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Texas Student Suspended for Being Raped

wrichcirw
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12/26/2013 1:56:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A student reports being raped, is discouraged from reporting it by all relevant tiers of school administration, and then is subsequently suspended along with the rapist for "public lewdness". The police said it was "consensual sex", even though the student was clear she was reporting rape, and even though the health clinic that treated the victim says the evidence corroborates the victim's story.

http://www.salon.com...

Apparently there is a silver lining to this story, in that originally this student was even barred from being transferred to a different school due to the suspension. She since won that appeal and is studying criminal justice in college for obvious reasons.

Regardless, the rapist in this particular case apparently was let off the hook, and this female student had to go through a personal hell to get what little justice she got from the whole affair.

Discuss.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?
My work here is, finally, done.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/26/2013 3:53:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
News of the incident reached an assistant vice principal the next day, who sent Bradshaw-Bean to a health clinic where she was found to have lacerations and bleeding "consistent with information given per victim," according to a medical report obtained by NBC. Bradshaw-Bean was interviewed at the clinic, but says she felt numb during the exchange. "I just felt like I couldn"t cry anymore," she said. "I was just taking in so much."

Following the interview, police told Bradshaw-Bean"s parents that they would not be filing charges.

This piece of information is important. So, there was physical evidence of forced entry and trauma, yet something in her interview gave the police enough reason to not press charges. She felt numb during the exchange? So because she didn't cry she wasn't traumatised? I don't understand this. If the physical evidence were consistent with her account of the rape, then couldn't they have deduced that lack of an emotional response is an emotional response in its own right?

Something is missing here. I could understand if perhaps there was no physical injury present, but this girl had actual evidence of rape?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 4:04:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Why?
In no other legal setting do we just assume to punish one party over another.
We don't say, "Hey, that guy stole my wallet. Let's punish him.".

There is likely no evidence that shows the sex wasn't consensual, which is the problem.
By saying accusations alone ought to be enough, it does give women (generally) the power to sabotage others, for revenge or jealousy or the intended purpose of rape.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 4:05:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 3:53:48 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
News of the incident reached an assistant vice principal the next day, who sent Bradshaw-Bean to a health clinic where she was found to have lacerations and bleeding "consistent with information given per victim," according to a medical report obtained by NBC. Bradshaw-Bean was interviewed at the clinic, but says she felt numb during the exchange. "I just felt like I couldn"t cry anymore," she said. "I was just taking in so much."

Following the interview, police told Bradshaw-Bean"s parents that they would not be filing charges.

This piece of information is important. So, there was physical evidence of forced entry and trauma, yet something in her interview gave the police enough reason to not press charges. She felt numb during the exchange? So because she didn't cry she wasn't traumatised? I don't understand this. If the physical evidence were consistent with her account of the rape, then couldn't they have deduced that lack of an emotional response is an emotional response in its own right?

Something is missing here. I could understand if perhaps there was no physical injury present, but this girl had actual evidence of rape?

What is the difference between trauma of rape and sex?
How does the rape kit prove one over the other?
Isn't there tearing either way?
My work here is, finally, done.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/26/2013 4:26:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:05:56 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
What is the difference between trauma of rape and sex?

I don't know what kind of sex you're having, but unless she was a virgin prior to the experience then blood and tearing are usually indicative of forced entry.

How does the rape kit prove one over the other?

What would the girl stand to gain by decrying rape? So let's assume that this was not a rape and she wanted to have sex with this guy. She bled and was torn, so either she was a virgin or she wanted to be mutilated, because she has a mutilation fetish and she likes rough sex. And she wanted this to happen in a music room. Then, she thought it would be a good idea to say that he raped her. Because YOLO. Makes sense.

Isn't there tearing either way?

No? The hymen, yes. That is torn with penetration. But no, tearing is not normal.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 4:38:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:26:20 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
I don't know much about things of this nature, so if you could please be as LITTLE graphic as possible, could you explain why a non-virgin is hurt due to forced entry more than impromptu sex?

