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*In Bible, which is worse: Gay or rich?

kbub
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3/19/2014 11:17:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have this under 'religion' too, but I think the thread applies to 'society' too.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong at any point, but with *research only* (preferably of high quality).

I tell you the truth! There are in fact very few verses in the bible dealing with same sex relations ("homosexuality" was not a word in the Hebrew or Greek (Paul's word as far as we can tell is unique (but correct me if I'm mistaken), so the identity of "homosexual" did not exist)).

Within these few verses, there are nothing that seems very serious at all. The most striking verse is in Leviticus calling same-sex relations an "abomination," but the same can be said for touching or eating a fish or crab or mollusk (Lev. 11:9"12)!

Paul gives some verses in the New Testament that point out that the laws of the Old Testament are still helpful, though they do not cut off one's ability to go to heaven. (These verses were part of a larger anti-circumcision campaign that is a theme of Paul's works.)

In all four gospels that are taken as canon, Jesus never says anything against homosexuality. Additionally, there is no verse in the Bible that says that homosexual persons will burn in Hell. However, the same can't be said for rich persons!

*"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (bold added, Luke 16:22-25)

(Note that in the above story, the rich man doesn't do anything except spend his legally-earned money.)

Jesus in Luke curses literally rich people in clear language over and over again. He even says that they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven:

"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:25, bold added)

"Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys." (Luke 22:33, bold added)

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." (Luke 6:24, bold added)

In Matthew:

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell everything you have. Give the money to those who are poor. You will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me." " (Matt 19:21)

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." (Matt 6:24)

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matt 6:19-21)

Not satisfied? James 5:5:
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

James 1:10-11:
"And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits."

Revalation 3:17:
"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."

Hebrews 13:5:
"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.""

1 Timothy 6:9:
"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction."

For those who want to take the Bible literally, please notice that there is no mention of "spiritual wealth" in these verses. These are very explicit in attacking actual wealth. Do not think that the secret is humility while keeping wealth--Jesus says, not be prepared to give your wealth away, but actually do it. Additionally, he blesses the poor as he curses the rich. Homosexuality is not as much of a sin (if it is a sin at all) according to the Bible as being rich.
Iamaconfederate
Posts: 2
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3/19/2014 11:40:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would say that being gay is worse because it says in Leviticus 20:13 that what gays have done is detestable and should be put to death, while rich people just need to give away their money, or use it for good purposes to get into heaven. I don't think once your gay you can ever get into heaven, but that's just my opinion.
kbub
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3/20/2014 12:06:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:40:56 PM, Iamaconfederate wrote:
I would say that being gay is worse because it says in Leviticus 20:13 that what gays have done is detestable and should be put to death, while rich people just need to give away their money, or use it for good purposes to get into heaven. I don't think once your gay you can ever get into heaven, but that's just my opinion.

What about the verses that showed explicitly that being rich sent you to hell?

And the verses in Leviticus that said that touching fish is also "detestable" or "an abomination?"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.
Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?
My work here is, finally, done.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/20/2014 11:05:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.

I can't help but giggle at that kind of interpretation. It strikes me as very desperate.

Literally right after: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There is: "And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion."

I don't think any reasonable person could interpret this "so make yourself unclean with it" as "just make sure to use a handy wipe as needed"

Nor "any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it" as "don't lie down, keep it doggy style."

Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?

You're asking "why not" to the bible? It targets lesbians too.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/20/2014 11:29:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 11:05:22 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.

I can't help but giggle at that kind of interpretation. It strikes me as very desperate.

Literally right after: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There is: "And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion."

I don't think any reasonable person could interpret this "so make yourself unclean with it" as "just make sure to use a handy wipe as needed"

Nor "any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it" as "don't lie down, keep it doggy style."
Those are separate sentences and verses, therefore the context can be different.

Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?

You're asking "why not" to the bible? It targets lesbians too.

The bible was written by man. Transcribed by man.
I suppose it could target lesbians, but I take it as the man shall not lie (as in anyone), then gender specific.
My work here is, finally, done.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/20/2014 11:52:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 11:29:18 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:05:22 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.

I can't help but giggle at that kind of interpretation. It strikes me as very desperate.

Literally right after: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There is: "And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion."

I don't think any reasonable person could interpret this "so make yourself unclean with it" as "just make sure to use a handy wipe as needed"

Nor "any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it" as "don't lie down, keep it doggy style."
Those are separate sentences and verses, therefore the context can be different.

Eh, what?

Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?

