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Transgenders Perpetuate Gender Stereotypes?

UnKarmafied
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11/7/2013 9:47:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do transgender people perpetuate Gender stereotypes?

Being transgender means that although physically or genetically you are male or female but you choose to be a woman or a man. However what does choosing to be a man or woman mean? Usually people who are trangender change the types of clothes they wear, their hairstyles or other things about these lifestyles. However by changing these things, are they saying that, for instance, men are not allowed to wear skirts or make up? Women cannot perform "manly tasks". By changing their lifestyle, aren't the defining different genders and creating or conforming to standards held strict for women and men for centuries. And aren't we right now trying to work towards a society that doesn't judge people by those standards? Are we trying to build a society where everyone feels free to do anything they want (as long as it harms no-one)? I'm just think about it. Tell me what you think or find my blog, Unkarmafied, and discuss it with me.
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themohawkninja
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11/7/2013 10:40:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think you are assuming too much.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
UnKarmafied
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11/7/2013 10:52:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree that it isn't a huge problem or issue, (if that's what you're saying) but doesn't it go against the fundamental nature of the LGBTQ and feminist agenda?
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themohawkninja
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11/7/2013 5:45:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:52:06 AM, UnKarmafied wrote:
I agree that it isn't a huge problem or issue, (if that's what you're saying) but doesn't it go against the fundamental nature of the LGBTQ and feminist agenda?

I am stating that you are assuming, because you are over-generalizing transgendered people as people that because they want to change their gender, want to assume traditional gender roles.

I also don't see how it goes against either of those groups.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
alexnotmurfs
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11/10/2013 9:54:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As a transgender man, I think I can help you to understand this issue a bit more clearly.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I have discussed this issue with other friends who are trans, so I know that there are others who agree with me.

As a trans-man, I am not transitioning because I want to assume the male gender. I am transitioning because my sex doesn't match my already existing male gender.

It has less to do with not wearing make-up or dresses than the overwhelming feeling that my body is just wrong for me.

I dress and present as male because I feel comfortable doing so (much more comfortable than dressing and presenting as a woman), but I accept that wearing pants and not make up is a social convention for men and if it were the other way around and men wore dresses, I would probably be more comfortable doing that.

Just to sum up, I am transitioning because I want to undergo the physical changes that I feel I should have gone through in puberty, because I feel my body developed the wrong set of characteristics. I also dress and present as male because I feel I am a man and have been all along.

Make sense?
UnKarmafied
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11/11/2013 10:15:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 9:54:12 AM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
As a transgender man, I think I can help you to understand this issue a bit more clearly.

First of all, let me say that I completely respect your decision but just want to clarify some things.

Just to sum up, I am transitioning because I want to undergo the physical changes that I feel I should have gone through in puberty, because I feel my body developed the wrong set of characteristics. I also dress and present as male because I feel I am a man and have been all along.

What is different about the male body from the female body that makes you feel as if you couldn't be comfortable in a standard female body? When you say characteristics, are you referring to physical characteristics, such as pubic and body/facial hair, increase in testosterone production, having male genitals? You say you are the male gender, but what does that mean? Do you behave differently from the self-distinguished female gender? If you do behave differently from the female gender and qualify those differences as what makes you "male gender", doesn't that mean that you agree claiming that there are specific social characteristics that make up the male gender? Isn't that in itself creating gender stereotypes or rules/guidelines that one must follow if they want to be "male gender"?

I dress and present as male because I feel comfortable doing so (much more comfortable than dressing and presenting as a woman), but I accept that wearing pants and not make up is a social convention for men and if it were the other way around and men wore dresses, I would probably be more comfortable doing that.

This is exactly what i'm referring to. You changed your appearance to conform to the "male gender". You are thereby implying that there are certain clothing that the male gender must wear. If we are struggling for equality and equity between the social genders, then why should there be stipulations as futile as apparel defining each gender? Why should I or you or anyone else feel uncomfortable wearing anything at all? I should be able to have a vagina or a penis and wear whatever I choose.

As a trans-man, I am not transitioning because I want to assume the male gender. I am transitioning because my sex doesn't match my already existing male gender.