I don't understand why there wouldn't be tearing or trauma in both cases, and, since both cases are possible, there is nothing to prove one or the other.

As far as why she would claim rape, who knows?
I had an ex-girlfriend whom I had sex with who pretty much accused me of rape, because the sex was awful, and she cheated on her boyfriend for it (i.e. buyers remorse). She didn't call the cops, but she sure as hell blamed me for it.
My work here is, finally, done.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/26/2013 4:47:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:38:07 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 4:26:20 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
I don't know much about things of this nature, so if you could please be as LITTLE graphic as possible, could you explain why a non-virgin is hurt due to forced entry more than impromptu sex?

Impromptu sex is desired; forced entry is forced entry. If desire is there mentally then the body will compensate (vaginal excretions aka nature's lube) tends to accumulate in the brief lead up to impromptu sex whereas rape and forced entry are not desired, so the body does not compensate. Physical trauma (gynaecological) is common with rape cases, although it doesn't always happen.

I don't understand why there wouldn't be tearing or trauma in both cases, and, since both cases are possible, there is nothing to prove one or the other.

Trauma and physical tearing/bleeding are not common for consensual sex acts and it's a sign of something going wrong.

As far as why she would claim rape, who knows?

So rather than assume she is innocent, you assume she lied about being rape despite there being physical evidence for it because 'who knows'? Your opinions on rape are tainting your ability to perceive this case as a standalone case.

I had an ex-girlfriend whom I had sex with who pretty much accused me of rape, because the sex was awful, and she cheated on her boyfriend for it (i.e. buyers remorse). She didn't call the cops, but she sure as hell blamed me for it.

Yes, this can and does happen, but why do you assume that the girl in this story is lying about it or that it wasn't rape?
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/26/2013 4:49:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In your first post in this thread, you ignored/denied that there was physical evidence of trauma:

At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Then in the latter half of your post, your opinions on rape cases shine through your reasoning:

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Thus you are not taking this on a case-by-case basis. Remove your bias and view this objectively. Is it likely that this girl lied about being raped despite the physical evidence remaining consistent with her account of the rape as per the medical report?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 4:55:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:47:19 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 4:38:07 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 4:26:20 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
I don't know much about things of this nature, so if you could please be as LITTLE graphic as possible, could you explain why a non-virgin is hurt due to forced entry more than impromptu sex?

Impromptu sex is desired; forced entry is forced entry. If desire is there mentally then the body will compensate (vaginal excretions aka nature's lube) tends to accumulate in the brief lead up to impromptu sex whereas rape and forced entry are not desired, so the body does not compensate. Physical trauma (gynaecological) is common with rape cases, although it doesn't always happen.

I don't understand why there wouldn't be tearing or trauma in both cases, and, since both cases are possible, there is nothing to prove one or the other.

Trauma and physical tearing/bleeding are not common for consensual sex acts and it's a sign of something going wrong.

As far as why she would claim rape, who knows?

So rather than assume she is innocent, you assume she lied about being rape despite there being physical evidence for it because 'who knows'? Your opinions on rape are tainting your ability to perceive this case as a standalone case.

I had an ex-girlfriend whom I had sex with who pretty much accused me of rape, because the sex was awful, and she cheated on her boyfriend for it (i.e. buyers remorse). She didn't call the cops, but she sure as hell blamed me for it.

Yes, this can and does happen, but why do you assume that the girl in this story is lying about it or that it wasn't rape?
If I had an opinion on this woman, I would say she was indeed raped.
My opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

It seems that rape is consistent with trauma, but trauma can occur in the event of consensual sex, and trauma can be absent even in the course of rape.

My issue is that the rape kit does not prove that a rape occurred. It makes it likely, and the trauma add to the likelihood, but it is not proof.

