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I"m attracted to trans women

slo1
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10/23/2013 8:06:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.salon.com...

I never thought I would have to come out about being attracted to women. But that"s the funny and sad position I"m in these days. Although I don"t see anything different about my sexual orientation, most people do.

About four years ago, I was an exchange student in Thailand, a country known for its large, open transgender population. While most men avoided trans women, I saw no difference between them and cisgender women (women who were born biologically female). I was attracted to trans women, in other words, and I spent the next three years of my life in confusion and shame.

The heteronormative world in which we live had successfully convinced me that being attracted to transgender women meant I had a fetish. I began questioning my sexuality and even my masculinity. I didn"t even know what to call my sexual orientation. Finally one day, after hours of searching, I came across two terms that described what I was feeling. Trans-attraction and trans-orientation. Neither one is official or common, but their use is growing due to the increasing demand for a way to categorize people who are attracted to transgender people. When I saw these words, a feeling of relief washed over me: I was not alone. I don"t always describe myself as trans-attracted, but the label helped me feel like I had a place in the queer community and it helps others understand my sexuality.


...............
slo1
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10/23/2013 8:14:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I saw this article and my first though was, "who in goodness sake would admit to this"? He has got sacks of steel and upon thinking about it he has to have courage of steel to deal with the down stream firestorm that is going to happen. You know he is going to get death threats, right?

I expect to hear all the erroneous rationalizations.

1. It is not natural because can't reproduce.
2. If it becomes socially acceptable it will cause an increase in this type of behavior.
3. It is technically from a genetic standpoint homosexuality.
4. It is immoral and God smites down immoral societies.

However once again we have to endure the facade that social conservatives play by expressing a love for liberty and freedom except for in cases where it is against their morality. Can't have it both ways.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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10/23/2013 12:54:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ouch...

So, slo1, you believe for some reason that trans are legitimate victims that should recieve special rights?
Victims of what exactly?
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/23/2013 3:10:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/23/2013 12:54:19 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Ouch...

So, slo1, you believe for some reason that trans are legitimate victims that should recieve special rights?
Victims of what exactly?

Social stigmatization.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
slo1
Posts: 4,308
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10/23/2013 8:11:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/23/2013 12:54:19 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Ouch...

So, slo1, you believe for some reason that trans are legitimate victims that should recieve special rights?
Victims of what exactly?

Not certain how came to this inference. I dont think that transgender folk should have any special rights. They should have the same rights. They do get discriminated against. I just read article a transgendered female was denied mammogram when felt a density in breast because she has genetics of male. Anyone who reads any medical writtings knows that those taking estrogen are at increased risk for breast cancer among other risks.

Rwgardless, I just posted thus article cuz the guy was very brave and it was surprising.

Sorry typing on my phone.
Dragonfang
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10/24/2013 4:37:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Everyone is a victim of discrimination based on behavior and achievements. As long as it is rational and not aimed at something uncontrollable, there is nothing wrong in having an unfavorable opinion.

Transsexuality is simply illogical. If transsexuals are victims of anything, they are victims of reality. They wish they were from the opposite gender, well, unfortunately they are not. Napoleon wishes he was taller, unfortunately he is not. Bob wishes he had a harley that can fly and travel in time, unfortunately, he doesn't. John wishes he was rich and omniscient, unfortunately, he is not.
We can have an unlimited amount of wishes. However, believing that pretending that our wish is true will make it true is simply a delusion, a wishful thinking fallacy.
Pretending they are something they are not is not compassionate or tolerant, it is lying to them and ourselves.
I have no problem with transgenders. But government legalizations that would force people to share a delusion of people who define themselves based on mutable sexual behaviors while ignoring objective reality? Why should someone be forced into a compromising situation where he have to make a special exception because someone would like to pretend he/she is from the other gender?

An obvious appeal to belief. Tell me, is the principle different from "The emperor's new clothes" story? Is it different from an enslaved African who believes he is born in the wrong body, and he is actually white because he have thoughts about freedom?

If transsexuals want to make an argument about why society should change it's gender roles instead, sure. But really, what they are currently asking for is very silly.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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10/24/2013 8:08:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:37:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Everyone is a victim of discrimination based on behavior and achievements. As long as it is rational and not aimed at something uncontrollable, there is nothing wrong in having an unfavorable opinion.