I don't understand what you are saying in this sentence. Are you a female to male transgender? And what is it about your sex that doesn't match your male gender? Are you saying that there are differences between the male gender and the female gender? What are those differences that make you feel uncomfortable to be in the female sex and wear/act however you want?
---UnKARMAFIED---
alexnotmurfs
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11/11/2013 11:18:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"What is different about the male body from the female body that makes you feel as if you couldn't be comfortable in a standard female body? When you say characteristics, are you referring to physical characteristics, such as pubic and body/facial hair, increase in testosterone production, having male genitals? You say you are the male gender, but what does that mean?"

I cannot tolerate the physical female characteristics of my body, such as breast tissue, fat distribution hourglass figure), higher voice, internal and external reproductive anatomy, etc.

Just to clarify the difference between sex and gender: Sex is the physical state of being either male or female, and all of the physical attributes that come along with that. My sex is currently female, but I am changing my sex to be male.

Gender is what you perceive yourself to be and identify as. I visualize it as a mental light-switch that is either in the male or female position. I identify as male, so my gender is male. Some view it as a slider where one side is male and the other female, and you can identify to be on either side or somewhere between which is how gender queer people identify.

Imagine that you woke up tomorrow and your body had taken on all of the characteristics of the opposite sex. Your sex would now be opposite to what it was before, but your gender would remain the same.

"Do you behave differently from the self-distinguished female gender? If you do behave differently from the female gender and qualify those differences as what makes you "male gender", doesn't that mean that you agree claiming that there are specific social characteristics that make up the male gender? Isn't that in itself creating gender stereotypes or rules/guidelines that one must follow if they want to be "male gender"?"

I have both masculine and feminine behavioral traits as we all do. Some boys are perceived to be more feminine than others due to their behavior but that doesn't make them any less male, and vice versa for girls. The only rules for male or female behavior are social conventions which people can choose to adhere to or not.

So no, I am not claiming that there is a specific way that men or women should behave in order to be considered legitimately male or female.

Hope that all makes sense.
Cermank
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11/11/2013 2:13:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/11/2013 11:18:40 AM, alexnotmurfs wrote:

I love this topic.

Just to clarify, do you feel like you don't belong because of what you percieve yourself to be, or because of what the other people expect you to be? I ask because a good number of people don't like their physical characterstics, especially women. And it is, to an extent, socially acceptable for women to behave like men ( much more than men behaving like women).

I understand that you felt like your body didn't belong to you, but I don't understand which part of it becomes severe enough to make you consider sex change surgery. Can't you be a female ( and a lesbian) and behave like a man? The only reason I see it problematic is because of societal reaction, which would be 'tolerant' at max, and not really conductive for normal social relations. And a normal healthy life.

If people accept you as a boy completely, without reservations, would you still consider changing your sex?
alexnotmurfs
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11/11/2013 3:07:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm glad to discuss it. I feel that more trans-people should be open to answering these questions because doing so can only help to spread awareness and understanding.

My body is the reason that I am transitioning, much more so than the way I am perceived by society.

It is difficult to describe the feelings of gender dysphoria to someone who has never had to go through them. I'll try my best.

I feel a complete disconnect with my body, and just a passing glance at a mirror can send me into feelings of depression and self-loathing. Physical intimacy is torture to me and my monthly cycle is just another painful reminder that my body is wrong.

The first time I contemplated suicide I was 10 years old, and I have attempted suicide twice. It is a constant struggle.

I tried for almost 5 years to ignore my feelings and accept that I was going to live out the rest of my life as a woman. It was only last year that I finally gave up fighting and started my transitional journey.

I didn't do it because I wanted to. The injections, surgeries, and psychotherapy is not something I ever wanted to go through. And the rejection from close family members and friends is not something I would ever choose. I actually begged my therapist to tell me that I was mentally diseased and that I could take pills to make me feel normal in my body, but it unfortunately doesn't work like that.

The only cure for my condition is hormone replacement therapy and surgery, so that's just what I have to do.
Cermank
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11/11/2013 3:31:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/11/2013 3:07:59 PM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
I'm glad to discuss it. I feel that more trans-people should be open to answering these questions because doing so can only help to spread awareness and understanding.

My body is the reason that I am transitioning, much more so than the way I am perceived by society.

It is difficult to describe the feelings of gender dysphoria to someone who has never had to go through them. I'll try my best.

I feel a complete disconnect with my body, and just a passing glance at a mirror can send me into feelings of depression and self-loathing. Physical intimacy is torture to me and my monthly cycle is just another painful reminder that my body is wrong.

The first time I contemplated suicide I was 10 years old, and I have attempted suicide twice. It is a constant struggle.

