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The Rape Epidemic Doesn't Actually Exist

Wallstreetatheist
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2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...
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Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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2/18/2014 8:25:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Oookay. Any explanations so far on this ? It may not necessarily mean rape has reduced.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Khaos_Mage
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2/18/2014 8:39:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am too lazy to do the research, but hasn't the female college student population exploded? If so, then the same number of rapes over twice the population, results in a 50% decrease.

The number of rapes period is the so-called epidemic, not the rate.
My work here is, finally, done.
themohawkninja
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2/18/2014 8:56:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:39:19 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
The number of rapes period is the so-called epidemic, not the rate.

That's a very poor way of referring to something as an epidemic, at least in my opinion. (maybe the definition of an epidemic is only based on a number and not a rate, so it counts, I don't know).
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
themohawkninja
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2/18/2014 8:58:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

I've been so lazy in trying to disprove the whole "one in four women will get raped" statistic, and it just falls right into my wi-fi card... awesome.

Granted, that alleged statistic was over a whole lifetime, but it still sounds unrealistically high.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Oryus
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2/18/2014 11:27:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Where do the statistics you shared come from?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Wallstreetatheist
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2/21/2014 1:39:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 11:27:01 PM, Oryus wrote:
Where do the statistics you shared come from?

Gubment
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Wallstreetatheist
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2/21/2014 1:41:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 1:39:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:27:01 PM, Oryus wrote:
Where do the statistics you shared come from?

Gubment

For 1994-2010
https://www.ncjrs.gov...
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Oryus
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2/21/2014 1:57:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 1:41:33 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 2/21/2014 1:39:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:27:01 PM, Oryus wrote:
Where do the statistics you shared come from?

Gubment

For 1994-2010
https://www.ncjrs.gov...

lawl @ gubment. well you already heard what I have to say about it. I don't care about the peanut gallery's opinions.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Wallstreetatheist
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2/21/2014 2:53:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

Charles, how should we go about fixing this problem?
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Oryus
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2/21/2014 3:44:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

I often wonder what the endgame is in downplaying it. Sometimes I think, "hey, that's great. They are so disgusted by it that it is unbelievable to them." Then other times I just find it disrespectful and careless because the denial of it itself contributes to the problem of it- the fact that the stats cited in the OP are so low. Drawn from police reports and official hospital records- yes the stats are low. Because so many are discouraged from coming forward... because so many people are wont to blame the victim in an effort to downplay it's frequency in our society. It perpetuates itself- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/21/2014 4:18:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 3:44:06 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

I often wonder what the endgame is in downplaying it. Sometimes I think, "hey, that's great. They are so disgusted by it that it is unbelievable to them." Then other times I just find it disrespectful and careless because the denial of it itself contributes to the problem of it- the fact that the stats cited in the OP are so low. Drawn from police reports and official hospital records- yes the stats are low. Because so many are discouraged from coming forward... because so many people are wont to blame the victim in an effort to downplay it's frequency in our society. It perpetuates itself- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Such a typical response. Until you prove that the quiet victims increase the rate to epidemic levels, it's a poor response as well. Remember many women lie about rape as well. How many guys do you think have been convicted based off false rape charges?

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.

I believe you are confusing not acknowledging rape as an epidemic as not acknowledging rape as a problem. Sweden... They have a rape epidemic. The US does not. Rape is a problem, that doesn't make it an epidemic. Red Herring is looked down upon here.
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Oryus
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2/21/2014 2:57:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 4:18:25 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/21/2014 3:44:06 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

I often wonder what the endgame is in downplaying it. Sometimes I think, "hey, that's great. They are so disgusted by it that it is unbelievable to them." Then other times I just find it disrespectful and careless because the denial of it itself contributes to the problem of it- the fact that the stats cited in the OP are so low. Drawn from police reports and official hospital records- yes the stats are low. Because so many are discouraged from coming forward... because so many people are wont to blame the victim in an effort to downplay it's frequency in our society. It perpetuates itself- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Such a typical response. Until you prove that the quiet victims increase the rate to epidemic levels, it's a poor response as well. Remember many women lie about rape as well. How many guys do you think have been convicted based off false rape charges?

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.

I believe you are confusing not acknowledging rape as an epidemic as not acknowledging rape as a problem. Sweden... They have a rape epidemic. The US does not. Rape is a problem, that doesn't make it an epidemic. Red Herring is looked down upon here.

