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Question about Snowden

donald.keller
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12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)
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donald.keller
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12/20/2013 2:06:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I want to add that I just wanted to throw a silly question out in straight boredom. Do not take the question too seriously.
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themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...
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themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2013 3:25:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.

Or maybe he was paid by the Russians, the Chinese, and god knows who else in an international consortium to get four hard drives laden with god knows what out of the NSA, and maybe he used the US domestic spying atrocities to provide just enough cover so that the US wouldn't assassinate him outright for being a double-agent.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
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12/20/2013 3:33:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

He had no where else to go. Even though he requested asylum from a number of countries, all except for Russia found legal reasons to dissuade his seeking asylum at the border. He was in that situation because when the State Department revoked his passport, he was stuck in an international zone of the Sheremetyevo Airport terminal. After a lengthy stay there, Snowden was granted temporary asylum in Russia on the condition that he discontinue, as Putin put it, Russia's "ally," America. So, it was not as if Snowden chose Russia of his own volition. It was his only option.
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YYW
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12/20/2013 3:36:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Conspiracy theories about Snowden being paid by the Chinese or the Russians are baseless. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he received any compensation from foreign states. Rather, there is an abundance of evidence to suggest that even when Snowden offered foreign governments information on US intel gathering, they decided that their relationship with the United States was more important than anything Snowden had to offer. So, people can pontificate their warranties international conspiracy theories to whatever extent they like. They have no merit. They have no basis. They have no grounding in reality.
Tsar of DDO
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/20/2013 3:37:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:25:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.

Or maybe he was paid by the Russians, the Chinese, and god knows who else in an international consortium to get four hard drives laden with god knows what out of the NSA, and maybe he used the US domestic spying atrocities to provide just enough cover so that the US wouldn't assassinate him outright for being a double-agent.

I don't think I would call it an atrocity, but I do see the logic behind paying (or bribing) Snowden to come to their country for the information.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2013 3:38:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:37:09 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:25:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.

Or maybe he was paid by the Russians, the Chinese, and god knows who else in an international consortium to get four hard drives laden with god knows what out of the NSA, and maybe he used the US domestic spying atrocities to provide just enough cover so that the US wouldn't assassinate him outright for being a double-agent.

I don't think I would call it an atrocity, but I do see the logic behind paying (or bribing) Snowden to come to their country for the information.

It's easy to surmise that people died from the programs Snowden exposed. "Atrocity" is IMHO appropriate.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/20/2013 3:39:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:36:43 PM, YYW wrote:
Conspiracy theories about Snowden being paid by the Chinese or the Russians are baseless. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he received any compensation from foreign states. Rather, there is an abundance of evidence to suggest that even when Snowden offered foreign governments information on US intel gathering, they decided that their relationship with the United States was more important than anything Snowden had to offer. So, people can pontificate their warranties conspiracy theories to whatever extent they like. They have no merit. They have no basis. They have no grounding in reality.

Well, that is kind of the foreign powers to do, although I am a bit surprised that Russia, Iran, or the DPRK (Assuming that Snowden offered the info to them) wouldn't jump at the chance to gather some U.S. intel.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
themohawkninja
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12/20/2013 3:39:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:38:18 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:37:09 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:25:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.

Or maybe he was paid by the Russians, the Chinese, and god knows who else in an international consortium to get four hard drives laden with god knows what out of the NSA, and maybe he used the US domestic spying atrocities to provide just enough cover so that the US wouldn't assassinate him outright for being a double-agent.

I don't think I would call it an atrocity, but I do see the logic behind paying (or bribing) Snowden to come to their country for the information.

It's easy to surmise that people died from the programs Snowden exposed. "Atrocity" is IMHO appropriate.

I don't see how you can derive that conclusion whatsoever.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2013 3:40:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And anyone thinking that spying is something that is done in public view and commented upon by public officials is absolutely and utterly clueless as to how the game is played.

Any and all spying is assumed to be denied by any governments perpetrating it, so the lack of government recognition is wholly appropriate even if it was the truth.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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12/20/2013 3:41:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:39:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:36:43 PM, YYW wrote:
Conspiracy theories about Snowden being paid by the Chinese or the Russians are baseless. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he received any compensation from foreign states. Rather, there is an abundance of evidence to suggest that even when Snowden offered foreign governments information on US intel gathering, they decided that their relationship with the United States was more important than anything Snowden had to offer. So, people can pontificate their warranties conspiracy theories to whatever extent they like. They have no merit. They have no basis. They have no grounding in reality.