At 10/24/2013 4:37:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Transsexuality is simply illogical. If transsexuals are victims of anything, they are victims of reality. They wish they were from the opposite gender, well, unfortunately they are not. Napoleon wishes he was taller, unfortunately he is not. Bob wishes he had a harley that can fly and travel in time, unfortunately, he doesn't. John wishes he was rich and omniscient, unfortunately, he is not.

Someone doesn't understand transsexuality. Hint: That someone is you. Transsexuals exhibit a significant amount of distress over their body, and it feels fundamentally wrong to them; it is not an idle wish.

As far as reality, no one is saying that someone who identifies as female and was born male is, biologically, female.
Graincruncher
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10/24/2013 8:15:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 8:08:28 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
Someone doesn't understand transsexuality. Hint: That someone is you. Transsexuals exhibit a significant amount of distress over their body, and it feels fundamentally wrong to them; it is not an idle wish.

As far as reality, no one is saying that someone who identifies as female and was born male is, biologically, female.

Don't mind Dragonfang, he doesn't understand anything. I'm 95% sure he's a troll simply because I refuse to believe there is anyone that stupid in the world.

With regard to the opening post; good for him. I find it equally baffling and morally abhorrent that anyone thinks they've got the right to dictate how other consenting adults conduct their private lives and matters of the heart.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/24/2013 10:43:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:37:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Everyone is a victim of discrimination based on behavior and achievements. As long as it is rational and not aimed at something uncontrollable, there is nothing wrong in having an unfavorable opinion.

Transsexuality is simply illogical. If transsexuals are victims of anything, they are victims of reality. They wish they were from the opposite gender, well, unfortunately they are not. Napoleon wishes he was taller, unfortunately he is not. Bob wishes he had a harley that can fly and travel in time, unfortunately, he doesn't. John wishes he was rich and omniscient, unfortunately, he is not.
We can have an unlimited amount of wishes. However, believing that pretending that our wish is true will make it true is simply a delusion, a wishful thinking fallacy.
Pretending they are something they are not is not compassionate or tolerant, it is lying to them and ourselves.
I have no problem with transgenders. But government legalizations that would force people to share a delusion of people who define themselves based on mutable sexual behaviors while ignoring objective reality? Why should someone be forced into a compromising situation where he have to make a special exception because someone would like to pretend he/she is from the other gender?

An obvious appeal to belief. Tell me, is the principle different from "The emperor's new clothes" story? Is it different from an enslaved African who believes he is born in the wrong body, and he is actually white because he have thoughts about freedom?

If transsexuals want to make an argument about why society should change it's gender roles instead, sure. But really, what they are currently asking for is very silly.

If you're having trouble understanding gender dysphoria, allow me to explain it a bit.

Transgender people aren't transgender because they thought it'd be fun. They are transgender most likely because of the presence of neuron patterns typical of the opposite gender, as well as other physiological differences. The presence of these physiological differences is established fact, and is not up for dispute:
http://www.newscientist.com...
Now, obviously, we don't get to choose our physiology, so any attempt to continue arguing that it is a choice will ultimately be futile.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@Citrakayah
That corresponds with the definition of a wish.
A delusion can result from gender identity disorder or dysphoria. Transexuals can be ready to make tremendous sacrifices to sustain a fallacious perception of reality. As I said, the solution is not pretending something is true. The word "Transexual" implies that a person undergoes transition to an other sex. This is, of course, impossible for any non-hermaphrodite.

I am sympathetic with them, but really. This is begging people for suspension of disbelief, and attempt to force people to surrender to irrationality.
There is no evidence to the claim of "Pre-natal hormones affected the brain, but not the body".

@Graincruncher
I find it hilarious when people's ace card in arguments is to call people childish names. I usually take that as a sign of inability to engage in intelligent discussion and frustration. Brings a smile to my face.

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/24/2013 10:06:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/23/2013 8:06:37 AM, slo1 wrote:
http://www.salon.com...

I never thought I would have to come out about being attracted to women. But that"s the funny and sad position I"m in these days. Although I don"t see anything different about my sexual orientation, most people do.

About four years ago, I was an exchange student in Thailand, a country known for its large, open transgender population. While most men avoided trans women, I saw no difference between them and cisgender women (women who were born biologically female). I was attracted to trans women, in other words, and I spent the next three years of my life in confusion and shame.

