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Adventures in cognitive dissonance.

vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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4/6/2014 11:00:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/8/2014 1:16:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I cannot WAIT until test tube meat is a reality. Just sayin'.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/8/2014 11:26:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/8/2014 1:16:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I cannot WAIT until test tube meat is a reality. Just sayin'.

I'm apprehensive about something akin to the flavored vodka craze being replicated with manufactured meat.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/8/2014 11:29:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/8/2014 11:26:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/8/2014 1:16:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I cannot WAIT until test tube meat is a reality. Just sayin'.

I'm apprehensive about something akin to the flavored vodka craze being replicated with manufactured meat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

A new world is coming. Not sure if it is good or evil, but it is coming and it cannot be stopped.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/8/2014 11:33:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/8/2014 11:29:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/8/2014 11:26:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/8/2014 1:16:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I cannot WAIT until test tube meat is a reality. Just sayin'.

I'm apprehensive about something akin to the flavored vodka craze being replicated with manufactured meat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

A new world is coming. Not sure if it is good or evil, but it is coming and it cannot be stopped.

Sweet Jesus, what have we wrought.

Whenever someone is outraged by some of the vodka selections in the liquor store, I bring them to our crowning jewel, which sits, ensconced in soft white light, on the fancy vodka shelf: Bakon, the premium bacon-flavored vodka. http://www.bakonvodka.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/9/2014 12:00:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/8/2014 11:26:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/8/2014 1:16:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I cannot WAIT until test tube meat is a reality. Just sayin'.

I'm apprehensive about something akin to the flavored vodka craze being replicated with manufactured meat.

I'm sure it will be a terrible day.

Nonetheless, as a vegetarian who loves the taste of meat, no matter how awful it is...I'll probably buy the sh*t out of it.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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4/9/2014 12:41:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I mean, I think that's partially true. However, from my perspective, I'm not sure which is worse--ignorance of violence or callousness towards violence. I know that I am a minority in believing one shouldn't eat meat, but surely we can translate these to human issues. If one is aware of the social harms one is doing (say, supporting child labor or something) but does it anyway...I would say that would be perhaps worse in some ways than the ignorant person (even if it is partially willful ignorance). However, that'd be a tough call; I think we can agree though that they are both bad situations.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/9/2014 1:10:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/9/2014 12:41:49 AM, kbub wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I mean, I think that's partially true. However, from my perspective, I'm not sure which is worse--ignorance of violence or callousness towards violence. I know that I am a minority in believing one shouldn't eat meat, but surely we can translate these to human issues. If one is aware of the social harms one is doing (say, supporting child labor or something) but does it anyway...I would say that would be perhaps worse in some ways than the ignorant person (even if it is partially willful ignorance). However, that'd be a tough call; I think we can agree though that they are both bad situations.

I wouldn't agree that hunting an animal for meat is a bad situation. Animals kill and eat each other in nature all of the time. In this case, game land is preserved carefully for the purpose of giving animals a place to live natural lives up until the moment of their death. In fact, the hunting is part of the management of the land. In my area it keeps the deer population down, and you can tell that a forest is being hunted just by looking at it. A low deer population area has extensive undergrowth which gives shelter and food to a large number of bird, insect, and small mammal species. In high-population areas the undergrowth is completely gone, along with the entire ecosystem which it supported. In the absence of native plants, invasive species begin to infiltrate and carpet the forest floor, making it almost impossible for native species to rebound. Some of these plants are allelopathic, and can actually kill other plants by essentially poisoning the soil. Animals have no respect for the lives of other species, or awareness of the impact of their actions. I think there's something to be said for being against the unnecessary cruelty of the meat industry, but death is a deeply intrinsic part of nature. It drives just about everything, from seral succession to evolution itself. Understanding and accepting that, and then playing one's part responsibly, is an admirable thing in my book.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
fazz
Posts: 1,617
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4/9/2014 2:47:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/9/2014 1:10:46 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/9/2014 12:41:49 AM, kbub wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I mean, I think that's partially true. However, from my perspective, I'm not sure which is worse--ignorance of violence or callousness towards violence. I know that I am a minority in believing one shouldn't eat meat, but surely we can translate these to human issues. If one is aware of the social harms one is doing (say, supporting child labor or something) but does it anyway...I would say that would be perhaps worse in some ways than the ignorant person (even if it is partially willful ignorance). However, that'd be a tough call; I think we can agree though that they are both bad situations.

