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Society and us/what is society?

Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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1/21/2010 11:48:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I started sociology so I have some thoughts. The first ones deal with the following questions which will lead into what I think society is.

1)Are we individuals or a product of society?

2)Are our choices based on individual choice or society choice?

I would say that point of the questions is a moot point because we are everything these questions ask. Everyone is an individual and a product of society.

Here is a thought of mine that relates to what was previously stated. Society produces individuals. Having said this what came first, the individual or society?

I think that the society and individual became manifest at the same time. I will now state my definition of society and then further expound upon it.

Society-When more than one sentient creature interacts with another sentient creature in a biosphere.

This is basically saying that if you have two sentient creatures they form a society. The environment of that society is the biosphere which encompasses the sentient creatures interactions in its environment.

This definition would fit a class room. It would also work for the world. it would also work if green martians decided to interact with us. By interact I mean 2 things. Either they are aware of in which case even ignoring would be interacting or they are unaware and effect each other.

Having stated my thoughts I would love to hear from the members of debate.org
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 7:30:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 11:48:43 AM, Kahvan wrote:
1)Are we individuals or a product of society?
Both.
2)Are our choices based on individual choice or society choice?
There is no such thing as society choice, but if you mean that our choices are based on what "society" has framed us to be, then the answer is, again, "both".
I would say that point of the questions is a moot point because we are everything these questions ask. Everyone is an individual and a product of society.
Winnar.
Here is a thought of mine that relates to what was previously stated. Society produces individuals. Having said this what came first, the individual or society?
Society cannot suffer. Individuals suffer. Society cannot feel pleasure. Individuals feel pleasure. Society cannot produce wealth. Individuals produce wealth. The individual must come first.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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1/21/2010 9:55:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 12:53:14 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/21/2010 11:48:43 AM, Kahvan wrote:
I started sociology

Oh dear.
I loll'ed so hard.

At 1/21/2010 11:48:43 AM, Kahvan wrote:
1)Are we individuals or a product of society?
False dichotomy. They are of two different levels, and not mutually exclusive. Unless I'm interpreting you wrong in which case I'd need your definitions.
2)Are our choices based on individual choice or society choice?
...yeah I'm gonna need your definitions. I don't know what either of those things mean.
I would say that point of the questions is a moot point because we are everything these questions ask. Everyone is an individual and a product of society.
I disagree. Everyone is a product of society, but no one is a product of all of society - individuals are individuals because each one has had a different amount of exposure to various infinite parts of society. The answers show which parts an individual has been in contact with / influenced by - if you know how to interpret them.
Here is a thought of mine that relates to what was previously stated. Society produces individuals. Having said this what came first, the individual or society?
I'm gonna need definitions again.
I think that the society and individual became manifest at the same time. I will now state my definition of society and then further expound upon it.
It's good manners to state definitions at the beginning.
Society-When more than one sentient creature interacts with another sentient creature in a biosphere.
I'm going to need that definition of "individual".
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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1/21/2010 9:58:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Actually, edit.

Here is a thought of mine that relates to what was previously stated. Society produces individuals. Having said this what came first, the individual or society?
The society. If the definition of an individual is a certain unique combination of the infinite aspects of society, then society must have been there before the individual could ever come about.

2)Are our choices based on individual choice or society choice?
Still gonna need defs for this one though.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/21/2010 10:24:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 9:55:02 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Everyone is a product of society, but no one is a product of all of society - individuals are individuals because each one has had a different amount of exposure to various infinite parts of society.

I would say there must be unique individual content, not derived from society in any way.

The ideas that Individuals have might be heavily influenced, and partially determined by the ideas of others in society that they come into contact with, but that individuals ideas are not a simple product of that interaction. There must be Unique Individual content, for 'society' itself doesn't experience/observe or think.

Some of your ideas may be adopted from others, or be amalgamations of various other ideas, there must be some 'New' ideas and those must be derived from individuals.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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1/22/2010 12:50:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 10:24:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/21/2010 9:55:02 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Everyone is a product of society, but no one is a product of all of society - individuals are individuals because each one has had a different amount of exposure to various infinite parts of society.

I would say there must be unique individual content, not derived from society in any way.

The ideas that Individuals have might be heavily influenced, and partially determined by the ideas of others in society that they come into contact with, but that individuals ideas are not a simple product of that interaction. There must be Unique Individual content, for 'society' itself doesn't experience/observe or think.

Some of your ideas may be adopted from others, or be amalgamations of various other ideas, there must be some 'New' ideas and those must be derived from individuals.

It is not possible to have "unique individual content, not derived from society in any way". To form any content at all, regardless of its origin, one must perceive. Reality is a sea of endless information, and to make sense out of any of it, one must judge that some content is more important than others, and ignore the rest. What one perceives is dependent on social experiences. And what one perceives affects anything else that has to do with the mind.

To say that because the aggregate can't itself experience, observe, and think (which is absolutely true), does not necessitate that there is unique individual content not derived from society in any way. There is unique individual content, of course - there are an infinite amount of possible combinations of societal aspects (and we're not even talking about physical experiences or interpretations of aspects yet); it's practically impossible to create two of the same person.

But they can never create content that is "not derived from society in any way".
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/22/2010 6:18:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/22/2010 12:50:08 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:

But they can never create content that is "not derived from society in any way".

Ideas not Derived from, not taken from, not adopted from.

I think we slightly misunderstood each other.

Before, I thought you meant all your ideas were already thought of in one form or another. I think now you just meant that you wouldn't have all too many ideas without engagement(/observation) in some kind of society, which I agree with, I think someone who grew up outside of society probably wouldn't have the same level of consciousness.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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1/22/2010 7:48:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/22/2010 6:18:38 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/22/2010 12:50:08 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:

But they can never create content that is "not derived from society in any way".

Ideas not Derived from, not taken from, not adopted from.

I think we slightly misunderstood each other.

Before, I thought you meant all your ideas were already thought of in one form or another. I think now you just meant that you wouldn't have all too many ideas without engagement(/observation) in some kind of society, which I agree with, I think someone who grew up outside of society probably wouldn't have the same level of consciousness.

Yes. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?