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Work place sexism.

Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
against men!

Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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4/2/2014 2:06:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
against men!

Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.

It's interesting how some women both want workplace equality and chivalry, and how that translates into office policy/politics. I've never worked in the corporate world, but I can't imagine that's a pleasant situation to be in.

When I taught, I did have one girl try to charm me into giving her an extension on a paper. I smiled and shook my head, and I think it took her all of five seconds to realize she was, as they say, "barking up the wrong tree." But, that's only happened one time with me and I wouldn't report it, because it was minor and didn't bother me.

If I was told to assemble chairs in your situation, I'd still do it, but I wouldn't be happy about it.
Tsar of DDO
rross
Posts: 2,772
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4/2/2014 8:32:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.

It's not true - it's always bad in that position and it sounds horrible. I used to work in a sexist company. Afterwards, I kept thinking over what I could have done better, been more cooperative, or assertive, or smarter somehow...but now I think some situations set you up to lose and all you can do is avoid them if you can, or just be totally pragmatic and get out of it what you need. Some people can do that. Anyway, sorry to be negative and not have good advice. I hope you think of something.
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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4/2/2014 7:57:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
against men!

Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.

100% agreed. Don't get me wrong, men and women naturally have their roles, but it doesn't mean men only should do certain things without exceptions. Just like with women. Mainly this is about respect for opposite sexes and not treating the opposite sex as if they were beneath you. In other words, not a human being.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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5/24/2014 10:27:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
against men!

Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.

That's not sexism so much as it is stereotyping. It is hardly condescending to be told that you are better suited to fix a chair. Try not being able to walk at night for fear of being raped.

Not to say that sexism against men isn't a serious concern; it is. Men are often physically abused, but are afraid to report to due to stigma. Same with sexual harassment. If those things are going on, I'd recommend reporting it immediately. Being told to fix a chair by your boss because you are a strong man is incorrect, but hardly is hardly sexism in the workplace.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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5/24/2014 10:38:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
against men!

Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/25/2014 11:39:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.

I think his response speaks to human nature.
People love blaming others for their failures.
How many times do parents blame TV, media, schools, peers, etc. for their child's bad behavior?
My work here is, finally, done.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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5/26/2014 9:01:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 11:39:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.

I think his response speaks to human nature.
People love blaming others for their failures.
How many times do parents blame TV, media, schools, peers, etc. for their child's bad behavior?

It looks to me like s/he is saying it is not tough to be a female manager, and that they myth of sexism is female managers' own whininess. But I really hope you are right, Mage.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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5/27/2014 3:30:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 9:01:29 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 11:39:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.

I think his response speaks to human nature.
People love blaming others for their failures.
How many times do parents blame TV, media, schools, peers, etc. for their child's bad behavior?

It looks to me like s/he is saying it is not tough to be a female manager, and that they myth of sexism is female managers' own whininess. But I really hope you are right, Mage.

I am not saying that all females are poor managers. I am saying that poor female managers will blame their incompetence on sexism. I don't think it is any tougher to be a male manager than a female manager.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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5/27/2014 3:35:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 3:30:35 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 5/26/2014 9:01:29 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 11:39:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.

I think his response speaks to human nature.
People love blaming others for their failures.
How many times do parents blame TV, media, schools, peers, etc. for their child's bad behavior?

It looks to me like s/he is saying it is not tough to be a female manager, and that they myth of sexism is female managers' own whininess. But I really hope you are right, Mage.

I am not saying that all females are poor managers. I am saying that poor female managers will blame their incompetence on sexism. I don't think it is any tougher to be a male manager than a female manager.

It seems I didn't misunderstand you.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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5/27/2014 6:07:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/24/2014 10:27:56 PM, kbub wrote:

That's not sexism so much as it is stereotyping. It is hardly condescending to be told that you are better suited to fix a chair. Try not being able to walk at night for fear of being raped.

Not to say that sexism against men isn't a serious concern; it is. Men are often physically abused, but are afraid to report to due to stigma. Same with sexual harassment. If those things are going on, I'd recommend reporting it immediately. Being told to fix a chair by your boss because you are a strong man is incorrect, but hardly is hardly sexism in the workplace.