I tried for almost 5 years to ignore my feelings and accept that I was going to live out the rest of my life as a woman. It was only last year that I finally gave up fighting and started my transitional journey.

I didn't do it because I wanted to. The injections, surgeries, and psychotherapy is not something I ever wanted to go through. And the rejection from close family members and friends is not something I would ever choose. I actually begged my therapist to tell me that I was mentally diseased and that I could take pills to make me feel normal in my body, but it unfortunately doesn't work like that.

The only cure for my condition is hormone replacement therapy and surgery, so that's just what I have to do.

Interesting. Thanks for engaging.I feel I understand it better now.

I wish you all the very best with your life . Stay strong!
alexnotmurfs
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11/11/2013 3:45:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thanks and all the best to you as well.

I just want to say that I apologize if I made the discussion all dark, or made anyone uncomfortable.

I just think it is important that people understand that sex change is not something transgender people do for kicks, to gain male or female privilege, or because of simple body insecurity issues. It is a treatment for a serious physical and emotional condition. That is all. :)
Wnope
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11/11/2013 5:24:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/11/2013 3:45:35 PM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
Thanks and all the best to you as well.

I just want to say that I apologize if I made the discussion all dark, or made anyone uncomfortable.

I just think it is important that people understand that sex change is not something transgender people do for kicks, to gain male or female privilege, or because of simple body insecurity issues. It is a treatment for a serious physical and emotional condition. That is all. :)

I hope you post more in the future. This site is in dire need of people with experiences and opinions like yours
bsh1
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11/11/2013 7:34:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/11/2013 5:24:20 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/11/2013 3:45:35 PM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
Thanks and all the best to you as well.

I just want to say that I apologize if I made the discussion all dark, or made anyone uncomfortable.

I just think it is important that people understand that sex change is not something transgender people do for kicks, to gain male or female privilege, or because of simple body insecurity issues. It is a treatment for a serious physical and emotional condition. That is all. :)

I hope you post more in the future. This site is in dire need of people with experiences and opinions like yours
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UnKarmafied
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11/12/2013 7:46:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/11/2013 11:18:40 AM, alexnotmurfs wrote:

I cannot tolerate the physical female characteristics of my body, such as breast tissue, fat distribution hourglass figure), higher voice, internal and external reproductive anatomy, etc.

What makes not liking your breasts or your body shape different than girls who say, don't like their body weight and get liposuction and pan-Asians who are uncomfortable with their eye shape or configuration and get double eyelid surgery or dark skinned people who are unhappy with their skin color and go through extensive skin bleaching and recovery to transfer to a lighter shade. These things are down voted by people who feel "everyone is beautiful" and are discouraged. What makes your "intolerance" different?

Just to clarify the difference between sex and gender: Sex is the physical state of being either male or female, and all of the physical attributes that come along with that. My sex is currently female, but I am changing my sex to be male.

I completely understand this, those are the definitions i have been using for all of my discussions. when i say male/female i refer to sex and when i say man/woman i refer to gender. I was hoping you'd realize that.

I completely understand what gender is and what sex is i just don't understand why people feel one gender can do things and another can't. In a utopia, people would behave how they chose and not by archaic stipulations that en must be "manly" strong etc and women have to be "effeminate". THose words should have definitions, because by having definitions, they are ultimately saying that poeple can't do the things they choose to. I feel you can do and say what you want whther or not you have a penis and your physical appearance shouldn't have any bearing on whether you wear nail polish or work in construction or wear mini skirts or do "manly" things (i hate that word.)

"Do you behave differently from the self-distinguished female gender? If you do behave differently from the female gender and qualify those differences as what makes you "male gender", doesn't that mean that you agree claiming that there are specific social characteristics that make up the male gender? Isn't that in itself creating gender stereotypes or rules/guidelines that one must follow if they want to be "male gender"?"

I have both masculine and feminine behavioral traits as we all do. Some boys are perceived to be more feminine than others due to their behavior but that doesn't make them any less male, and vice versa for girls. The only rules for male or female behavior are social conventions which people can choose to adhere to or not.

So no, I am not claiming that there is a specific way that men or women should behave in order to be considered legitimately male or female.

I don't think you understood what i was asking. I don't think that you as a person are claiming that males or females should behave a certain way. I am simply saying that you are, by nature, a female. However you stated "I dress and present as male because I feel comfortable doing so" and my question is why is it that you have defined the male gender in a specific form of dress or presentation. How come males can present one way and its okay.

