. But I'll shoot him an e-mail since you suggested it." - Airmax http://www.debate.org...

"There is coffee in that nebula." Capt. Kathryn Janeway, FS Voyager
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/21/2013 2:01:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 1:25:00 AM, LtCmdrData wrote:
At 10/21/2013 1:18:31 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/20/2013 11:51:26 PM, LtCmdrData wrote:
Marriage is a human right. All humans should get it, even gay people. That's how it works.

The Fool: I don't know, that sounds like it doesn't make any sense.

Isn't marriage, marriage? What are "the things" which are the "human rights", which are predicated, with properties,from which it follows that marriage is a part of that entity, in a way which it could never have been a part, and on its own, as it has been before the human rights were created. I've never seen them, myself but at least that's what I've heard.

Human rights are rights that, by virtue of their recognition across a broad swath of humanity, are contended to belong to all human beings. Personally, I find that argument very compelling, and would classify marriage as a human right insofar as it conforms to the above definition.

Can you use your superior robot logic to calculate this out for me?
I would be much obliged..to know how this all works.

I may be a robot, but that does not preclude me from detecting a note of condescension here.

Human rights are rights that, by virtue of their recognition across a broad swath of humanity, are contended to belong to all human beings.

The Fool: What is the " entity" which is "the rights", let alone the human rights?

That is what is the thing "which exist" to be recognized, at all. In order for it to be possible that they be contented to belong to any humans at all.

it's a pretty small amount of people, in relation to all of Earth who have created them for themselves, and for others.

And how could they belong to humans and yet humans not know that they have them.
I mean they're not my mind, and they're not in my body.

Where would you say you say that they exist, and how are they attached humans in any way?

But perhaps I'm blind perhaps I just cannot find them, perhaps is knowledge only for a few people

Give an example of how they contend to belong?

Personally, I find that argument very compelling, and would classify marriage as a human right insofar as it conforms to the above definition.

The Fool: An argument consist of premises, which must be true, Facts, that exist, from which you can derive a conclusion, which follows from those facts..

The very, admittance, that you would classify marriage as a human right, is like admitting that their false.
Or that they exist, merely by virtue of personal classification.
That is, simply changing the label around..

So if what you say is true, It is true in the same sense, that if we call "the moon" and "the sun", the moon itself will transform before our very eyes and turn into the sun.

But I'm sure, a superior robot logician like yourself already has the refutation covered.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/21/2013 2:15:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 2:01:01 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:

Data: I may be a robot, but that does not preclude me from detecting a note of condescension here.

The Fool: Don't take it too personal, I'm intentionally giving you a hard time. I'm completely up to no good right now, and should go to bed.
That's what I do. No seriously, I give everybody a hard time.

I'm not against gays having a the equivalent of marriage, I'm just against fundamentalist assertions which are supposed to in fact be actual justifications, when they are pretty much just as dogmatic and Baseless, as the ones which prevent them from getting Married.

Don't get me wrong, they happen to be morally superior and a better set of noble lies than the last one, but in the end, lies that will have to be surpassed for something better and more justified. Eventually. I mean people are going to get smarter, and realize that, it just doesn't make sense, to claim that there are these mystical entities, which people have, and don't know they have only certain people have known about it.

It's just not intellectually plausible..
,
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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10/21/2013 3:18:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Gay marriage is not 'equality' - it's government subsidized same sex partners.. nothing to do with equality.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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10/21/2013 6:58:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We are equal morally as human beings. However, there is no such thing as absolute equality, every individual is unique in different aspects.

Lets say some people are born with wings that allows them to fly. There are two ways to achieve equality in that aspect:
1- Find a way to make everyone grow wings, or a way to make the next generation have wings.
2- Clip the wings.

The first solution is not achievable with our technology, and we can't distribute our traits. So to achieve absolute equality, we have to cripple the athletics, dumb down the intelligent, scar the beautiful, and so forth.

So the only common equality is in our value as human beings, which is the thing that matters. The only difference that should be judged is our actions.

---

And then there is the issue of gay marriage.
Look, humans are heterosexuals. Everyone except hermaphrodites are either males or females. Heterosexuality is an objective physical reality. Every sexual feeling is rooted in our heterosexual biology.
Every other sexual orientation are mere states of mind. Therefore, they are not equal to heterosexuality, as they would need their own physiology.
It is impossible to recognize that someone is from a sexual orientation, unless they act or claim to act in a certain way unique to that sexual orientation. There is no blood or DNA test. There is nothing objective about sexual orientations.