If you care so much, look up the studies yourself rather than naysaying in ignorance. I don't have the time or the care to look them up to show you.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/21/2014 3:13:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 2:57:44 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:18:25 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/21/2014 3:44:06 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

I often wonder what the endgame is in downplaying it. Sometimes I think, "hey, that's great. They are so disgusted by it that it is unbelievable to them." Then other times I just find it disrespectful and careless because the denial of it itself contributes to the problem of it- the fact that the stats cited in the OP are so low. Drawn from police reports and official hospital records- yes the stats are low. Because so many are discouraged from coming forward... because so many people are wont to blame the victim in an effort to downplay it's frequency in our society. It perpetuates itself- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Such a typical response. Until you prove that the quiet victims increase the rate to epidemic levels, it's a poor response as well. Remember many women lie about rape as well. How many guys do you think have been convicted based off false rape charges?

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.

I believe you are confusing not acknowledging rape as an epidemic as not acknowledging rape as a problem. Sweden... They have a rape epidemic. The US does not. Rape is a problem, that doesn't make it an epidemic. Red Herring is looked down upon here.

If you care so much, look up the studies yourself rather than naysaying in ignorance. I don't have the time or the care to look them up to show you.

What? How does this even relate to me telling you that "not acknowledging rape as an epidemic (is not the same as) not acknowledging rape as a problem"? What numbers? What studies? I already looked them up, how do you think I came to my conclusion? We have 27 rapes per 100,000. That means that 99.991% of all rapes would have to go unreported in order for the 1 in 4 theory to be true.

27 rapes per 100,000 is literally 0.00027% of the population... Hardly an epidemic... More people die from diarrhea.
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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/21/2014 3:31:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:56:15 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:39:19 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
The number of rapes period is the so-called epidemic, not the rate.

That's a very poor way of referring to something as an epidemic, at least in my opinion. (maybe the definition of an epidemic is only based on a number and not a rate, so it counts, I don't know).

I think the actually term for epidemic refers to rate.
However, I think most people use that term as a buzz word for "issue" or "problem". And, rapes are a problem if they are large in number, not necessarily in rate, IMO, like with most crimes.

For example, if of 100,000 women in colleges in a tri-state there are 1000 that are raped in a given year, that is only 1%. Hardly an epidemic, but a problem that should be looked into.
Now, if that same tri-state area booms and has 200,000 women, and 1500 rapes. That is a decrease in rapes as a rate, but increase in amount. I would not call that an epidemic, but I wouldn't say the problem is fixed, either.
My work here is, finally, done.
themohawkninja
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2/21/2014 3:39:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 3:31:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:56:15 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:39:19 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
The number of rapes period is the so-called epidemic, not the rate.

That's a very poor way of referring to something as an epidemic, at least in my opinion. (maybe the definition of an epidemic is only based on a number and not a rate, so it counts, I don't know).

I think the actually term for epidemic refers to rate.
However, I think most people use that term as a buzz word for "issue" or "problem". And, rapes are a problem if they are large in number, not necessarily in rate, IMO, like with most crimes.

For example, if of 100,000 women in colleges in a tri-state there are 1000 that are raped in a given year, that is only 1%. Hardly an epidemic, but a problem that should be looked into.
Now, if that same tri-state area booms and has 200,000 women, and 1500 rapes. That is a decrease in rapes as a rate, but increase in amount. I would not call that an epidemic, but I wouldn't say the problem is fixed, either.

I quite agree. Such a situation is neither an epidemic nor a solved problem.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/21/2014 3:44:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 3:13:41 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/21/2014 2:57:44 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:18:25 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/21/2014 3:44:06 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 2:35:06 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture [http://www.bjs.gov...]. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students. Other DOJ statistics show that the overall rape rate is in sharp decline: since 1995, the estimated rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations has decreased by about 60 percent [http://www.bjs.gov...].
http://www.usnews.com...

Ah, defensive males who have the need to downplay the enormity and sociological significance of rape in our society.

I often wonder what the endgame is in downplaying it. Sometimes I think, "hey, that's great. They are so disgusted by it that it is unbelievable to them." Then other times I just find it disrespectful and careless because the denial of it itself contributes to the problem of it- the fact that the stats cited in the OP are so low. Drawn from police reports and official hospital records- yes the stats are low. Because so many are discouraged from coming forward... because so many people are wont to blame the victim in an effort to downplay it's frequency in our society. It perpetuates itself- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Such a typical response. Until you prove that the quiet victims increase the rate to epidemic levels, it's a poor response as well. Remember many women lie about rape as well. How many guys do you think have been convicted based off false rape charges?