The heteronormative world in which we live had successfully convinced me that being attracted to transgender women meant I had a fetish. I began questioning my sexuality and even my masculinity. I didn"t even know what to call my sexual orientation. Finally one day, after hours of searching, I came across two terms that described what I was feeling. Trans-attraction and trans-orientation. Neither one is official or common, but their use is growing due to the increasing demand for a way to categorize people who are attracted to transgender people. When I saw these words, a feeling of relief washed over me: I was not alone. I don"t always describe myself as trans-attracted, but the label helped me feel like I had a place in the queer community and it helps others understand my sexuality.


...............

I'm attracted to trans-fats.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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10/24/2013 10:46:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
DrHead: I didn't

At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
@Citrakayah
That corresponds with the definition of a wish.
A delusion can result from gender identity disorder or dysphoria. Transexuals can be ready to make tremendous sacrifices to sustain a fallacious perception of reality. As I said, the solution is not pretending something is true. The word "Transexual" implies that a person undergoes transition to an other sex. This is, of course, impossible for any non-hermaphrodite.

No, it's not. Sex reassignment surgery exists. And not all transsexuals undergo surgery, anyway. More than a few simple, say, dress as the opposite gender because it fits with their identity.

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

1. Neuroplasticity has its limits.
2. Changing your brain takes work, and isn't certain to work even if you try. And you very well may end up driving yourself near mad, heavens knows I've done that in a struggle for perfect control and remaining inconspicuous.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

It is a developmental disorder. The difference is that it innately causes objective harm to act on pedophilia.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

Actually, it sort of has, given our knowledge of how hormone cascades work.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/25/2013 1:45:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Neuroplasticity is a bit irrelevant in this case unless you can figure out a way to rewire their brain back.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

Nice oversimplification. I never argued that all brain differences were set in stone. Your arguments are absolutely pathetic.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

If you read the article (or comprehended it), you would have seen that white matter development is ongoing for the first few years of life (age 0-5). White matter development is what is being dealt with here. In fact, the article stated that about 40% of transsexuals noticed gender variance by age 5.

However, your argument about neuroplasticity is still quite irrelevant for the simple reason that it is a doctor's job to treat a condition, or to help the patient deal with the symptoms if treatment is impossible, as is currently the case with gender dysphoria. Until you find a way to cure gender dysphoria by reversing any changes in brain structure (and can do so in an ethical manner), you won't accomplish anything by b*tching about how you think it is unnatural, especially with clear physiological differences being present in those with gender dysphoria.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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10/25/2013 2:37:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 10:46:15 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
DrHead: I didn't

At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
@Citrakayah
That corresponds with the definition of a wish.
A delusion can result from gender identity disorder or dysphoria. Transexuals can be ready to make tremendous sacrifices to sustain a fallacious perception of reality. As I said, the solution is not pretending something is true. The word "Transexual" implies that a person undergoes transition to an other sex. This is, of course, impossible for any non-hermaphrodite.

No, it's not. Sex reassignment surgery exists. And not all transsexuals undergo surgery, anyway. More than a few simple, say, dress as the opposite gender because it fits with their identity.

Cosmetic surgery exists, "sex reassignment surgery" is a very inaccurate name, no?
As I said, the initial goal is impossible. What should we call identifying as the other sex while not being from the other sex? Dreaming? Fantasizing? Wishing? Pretending? Role-Playing? Masquerading? Disguising?
Can you find a description that relates to reality?

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

1. Neuroplasticity has its limits.
2. Changing your brain takes work, and isn't certain to work even if you try. And you very well may end up driving yourself near mad, heavens knows I've done that in a struggle for perfect control and remaining inconspicuous.

1- Determinate those limits. Are you claiming that there are behaviors hard-wired beyond change?
2- It hardly ever is. Thoughts and desires on their own are morally neutral for the person to possess them, no matter how unpleasant they are, the person is not judged for having them for they are not consciously chosen, they have zero social effect if they are never acted upon.
However, if the are non-sense, they are still non-sense regardless of possessing them or not. If the behavior resulting from acting on the desire is harmful (To the individual or/and others) it is still harmful. Society and laws requires us to suppress particular desires and not translate them into behavior.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

It is a developmental disorder. The difference is that it innately causes objective harm to act on pedophilia.

Prove it then. Show that brain differences are present from birth, and not the result of training or experience.

Also, noticed that you distinguished pedophilia based on their actions. Which means you agree that people are responsible for their conscious behavior even if desire exists. So I really don't see which point you disagree with.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

Actually, it sort of has, given our knowledge of how hormone cascades work.