Well, that is kind of the foreign powers to do, although I am a bit surprised that Russia, Iran, or the DPRK (Assuming that Snowden offered the info to them) wouldn't jump at the chance to gather some U.S. intel.

Iran might, but only because they're not a US ally. Snowden wouldn't offer it to Iran, though, because that would mean that he could face the death penalty for treason. Let it also not be lost upon us here that there is no evidence that Snowden actively sought out enemies of the United States to give his information to. I'm not, of course, defending him -but it is important that we keep the facts straight here.
Tsar of DDO
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2013 3:41:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:39:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:38:18 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:37:09 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:25:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:05:14 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:50:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:42:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 2:01:30 PM, donald.keller wrote:
If Snowden had hated the whole spying on people thing, then why did he run to Russia for safe haven... Who quite literally has a monopoly on spying on people? (and don't say it's to free them too...)

To put my hypothesis in the form of a cliche...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I'd agree if he didn't have every other nation offering him safe haven...

Maybe he chose Russia just to be a dick to the U.S.?

Since he's already wanted for treason (or so I assume), might as well at insult to injury and hide inside the borders of America's rival.

Or maybe he was paid by the Russians, the Chinese, and god knows who else in an international consortium to get four hard drives laden with god knows what out of the NSA, and maybe he used the US domestic spying atrocities to provide just enough cover so that the US wouldn't assassinate him outright for being a double-agent.

I don't think I would call it an atrocity, but I do see the logic behind paying (or bribing) Snowden to come to their country for the information.

It's easy to surmise that people died from the programs Snowden exposed. "Atrocity" is IMHO appropriate.

I don't see how you can derive that conclusion whatsoever.

Why do those programs exist? To expose terrorists. What does the US do with terrorists? They generally do not arrest them...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2013 3:45:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 3:39:05 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/20/2013 3:36:43 PM, YYW wrote:
Conspiracy theories about Snowden being paid by the Chinese or the Russians are baseless. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he received any compensation from foreign states. Rather, there is an abundance of evidence to suggest that even when Snowden offered foreign governments information on US intel gathering, they decided that their relationship with the United States was more important than anything Snowden had to offer. So, people can pontificate their warranties conspiracy theories to whatever extent they like. They have no merit. They have no basis. They have no grounding in reality.

Well, that is kind of the foreign powers to do, although I am a bit surprised that Russia, Iran, or the DPRK (Assuming that Snowden offered the info to them) wouldn't jump at the chance to gather some U.S. intel.

The answer is easy. Of course they all would, and of course none of them would dare say so. They do all of this COVERTLY. That's why it's called SPYING.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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12/20/2013 3:51:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here's a thought experiment that might help everyone here understand why international conspiracy theories about Snowden being used as a spy against the United States are stupid and baseless:

Imagine that you're working for Chinese, Russian or German intelligence -for example- and a thirty something contacts you anonymously and says that he has information on US intelligence gathering which would reveal the scope and reach of the United State's monitoring countries around the world. The guy says that the information he has is unprecedented, and that the reach is far deeper than any previous indications by the US government have ever indicated.

Assuming that you have an active brain, you would realize in that moment that if this guy is telling the truth and the United States does have an unprecedented reach into internationally exchanged data as such, then you must also recognize both the imminent likelihood that your cooperation with someone who is actively seeking to expose US intelligence secrets would be discovered by the United States and the reality that even if the guy is lying and the US's reach isn't that deep that this could present a host of diplomatic trouble for your country in the future.

Knowing what the United States has done to countries that it doesn't like in the not so distant past (drones in Yemen, sanctions in Iran, secret military missions in sovereign nations that make international headlines and disgrace local governments -i.e. killing bin Laden in Pakistan), it would be inconceivable that any rational ally of the United States would cooperate with a traitor and risk exposing themselves to the unbridled wrath of Washington D.C. But, I guess not all people possess the ability to rationally understand the reality of delicate situations.
Tsar of DDO
wrichcirw
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12/20/2013 3:58:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Anyone assuming that the US has an unchallengeable position in intelligence is suffering from massive hubris and simply does not know how the game works.

Of course regardless of how prodigious the US capability is, there are always weaknesses that can be exploited. Of course the point is to "get away with it". Of course the point is to keep everyone unaware of such proceedings.

Any nuclear power (i.e. Russia, China) would not be nearly as afraid of the US as Yemen or Iran.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
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12/20/2013 3:59:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, let's explore the potentiality of a global public figure's likelihood of being used as a spy...

The basic facts are these: Ed Snowden is a global public figure whose face is known by hundreds of millions around the world. The reason Snowden is a public figure is because he, of his own volition, exposed who he was. Given that Snowden is a public figure to the vast extent that he is, it would be utterly inconceivable that anything he did relating to exposing US intelligence gathering secrets could be, likewise, covert. But again, rationally grasping reality is not something that all people have.

Snowden is not a spy. There is no international conspiracy beyond what the public already knows, and it would be irrational to even consider that there could be, because of both the costs that such a conspiracy would present to America's allies. People are free to believe what they want, but any belief which suggests that an American ally would willfully act to jeopardize their relationship with Washington to learn something that they should have assumed was the case to begin with is stupid, baseless and utterly warrantless.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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12/20/2013 4:01:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
But this goes back to that most basic problem that exists on the internet... the risk of blowing hot air is that you very well may run into someone who actually knows what you only pretend to know.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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12/20/2013 4:09:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 4:08:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Shut up, YYW. You're a retard dude.

So tell me, badger, why is it that you've gone from friendly asshat to douchy prick? What propagated that change? I'm very curious.
Tsar of DDO
AnDoctuir
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12/20/2013 4:13:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What's an asshat? Basically though, you're a joke, and at times it's bearable - you can be mildly intelligent - but then you went into overdrive for little bitchass reasons.

I was just saying hi.
wrichcirw
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12/20/2013 4:13:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Snowden is a global figure who more than likely used NSA domestic spying atrocities as a cover for his double-agent activities. That's the most plausible reason why he fled to China, then Russia, upon going public with his allegations, all the while carrying terabytes of top-secret NSA data (all NSA data is top secret) along with him.

Snowden was a massive security risk to the US the moment he left a secure facility with massive amounts of classified. That he actually then fled to foreign countries with this classified automatically equates him to a treasonous traitor, regardless of whether or not there is any evidence of information exchange. Anyone that's ever held a security clearance can tell you that.

Anyone assuming that Snowden is not engaged in double-agent spying at this point is hopelessly naive. You assume the worst, and given that what he's done already is treasonous (this is not assumption, this is fact), one can only assume that Snowden is using his whistleblower "fame" as a shield to prevent his assassination and/or extradition. Putin himself played this card against the US when the US demanded his extradition out of Russia when this news first broke out.

The US will first have to assassinate his character before assassinating the man. Regardless, the damage has already been done. It's easy to surmise that all the information he was carrying was already uploaded to anyone that wanted it the moment he began his international romp in Hong Kong during the summer. The only question now is how much more damage will he do? Who else will approach him as a buyer for his information? Whoever it would be will be relative peanuts compared to Russia and China, the first two stops in Snowden's outright betrayal of the US.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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12/20/2013 4:14:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 4:13:05 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
What's an asshat? Basically though, you're a joke, and at times it's bearable - you can be mildly intelligent - but then you went into overdrive for little bitchass reasons.

I was just saying hi.

I'm wondering if there wasn't something going on in your life that you wanted to talk about. Usually when you get like this it's because there's personal sh!t going on.
Tsar of DDO
AnDoctuir
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12/20/2013 4:18:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
wrich isn't even as bad, to be honest. He may be less-encompassing in his dysfunction, but he's not as insidiously immoral. Eh, maybe his power plays are just less far-reaching and thus less annoying, I guess. The bumboy will jump on any wagon so long as it's powerful.
AnDoctuir
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12/20/2013 4:19:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/20/2013 4:14:32 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/20/2013 4:13:05 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
What's an asshat? Basically though, you're a joke, and at times it's bearable - you can be mildly intelligent - but then you went into overdrive for little bitchass reasons.

I was just saying hi.

I'm wondering if there wasn't something going on in your life that you wanted to talk about. Usually when you get like this it's because there's personal sh!t going on.

Oh, are you? Nope, how about you?
AnDoctuir
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12/20/2013 4:19:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
>YYW reads a recent post of mine and will discredit what I say with it. Yeah, good job bro.
YYW
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12/20/2013 4:20:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So tell me, what's going on, Badger? Are you still upset about that thing that happened a few weeks ago?
Tsar of DDO