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.

I believe you are confusing not acknowledging rape as an epidemic as not acknowledging rape as a problem. Sweden... They have a rape epidemic. The US does not. Rape is a problem, that doesn't make it an epidemic. Red Herring is looked down upon here.

If you care so much, look up the studies yourself rather than naysaying in ignorance. I don't have the time or the care to look them up to show you.

What? How does this even relate to me telling you that "not acknowledging rape as an epidemic (is not the same as) not acknowledging rape as a problem"? What numbers? What studies?

AS PREVIOUSLY STATED: SURVEY STUDIES. As for your other question, I ignore any comments I find completely irrelevant so if you want to keep talking, then expect more of that.

I already looked them up, how do you think I came to my conclusion? We have 27 rapes per :100,000. That means that 99.991% of all rapes would have to go unreported in :order for the 1 in 4 theory to be true.

Yes. Why is this bolded statement so unbelievable to you? That is a non-rhetorical question being the meat of this entire response. What makes it unbelievable to you? Why is it so shocking? The rest of these questions- you can answer or not, they are mostly rhetorical. Do you have any concept at all of how traumatizing it is to be raped and then report this to police and doctors- where you suffer further trauma? I've known dozens who have suffered sexual assault- men and women- some of them many times over a lifetime- only one of them reported it. One. And she only reported it the one time it happened to her- it had happened before from a boyfriend- who should absolutely be in jail right now. And this case she reported was a stereotypical yet uncommon case of stranger rape- someone broke into her home and raped her in her own bed. Left DNA evidence and everything. Pretty straight-forward. You know what happened to that guy? Absolutely nothing. Know what happened to her? She was raped in her own home, where she should feel safe, then she was forced to sit in a police station by herself and be questioned where the police officer asked her what she was wearing and why she left her door unlocked (completely irrelevant information). This dragged on a long time and she was forced to relive the trauma yet, it happening so recently, she had barely even processed it herself. Then she had to go relive the trauma again when going to a hospital where she had to pay strangers to stick things up her vagina- after she was recently sexually assaulted. They asked her more questions about what happened. Then she went home, in the same clothes she wore while she was raped (because that's what they want during the investigation). No real investigation came. No conviction came. And it's still unbelievable to you that so many people do not report it? If you have any familiarity at all with what sexual assault is, how it is investigated, how embarrassingly low the conviction rate is if you even are lucky enough to have your sexual history scrutinized in court in front of strangers and your rapist, and then the backlash victims face inside and outside of court- unless you are a sociopath who has no sense of empathy, it's REALLY easy to see why reports of sexual assault are so low.
27 rapes per 100,000 is literally 0.00027% of the population... Hardly an epidemic... More people die from diarrhea.

Again, did you read survey studies or are you, like WSA, just looking at police reports and hospital records?

And if the 1 in 4 is so wrong- where are they getting this number? Did someone pull it out of thin air?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
donald.keller
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2/21/2014 4:24:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Such a typical response. Until you prove that the quiet victims increase the rate to epidemic levels, it's a poor response as well. Remember many women lie about rape as well. How many guys do you think have been convicted based off false rape charges?

WSA- A good start in solving the issue would be to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. First step in fixing any problem is acknowledging that it exists. And it is well-known that there is a discrepancy between cases reported to police and hospitals and incidents of sexual assault gathered through scientific studies. "Has anyone had sex with you after you told them to stop?" "Has anyone touched your genitals without your permission?" "Has anybody kept having sex with you after you said 'no'?" These are the kinds of questions asked on surveys. Questions based on the definition of what rape and sexual assault actually are are more likely to get an honest answer from sexual assault survivors. Ask a rape victim if they were "raped," like a cop or a doctor might, they will probably say no. Nobody wants to be defined by the horrible things that have happened to them. "Rape Victim." I wouldn't want that as part of my identity either. So much cultural baggage there. And this hesitance to admit the social problem exists is part of why that hesitation and thus underreporting exists.