Really? So where do Kisspeptin-GPR54 peptide and KISS-1 gene come in? Aren't children suppose to experience their sexuality physically (including the brain) and mentally with puberty hormones?
The most rational answer is simply gender identity disorder.
Dragonfang
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10/25/2013 4:11:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 1:45:17 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Neuroplasticity is a bit irrelevant in this case unless you can figure out a way to rewire their brain back.

The brain is always in a state of rewiring. If you haven't noticed, these are the results, not the cause. The solution is relatively simple to come up with, start "training" our brains to think more rationally about our gender. The results depends on the person.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

Nice oversimplification. I never argued that all brain differences were set in stone. Your arguments are absolutely pathetic.

So in an other word, you concede that engaging in transexual behavior is a choice?
Either that, or you arguing the "some" brain differences (particularly, transexuality) are set in stone. If so, then kindly provide evidence.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

If you read the article (or comprehended it), you would have seen that white matter development is ongoing for the first few years of life (age 0-5). White matter development is what is being dealt with here. In fact, the article stated that about 40% of transsexuals noticed gender variance by age 5.

However, your argument about neuroplasticity is still quite irrelevant for the simple reason that it is a doctor's job to treat a condition, or to help the patient deal with the symptoms if treatment is impossible, as is currently the case with gender dysphoria. Until you find a way to cure gender dysphoria by reversing any changes in brain structure (and can do so in an ethical manner), you won't accomplish anything by b*tching about how you think it is unnatural, especially with clear physiological differences being present in those with gender dysphoria.

What do you know, plasticity includes white matter!
You are suggesting that psychiatrists should encourage people to surrender to irrational beliefs if it is easier for them to do so. I really doubt many psychiatrists agree with you. All patterns of thoughts and behaviors should be changeable. If we don't know how to treat them properly, then we should research and learn how to.
Transexuals noticed gender variation from a younger age alright, however they most likely received a gender identity disorder.

I hardly care about any thing people do in their private time, as long it does not have a significant negative direct or indirect effect on public good.
So my only problem with transexuals is when they demand to force others to share their perception of reality through law.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/26/2013 12:10:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:11:12 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 10/25/2013 1:45:17 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Neuroplasticity is a bit irrelevant in this case unless you can figure out a way to rewire their brain back.

The brain is always in a state of rewiring. If you haven't noticed, these are the results, not the cause. The solution is relatively simple to come up with, start "training" our brains to think more rationally about our gender. The results depends on the person.

Good. Until you find a reproducible way to rewire people's brains back to their biological gender, this is quite irrelevant when it comes to which treatment method is generally used.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

Nice oversimplification. I never argued that all brain differences were set in stone. Your arguments are absolutely pathetic.

So in an other word, you concede that engaging in transexual behavior is a choice?
Either that, or you arguing the "some" brain differences (particularly, transexuality) are set in stone. If so, then kindly provide evidence.

Once again, misrepresenting arguments. Do you have to do this because you have none? I didn't come here to argue semantics.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

If you read the article (or comprehended it), you would have seen that white matter development is ongoing for the first few years of life (age 0-5). White matter development is what is being dealt with here. In fact, the article stated that about 40% of transsexuals noticed gender variance by age 5.

However, your argument about neuroplasticity is still quite irrelevant for the simple reason that it is a doctor's job to treat a condition, or to help the patient deal with the symptoms if treatment is impossible, as is currently the case with gender dysphoria. Until you find a way to cure gender dysphoria by reversing any changes in brain structure (and can do so in an ethical manner), you won't accomplish anything by b*tching about how you think it is unnatural, especially with clear physiological differences being present in those with gender dysphoria.

What do you know, plasticity includes white matter!
You are suggesting that psychiatrists should encourage people to surrender to irrational beliefs if it is easier for them to do so. I really doubt many psychiatrists agree with you. All patterns of thoughts and behaviors should be changeable. If we don't know how to treat them properly, then we should research and learn how to.

Actually, they do agree with me, since the current accepted treatment for gender dysphoria is modifying the patient's body to match the gender they identify as. Of course, there are people researching how to change gender identity to match a patient's biological gender. However, they haven't done so successfully, so guess what we're stuck with for now? If they manage to succeed with this effort, then that's great, minus the ethical concerns of what would equate to reprogramming someone's personality for them. Until they do so, the current method of treatment will remain in use.

Transexuals noticed gender variation from a younger age alright, however they most likely received a gender identity disorder.

And guess what the treatment for that is? Go on, guess.

I hardly care about any thing people do in their private time, as long it does not have a significant negative direct or indirect effect on public good.
So my only problem with transexuals is when they demand to force others to share their perception of reality through law.