My over arching idea is that saying that males can only present as a "man" is wrong. To that for one to feel comfortable doing "manly things" one must be male is incorrect. Every single person has the right to live there life the way they want. And I feel as a society we should embrace that and encourage it,n not make people feel as if they have to change their body just to feel comfortable "dress and presenting". We can't say men and women are equal then turn around and say "but wait, we still have rules if you want to be a man. SO if you want to dress like this and present yourself this way, you have GOT to have a penis/vagina, other wise you're weird".. No. We should not say this, people should do what they want regardless of their physical appearance.

Hope that all makes sense.
---UnKARMAFIED---
alexnotmurfs
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11/13/2013 7:33:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What makes not liking your breasts or your body shape different than girls who say, don't like their body weight and get liposuction and pan-Asians who are uncomfortable with their eye shape or configuration and get double eyelid surgery or dark skinned people who are unhappy with their skin color and go through extensive skin bleaching and recovery to transfer to a lighter shade. These things are down voted by people who feel "everyone is beautiful" and are discouraged. What makes your "intolerance" different?

I believe the difference lies in where the feelings are coming from. A woman who has liposuction because she doesn't like her weight, or a pan-asian who is uncomfortable with the shape of their eyes, are changing their appearance because they perceive the changes will make them more beautiful. I may be making a false assumption here, but it is my understanding that people make changes like those because they are self-conscious about how they look to others and want to appear "better" somehow.

My feelings about my body are not that I dislike the way I look and want to be more attractive. It's not even that I feel the need to change my sex so others view me as male.

My desire to change my sex stems from my need to stop experiencing gender dysphoria and feel that my body is connected to me... It is a difficult concept to describe.

I completely understand this, those are the definitions I have been using for all of my discussions. when I say male/female I refer to sex and when I say man/woman I refer to gender. I was hoping you'd realize that.

I completely understand what gender is and what sex is I just don't understand why people feel one gender can do things and another can't. In a utopia, people would behave how they chose and not by archaic stipulations that en must be "manly" strong etc and women have to be "effeminate". THose words should have definitions, because by having definitions, they are ultimately saying that poeple can't do the things they choose to. I feel you can do and say what you want whther or not you have a penis and your physical appearance shouldn't have any bearing on whether you wear nail polish or work in construction or wear mini skirts or do "manly" things (i hate that word.)


I absolutely agree. I'm not seeing where we are at odds here.

I don't think you understood what i was asking. I don't think that you as a person are claiming that males or females should behave a certain way. I am simply saying that you are, by nature, a female. However you stated "I dress and present as male because I feel comfortable doing so" and my question is why is it that you have defined the male gender in a specific form of dress or presentation. How come males can present one way and its okay.

My over arching idea is that saying that males can only present as a "man" is wrong. To that for one to feel comfortable doing "manly things" one must be male is incorrect. Every single person has the right to live there life the way they want. And I feel as a society we should embrace that and encourage it,n not make people feel as if they have to change their body just to feel comfortable "dress and presenting". We can't say men and women are equal then turn around and say "but wait, we still have rules if you want to be a man. SO if you want to dress like this and present yourself this way, you have GOT to have a penis/vagina, other wise you're weird".. No. We should not say this, people should do what they want regardless of their physical appearance.


Again, I totally agree. People should be able to act and dress however they want regardless of their sex and gender.

If I wanted to wear dresses and nail polish that wouldn't make me any less of a man.

I feel that is a separate issue from having a sex change.
UnKarmafied
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11/13/2013 8:18:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe the difference lies in where the feelings are coming from. A woman who has liposuction because she doesn't like her weight, or a pan-asian who is uncomfortable with the shape of their eyes, are changing their appearance because they perceive the changes will make them more beautiful. I may be making a false assumption here, but it is my understanding that people make changes like those because they are self-conscious about how they look to others and want to appear "better" somehow.

My desire to change my sex stems from my need to stop experiencing gender dysphoria and feel that my body is connected to me... It is a difficult concept to describe.

Who are you to say that the feeling those people feel are dissimilar from yours. They feel that they are in a body that is unlike them and and is not the way it is supposed to be, just as you feel about yours.

Again, I totally agree. People should be able to act and dress however they want regardless of their sex and gender.

If I wanted to wear dresses and nail polish that wouldn't make me any less of a man.