I believe you are confusing not acknowledging rape as an epidemic as not acknowledging rape as a problem. Sweden... They have a rape epidemic. The US does not. Rape is a problem, that doesn't make it an epidemic. Red Herring is looked down upon here.

If you care so much, look up the studies yourself rather than naysaying in ignorance. I don't have the time or the care to look them up to show you.

What? How does this even relate to me telling you that "not acknowledging rape as an epidemic (is not the same as) not acknowledging rape as a problem"? What numbers? What studies?

AS PREVIOUSLY STATED: SURVEY STUDIES. As for your other question, I ignore any comments I find completely irrelevant so if you want to keep talking, then expect more of that.

I already looked them up, how do you think I came to my conclusion? We have 27 rapes per :100,000. That means that 99.991% of all rapes would have to go unreported in :order for the 1 in 4 theory to be true.

Yes. Why is this bolded statement so unbelievable to you? That is a non-rhetorical question being the meat of this entire response. What makes it unbelievable to you? Why is it so shocking? The rest of these questions- you can answer or not, they are mostly rhetorical. Do you have any concept at all of how traumatizing it is to be raped and then report this to police and doctors- where you suffer further trauma? I've known dozens who have suffered sexual assault- men and women- some of them many times over a lifetime- only one of them reported it. One. And she only reported it the one time it happened to her- it had happened before from a boyfriend- who should absolutely be in jail right now. And this case she reported was a stereotypical yet uncommon case of stranger rape- someone broke into her home and raped her in her own bed. Left DNA evidence and everything. Pretty straight-forward. You know what happened to that guy? Absolutely nothing. Know what happened to her? She was raped in her own home, where she should feel safe, then she was forced to sit in a police station by herself and be questioned where the police officer asked her what she was wearing and why she left her door unlocked (completely irrelevant information). This dragged on a long time and she was forced to relive the trauma yet, it happening so recently, she had barely even processed it herself. Then she had to go relive the trauma again when going to a hospital where she had to pay strangers to stick things up her vagina- after she was recently sexually assaulted. They asked her more questions about what happened. Then she went home, in the same clothes she wore while she was raped (because that's what they want during the investigation). No real investigation came. No conviction came. And it's still unbelievable to you that so many people do not report it? If you have any familiarity at all with what sexual assault is, how it is investigated, how embarrassingly low the conviction rate is if you even are lucky enough to have your sexual history scrutinized in court in front of strangers and your rapist, and then the backlash victims face inside and outside of court- unless you are a sociopath who has no sense of empathy, it's REALLY easy to see why reports of sexual assault are so low.

Do you know how stupidly extreme your position is? Have you ANY way of backing such an extreme claim that 99.99% of rapes go unreported? If you can't prove such a far out claim, then keep your claims to yourself.

27 rapes per 100,000 is literally 0.00027% of the population... Hardly an epidemic... More people die from diarrhea.

Again, did you read survey studies or are you, like WSA, just looking at police reports and hospital records?

1: Police reports and Hospital records are excellent sources. 2: They are where most studies get their reports from. Unless you can prove the source is bad, your criticism is greatly fallacious.

And if the 1 in 4 is so wrong- where are they getting this number? Did someone pull it out of thin air?

Yes... Yes they did pull it from thin air. They got it from the same place ALL wrong statistics come from... Spam mail and chain letters... Teenagers who don't grasp good research before spreading ideas, and people who never read studies and police reports.

You have:
1) Denied a reliable source because it doesn't agree with you.
2) Didn't post a counter source or studies to support you after criticizing me (without actually knowing if I did or not.)
3) Asked a really stupid question.
You are almost as bad as Nummi
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Oryus
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2/21/2014 5:28:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 4:24:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:

You have:
1.) Ignored the only question I actually asked you
2.) Stawmanned amazingly pulling quotes of mine out of thin air. I never said that the police and hospital records were WRONG- I said they are not the whole picture.
3.) Failed to acknowledge the real source of the statistics and, again, like I said initially, I don't have time or the care to show you. If you really gave a sh1t, you could look it up yourself. I learned about the studies from some people who have actually conducted them and I can tell you that you're wrong- they don't "ALL" come from spam mail. Your research is incomplete.