So, without proof, what is the school to do?
What should the cops do?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2013 4:59:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:49:52 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
In your first post in this thread, you ignored/denied that there was physical evidence of trauma:

At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Trauma =/= proof, but it sure as hell helps.


Then in the latter half of your post, your opinions on rape cases shine through your reasoning:

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Thus you are not taking this on a case-by-case basis. Remove your bias and view this objectively. Is it likely that this girl lied about being raped despite the physical evidence remaining consistent with her account of the rape as per the medical report?

It is more likely she is telling the truth, but that isn't my concern in reference to school policy. The fact is, it is largely a he said she said scenario, akin to cheating on a test (copying someone). Unless someone admits fault, or there is proof, both are punished.

As I said, an investigation should have been done. However, I doubt any provable evidence would be discovered.
My work here is, finally, done.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/26/2013 5:05:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:55:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If I had an opinion on this woman, I would say she was indeed raped.
My opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

It seems that rape is consistent with trauma, but trauma can occur in the event of consensual sex, and trauma can be absent even in the course of rape.

Let's break this down.

1) Rape tends to result in some physical and emotional trauma.
2) The girl claimed to have been raped and displayed signs of physical and mental trauma.
3) Trauma in the event of consensual sex is rare.

Given 1, 2 and 3, it is likely that she was raped. She had the story and evidence of trauma (both physical forced entry and emotional), so her case to be made was pretty solid. Yet she was instead punished equally to the man. Do you think that this is fair? Or that it makes sense? If the girl had no physical evidence of rape then the case would be nothing more than hearsay. Then I might also hold the view of, "well there's nothing to prove so nothing can be done".

My issue is that the rape kit does not prove that a rape occurred. It makes it likely, and the trauma add to the likelihood, but it is not proof.

There is no way to prove that a rape actually occured if we use your definition of proof, which is obviously an audio/visual recording of the event. If this is how we define proof in cases of rape then we are ignoring the fact that while physical proof may not always present itself, when it does present itself, this evidence combined with an account that is consistent with physical evidence makes it more likely to be true.

While I do not agree that one-time rape offenders should face jail time, they should at the very least receive some sort of punishment. The guy in this story didn't. That isn't justice.

So, without proof, what is the school to do?
What should the cops do?

The cops should have pressed charges against the man. The school should have done nothing, unless he was found guilty of rape on their premises. Then they punish accordingly.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/26/2013 6:04:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:04:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Why?
In no other legal setting do we just assume to punish one party over another.
We don't say, "Hey, that guy stole my wallet. Let's punish him.".

There is likely no evidence that shows the sex wasn't consensual, which is the problem.
By saying accusations alone ought to be enough, it does give women (generally) the power to sabotage others, for revenge or jealousy or the intended purpose of rape.

Poe's law, lol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/27/2013 2:09:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 5:05:56 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 4:55:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If I had an opinion on this woman, I would say she was indeed raped.
My opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

It seems that rape is consistent with trauma, but trauma can occur in the event of consensual sex, and trauma can be absent even in the course of rape.

Let's break this down.

1) Rape tends to result in some physical and emotional trauma.
2) The girl claimed to have been raped and displayed signs of physical and mental trauma.
3) Trauma in the event of consensual sex is rare.

Given 1, 2 and 3, it is likely that she was raped. She had the story and evidence of trauma (both physical forced entry and emotional), so her case to be made was pretty solid. Yet she was instead punished equally to the man. Do you think that this is fair? Or that it makes sense? If the girl had no physical evidence of rape then the case would be nothing more than hearsay. Then I might also hold the view of, "well there's nothing to prove so nothing can be done".

Do you think it is fair to imprison this man with only a medical opinion that says her trauma is consistent with rape and her story? If so, we are at an impasse. I am pretty sure you have said that this trauma can occur due to consensual sex (unlikely, but can), and that trauma can not exist for rape as well. So, while this is good evidence that a rape occurred, it is not conclusive, just likely.

If not, I don't see how you can expect a school to punish the man without finding him guilty. I suppose the school could have their own investigation/trial established where the verdict only affects school decisions. But, without that, are you saying that this man's academic future should be forfeited solely on the say so of a woman (who is unlikely to lie, yes) and evidence that is consistent, but not conclusive, of a rape?

Again, and I don't mean to demean the act by any means, but how is this different than cheating on a test? Why would I let you copy off me, when I am a straight A student? I obviously didn't copy you, so you must be guilty. Why are we both punished?

My issue is that the rape kit does not prove that a rape occurred. It makes it likely, and the trauma add to the likelihood, but it is not proof.

There is no way to prove that a rape actually occured if we use your definition of proof, which is obviously an audio/visual recording of the event. If this is how we define proof in cases of rape then we are ignoring the fact that while physical proof may not always present itself, when it does present itself, this evidence combined with an account that is consistent with physical evidence makes it more likely to be true.
I don't deny this, but it isn't proof. It is consistent, and likely, but hardly foolproof.

While I do not agree that one-time rape offenders should face jail time, they should at the very least receive some sort of punishment. The guy in this story didn't. That isn't justice.
Agreed, but that is not the issue I am arguing.

So, without proof, what is the school to do?
What should the cops do?

The cops should have pressed charges against the man. The school should have done nothing, unless he was found guilty of rape on their premises. Then they punish accordingly.

On the surface, this seems fine, but that opens the door for "we had sex, and were caught, so I'll say he raped me, it won't be proven so he won't go to jail, but I won't get suspended" mind-set.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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12/27/2013 2:13:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.

So, Ore_Ele, if you were in charge of this school, and you found trauma consistent of rape and her story vs. he says it was consensual, what do you do? Punish one, both, or neither?
If you were the police, would you arrest him?
My work here is, finally, done.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/27/2013 3:14:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 2:13:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.

So, Ore_Ele, if you were in charge of this school, and you found trauma consistent of rape and her story vs. he says it was consensual, what do you do? Punish one, both, or neither?
If you were the police, would you arrest him?

Let me start by saying that I'm not familiar with any legal obligations that schools may be faced with.

If I was in charge of the school, both students would be punished for lewd behaviors as they both voluntarily went into that band room for inappropriate behaviors. If it would be "suspension" or something else would depend on past records and other factors, though it would like be a warning and probably making them wash everything in the room, including the carpet (though I wouldn't require them to do it together). I would recommend the girl acting through the police and the legal system and would cooperate with them to a full extent. Though I would recommend that any investigation be kept private until/unless real evidence is found, as such accusations can ruin both party's lives if they are not true or provable.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/27/2013 3:21:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 3:14:08 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/27/2013 2:13:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.

So, Ore_Ele, if you were in charge of this school, and you found trauma consistent of rape and her story vs. he says it was consensual, what do you do? Punish one, both, or neither?
If you were the police, would you arrest him?

Let me start by saying that I'm not familiar with any legal obligations that schools may be faced with.

If I was in charge of the school, both students would be punished for lewd behaviors as they both voluntarily went into that band room for inappropriate behaviors. If it would be "suspension" or something else would depend on past records and other factors, though it would like be a warning and probably making them wash everything in the room, including the carpet (though I wouldn't require them to do it together). I would recommend the girl acting through the police and the legal system and would cooperate with them to a full extent. Though I would recommend that any investigation be kept private until/unless real evidence is found, as such accusations can ruin both party's lives if they are not true or provable.

We should also pause since we are basing our arguments entirely from a single, one-sided source that only referenced a single line (not even a full sentence) from the medical report.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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12/28/2013 12:28:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Rape victims, after all are always truthful about being rape victims because they are rape victims. And if you disagree you hate women and support rape.
Tsar of DDO
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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12/28/2013 3:20:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Khaos, pl0x stop talking forever. Kthx.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Ore_Ele
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12/28/2013 3:26:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 12:28:45 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Rape victims, after all are always truthful about being rape victims because they are rape victims. And if you disagree you hate women and support rape.