I wouldn't agree that hunting an animal for meat is a bad situation. Animals kill and eat each other in nature all of the time. In this case, game land is preserved carefully for the purpose of giving animals a place to live natural lives up until the moment of their death. In fact, the hunting is part of the management of the land. In my area it keeps the deer population down, and you can tell that a forest is being hunted just by looking at it. A low deer population area has extensive undergrowth which gives shelter and food to a large number of bird, insect, and small mammal species. In high-population areas the undergrowth is completely gone, along with the entire ecosystem which it supported. In the absence of native plants, invasive species begin to infiltrate and carpet the forest floor, making it almost impossible for native species to rebound. Some of these plants are allelopathic, and can actually kill other plants by essentially poisoning the soil. Animals have no respect for the lives of other species, or awareness of the impact of their actions. I think there's something to be said for being against the unnecessary cruelty of the meat industry, but death is a deeply intrinsic part of nature. It drives just about everything, from seral succession to evolution itself. Understanding and accepting that, and then playing one's part responsibly, is an admirable thing in my book.

Yes, but is hunting an activity or a sport? Is it utility or just violence?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/9/2014 6:14:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/9/2014 2:47:08 AM, fazz wrote:
At 4/9/2014 1:10:46 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/9/2014 12:41:49 AM, kbub wrote:
At 4/6/2014 7:28:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, I once had someone go on a rant on how people who hunt are so barbaric, because why would you go out and kill an animal when you can just buy meat in a supermarket?

I always think that the person who can face everything involved and come to terms with it, and actually has some sort of knowledge of what goes into the meat, has the moral high ground over someone who pretends that their meat is grown in a test tube. The hunter kills an animal which has lived a full and free life, while the clueless "Save Bambi!" type often supports a brutal and tortuous industry.

I mean, I think that's partially true. However, from my perspective, I'm not sure which is worse--ignorance of violence or callousness towards violence. I know that I am a minority in believing one shouldn't eat meat, but surely we can translate these to human issues. If one is aware of the social harms one is doing (say, supporting child labor or something) but does it anyway...I would say that would be perhaps worse in some ways than the ignorant person (even if it is partially willful ignorance). However, that'd be a tough call; I think we can agree though that they are both bad situations.

I wouldn't agree that hunting an animal for meat is a bad situation. Animals kill and eat each other in nature all of the time. In this case, game land is preserved carefully for the purpose of giving animals a place to live natural lives up until the moment of their death. In fact, the hunting is part of the management of the land. In my area it keeps the deer population down, and you can tell that a forest is being hunted just by looking at it. A low deer population area has extensive undergrowth which gives shelter and food to a large number of bird, insect, and small mammal species. In high-population areas the undergrowth is completely gone, along with the entire ecosystem which it supported. In the absence of native plants, invasive species begin to infiltrate and carpet the forest floor, making it almost impossible for native species to rebound. Some of these plants are allelopathic, and can actually kill other plants by essentially poisoning the soil. Animals have no respect for the lives of other species, or awareness of the impact of their actions. I think there's something to be said for being against the unnecessary cruelty of the meat industry, but death is a deeply intrinsic part of nature. It drives just about everything, from seral succession to evolution itself. Understanding and accepting that, and then playing one's part responsibly, is an admirable thing in my book.

Yes, but is hunting an activity or a sport? Is it utility or just violence?

It's both.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/11/2014 9:24:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Most hunters operate with a "clean kill" philosophy. Either to protect the trophy, or preserve the meat, and so they don't have to watch suffering. You can find sickos who like running over cats with lawnmowers, but that's not common, and when you do, you should probably watch your back.

Coyotes, dragonfly nymphs, fish, swine, frogs, and cats, on the other hand, don't always care if their quarry is dead before consumption. As long as it doesn't get away.

Aside from eating a live octopus at a Japanese restaurant, our carnivorous habits are pretty merciful, comparatively.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.