I feel that is a separate issue from having a sex change.

Forgive me if i sound flustered.

My point is that what does it matter what your body looks like or does on the outside! you say you want to feel connected and match your body to your personality and my point is that someone's personality should not have a body type! One shouldn't be able to say, "i act this way therefore i should have this body type" Your body type shouldn't have anything thing with your personality or behavioral characteristics because by saying that they do, and returning to the original forum post question, this is perpetuating gender stereotypes. By saying "since i act this way with "manly" attributes, i must change my body appearance because the male figure is the only figure that matches my personality."

The human body does not have a personality type. Its impossible to say it does. What about people who are born with both genital parts? They clearly don't have a "personality" that fits them. Clearly personality and behavioral characteristics aren't supposed to correlate with body type. When i started this discussion, it actually had nothing to do with sex changes, that was not my main idea. My issue with transsexualism is that it is saying that if you are born a female you can have certain personality traits and characteristics and then call yourself a man. my issue with this is that it is clearly saying that being a MALE comes with a responsibility to act a certain way. And it doesn't. And it shouldn't.
---UnKARMAFIED---
alexnotmurfs
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11/13/2013 8:43:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There seems to be a communication gap here, as I agree with your ideals.

I would like to point out that there is a difference between one's personality and their gender. As well, intersex people definitely do have a gender and often must undergo sex changes due to their parents having the wrong set of reproductive organs removed at birth.

If you wake up tomorrow and your sex had changed so that your body now bears all oof the physical characteristics of the opposite sex, will you just be able to go on as normal? Would it bother you at all to spend the rest of your life with a body that is the opposite sex to your inate gender?
YYW
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11/13/2013 10:34:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 9:47:54 AM, UnKarmafied wrote:
Do transgender people perpetuate Gender stereotypes?

Being transgender means that although physically or genetically you are male or female but you choose to be a woman or a man.

Being transgender means biological betrayal, such that those born with the parts of one sex are of the other. Choice, then, has no bearing in the matter.

However what does choosing to be a man or woman mean?

Once more, choice has no bearing in the matter.

Usually people who are trangender change the types of clothes they wear, their hairstyles or other things about these lifestyles.

Let's not conflate cross-dressing with transgenderism.

However by changing these things, are they saying that, for instance, men are not allowed to wear skirts or make up?

No. Men are allowed to wear skirts, etc., even though to do defies gender norms.

Women cannot perform "manly tasks".

No. However, it is interesting how feminism has historically measured (and, implicitly valued) female worth. First wave feminism sought for men and women to have the same legal status and rights, and in doing so implied a metric of defining women's place against society by comparison to men. Second wave feminism built upon that, but sought to prove that men and women were equal both not only legally, but socioculturally such that women did "manly" things, aspired to prove that "anything a man could do, a woman could as well" and thus defined womens' worth against masculinity. Third wave feminism sought to establish femininity as something distinct from masculinity but nevertheless either on par with or superior to masculinity as a means by which social equality may be arrived at, on the social constructive level rather than a literal-functional level. But, in any case, women can perform manly tasks... and 21st century post-war women have consistently enjoyed a far higher degree of latitude in gender role flexibility than men.

By changing their lifestyle, aren't [they] defining different genders and creating or conforming to standards held strict for women and men for centuries.

Gender roles were already defined, and so by our sociocultural inheritance. To the extent that those roles become malleable, it is rather the case that those norms are made to be fluid.

And aren't we right now trying to work towards a society that doesn't judge people by those standards?

Depends on who the "we" is. Third wave feminism, or, at least the aspect which champions femininity as something over and above masculinity -for any number of reasons- has, I think, resulted in a sort of passive misogyny in heterosexual millennial men and boys. Practically that means that teenage boys, twenty-somethings and male young adult millennials will -at least amongst themselves- think of women with a "make me a sandwich" kind of mentality. The consequent is this: rather than defining femininity against masculinity, masculinity is being defined against femininity in that masculine norms are reactionary to femininity. In society, what that translates to is the end of men... where more women attain higher levels of education, dominate white-collar jobs and males are no more than a juvenile band of bitches and man-children.

Are we trying to build a society where everyone feels free to do anything they want (as long as it harms no-one)?

No.

I'm just think about it. Tell me what you think or find my blog, Unkarmafied, and discuss it with me.

Well, what I've written above should suffice.
Tsar of DDO
UnKarmafied
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11/14/2013 8:03:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/13/2013 11:13:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Of course.