As a rape victim myself, I can say that is the absolute truth.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/28/2013 5:22:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 3:26:42 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/28/2013 12:28:45 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Rape victims, after all are always truthful about being rape victims because they are rape victims. And if you disagree you hate women and support rape.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

As a rape victim myself, I can say that is the absolute truth.

I am sorry to hear that.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/28/2013 5:23:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 3:20:40 AM, Noumena wrote:
Khaos, pl0x stop talking forever. Kthx.

What did I do, besides probably not explaining myself well?
My work here is, finally, done.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/28/2013 11:29:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 3:26:42 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/28/2013 12:28:45 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:46:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/26/2013 3:20:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
While the school should have investigated, I doubt any solid evidence to prove rape had occurred would be found. (I assume the man admitted to it, and said it was consensual)

Thus, at the end of the day, what is provable? That sex happened on school grounds.
1) It's a travesty, but outside of proof, what else can they do? Punish the man, but not the woman?

Of course, the man should be punished on accusations alone.

Rape victims, after all are always truthful about being rape victims because they are rape victims. And if you disagree you hate women and support rape.

2) As a rape victim myself, I can say that is the absolute truth.

1) The problem with this specific case was that the WOMAN was punished.

2) While this particular statement is tautological, the problem arises when someone who is NOT a rape victim talks about being a victim of rape.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/28/2013 11:36:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 3:21:44 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/27/2013 3:14:08 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/27/2013 2:13:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.

So, Ore_Ele, if you were in charge of this school, and you found trauma consistent of rape and her story vs. he says it was consensual, what do you do? Punish one, both, or neither?
If you were the police, would you arrest him?

Let me start by saying that I'm not familiar with any legal obligations that schools may be faced with.

If I was in charge of the school, both students would be punished for lewd behaviors as they both voluntarily went into that band room for inappropriate behaviors.

I disagree, there is no evidence or testimony that they went into the band room for "inappropriate behaviors".

All we have is solid evidence of sexual intercourse, and an unsubstantiated (and probably unsubstantiable) accusation of rape, i.e. lack of consent.

If it would be "suspension" or something else would depend on past records and other factors, though it would like be a warning and probably making them wash everything in the room, including the carpet (though I wouldn't require them to do it together). I would recommend the girl acting through the police and the legal system and would cooperate with them to a full extent. Though I would recommend that any investigation be kept private until/unless real evidence is found, as such accusations can ruin both party's lives if they are not true or provable.

We should also pause since we are basing our arguments entirely from a single, one-sided source that only referenced a single line (not even a full sentence) from the medical report.

The source of the source, NBC, has a bit more detail:

Jimerson said a security-camera video showed Bradshaw-Bean walking into the band room behind the boy; it did not show what happened inside the room. "In cases like this, you can either substantiate or not substantiate the claims," he said. "We broke it down with her version of events and his. Her claims could not be substantiated. At the end of the day, I just know that objectively, there was almost no chance of a conviction. As a prosecutor, I have to be vigilant about the cases I pursue."

He said the medical report is inconclusive, as lacerations to the hymen could occur from either consensual sex or sexual assault, and medical experts would testify to that. In addition, he said, according to his notes on the case, Bradshaw-Bean had used language that "implied consensual sex instead of forcible rape" in the interview with the forensic specialist, such as, "I am not saying I did not want to do it." Jimerson says he does not have the context"the statements made before and after that remark"in his notes.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
InvictusManeo
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12/28/2013 11:46:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 6:12:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Vaginal dryness is actually very common and is exacerbated (cross that one off my "try to use these 20 words before the end of the year" list) by both hormonal birth control (the pill) and stress (being a freaking teenager).