So you have a problem with whether they have a "M" or "F" on their driver's license? My, how personally this must affect you...
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Dragonfang
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10/26/2013 4:42:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/26/2013 12:10:02 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:11:12 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 10/25/2013 1:45:17 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Neuroplasticity is a bit irrelevant in this case unless you can figure out a way to rewire their brain back.

The brain is always in a state of rewiring. If you haven't noticed, these are the results, not the cause. The solution is relatively simple to come up with, start "training" our brains to think more rationally about our gender. The results depends on the person.

Good. Until you find a reproducible way to rewire people's brains back to their biological gender, this is quite irrelevant when it comes to which treatment method is generally used.

I already stated the way. Encouraging them to think in a rational matter about their gender.
As I stated, the patterns are the results, not the cause. The cause is a (fallicious) thinking pattern.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

Nice oversimplification. I never argued that all brain differences were set in stone. Your arguments are absolutely pathetic.

So in an other word, you concede that engaging in transexual behavior is a choice?
Either that, or you arguing the "some" brain differences (particularly, transexuality) are set in stone. If so, then kindly provide evidence.

Once again, misrepresenting arguments. Do you have to do this because you have none? I didn't come here to argue semantics.

If you did not argue that "some" brains differences are set in stone, then my point is unscathed.
If you did not, and you believe what you proposed is in fact a challenge to my point, then please clarify it.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

If you read the article (or comprehended it), you would have seen that white matter development is ongoing for the first few years of life (age 0-5). White matter development is what is being dealt with here. In fact, the article stated that about 40% of transsexuals noticed gender variance by age 5.

However, your argument about neuroplasticity is still quite irrelevant for the simple reason that it is a doctor's job to treat a condition, or to help the patient deal with the symptoms if treatment is impossible, as is currently the case with gender dysphoria. Until you find a way to cure gender dysphoria by reversing any changes in brain structure (and can do so in an ethical manner), you won't accomplish anything by b*tching about how you think it is unnatural, especially with clear physiological differences being present in those with gender dysphoria.

What do you know, plasticity includes white matter!
You are suggesting that psychiatrists should encourage people to surrender to irrational beliefs if it is easier for them to do so. I really doubt many psychiatrists agree with you. All patterns of thoughts and behaviors should be changeable. If we don't know how to treat them properly, then we should research and learn how to.

Actually, they do agree with me, since the current accepted treatment for gender dysphoria is modifying the patient's body to match the gender they identify as. Of course, there are people researching how to change gender identity to match a patient's biological gender. However, they haven't done so successfully, so guess what we're stuck with for now? If they manage to succeed with this effort, then that's great, minus the ethical concerns of what would equate to reprogramming someone's personality for them. Until they do so, the current method of treatment will remain in use.

Most psychiatrists agree with collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it? I find this claim quite doubtful and most likely wrong, however, what matters is what should rather than what is. It is a collection of disorders, all disorders are potentially treatable, and often in plus 50% percentage. If people are unwilling to be treated, they will not be treated.

Transsexuals noticed gender variation from a younger age alright, however they most likely received a gender identity disorder.

And guess what the treatment for that is? Go on, guess.

Medication, psychotherapy, group therapy, other types of therapies. Usual stuff, which do not include surrendering.

I hardly care about any thing people do in their private time, as long it does not have a significant negative direct or indirect effect on public good.
So my only problem with transsexuals is when they demand to force others to share their perception of reality through law.

So you have a problem with whether they have a "M" or "F" on their driver's license? My, how personally this must affect you...

Forcing people to enable a delusion is harmful. There is no such thing as "right to pretend" sir, and it has the potential to crash any sort of gender privacy locations or activities.
Citizens are equal under the law. Therefore, transsexuals should not unjustifiably receive special treatment. You agree that it is a private and personal issue, then the government should not reward people for engaging in conscious private (and unfavorable) cultural behaviors.
drhead
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10/27/2013 1:05:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/26/2013 4:42:37 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 10/26/2013 12:10:02 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:11:12 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 10/25/2013 1:45:17 AM, drhead wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:31:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

@drhead
It is amusing to see how biological determinism and biologism is attempted to be revived solely for political reasons.
Ever heard of "Neuroplasticity"? Our brains are not fixed. "Neurons that Fire together Wire together". "Use it or you'll lose it".
http://faculty.washington.edu...

Neuroplasticity is a bit irrelevant in this case unless you can figure out a way to rewire their brain back.