Um...actually, asking anyone to do anything *because* they are a man or woman is the very definition of sexism. Any time that a person is treated differently because of their gender, it's considered sexism (although a lot of women don't want to admit that this applies equally to men as it does to women). He wasn't chosen to put together chairs because he was the only one capable (since women are just as capable of putting together chairs and it does not require any level of strength that the average woman does not have), but he was chosen *because* he was a man. Someone should not be designated the sh*t jobs or all the hands-on work because of their gender, but duties should be distributed equally. It would be considered just as sexist if the company got together to do business meetings and one of the female executives (and only the female executive) was always designated to bring sandwiches to the meeting and then pour coffee and take dictation even though she was not hired to do secretarial work and no other executive of her job title is required to perform the same actions. Also, people (whether man or woman) who are incapable of performing the duties of their job without passing it to others should not be hired to do that job in the first place or at least should not be paid the same. Any worker who is always designated to perform extra duties should be compensated for their extra work, at the very least. Besides, from what I understood, the purpose of his original post was not that this was the only example of his being treated differently for being a man in an almost exclusively female working environment, but rather that this was one example of many.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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5/29/2014 9:47:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/2/2014 1:45:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
against men!

BOO-YAH! :D


Okay, time for my little rant. This will, surprisingly, have no numbers in it all (that's right, zero numbers).

For a long time, I've had to deal with sexism in the work place. And honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't necessarily want to see it go away, as much as I want it to be understood that it happens and likely at a significant level.

Let me first address just my most recent personal experience, namely just today.

First off, in my office department, I am the only man, apart from the manager. Our sales department is 100% female (which might seem weird since we are a weapons manufacturing company that doesn't do any direct sales to customers, but that probably just speaks to our dealers and distributors). Anyway, we got new office chairs today for everyone and I got the joy of putting them together. One coworker made a remark that I was taking to long so I asked if she would rather do it. Her response was "that's a man's job." Needless to say, the screws were left loose on her chair (I'll give it about 2 weeks).

Of course, had we been cleaning, like we do every week and I said "I'm not cleaning, that's a woman's job" I'd be fired without a warning, no questions asked.

I've had cases that were more on the inappropriate side, like a female supervisor that would go around giving men back massages and even sat on one's lap at work (while he was on the phone with a customer).

Of course, you can't report it. Being a woman who comes out against a sexist man is viewed as a hero and champion of women's rights. Being a man who comes out in the flip side, not so much.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/30/2014 9:23:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 3:35:20 PM, kbub wrote:

It seems I didn't misunderstand you.

Are you suggesting that it is categorically more difficult for a woman to manage than a man? (not in getting the promotion, but to do their job effectively)
If so, why? If men and women are equal, why are women more ineffective as managers? Admitting they are more ineffective, is it also acceptable to then not promote a woman over a man, simply because she will likely be less effective?
My work here is, finally, done.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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5/31/2014 2:01:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 3:35:20 PM, kbub wrote:
At 5/27/2014 3:30:35 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 5/26/2014 9:01:29 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 11:39:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 10:40:43 AM, kbub wrote:
At 5/25/2014 5:23:16 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Also, don't forget that it is extremely difficult to be a female manager. For one thing, as a woman it is hard to gain people's respect. For another, the same behaviors that for a man tend to be considered assertive or leader-like for a woman are seen as b***hy. I'll try to remember to look up some studies, but there are a lot.

I do not think it is tougher to be a female manager. However, I do think poor female managers will blame their incompetence on being a women instead of being a bad manager.

I'm not sure if that response helps or hurts your case. You are literally generalizing female managers to a single stereotyped response of weakness and a implying that they are indeed incompetent.

I think his response speaks to human nature.
People love blaming others for their failures.
How many times do parents blame TV, media, schools, peers, etc. for their child's bad behavior?

It looks to me like s/he is saying it is not tough to be a female manager, and that they myth of sexism is female managers' own whininess. But I really hope you are right, Mage.

I am not saying that all females are poor managers. I am saying that poor female managers will blame their incompetence on sexism. I don't think it is any tougher to be a male manager than a female manager.

It seems I didn't misunderstand you.

I don't get what issue you have with what I wrote. Why do you think it is tougher to b a female manager? It sounds to me like you are a bit sexist.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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5/31/2014 2:38:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If there is any reason that a person cannot perform their job duties as well as other applicants, then that person should not be hired for a job. There is absolutely no reason that a women should be incapable of managing as well as any man. If any worker (woman or man) cannot perform their duties, then someone else should get the job. It's as easy as that. People tend to come up with excuses for their own inability to perform their job (including, but not limited to "it's harder for me because I'm a woman"), but the truth is that you were hired and continue to be paid to perform the work that you were hired to do. It really doesn't matter what your excuses are. Women who enter the workplace should not have any right to special privileges or treatment simply because they are women. The whole idea behind the feminist movement and women entering the workplace is that they should be treated as equals. If I, as a man, were to get hired for a position and could not perform my duties, then I would be fired. Plain and simple. No company or business on Earth would give a flying rats @ss what my excuses were. Women should expect to be treated exactly the same. If a woman cannot handle the difficulties of managing, then they should simply find a different job. Also, if any person can perform a job better than someone else, no matter why it is that they can do it better, then they should be the one hired for that job. That definitely includes situations where a man can perform a job better than a woman AND vice versa.

The workplace is competitive and no one cares about the difficulties that you face and whether or not you can cry big fat alligator tears about how much harder you have it than anyone else. Unless you have some physical handicap or disability that prevents you from working (in which case you should be on disability rather than in the workplace at all), then you should be treated as an equal. Men do not get any special treatment (regardless of their genetic makeup and regardless of any special problems they may face) and neither should women. If I try and get a job in construction and some guy happens to have good genetics when it comes to building muscle and happens to be twice my size, then he probably SHOULD get the job over me if he can demonstrate that he can perform the job better than I can. It doesn't matter that my genetic makeup does not make me capable of competing against such a man. Men constantly must prove themselves, again and again, in the workplace and women should have to do the same. Any man would be considered to be a complete idiot if he knew that he was really not suited for a job and could not keep up with his competition and yet he kept trying to work in the field for which he was not suited or had extra struggles. If a man has some special struggle that makes his job harder for him, then the only response from any supervisor would be,"Well, you had better learn to keep up or you might as well leave now!" If any woman really wants to work in a certain field, then she had better work hard to make sure that she can do the job (and do the job better than others) or else she is just as stupid for not thinking her job choices through and then crying about it later. This is what the corporate world is like for EVERYONE, so deal with it!
kbub
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6/2/2014 6:18:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/31/2014 2:38:54 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
If there is any reason that a person cannot perform their job duties as well as other applicants, then that person should not be hired for a job. There is absolutely no reason that a women should be incapable of managing as well as any man. If any worker (woman or man) cannot perform their duties, then someone else should get the job. It's as easy as that. People tend to come up with excuses for their own inability to perform their job (including, but not limited to "it's harder for me because I'm a woman"), but the truth is that you were hired and continue to be paid to perform the work that you were hired to do. It really doesn't matter what your excuses are. Women who enter the workplace should not have any right to special privileges or treatment simply because they are women. The whole idea behind the feminist movement and women entering the workplace is that they should be treated as equals. If I, as a man, were to get hired for a position and could not perform my duties, then I would be fired. Plain and simple. No company or business on Earth would give a flying rats @ss what my excuses were. Women should expect to be treated exactly the same. If a woman cannot handle the difficulties of managing, then they should simply find a different job. Also, if any person can perform a job better than someone else, no matter why it is that they can do it better, then they should be the one hired for that job. That definitely includes situations where a man can perform a job better than a woman AND vice versa.

The workplace is competitive and no one cares about the difficulties that you face and whether or not you can cry big fat alligator tears about how much harder you have it than anyone else. Unless you have some physical handicap or disability that prevents you from working (in which case you should be on disability rather than in the workplace at all), then you should be treated as an equal. Men do not get any special treatment (regardless of their genetic makeup and regardless of any special problems they may face) and neither should women. If I try and get a job in construction and some guy happens to have good genetics when it comes to building muscle and happens to be twice my size, then he probably SHOULD get the job over me if he can demonstrate that he can perform the job better than I can. It doesn't matter that my genetic makeup does not make me capable of competing against such a man. Men constantly must prove themselves, again and again, in the workplace and women should have to do the same. Any man would be considered to be a complete idiot if he knew that he was really not suited for a job and could not keep up with his competition and yet he kept trying to work in the field for which he was not suited or had extra struggles. If a man has some special struggle that makes his job harder for him, then the only response from any supervisor would be,"Well, you had better learn to keep up or you might as well leave now!" If any woman really wants to work in a certain field, then she had better work hard to make sure that she can do the job (and do the job better than others) or else she is just as stupid for not thinking her job choices through and then crying about it later. This is what the corporate world is like for EVERYONE, so deal with it!

Some of what you say is true, some I it not so much. 1 Sexism can be a real problem for men and women in the workplace. 2 Feminism as you say does advocate equality. The unique struggles of female employers is not equality. I'm not advacating different treatment--only the end of unequal treatment. If men got pregnant, our laws would be very different; there would be far more benefits for pregancy leave. 3 I don't like how you characterize women as crying over their problems. You do this multiple times, and I think it's a bit sexist.

4 how dare you say people with disabilities shouldn't work. I'm speechless.
neptune1bond
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6/2/2014 1:05:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/2/2014 6:18:12 AM, kbub wrote:

Some of what you say is true, some I it not so much. 1 Sexism can be a real problem for men and women in the workplace. 2 Feminism as you say does advocate equality. The unique struggles of female employers is not equality. I'm not advacating different treatment--only the end of unequal treatment. If men got pregnant, our laws would be very different; there would be far more benefits for pregancy leave. 3 I don't like how you characterize women as crying over their problems. You do this multiple times, and I think it's a bit sexist.

As I've already demonstrated, everyone has special talents and abilities as well as struggles. To give women special treatment every time they have a struggle (no matter what the reason) is completely unequal because a man would never get such special treatment if he had a particular struggle that others don't have or someone else had a leg up over him (even if they faced the same struggle a women has). Say that I was an incredibly short guy in management who was also very scrawny. Short scrawny men have just as many problems being taken seriously as any woman (and studies have even shown how little respect really short men receive and how they are actually seen as less attractive when they are men). But if a scrawny short guy couldn't do his job as a manager, he'd be fired. Even if he cried and whined about how hard life is for him being short and scrawny, then no one would really give a sh*t. On the other hand, I've had plenty of female managers (and I do mean plenty) who could do the job as good as anyone (if not better). They never once complained about how hard it was for them and they were respected (and if they weren't respected then whoever disrespected them better watch their @ss just as much as if their manager had been a man). These women learned how to do their job and never once expected anyone to give them any unfair special delicate ultra-sensitive treatment just because they are women (I say unfair because no man would ever receive such special delicate ultra-sensitive treatment). It's the fact that they proved themselves capable again and again without excuses (as any man would be expected to) that they got promoted over their competitors. No employer wants a man in a job that he cannot do and has nothing but excuses so why in the hell should they want a women who cannot do the job and has nothing but excuses?

Also, I'm not just talking about women when I talk about people crying over their problems and expecting special treatment, I'm simply saying it in reference to women since that is the particular subject of which we are speaking. If any man couldn't do his job and started complaining about his "special" struggles and how much harder he has it, it would be crying and whining just as much as it would be for a woman. No one cares about the struggles men face in the work place, they simply can do the job or not and that's all that matters, no exceptions, no special treatment, no lowered expectations, and they can't push their work off on someone else. So, women shouldn't expect any different if they truly want equality. A man who can't do his job doesn't belong in that job, end of story, and women should be no different. And it IS crying and whining when a person can't perform the job and they try and come up with excuses for why they should receive special treatment, whatever those excuses. All people have their problems, not just women, and you either can do the job or you can't. That's how men are treated and so women should receive exactly the same. No one really gives a sh*t what any person's excuses are for why they can't do their job (and they shouldn't), whether they be a man OR a woman. If you can't deal with the way the corporate world works, then you either better learn how to deal or you better accept that you don't belong in the workplace. You cannot (and should not) expect employers to pay anyone for a job that they cannot perform or cannot perform without someone else taking on their responsibilities when someone else can perform the job without assistance. Hell, it's wrong just to imply that someone should be hired for a job when someone else is better qualified and can do the job much better. It is dishonest (actually stealing is what it really is) for women to expect to be paid for jobs they cannot do. All these things apply to men and any special struggles and problems they might face, so everyone will just have to excuse me if I don't give a flying rats @ss when the same rules apply to women.

4 how dare you say people with disabilities shouldn't work. I'm speechless.

How dare you twist my words to try and imply that I said something that I didn't. I'm the one who should be speechless. Let's take a look at my actual words, shall we?

"Unless you have some physical handicap or disability that prevents you from working (in which case you should be on disability rather than in the workplace at all), then you should be treated as an equal."

Why don't we underline the pertinent part here?

"Unless you have some physical handicap or disability that prevents you from working (in which case you should be on disability rather than in the workplace at all), then you should be treated as an equal."

Wait, let's repeat it one more time just to show how ridiculous your accusation was.

"Unless you have some physical handicap or disability that prevents you from working (in which case you should be on disability rather than in the workplace at all), then you should be treated as an equal."

Why don't we isolate the really important part.

"handicap or disability that prevents you from working"

What's the key line there? The key line is "prevents you from working". How exactly do you expect a person who cannot work to have a job? People who cannot work should not be forced to work and SHOULD receive disability. If anyone should be ashamed it should be anyone who thinks that those who simply cannot work should be forced into the workplace to try and do jobs that they are incapable of doing (whether handicapped, disabled, a man, or a WOMAN). It is also unreasonable to expect any employer to take on any employee who is incapable of doing the work, especially if a disability or handicap prevents them from working, or in other words, makes them completely incapable of working at all.