Don't mistake my lack of sharing these studies with me lacking the information. I honestly couldn't care less what you think. I'm far more interested in why you think it. The entire point of my responding in this thread at all was to find an answer to my own question: "Why is this unbelievable to you?" So I suppose your indirect answer is 1.) you mistakenly think the 1 in 4 stat comes from "spam mail." Well, really, in reality, a more accurate criticism of this stat would be that it disproportionately represents college-aged women because those are the ones who are most often participating in the studies where this stat is derived- which are conducted on college campuses across the country and reaffirmed repeatedly. And the other part of your indirect answer is 2.) you think that acknowledging a.) the trauma of sexual assault and b.) the trauma of reporting sexual assault and c.) the extremely low conviction rate in explaining the low official report rate is "stupidly extreme" and "far out."

So, basically what you're saying is, the number is SO high to you that you simply can't believe it. 1.) The stats are from spam mail and/or entirely made up, 2.) many of the official reports are made by lying women, and 3.) there's no conceivable reason why so many women and men would seek to avoid reporting sexual assault to the authorities.

Have I got that right?

If you care to respond again- try answering any or all of these:

What would it take to show you that you are indeed wrong?
Or to be more specific:
Of what quality would the studies have to be for the stats to be trustworthy?
What methodology must be employed and by whom?
Who needs to be asked the questions and what kinds of questions?
And on top of that:
What horrors would the victims have to endure to make the low report rate believable?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
donald.keller
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2/21/2014 5:45:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 5:28:14 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:24:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:

You have:
1.) Ignored the only question I actually asked you
Your question was stupid, and unsupportable.

2.) Stawmanned amazingly pulling quotes of mine out of thin air. I never said that the police and hospital records were WRONG- I said they are not the whole picture.
I didn't pull strawman. I simply explained the implications of what you said. If Police Reports and Hospital Records are fine, than your whole quote and everything related to it was pointless.

3.) Failed to acknowledge the real source of the statistics and, again, like I said initially, I don't have time or the care to show you. If you really gave a sh1t, you could look it up yourself. I learned about the studies from some people who have actually conducted them and I can tell you that you're wrong- they don't "ALL" come from spam mail. Your research is incomplete.
My statistics came from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. You Are the only one here refusing to acknowledge the sources.

Don't mistake my lack of sharing these studies with me lacking the information. I honestly couldn't care less what you think. I'm far more interested in why you think it. The entire point of my responding in this thread at all was to find an answer to my own question: "Why is this unbelievable to you?" So I suppose your indirect answer is 1.) you mistakenly think the 1 in 4 stat comes from "spam mail." Well, really, in reality, a more accurate criticism of this stat would be that it disproportionately represents college-aged women because those are the ones who are most often participating in the studies where this stat is derived- which are conducted on college campuses across the country and reaffirmed repeatedly. And the other part of your indirect answer is 2.) you think that acknowledging a.) the trauma of sexual assault and b.) the trauma of reporting sexual assault and c.) the extremely low conviction rate in explaining the low official report rate is "stupidly extreme" and "far out."

If you don't care what other people think, this isn't the site for you and you should leave. The 1 in 4 stats has literally no ground in evidence or statistics. It was a dumb stat that sounded really bad, and everyone ran with it. Like many other fake stats. Unless you can source back to a legitimate study or report backing the stat. I have a reliable source backing my stats, you don't.

So, basically what you're saying is, the number is SO high to you that you simply can't believe it. 1.) The stats are from spam mail and/or entirely made up, 2.) many of the official reports are made by lying women, and 3.) there's no conceivable reason why so many women and men would seek to avoid reporting sexual assault to the authorities.

No. That's a terrible misrepresentation of what I said, and highly unprofessional. I would entirely believe it... If it wasn't 926x what the actual stats claim.

Have I got that right?

As we see. You do not.

If you care to respond again- try answering any or all of these:

What would it take to show you that you are indeed wrong?
A source from the Government or Police Reports proving you are right. One so great as to disprove the BJS.

Or to be more specific:
Of what quality would the studies have to be for the stats to be trustworthy?
Enough to discredit highly accredited government stats.

What methodology must be employed and by whom?
Surprise me.

Who needs to be asked the questions and what kinds of questions?
Surprise me.

And on top of that:
What horrors would the victims have to endure to make the low report rate believable?

I'm not sure why that matters? Rape is a terrible thing that should be tackled with immense force and dedication. How bad the rape is doesn't really relate to how many rapes there are. That's more an appeal to emotion.
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Oryus
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2/21/2014 5:58:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 5:45:43 PM, donald.keller wrote:
What would it take to show you that you are indeed wrong?
A source from the Government or Police Reports proving you are right. One so great as to disprove the BJS.