The brain is always in a state of rewiring. If you haven't noticed, these are the results, not the cause. The solution is relatively simple to come up with, start "training" our brains to think more rationally about our gender. The results depends on the person.

Good. Until you find a reproducible way to rewire people's brains back to their biological gender, this is quite irrelevant when it comes to which treatment method is generally used.

I already stated the way. Encouraging them to think in a rational matter about their gender.
As I stated, the patterns are the results, not the cause. The cause is a (fallicious) thinking pattern.

Then surely you can show me a clinical trial where a pure psychotherapy approach worked, since you're so confident that you are right.

Might as well argue that London's taxi drivers were inclined to that occupation from birth because parts of their brains are bigger. Or that Internet addicts were inclined from birth because part of their brains are shrunk. Or that we should give pedophilia a break because their brains are similar.

Nice oversimplification. I never argued that all brain differences were set in stone. Your arguments are absolutely pathetic.

So in an other word, you concede that engaging in transexual behavior is a choice?
Either that, or you arguing the "some" brain differences (particularly, transexuality) are set in stone. If so, then kindly provide evidence.

Once again, misrepresenting arguments. Do you have to do this because you have none? I didn't come here to argue semantics.

If you did not argue that "some" brains differences are set in stone, then my point is unscathed.
If you did not, and you believe what you proposed is in fact a challenge to my point, then please clarify it.

Your original point is a strawman. THAT is my challenge to your point.

With what little we actually know about our brains, there isn't enough evidence to make a generalization that all brain functions are or are not able to be changed. In the case of sexual orientation, it is much better to assume we can't change it, because even if it is possible, we haven't done it successfully yet.

So what is needed to be shown is that some children are born with brain microstructures with similar pattern to transexuals. Which was not demonstrated as of yet.

If you read the article (or comprehended it), you would have seen that white matter development is ongoing for the first few years of life (age 0-5). White matter development is what is being dealt with here. In fact, the article stated that about 40% of transsexuals noticed gender variance by age 5.

However, your argument about neuroplasticity is still quite irrelevant for the simple reason that it is a doctor's job to treat a condition, or to help the patient deal with the symptoms if treatment is impossible, as is currently the case with gender dysphoria. Until you find a way to cure gender dysphoria by reversing any changes in brain structure (and can do so in an ethical manner), you won't accomplish anything by b*tching about how you think it is unnatural, especially with clear physiological differences being present in those with gender dysphoria.

What do you know, plasticity includes white matter!
You are suggesting that psychiatrists should encourage people to surrender to irrational beliefs if it is easier for them to do so. I really doubt many psychiatrists agree with you. All patterns of thoughts and behaviors should be changeable. If we don't know how to treat them properly, then we should research and learn how to.

Actually, they do agree with me, since the current accepted treatment for gender dysphoria is modifying the patient's body to match the gender they identify as. Of course, there are people researching how to change gender identity to match a patient's biological gender. However, they haven't done so successfully, so guess what we're stuck with for now? If they manage to succeed with this effort, then that's great, minus the ethical concerns of what would equate to reprogramming someone's personality for them. Until they do so, the current method of treatment will remain in use.

Most psychiatrists agree with collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it? I find this claim quite doubtful and most likely wrong, however, what matters is what should rather than what is. It is a collection of disorders, all disorders are potentially treatable, and often in plus 50% percentage. If people are unwilling to be treated, they will not be treated.

I can assure you that this is the currently used line of treatment.

Transsexuals noticed gender variation from a younger age alright, however they most likely received a gender identity disorder.

And guess what the treatment for that is? Go on, guess.

Medication, psychotherapy, group therapy, other types of therapies. Usual stuff, which do not include surrendering.

Oh, really? Show me a clinical trial in which that worked.

I hardly care about any thing people do in their private time, as long it does not have a significant negative direct or indirect effect on public good.
So my only problem with transsexuals is when they demand to force others to share their perception of reality through law.

So you have a problem with whether they have a "M" or "F" on their driver's license? My, how personally this must affect you...

Forcing people to enable a delusion is harmful. There is no such thing as "right to pretend" sir, and it has the potential to crash any sort of gender privacy locations or activities.
Citizens are equal under the law. Therefore, transsexuals should not unjustifiably receive special treatment. You agree that it is a private and personal issue, then the government should not reward people for engaging in conscious private (and unfavorable) cultural behaviors.

And how does the government 'reward' transsexuals? I don't remember there being a transsexual tax deduction.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian