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Woman and sex in america

bsh1
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5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Mhykiel
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5/15/2014 2:20:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer" (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

I think that says get your freak on and only stop when she says it's time to pray. :P lol
Mikal
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5/15/2014 4:15:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

vetoed
Ore_Ele
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5/15/2014 8:25:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 2:20:46 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer" (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

I think that says get your freak on and only stop when she says it's time to pray. :P lol

If she starts saying "OH GOD! OH GOD!" you better not stop, just saying.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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5/15/2014 8:34:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

I think that "catch-22" is not just towards men, nor just about sex. We live in a society that is geared towards "me first," and "what I deserve." I can't go a 10 minute drive to work without hearing a radio commercial that says I deserve a new car or I deserve this or that. And this applies just as much to women as it does men. And it isn't just american culture.

The french person in the interview shows how much it is in France as well. As they described how they don't understand a blowjob because they get no pleasure in their mouth. Shockingly, some of us are not just focused on our own pleasures, but like to please others with no pleasure to ourselves.

http://psychcentral.com...

See points 6 and 9 specifically (it is only ironic that they make 69) regarding oral sex. It is actually pretty well reciprocated by both genders. And I can honestly say that I give it far more often than I receive it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Mhykiel
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5/15/2014 8:54:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:25:37 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 2:20:46 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer" (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

I think that says get your freak on and only stop when she says it's time to pray. :P lol

If she starts saying "OH GOD! OH GOD!" you better not stop, just saying.

lol :P
bsh1
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5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:34:14 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

I think that "catch-22" is not just towards men, nor just about sex. We live in a society that is geared towards "me first," and "what I deserve." I can't go a 10 minute drive to work without hearing a radio commercial that says I deserve a new car or I deserve this or that. And this applies just as much to women as it does men. And it isn't just american culture.

This is correct. But at the same time, amidst this culture of me first, there is also an increasing trend towards the objectification of women. Personally, I don't understand it. I much prefer to objectify men, but w/e. I do believe that society views women as sexual objects, designed to please rather than to be pleased, and it certain holds this view more for women than men.

The french person in the interview shows how much it is in France as well. As they described how they don't understand a blowjob because they get no pleasure in their mouth. Shockingly, some of us are not just focused on our own pleasures, but like to please others with no pleasure to ourselves.

I think she was referring more to reciprocal relationships. Why would a woman give you a blowjob, if you refused to give her one? It seems unequal.

http://psychcentral.com...

See points 6 and 9 specifically (it is only ironic that they make 69) regarding oral sex. It is actually pretty well reciprocated by both genders. And I can honestly say that I give it far more often than I receive it.

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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5/15/2014 4:00:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

It tells you very little though. The survey said that the average male orgasms during intercourse. And the average male takes 6 min to reach orgasm.

From the above, it seems relatively clear that the average blowjob is a prelude to sex and lasts for a very short duration.

In contrast, the survey says that most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm. The average woman takes 20 to 30 min to reach orgasm. Given these stats, you can see why straight men have the attitude that "going down" on a woman is a more intimate affair than her giving him a blowjob.

While it may be true that in a one-night stand, both partners probably deserve to "get off," this generally isn't going to happen. One night stands are rarely conducive to the female orgasm as most women require the relaxation and emotional connection that only a relationship bring in order to reach fruition.

Also, vaginal sex is safer than oral sex, STD-wise. With sex, you can use a condom. There is no way to limit exposure to STD's during oral sex, except to limit its duration.

Personally, I think it's completely rational for straight guys to hold off on oral sex until they are in a relationship.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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5/15/2014 4:14:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:00:32 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

It tells you very little though. The survey said that the average male orgasms during intercourse. And the average male takes 6 min to reach orgasm.

From the above, it seems relatively clear that the average blowjob is a prelude to sex and lasts for a very short duration.

In contrast, the survey says that most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm. The average woman takes 20 to 30 min to reach orgasm. Given these stats, you can see why straight men have the attitude that "going down" on a woman is a more intimate affair than her giving him a blowjob.

What I seem to gather from this is that the man expects to reach orgasm, but then allowing the woman to not reach orgasm by failing to give oral sex. Consider, that if "most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm" and the man refuses, the sex seems rather one-sided.

While it may be true that in a one-night stand, both partners probably deserve to "get off," this generally isn't going to happen. One night stands are rarely conducive to the female orgasm as most women require the relaxation and emotional connection that only a relationship bring in order to reach fruition.

I think that the information in the link was referring to more than just one-night stands.

Also, vaginal sex is safer than oral sex, STD-wise. With sex, you can use a condom. There is no way to limit exposure to STD's during oral sex, except to limit its duration.

"However, performing oral sex carries no risk of pregnancy, and performing oral sex on a female is safer than having vaginal sex. Additionally, there has, in the past, been some negative stigma surrounding the idea of a male performing oral sex on a female, mostly because it seemed 'unmanly'."

And:

"To avoid getting an STD from performing oral sex on a female, it is best to do so with a barrier or some type between the mouth and the genitals, and it is most safely done with a flat piece of latex film sometimes called a dental dam. That flat piece of latex will prevent any STD from passing between the two partners." Admittedly though, this sounds utterly unappealing...

Link: http://www.teensadvisor.com...

Personally, I think it's completely rational for straight guys to hold off on oral sex until they are in a relationship.

Maybe. But if they do, is it fair to expect that the woman give them oral sex when they refuse to reciprocate.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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5/15/2014 4:40:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:14:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:

What I seem to gather from this is that the man expects to reach orgasm, but then allowing the woman to not reach orgasm by failing to give oral sex. Consider, that if "most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm" and the man refuses, the sex seems rather one-sided.

Kind of, but women can still gain pleasure without reaching orgasm. I've had partners who just didn't want to put in the time to achieve their own orgasm sometimes. I imagine that with two guys, it is more simple to think of it as an egalitarian, "I did you, so you do me." It's a little more complicated with women -- different plumbing and psychologies.

Especially with one night stands. A lot of women hate the pressure that they feel to orgasm, even if that pressure is completely self-imposed. Some women will *turn down* oral sex until far into a relationship because it makes them too uncomfortable.


While it may be true that in a one-night stand, both partners probably deserve to "get off," this generally isn't going to happen. One night stands are rarely conducive to the female orgasm as most women require the relaxation and emotional connection that only a relationship bring in order to reach fruition.

I think that the information in the link was referring to more than just one-night stands.

True, but a lot of the sexual encounters in the early 20's (college age) are one night stands. I think the older population were more likely to be in relationships.


Also, vaginal sex is safer than oral sex, STD-wise. With sex, you can use a condom. There is no way to limit exposure to STD's during oral sex, except to limit its duration.

"However, performing oral sex carries no risk of pregnancy, and performing oral sex on a female is safer than having vaginal sex. Additionally, there has, in the past, been some negative stigma surrounding the idea of a male performing oral sex on a female, mostly because it seemed 'unmanly'."

Performing unprotected vaginal sex is less safe than performing unprotected oral sex on a female. I think comparing protected vaginal sex to unprotected oral sex would lead to a completely different result.


And:

"To avoid getting an STD from performing oral sex on a female, it is best to do so with a barrier or some type between the mouth and the genitals, and it is most safely done with a flat piece of latex film sometimes called a dental dam. That flat piece of latex will prevent any STD from passing between the two partners." Admittedly though, this sounds utterly unappealing...

Seriously, no one is going to lick latex for 20 minutes. It's also not going to be as pleasurable for the female.

The stat that men found sex with condoms just as pleasurable was BS. It said they were just as likely to reach orgasm; that doesn't mean it feels as good.

Honestly, I don't see the point of oral sex with a dental dam. Without feeling the texture or the wetness of the tongue, it would just feel the same as a strangely shaped finger. It has very few advantages at that point to manual stimulation, which itself offers many advantages [because the fingers can be used to stimulate the G spot].

^That is another thing. There may be serious differentials in how often/long males vs. females use their hands to get each other off, which never seems to be captured in these surveys. If the man prefers a blowjob and the woman prefers a G spot massage from fingers, that's not really an "unegalitarian" arrangement.

Honestly, fingers are a much more powerful tool as far as getting a woman off than getting a man off. So it's strange that surveys claiming to prove unequalness ignore this metric.

Personally, I think it's completely rational for straight guys to hold off on oral sex until they are in a relationship.

Maybe. But if they do, is it fair to expect that the woman give them oral sex when they refuse to reciprocate.