So you would have to see police reports of rape to show that the rate of police reports is lower than the actual rate of rape. Interesting.
Of what quality would the studies have to be for the stats to be trustworthy?
Enough to discredit highly accredited government stats.
Maybe ones that are conducted by, oh I don't know, highly esteemed sexual violence researchers granted money to do so by the government at an accredited public university? Would that do it?
And on top of that:
What horrors would the victims have to endure to make the low report rate believable?

I'm not sure why that matters? Rape is a terrible thing that should be tackled with immense force and dedication. How bad the rape is doesn't really relate to how many rapes there are. That's more an appeal to emotion.

It's not an appeal to emotion- you are not fully cognizant of the social aspect of this and this is why you don't understand the question.

Here are some rephrased questions that might make more sense to you: Why do you think a person might not report a rape that has happened to them? or What is a good reason to not report a rape that definitely happened to you?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bluesteel
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2/21/2014 6:10:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 3:44:06 PM, Oryus wrote:


I already looked them up, how do you think I came to my conclusion? We have 27 rapes per :100,000. That means that 99.991% of all rapes would have to go unreported in :order for the 1 in 4 theory to be true.

Yes. Why is this bolded statement so unbelievable to you? That is a non-rhetorical question being the meat of this entire response. What makes it unbelievable to you? Why is it so shocking? The rest of these questions- you can answer or not, they are mostly rhetorical. Do you have any concept at all of how traumatizing it is to be raped and then report this to police and doctors- where you suffer further trauma? I've known dozens who have suffered sexual assault- men and women- some of them many times over a lifetime- only one of them reported it. One. And she only reported it the one time it happened to her- it had happened before from a boyfriend- who should absolutely be in jail right now. And this case she reported was a stereotypical yet uncommon case of stranger rape- someone broke into her home and raped her in her own bed. Left DNA evidence and everything. Pretty straight-forward. You know what happened to that guy? Absolutely nothing. Know what happened to her? She was raped in her own home, where she should feel safe, then she was forced to sit in a police station by herself and be questioned where the police officer asked her what she was wearing and why she left her door unlocked (completely irrelevant information). This dragged on a long time and she was forced to relive the trauma yet, it happening so recently, she had barely even processed it herself. Then she had to go relive the trauma again when going to a hospital where she had to pay strangers to stick things up her vagina- after she was recently sexually assaulted. They asked her more questions about what happened. Then she went home, in the same clothes she wore while she was raped (because that's what they want during the investigation). No real investigation came. No conviction came. And it's still unbelievable to you that so many people do not report it? If you have any familiarity at all with what sexual assault is, how it is investigated, how embarrassingly low the conviction rate is if you even are lucky enough to have your sexual history scrutinized in court in front of strangers and your rapist, and then the backlash victims face inside and outside of court- unless you are a sociopath who has no sense of empathy, it's REALLY easy to see why reports of sexual assault are so low.

This is chilling...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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2/21/2014 6:15:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have an immature sense of humor, so I think this joke is really funny:

Guy says to other guy, "if you went camping with a bunch of people, got really drunk, passed out, and when you woke up the next morning, your butt was really sore - would you tell anyone?"

Guy2: "ummm .... .... .... no"

Guy1: "Want to go camping?"

Except I now realize how sad a social commentary it is that this joke works 99% of the time since there is so much social stigma that nearly every guy's answer is "no."
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Jack212
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2/21/2014 6:15:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:


Rape studies often forget three things that are essential in statistics:

1. Large sample size. Any sample will have sample mean, but the act of sampling means that it won't necessarily reflect the population mean. The larger your sample, the closer the two means will be.

2. Random sampling. Like it or not, there are lifestyle factors that affect your chances of getting raped. If you take your sample from a women's shelter, you'll have a higher number of rape victims than if you take it from the general population. Same if you target a low-demographic neighbourhood, a college campus or a prison. In each case, you have other factors that will skew your data and must be controlled for.

3. Independence. If you get two people from the same family, same dorm, etc, then they are not independent variables. If one of those people has been sexually assaulted, it can affect the odds that the other person will be too.

