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Piers Morgan trans* scandal

bluesteel
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2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"? Is gender a performance or about self-identity? Is identifying someone as a man identifying their gender or their "sex"? Is there a difference?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.
Tsar of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/20/2014 4:26:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
He is a coward for not brushing her/him off in the interview. He is right, one is formally a man or woman until a sex surgery. If this was not performed before 18, he should stand by what he said.
bluesteel
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2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.
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YYW
Posts: 36,263
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2/20/2014 10:14:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

Brilliant. There's nothing inaccurate, then, about what he said.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth.

They may have had the wrong parts, but even if you feel like your body has betrayed you, if you've got a penis, you're male. If you've got a vagina, you're female.

It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body.

The brain isn't the real object of concern...

So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

There isn't anything inaccurate about what Piers said, and sex reassignment surgery is a pretty sensational thing. It's incredibly expensive, a considerable risk (though, less so than in years past), and has a huge recovery time.

And Piers, based on what I read, didn't make any kind of judgement about the fact that this girl had sex reassignment surgery. If he did, I'd be judging him right now. But he didn't, so I'm not.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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2/20/2014 11:07:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is one of those situations where people who are looking to be offended at something are going to be offended, which is why I'm really apathetic to this whole incident.
Tsar of DDO
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/20/2014 11:22:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.

And the point is?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2014 11:35:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 10:14:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

Brilliant. There's nothing inaccurate, then, about what he said.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth.

They may have had the wrong parts, but even if you feel like your body has betrayed you, if you've got a penis, you're male. If you've got a vagina, you're female.

It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body.

The brain isn't the real object of concern...

So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

There isn't anything inaccurate about what Piers said, and sex reassignment surgery is a pretty sensational thing. It's incredibly expensive, a considerable risk (though, less so than in years past), and has a huge recovery time.

And Piers, based on what I read, didn't make any kind of judgement about the fact that this girl had sex reassignment surgery. If he did, I'd be judging him right now. But he didn't, so I'm not.

I don't know much about the situation aside from the clip I just watched to find out about the situation. But it seems like the problem wasn't what he said, as much as it was that the title card for her said "Janet Mock--was a boy until age 18". Putting that there is...odd. "Transgender activist" seems like a better title card.

I feel like it would be similar to bringing Bill Clinton on as a political analyst and putting on his identifier: "Bill Clinton--Cheated on his wife with a White House Intern". Accurate? Yeah. But still...
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2014 11:37:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 11:22:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.

And the point is?

That you seem wildly mistaken as to what you think Transsexuals's "beef" is.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/20/2014 11:57:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 11:37:16 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:22:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.

And the point is?

That you seem wildly mistaken as to what you think Transsexuals's "beef" is.

The only things they can blame based on their views are reality and gender roles. If I missed any, then please inform me of what I missed.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2014 12:08:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 11:57:07 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:37:16 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:22:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.

And the point is?

That you seem wildly mistaken as to what you think Transsexuals's "beef" is.

The only things they can blame based on their views are reality and gender roles. If I missed any, then please inform me of what I missed.

That's not what you said originally. You said "Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender."

I don't think "Gender roles" play a part whatsoever in most transsexuals's problems. They believe their body is deformed from what it should be. That has nothing to do with "gender roles" and everything to do with their physical sex.
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Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/20/2014 2:12:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 12:08:43 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:57:07 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:37:16 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:22:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 8:32:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:18:43 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:05:47 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 9:28:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2014 8:49:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Colbert, on the scandal:

Apparently it's not enough for these trans women that we treat them like women, they want to be treated like people too.

Who thinks that it was wrong for Piers to identify a transgender woman as "formerly a man until age 18"?

If, at age 18, the individual underwent a sex change operation, then there is nothing wrong with what Piers said. But if the individual underwent any sex change operation at any other age but 18, then the statement was in error. As of yet, you haven't given me enough details to know whether it was ok or not.

She had sex reassignment surgery at 18. Before that, she had a penis.

The controversy is that trans-women consider themselves - usually - to have always been women, since birth. It's supposed to be like having a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. So saying she was a man until age 18 seems to sensationalize the decision to have a sex change, as if it's something really weird rather than making her anatomy match her mind.

Lets go back 200 years to the time of slavery, and an enslaved African had thoughts and dreams about being free. Does this mean that he have a white brain trapped in a black body?

Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender. That doesn't mean it is logical for them to pretend to be from the other gender and demand suspension of disbelief from others.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't personally known any transsexuals.

And the point is?

That you seem wildly mistaken as to what you think Transsexuals's "beef" is.

The only things they can blame based on their views are reality and gender roles. If I missed any, then please inform me of what I missed.

That's not what you said originally. You said "Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender."

I don't think "Gender roles" play a part whatsoever in most transsexuals's problems. They believe their body is deformed from what it should be. That has nothing to do with "gender roles" and everything to do with their physical sex.

Sorry if I generated a bit of misunderstanding. I believe that what I mean is "Their real beef is with".
Chances are that the sense of identification to the other gender results from gender roles seeing that some claim to get their experience years before the age of puberty. Ie. sexual experience have little if any to do with it, so a psychological gender identity disorder is a main factor.

To be blunt, transexuals pretend to be of the other gender while ignoring physical objective reality. It is a wishful thinking fallacy.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2014 2:17:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 2:12:57 PM, Dragonfang wrote:

The only things they can blame based on their views are reality and gender roles. If I missed any, then please inform me of what I missed.

That's not what you said originally. You said "Transexuals beef is with gender roles, or what is to be expected from each gender."

I don't think "Gender roles" play a part whatsoever in most transsexuals's problems. They believe their body is deformed from what it should be. That has nothing to do with "gender roles" and everything to do with their physical sex.

Sorry if I generated a bit of misunderstanding. I believe that what I mean is "Their real beef is with".
Chances are that the sense of identification to the other gender results from gender roles seeing that some claim to get their experience years before the age of puberty. Ie. sexual experience have little if any to do with it, so a psychological gender identity disorder is a main factor.

But I don't think it's a "gender roles" issue. Gender roles are usually things like "Oh, the mom stays at home and the dad brings home the bacon" (yes, stereotypical 50's gender roles, but simple example). Transsexuals, by and large, have issues with their physical bodies. They may ALSO like certain aspects of gender roles that come with that, but I really don't think that's their main issue.

To be blunt, transexuals pretend to be of the other gender while ignoring physical objective reality. It is a wishful thinking fallacy.

I don't think it's a "fallacy"--they aren't unaware that their bodies do not have the equipment they want.

But let's do a hypothetical. You're a dude. Someone invents a drug that suddenly, overnight, turns your "outie" into an "innie". Would you be okay with that? You would really have a vagina. Would you be denying reality if you had problems and said you wanted to be a dude?
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