You're asking "why not" to the bible? It targets lesbians too.

The bible was written by man. Transcribed by man.
I suppose it could target lesbians, but I take it as the man shall not lie (as in anyone), then gender specific.

It says "you."
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/20/2014 12:13:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 11:52:39 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:29:18 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:05:22 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.

I can't help but giggle at that kind of interpretation. It strikes me as very desperate.

Literally right after: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There is: "And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion."

I don't think any reasonable person could interpret this "so make yourself unclean with it" as "just make sure to use a handy wipe as needed"

Nor "any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it" as "don't lie down, keep it doggy style."
Those are separate sentences and verses, therefore the context can be different.

Eh, what?

These are two separate verses.
Here's yours:
http://biblehub.com...

Notice the different language, and the lack of conditional clauses.

Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?

You're asking "why not" to the bible? It targets lesbians too.

The bible was written by man. Transcribed by man.
I suppose it could target lesbians, but I take it as the man shall not lie (as in anyone), then gender specific.

It says "you."

The quote I remember hearing is:
Man shall not lie with men as he lieth with women, for it is an abomination, and they shall be put to death, and their blood will be on their hands.

I heard it somewhere (I think Penn Jeillete), and different biblical texts have different text. However, I have always heard it "man shall not", never thou or you.

http://biblehub.com...
Not any say "you". Apparently, there are no rules about women.
My work here is, finally, done.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/20/2014 12:23:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:13:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:52:39 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:29:18 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/20/2014 11:05:22 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/20/2014 9:38:44 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Most of those quotes seemed to address greed, more than wealth, and if you are rich (as in you have wealth), then you are kinda greedy, aren't you?
Plus, if I remember right, the concept of tithing was introduced in the New Testament, and obtaining wealth was a new evil, compared to the days of old.

On the flip side, though, the only verse that I see about gayness is that Leviticus one, so I assume it is the best one. However, I never saw that as being against gays. To me, it seems to condemn bisexuality. Note the "lieth with man as he does with woman" part.
It implies that men lie with both, but there is a different, but not what the difference should be.

I can't help but giggle at that kind of interpretation. It strikes me as very desperate.

Literally right after: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There is: "And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion."

I don't think any reasonable person could interpret this "so make yourself unclean with it" as "just make sure to use a handy wipe as needed"

Nor "any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it" as "don't lie down, keep it doggy style."
Those are separate sentences and verses, therefore the context can be different.

Eh, what?

These are two separate verses.
Here's yours:
http://biblehub.com...

Notice the different language, and the lack of conditional clauses.

Thus, I see the verse as: befriend men and sleep with women, or befriend women and sleep with men. If it was simply to condemn gays, why not just say "men shall not lie with other men"?

You're asking "why not" to the bible? It targets lesbians too.

The bible was written by man. Transcribed by man.
I suppose it could target lesbians, but I take it as the man shall not lie (as in anyone), then gender specific.

It says "you."

The quote I remember hearing is:
Man shall not lie with men as he lieth with women, for it is an abomination, and they shall be put to death, and their blood will be on their hands.

I heard it somewhere (I think Penn Jeillete), and different biblical texts have different text. However, I have always heard it "man shall not", never thou or you.

http://biblehub.com...
Not any say "you". Apparently, there are no rules about women.

This is why I swore off arguing over what the bible says.

Check out the "English Standard Version"

http://www.biblegateway.com...
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/20/2014 12:52:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:23:35 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:

This is why I swore off arguing over what the bible says.
It is annoying, I'll give you that.

Check out the "English Standard Version"
Why do you choose that one?

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Oh, you mean this:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion"

Even in your preferred text, the conditional exists, and is fundamentally different.
You lose.
My work here is, finally, done.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/20/2014 2:32:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:52:14 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:23:35 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:

This is why I swore off arguing over what the bible says.
It is annoying, I'll give you that.

Check out the "English Standard Version"
Why do you choose that one?

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Oh, you mean this:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion"

Even in your preferred text, the conditional exists, and is fundamentally different.
You lose.

About it including lesbians? I guess so. I concede. Still it is absurd to presume that whatever bronze age bozo that thought this up considered the problem to only be bisexuality.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Juris
Posts: 109
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3/22/2014 8:17:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It is hard to tell. Number of stipulations in the Bible regarding gays and rich people does not answer your question. But logically speaking, being gay or being rich should not be a thing that a person should be ashamed of, simply because the Bible said so. In the first place, the Bible is not scientific nor historical. People should not depend their lives in the Bible. Bible is nothing!