Just like how women who like to cook perpetuate sexism.

I detect sarcasm. That isn't a parallel to what I'm saying at all. Did you even read what I've written in this forum, or did you just decide to try and fail at being a wise-***?
---UnKARMAFIED---
UnKarmafied
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11/14/2013 8:20:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/13/2013 8:43:55 PM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
There seems to be a communication gap here, as I agree with your ideals.

I would like to point out that there is a difference between one's personality and their gender. As well, intersex people definitely do have a gender and often must undergo sex changes due to their parents having the wrong set of reproductive organs removed at birth.

I think you're missing everything. Wrong set? WRONG SET? This is exactly what i'm trying to address, why is there a wrong set for someone? How can there even be a "wrong" set for someone. Your physical attributes, other than your hormonal attributes, shouldn't and don't have anything to do with your gender or personality.

If you wake up tomorrow and your sex had changed so that your body now bears all oof the physical characteristics of the opposite sex, will you just be able to go on as normal? Would it bother you at all to spend the rest of your life with a body that is the opposite sex to your inate gender?

The obvious answer to this question is yea, i would be pretty uncomfortable. But this isn't about how I would feel, and more about why i feel that way. I don't think i would feel that way if it weren't for societal pressures and societal expectation to act and be a certain way. What i'm trying to say is that we should rise against these societal pressures that tell us "if you have this genital, you must be like this" and strive to be our own person despite our physical attributes. I feel everyone is born with an innate personality and goes through life while society pushes and pull at it to morph it into what ever they are today. I realize its really difficult in a society like ours to NOT claim a gender, but I feel as if we need to branch away from what gender means, and separate man/woman from male/female.

Tangent:

I even think man/woman is too restrictive in itself. whats the point of having men and women? I realize we are really far away from this ever being a possibility, but i'm speaking theoretically here. What purpose does being a man or a woman serve? It automatically forces stereotypes and judging from people when you are in either one. And its not something that many people choose to be. What if there weren't those classification and the only classifications there were are those we choose, such as religion, and cultural/ethnicity practices? Just think about it...
---UnKARMAFIED---
UnKarmafied
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11/14/2013 8:30:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/13/2013 10:34:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/7/2013 9:47:54 AM, UnKarmafied wrote:
Do transgender people perpetuate Gender stereotypes?

Being transgender means that although physically or genetically you are male or female but you choose to be a woman or a man.

YYW, I would love to respond to your post, but you replied to the first post i made, and if you read the rest, or this forum, you would see that my argument has evolved greatly and more in depth than what you've read. Also i have already addressed the questions you bring up. so, yeah. but i like your points!
---UnKARMAFIED---
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/14/2013 11:53:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 8:03:30 AM, UnKarmafied wrote:
At 11/13/2013 11:13:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Of course.

Just like how women who like to cook perpetuate sexism.

I detect sarcasm. That isn't a parallel to what I'm saying at all. Did you even read what I've written in this forum, or did you just decide to try and fail at being a wise-***?

The second one.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
alexnotmurfs
Posts: 10
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11/15/2013 6:56:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay, I think I see where our ideas clash now. I'm not sure why it is, but your position on this argument was confusing to me, almost as if we have been discussing two different things.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, in my understanding, you are asserting that transgender people transition physically and socially in order to fit into society's view of their innate gender. You are saying that, in your view, the only reason transgender people are uncomfortable with their birth sex is that society has ingrained in them that men and women must act and look a certain way, and have certain genitals in order to be legitimately men or women.

Is my understanding of your argument correct, or am I still off?

I would like to discuss this further, but it seems silly to keep making off-topic responses to your comments.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/16/2013 10:29:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/15/2013 6:56:18 AM, alexnotmurfs wrote:
Okay, I think I see where our ideas clash now. I'm not sure why it is, but your position on this argument was confusing to me, almost as if we have been discussing two different things.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, in my understanding, you are asserting that transgender people transition physically and socially in order to fit into society's view of their innate gender. You are saying that, in your view, the only reason transgender people are uncomfortable with their birth sex is that society has ingrained in them that men and women must act and look a certain way, and have certain genitals in order to be legitimately men or women.

Is my understanding of your argument correct, or am I still off?

I would like to discuss this further, but it seems silly to keep making off-topic responses to your comments.

Even if that's not what he meant, I'd still love to hear your thoughts on that.
yang.