Also, the 1 in 4 thing is bullsh*t. It was based on a flawed study that asked leading questions and didn't properly define "sexual assault" within the context of the study. At the very most it would be 1 in 12, and at least 1 in 50. The actual figure probably sits somewhere in the middle.
Oryus
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2/21/2014 6:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:10:00 PM, bluesteel wrote:
This is chilling...

It really is. And two years later, when I run into her, it's obvious it still affects her life. It makes me sick that I can do nothing to help her. I started keeping pepper spray on my headboard after what happened to her because I know now exactly how poorly the police treat these cases in my town. We're basically on our own.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bluesteel
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2/21/2014 6:22:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:15:23 PM, Jack212 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:


Rape studies often forget three things that are essential in statistics:

1. Large sample size. Any sample will have sample mean, but the act of sampling means that it won't necessarily reflect the population mean. The larger your sample, the closer the two means will be.

2. Random sampling. Like it or not, there are lifestyle factors that affect your chances of getting raped. If you take your sample from a women's shelter, you'll have a higher number of rape victims than if you take it from the general population. Same if you target a low-demographic neighbourhood, a college campus or a prison. In each case, you have other factors that will skew your data and must be controlled for.

3. Independence. If you get two people from the same family, same dorm, etc, then they are not independent variables. If one of those people has been sexually assaulted, it can affect the odds that the other person will be too.

Also, the 1 in 4 thing is bullsh*t. It was based on a flawed study that asked leading questions and didn't properly define "sexual assault" within the context of the study. At the very most it would be 1 in 12, and at least 1 in 50. The actual figure probably sits somewhere in the middle.

You forgot the basic flaw is using any criminological data:

Arrests/convictions =/= prevalence
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Oryus
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2/21/2014 6:23:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:15:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I have an immature sense of humor, so I think this joke is really funny:

Guy says to other guy, "if you went camping with a bunch of people, got really drunk, passed out, and when you woke up the next morning, your butt was really sore - would you tell anyone?"

Guy2: "ummm .... .... .... no"

Guy1: "Want to go camping?"

Except I now realize how sad a social commentary it is that this joke works 99% of the time since there is so much social stigma that nearly every guy's answer is "no."

Yeah, the rate of reports for men is even lower. It's really sad. If they were assaulted by a man, they have to deal with gayness stigma. If they were assaulted by a woman, they have to deal with gayness stigma (what? you didn't WANT to have sex with her? are you gay??) and also manliness (you couldn't fight off a woman?!). Plus they have to deal with being examined in a place they're probably not regularly checking out with the frequency that women have their vaginas penetrated and also looked at by strange doctors.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bluesteel
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2/21/2014 6:24:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:19:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:10:00 PM, bluesteel wrote:
This is chilling...

It really is. And two years later, when I run into her, it's obvious it still affects her life. It makes me sick that I can do nothing to help her. I started keeping pepper spray on my headboard after what happened to her because I know now exactly how poorly the police treat these cases in my town. We're basically on our own.

Yeah, I can imagine. I don't think anything could fracture my psyche more than the thought that I'm not safe in my own home.

Good on your for getting pepper spray. Probably the most effective self-defense tool short of a firearm. Although you should really carry one with you too.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Jack212
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2/21/2014 6:27:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:22:21 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:15:23 PM, Jack212 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:16:48 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:


Rape studies often forget three things that are essential in statistics:

1. Large sample size. Any sample will have sample mean, but the act of sampling means that it won't necessarily reflect the population mean. The larger your sample, the closer the two means will be.

2. Random sampling. Like it or not, there are lifestyle factors that affect your chances of getting raped. If you take your sample from a women's shelter, you'll have a higher number of rape victims than if you take it from the general population. Same if you target a low-demographic neighbourhood, a college campus or a prison. In each case, you have other factors that will skew your data and must be controlled for.

3. Independence. If you get two people from the same family, same dorm, etc, then they are not independent variables. If one of those people has been sexually assaulted, it can affect the odds that the other person will be too.

Also, the 1 in 4 thing is bullsh*t. It was based on a flawed study that asked leading questions and didn't properly define "sexual assault" within the context of the study. At the very most it would be 1 in 12, and at least 1 in 50. The actual figure probably sits somewhere in the middle.

You forgot the basic flaw is using any criminological data:

Arrests/convictions =/= prevalence

That is true, and it is a well-known limit with such studies. Ideally one would include a margin of error to account for unreported assaults.