What gets people confused is the issue of sexual orientation, which are thoughts and feelings. Heterosexuals and homosexuals are equal on that aspects, but so are pedophiles and zoophiles and every imaginable sexual orientation.
Thoughts are abstracts. The effect of people with a pedophile orientation or some rapist orientation if they never act on these desire is zero. Desires and thoughts are harmless, no matter how unpleasant they are, if they are never acted upon.

Furthermore, thoughts and feelings are a state of mind, states of mind are subjective, they are subject to change. Although they have a reputation of their ability to be quite persistent, someone can change his preferences or how he feels about something.
They are not consciously chosen (Although acting upon them is). However, there are thoughts and desires for everything; someone can desire to punch a grandmother, someone can desire to choke his neighbor, someone can desire to rob a store. Desires have no implication on whether we should do an action.
Unless rape is involved, every sexual act is a conscious behavior. So judging a sexual orientation, assuming it is meaningful, is fair game.

We need a standard for judgment, sexual orientation on it's own is a meaningless standard. What differentiate sexual orientations is behavior. Laws favors an opinion over an other, thus laws discriminate against behaviors.
Marriage is a social institution. So why should the government care about supporting a supposedly private cultural behavior desired by a group of people? Wouldn't it make more sense to endorse heterosexuality which is necessary for the survival of societies? There are also the higher health risks that come with homosexuality.

The fact is: The law doesn't care about love. You want to love? Nobody is stopping you. Go love your family, go love your friends, go love your partner. There is no check box that says "In love" in any official document.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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10/21/2013 10:44:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course gay marriage should be legal, not everyone's opinion deserves to be respected or even acknowledged by that I mean the fundamentalists.
Turn around, go back.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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10/21/2013 11:29:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 10:44:51 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Of course gay marriage should be legal, not everyone's opinion deserves to be respected or even acknowledged by that I mean the fundamentalists.

And yet, your opinion is expected to be respect and acknowledged. Go equality!
LtCmdrData
Posts: 46
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10/21/2013 1:11:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 2:15:10 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/21/2013 2:01:01 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:

Data: I may be a robot, but that does not preclude me from detecting a note of condescension here.

The Fool: Don't take it too personal, I'm intentionally giving you a hard time. I'm completely up to no good right now, and should go to bed.
That's what I do. No seriously, I give everybody a hard time.

I'm not against gays having a the equivalent of marriage, I'm just against fundamentalist assertions which are supposed to in fact be actual justifications, when they are pretty much just as dogmatic and Baseless, as the ones which prevent them from getting Married.

Don't get me wrong, they happen to be morally superior and a better set of noble lies than the last one, but in the end, lies that will have to be surpassed for something better and more justified. Eventually. I mean people are going to get smarter, and realize that, it just doesn't make sense, to claim that there are these mystical entities, which people have, and don't know they have only certain people have known about it.

It's just not intellectually plausible..
,

I would debate that with you. Resolved: Human rights exist. Let me know if you're up for it.
Lt. Cmdr. Data

"I didn't ask him, but I doubt he would have sponsored lethal injection either. But I'll shoot him an e-mail since you suggested it." - Airmax http://www.debate.org...

"There is coffee in that nebula." Capt. Kathryn Janeway, FS Voyager
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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10/21/2013 2:37:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 11:29:57 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 10/21/2013 10:44:51 AM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Of course gay marriage should be legal, not everyone's opinion deserves to be respected or even acknowledged by that I mean the fundamentalists.

And yet, your opinion is expected to be respect and acknowledged. Go equality!

Of course it isn't. No one has to respect my opinion. Your clearly not reading nor understanding what I posted.
Turn around, go back.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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10/21/2013 2:49:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Equality until illogical.

That is to say, while I believe that men and women should have equal rights to get a job, there shouldn't be a gender quota for women in for physically straining tasks (like a fire fighter), because women by nature are less capable to do such tasks.

If science says that there is a significant difference in the way men and women act in a given situation (like girls with Barbies, vs boys with G.I. Joes), then that inequality needs to be taken into account, and not discarded for the sake of the misogynistic/misandrious ideologies.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown