Total Posts:59|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Suicide as Selfish

AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 1:18:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This has to be one of the most disturbed ideas held in our society. It sounds almost as if it's in justification, as if the people who state such are actually looking to justify their own selfishness and cowardice by the aftermath of suicide. I mean, way to completely underappreciate a happening. A person has just died, so traumatised by life that he/she could not live on, and we call them selfish? That's the first thing that springs to mind? No, I don't think so. I think it's a person's own selfishness and cowardice that are the first things that spring to mind.

I've known one suicide victim intimately and he was a misguided hero, a child unable to live with his selfish conception of himself, unable to live with his conception of himself as a monster.

Was Heath Ledger selfish or was he trying to control a demon?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 1:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Many actions can be considered selfish or harmful when you look at the big picture.

However, the mental state when one's about to commit suicide is questionable, it is very possible to end up regretting thinking about suicide after a failed attempt.
I see no rational reason to attempt suicide. I guess emotional argument can be powerful in their own way.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 1:54:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 1:42:55 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Shut up bro.

I find no compelling reason to do so.

I am not saying that suicides victims are cowards. They may genuinly believe that this is the right thing to do, or that this is being just with themselves.
I've been in a similar situation. What I am saying is that the reasons to commit suicide are based on bad logic.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 1:56:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes I agree that they are, who the f*ck cares though? You're gonna opt with calling them stupid rather than selfish, is it?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 2:17:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Being wrong does not imply stupidity.
They went through a lot, and I am full of sympathy. But really, emotion overpowers reason with extreme emotional states like depression and anger.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 2:37:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 1:18:15 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
This has to be one of the most disturbed ideas held in our society. It sounds almost as if it's in justification, as if the people who state such are actually looking to justify their own selfishness and cowardice by the aftermath of suicide. I mean, way to completely underappreciate a happening. A person has just died, so traumatised by life that he/she could not live on, and we call them selfish? That's the first thing that springs to mind? No, I don't think so. I think it's a person's own selfishness and cowardice that are the first things that spring to mind.

I've known one suicide victim intimately and he was a misguided hero, a child unable to live with his selfish conception of himself, unable to live with his conception of himself as a monster.

Was Heath Ledger selfish or was he trying to control a demon?

I think it stems from wanting to make it very clear to a suicidal person that their actions will have consequences. As a general rule, when someone is at that point in their life, they DO cease to think of the repercussions to others of their actions, which IS selfish. The guy who blows his brains out while his kids are playing hopscotch in the yard definitely has problems--but he almost as definitely doesn't even consider the problems he causes (having his kids find his bloody mess, forcing his family to have it cleaned up...not to mention the death itself).

I've dealt with a lot of suicidal people--I have to, in my job. I see their selfishness as a symptom of their much larger problem. But it is still present--and sometimes it can help jar them out of their obsessive behavior towards their own demise a bit to point that out. "Sure, let's say it would solve all your problems to shoot yourself in the head...but what about everyone else? Your family?" etc. etc. (Obviously, I wouldn't say it like that)

I actually think that suicide is not inherently wrong...just almost always generally is. Similarly, I think there are occasions when it's not selfish.

But the vast majority of suicidal people have reached a point (for whatever reason) where, in addition to their overarching problems, they aren't thinking clearly...and an aspect of that usually manifests itself as a complete disregard for others (or a self-blinding justifying).

So I think there's value in thinking of it. And I think there's value in that being the "knee-jerk" reaction, too, in the hopes that that societal knee-jerk translates into individuals having a knee-jerk reaction to think about the consequences--because it's already hard for them to think of them.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 3:32:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 2:37:25 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 1:18:15 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
This has to be one of the most disturbed ideas held in our society. It sounds almost as if it's in justification, as if the people who state such are actually looking to justify their own selfishness and cowardice by the aftermath of suicide. I mean, way to completely underappreciate a happening. A person has just died, so traumatised by life that he/she could not live on, and we call them selfish? That's the first thing that springs to mind? No, I don't think so. I think it's a person's own selfishness and cowardice that are the first things that spring to mind.

I've known one suicide victim intimately and he was a misguided hero, a child unable to live with his selfish conception of himself, unable to live with his conception of himself as a monster.

Was Heath Ledger selfish or was he trying to control a demon?

I think it stems from wanting to make it very clear to a suicidal person that their actions will have consequences. As a general rule, when someone is at that point in their life, they DO cease to think of the repercussions to others of their actions, which IS selfish. The guy who blows his brains out while his kids are playing hopscotch in the yard definitely has problems--but he almost as definitely doesn't even consider the problems he causes (having his kids find his bloody mess, forcing his family to have it cleaned up...not to mention the death itself).

I disagree with you on a lot of things here. First of all, suicide is very common amongst those who have done great wrongs by means of negligence or other forgivable means. These people, however, are then often not able to trust themselves, and subsequently do away with themselves, for other people. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. And then how is to call these people selfish for their selfless act to help anyway? It makes no sense. Secondly, for those who aren't so selfless, suicide is generally committed when they lose control, as in the case of Hitler for example. How is it to help to call these people selfish? They have fully succumbed to selfishness and are pretty much relishing in one last act of control. Heath Ledger killed himself because he so owned the monster that is the Joker, he took his own life as a selfless act, IMO, and to call him selfish for it is just monstrous. IMO, to call anyone selfish for their suicide is monstrous and nonsensical, and then why? Because we're the selfish cowards trying to play off our own faults on others, these people did it wrong, they caused suffering, ergo we're right. It's the whole "Look at how badly communism has worked so far" bit all over again.

I've dealt with a lot of suicidal people--I have to, in my job. I see their selfishness as a symptom of their much larger problem. But it is still present--and sometimes it can help jar them out of their obsessive behavior towards their own demise a bit to point that out. "Sure, let's say it would solve all your problems to shoot yourself in the head...but what about everyone else? Your family?" etc. etc. (Obviously, I wouldn't say it like that)

I agree with you, but you do many a great injustice then when you apply the label of "selfish" to the person because he or she commits suicide. He or she was utterly selfish prior to their suicide if no thought was given to those around them. Hitler, for example, wasn't selfish for his suicide, he was a straight up monster. And then why brand them with this label, why tar all with the same brush? Because it's self-justifying.

I actually think that suicide is not inherently wrong...just almost always generally is. Similarly, I think there are occasions when it's not selfish.

But the vast majority of suicidal people have reached a point (for whatever reason) where, in addition to their overarching problems, they aren't thinking clearly...and an aspect of that usually manifests itself as a complete disregard for others (or a self-blinding justifying).

So I think there's value in thinking of it. And I think there's value in that being the "knee-jerk" reaction, too, in the hopes that that societal knee-jerk translates into individuals having a knee-jerk reaction to think about the consequences--because it's already hard for them to think of them.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 3:40:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It achieves nothing to call the selfish selfish, and then they're not the only ones who commit suicide. Why do it?
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 3:42:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why the assault on a person who has just died? It's not just because that's what people perceive. How the f*ck do they know what's going on in a suicide victim's head?
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:20:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.

no you definitely misinterpreted dragonfangs argument. he was in no way "putting a dead person down."
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:20:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Otherwise it is not others these people are caring about at all in their labeling, but themselves, and then how hypocritical is that? It's one or the other.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:22:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:20:01 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.

no you definitely misinterpreted dragonfangs argument. he was in no way "putting a dead person down."

He wasn't saying anything at all. I never accused him of putting anyone down, just brought what he was saying to its logical conclusion as regards this thread.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:24:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:22:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:20:01 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.

no you definitely misinterpreted dragonfangs argument. he was in no way "putting a dead person down."

He wasn't saying anything at all. I never accused him of putting anyone down, just brought what he was saying to its logical conclusion as regards this thread.

No you blatantly targeted with the start of your usual volley of civilized insults.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:25:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Furthermore, I don't quite agree with him. Perhaps it's lack of trust in themselves that the people he's talking about kill themselves for. I mean maybe they are even possibly taking death selfishly in their minds, but they see it as the most trustworthy route to take? He doesn't know. I personally trust myself somewhat more than that, though, or have come to trust myself more than that anyway.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:25:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:22:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:20:01 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.

no you definitely misinterpreted dragonfangs argument. he was in no way "putting a dead person down."

He wasn't saying anything at all. I never accused him of putting anyone down, just brought what he was saying to its logical conclusion as regards this thread.

but thankfully he decided to be the bigger man keep it clean and then back out before there was no end in sight
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:26:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:24:51 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:22:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:20:01 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:17:57 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:11:47 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
I think you are perceiving what they're saying the wrong way

No I'm not. It's a very generally applied label and one that should, outside of anything underlying, be perceived to be applied largely in ignorance. And then why? How can a person be so quick to put down another who has died? Obviously there is precognition.

no you definitely misinterpreted dragonfangs argument. he was in no way "putting a dead person down."

He wasn't saying anything at all. I never accused him of putting anyone down, just brought what he was saying to its logical conclusion as regards this thread.

No you blatantly targeted with the start of your usual volley of civilized insults.

I didn't appreciate his post, sure.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:26:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Furthermore though, this:

At 10/21/2013 5:25:35 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Furthermore, I don't quite agree with him. Perhaps it's lack of trust in themselves that the people he's talking about kill themselves for. I mean maybe they are even possibly taking death selfishly in their minds, but they see it as the most trustworthy route to take? He doesn't know. I personally trust myself somewhat more than that, though, or have come to trust myself more than that anyway.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:28:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No doubt about it either, his post was just to say people who commit suicide are stupid, and then he's wrong. That post didn't belong in this thread. I was speaking out against labeling people who commit suicide as selfish and he comes in and says "but they're definitely stupid".
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:30:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yeah, f*ck Dragonfang actually, he was definitely just standing up for his dumb preconceived notions.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:32:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
cybertron I'm not here to put people down dude, but I'll do it when it's necessary and it's nearly always necessary. Maybe I should go back to not trusting myself, though.

I spend my days on here speaking blinding sense with nobody listening though, all of them too wrapped up in their own bullsh*t, and I was rather civil to start.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:32:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:28:31 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
No doubt about it either, his post was just to say people who commit suicide are stupid, and then he's wrong. That post didn't belong in this thread. I was speaking out against labeling people who commit suicide as selfish and he comes in and says "but they're definitely stupid".

what he was saying was that suicide is bad logic. people who think its better for everyone that they not be in the world should take some steps before it even gets to that. thats the problem with suicide: they quit and take the easy way. if anything they're quitters who still had potential
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:36:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:32:55 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:28:31 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
No doubt about it either, his post was just to say people who commit suicide are stupid, and then he's wrong. That post didn't belong in this thread. I was speaking out against labeling people who commit suicide as selfish and he comes in and says "but they're definitely stupid".

what he was saying was that suicide is bad logic. people who think its better for everyone that they not be in the world should take some steps before it even gets to that. thats the problem with suicide: they quit and take the easy way. if anything they're quitters who still had potential

No, he was protecting one preconceived notion he had, my having put down another widely-held preconceived notion. And then maybe these people fear what they might do to others taking any other way. Maybe they're not just quitters but trying to mitigate they damage they might do.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:37:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:36:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:32:55 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:28:31 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
No doubt about it either, his post was just to say people who commit suicide are stupid, and then he's wrong. That post didn't belong in this thread. I was speaking out against labeling people who commit suicide as selfish and he comes in and says "but they're definitely stupid".

what he was saying was that suicide is bad logic. people who think its better for everyone that they not be in the world should take some steps before it even gets to that. thats the problem with suicide: they quit and take the easy way. if anything they're quitters who still had potential

No, he was protecting one preconceived notion he had, my having put down another widely-held preconceived notion. And then maybe these people fear what they might do to others taking any other way. Maybe they're not just quitters but trying to mitigate they damage they might do.

You're against what the nazi's and the kkk did?
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:37:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I didn't appreciate the irrelevance of his post in this thread at all dude, forgive me that will ya?
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:39:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:37:45 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I didn't appreciate the irrelevance of his post in this thread at all dude, forgive me that will ya?

answer the question and you will see where i am going with this
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2013 5:39:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/21/2013 5:37:17 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:36:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:32:55 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 10/21/2013 5:28:31 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
No doubt about it either, his post was just to say people who commit suicide are stupid, and then he's wrong. That post didn't belong in this thread. I was speaking out against labeling people who commit suicide as selfish and he comes in and says "but they're definitely stupid".

what he was saying was that suicide is bad logic. people who think its better for everyone that they not be in the world should take some steps before it even gets to that. thats the problem with suicide: they quit and take the easy way. if anything they're quitters who still had potential

No, he was protecting one preconceived notion he had, my having put down another widely-held preconceived notion. And then maybe these people fear what they might do to others taking any other way. Maybe they're not just quitters but trying to mitigate they damage they might do.

You're against what the nazi's and the kkk did?

Huh, yeah? Also, on the point of quitters, what did Heath Ledger quit? Wealth and fame and a huge audience? Why did he kill himself after starring as the Joker? No trust in himself.