Sure. But assuming this girl was complicit, and they both wanted to have sex, she could have asked the guy to stop and use some kind of lubricant if it hurt which by the sounds of 'lacerations and bleeding' it would have hurt.

That's what I mean when I say it is uncommon for women to have vaginal damage from complicit sex. Unless the girl has some kind of pain fetish no woman will agree to sex that is painful.

As for motive, no idea. There doesn't always need to be one, and the lack of one does not make such a statement true. We can just look at the resent Winston case, where the girl accused rape, but it was later found that she continued seeing him after the accused incident (so clearly, she was lying). No idea why she lied, but she did.

In your case above her motive may have been resentment or revenge. I don't know whether or not the girl in this story still has contact with the guy but something like that would have been found out by now, surely.

As for this, I don't know why a case from 3+ years ago is what you want to present as the case for the underlying issue, but surely, if this is such a big issue, then there should be a number of cases from this month alone that you can point to.

I don't have a real opinion on whether or not I think rape is a big issue. I think rape is terrible, but I do think it has become the focal issue of modern feminism and is overblown in proportion to its actual incidence. Especially considering that more men are raped by other men, than woman raped by other men (prison ofc). What I do have a problem with though is the anti-feminist backlash that is occurring whereby seemingly decent people will view any rape case as a smear campaign against men automatically - or to assume that 'most girls lie' about being raped. It's almost as if girls have cried wolf often enough to render the seriousness of genuine rape crime as negligible. We don't treat rape cases on a case bycase basis anymore. We all taint them with our biases. And it's easy to spot bias in people's posts.
InvictusManeo
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12/28/2013 11:52:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 11:36:47 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
He said the medical report is inconclusive, as lacerations to the hymen could occur from either consensual sex or sexual assault, and medical experts would testify to that. In addition, he said, according to his notes on the case, Bradshaw-Bean had used language that "implied consensual sex instead of forcible rape" in the interview with the forensic specialist, such as, "I am not saying I did not want to do it." Jimerson says he does not have the context"the statements made before and after that remark"in his notes.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com...

The fact that she was a virgin then makes this harder to deliberate on. It could have started off as consensual and progressed to rape. But yeah, that quote is important.

Still think the way they (the school) handled it was pretty poor.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/28/2013 11:54:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 11:52:27 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/28/2013 11:36:47 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
He said the medical report is inconclusive, as lacerations to the hymen could occur from either consensual sex or sexual assault, and medical experts would testify to that. In addition, he said, according to his notes on the case, Bradshaw-Bean had used language that "implied consensual sex instead of forcible rape" in the interview with the forensic specialist, such as, "I am not saying I did not want to do it." Jimerson says he does not have the context"the statements made before and after that remark"in his notes.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com...

The fact that she was a virgin then makes this harder to deliberate on. It could have started off as consensual and progressed to rape. But yeah, that quote is important.

I didn't know she was a virgin...I don't recall that being noted in anything I read.

Still think the way they (the school) handled it was pretty poor.

Agree.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/28/2013 11:56:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 11:54:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/28/2013 11:52:27 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/28/2013 11:36:47 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
He said the medical report is inconclusive, as lacerations to the hymen could occur from either consensual sex or sexual assault, and medical experts would testify to that. In addition, he said, according to his notes on the case, Bradshaw-Bean had used language that "implied consensual sex instead of forcible rape" in the interview with the forensic specialist, such as, "I am not saying I did not want to do it." Jimerson says he does not have the context"the statements made before and after that remark"in his notes.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com...

The fact that she was a virgin then makes this harder to deliberate on. It could have started off as consensual and progressed to rape. But yeah, that quote is important.

I didn't know she was a virgin...I don't recall that being noted in anything I read.

Still think the way they (the school) handled it was pretty poor.

Agree.

Well as for the virgin comment the medical report mentioned damage to the hymen so she would have been a virgin prior to the incidence. Something as small as a finger can tear those things.