I don't expect a woman to give me oral sex if I'm not willing to go down on her. But hey, I don't really like blowjobs as much as intercourse, so I don't really see the point ever.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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5/15/2014 4:45:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
also toys

i'm betting these are more likely to be used to get women off than to get men off.

it's only unequal if something else isn't used instead.

And I would think that for most men, vaginal sex, anal sex, and blowjobs would be in their top 3 most pleasurable, whereas for most women, oral sex, manual manipulation, and toys would be the top 3 [in terms of what is most likely to make them orgasm].

So again, I question why surveys ignore the latter two.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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5/15/2014 4:55:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:14:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:


honestly part of what i see in the statistics of older women being more likely to receive oral sex is that they are more sure of their sexualities. They are more likely to *know* what they need in order to get off and are more comfortable with their sexualities in terms of *asking* for it.

It's not as simple as "evil men." A lot of women in their late teens and early 20's just have no idea how to get themselves off or how to ask for their partners to do it.

To me, focusing on how women change over time makes more sense than the hypothesis that men get less selfish with age. I don't see why that would be true. In my experience, unselfish men were always that way and selfish men rarely change.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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5/15/2014 5:21:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:40:55 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 4:14:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:

What I seem to gather from this is that the man expects to reach orgasm, but then allowing the woman to not reach orgasm by failing to give oral sex. Consider, that if "most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm" and the man refuses, the sex seems rather one-sided.

Kind of, but women can still gain pleasure without reaching orgasm. I've had partners who just didn't want to put in the time to achieve their own orgasm sometimes. I imagine that with two guys, it is more simple to think of it as an egalitarian, "I did you, so you do me." It's a little more complicated with women -- different plumbing and psychologies.

Yeah. I guess my perspective may have something to do with my outlook. For me, it really is an egalitarian trade off.

But, to the extent that a woman does want to reach orgasm, doesn't the guy have an obligation to meet her needs? If a women doesn't "want to put it the time," that's fine. But what if she does? Is the guy justified in using her to attain orgasm, but not allowing her to use him to do the same?

Especially with one night stands. A lot of women hate the pressure that they feel to orgasm, even if that pressure is completely self-imposed. Some women will *turn down* oral sex until far into a relationship because it makes them too uncomfortable.

Again...I really have no clue. This is probably the first time I have ever given this issue any thought.

I think that the information in the link was referring to more than just one-night stands.

True, but a lot of the sexual encounters in the early 20's (college age) are one night stands. I think the older population were more likely to be in relationships.

Granted, though I am still disinclined to believe longer term relationships are totally egalitarian in this sense.

"However, performing oral sex carries no risk of pregnancy, and performing oral sex on a female is safer than having vaginal sex. Additionally, there has, in the past, been some negative stigma surrounding the idea of a male performing oral sex on a female, mostly because it seemed 'unmanly'."

Performing unprotected vaginal sex is less safe than performing unprotected oral sex on a female. I think comparing protected vaginal sex to unprotected oral sex would lead to a completely different result.

But, as the original link notes, surprisingly few people use protection. This seems to make the comparison that my link draws more valid.

And:

"To avoid getting an STD from performing oral sex on a female, it is best to do so with a barrier or some type between the mouth and the genitals, and it is most safely done with a flat piece of latex film sometimes called a dental dam. That flat piece of latex will prevent any STD from passing between the two partners." Admittedly though, this sounds utterly unappealing...

Seriously, no one is going to lick latex for 20 minutes. It's also not going to be as pleasurable for the female.

I agree. No contest here. That just seems...weird.

^That is another thing. There may be serious differentials in how often/long males vs. females use their hands to get each other off, which never seems to be captured in these surveys. If the man prefers a blowjob and the woman prefers a G spot massage from fingers, that's not really an "unegalitarian" arrangement.

I think, in that sort of arrangement, there would be relative equality. But, in cases where that tradeoff isn't made, we're back to the original issue.

Honestly, fingers are a much more powerful tool as far as getting a woman off than getting a man off.

I wouldn't know.

Maybe. But if they do, is it fair to expect that the woman give them oral sex when they refuse to reciprocate.

I don't expect a woman to give me oral sex if I'm not willing to go down on her. But hey, I don't really like blowjobs as much as intercourse, so I don't really see the point ever.

I think that's the bottom line. As long as both parties realize that to ask they must be willing to give I think the arrangement is fine.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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5/15/2014 5:24:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:45:47 PM, bluesteel wrote:
also toys

i'm betting these are more likely to be used to get women off than to get men off.

Maybe in straight relationships...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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5/15/2014 5:26:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:55:48 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 4:14:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:


honestly part of what i see in the statistics of older women being more likely to receive oral sex is that they are more sure of their sexualities. They are more likely to *know* what they need in order to get off and are more comfortable with their sexualities in terms of *asking* for it.

That is certainly possible.

It's not as simple as "evil men." A lot of women in their late teens and early 20's just have no idea how to get themselves off or how to ask for their partners to do it.

True, but I would be interested to see how many younger men would be willing to give orals if asked by their partners. Now that would be a statistic I would find interesting.

To me, focusing on how women change over time makes more sense than the hypothesis that men get less selfish with age. I don't see why that would be true. In my experience, unselfish men were always that way and selfish men rarely change.

That's never what I argued.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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5/15/2014 7:47:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 5:26:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:

To me, focusing on how women change over time makes more sense than the hypothesis that men get less selfish with age. I don't see why that would be true. In my experience, unselfish men were always that way and selfish men rarely change.

That's never what I argued.

Yeah I know. I was just trying to explain what I think we both agree is an interesting statistic. The person who wrote the article Ore_Ele linked would obviously argue that men are just selfish, but they mature with age. I would argue that women -- over time -- learn what they want and their men are (mostly) happy to oblige.

It seems we're generally in agreement.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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5/15/2014 7:49:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 7:47:02 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 5:26:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:

It seems we're generally in agreement.

It seems so.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Ore_Ele
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5/16/2014 1:21:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:34:14 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

I think that "catch-22" is not just towards men, nor just about sex. We live in a society that is geared towards "me first," and "what I deserve." I can't go a 10 minute drive to work without hearing a radio commercial that says I deserve a new car or I deserve this or that. And this applies just as much to women as it does men. And it isn't just american culture.

This is correct. But at the same time, amidst this culture of me first, there is also an increasing trend towards the objectification of women. Personally, I don't understand it. I much prefer to objectify men, but w/e. I do believe that society views women as sexual objects, designed to please rather than to be pleased, and it certain holds this view more for women than men.

Can you show that the objectification of woman has increased? Since the 50's I'd say the opposite is true. Their objectification has gone down, while that of men has gone up.

http://images.thehollywoodgossip.com...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com... (despite being a movie geared towards guys, these scenes were not).


The french person in the interview shows how much it is in France as well. As they described how they don't understand a blowjob because they get no pleasure in their mouth. Shockingly, some of us are not just focused on our own pleasures, but like to please others with no pleasure to ourselves.

I think she was referring more to reciprocal relationships. Why would a woman give you a blowjob, if you refused to give her one? It seems unequal.

I'll give my wife a foot rub without any expectation, nor requirement of her to give me one.


http://psychcentral.com...

See points 6 and 9 specifically (it is only ironic that they make 69) regarding oral sex. It is actually pretty well reciprocated by both genders. And I can honestly say that I give it far more often than I receive it.

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

The only one that has a significant difference is a 5 year window, and there is another window that swings the other way when older, but for the vast majority, it is fairly equal. It can also be noted that while not as many men are giving oral to women in the 20-24 range as women to men, more women are receiving oral from men (so there are a few guys making the rounds on a lot of women, with a lot women make the rounds to just a few men).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bsh1
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5/16/2014 1:31:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 1:21:42 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:34:14 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

I think that "catch-22" is not just towards men, nor just about sex. We live in a society that is geared towards "me first," and "what I deserve." I can't go a 10 minute drive to work without hearing a radio commercial that says I deserve a new car or I deserve this or that. And this applies just as much to women as it does men. And it isn't just american culture.

This is correct. But at the same time, amidst this culture of me first, there is also an increasing trend towards the objectification of women. Personally, I don't understand it. I much prefer to objectify men, but w/e. I do believe that society views women as sexual objects, designed to please rather than to be pleased, and it certain holds this view more for women than men.

Can you show that the objectification of woman has increased? Since the 50's I'd say the opposite is true. Their objectification has gone down, while that of men has gone up.

http://images.thehollywoodgossip.com...

Goddamn...that is just...wow...too much perfection.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com... (despite being a movie geared towards guys, these scenes were not).

Will Smith is not attractive.

I can agree that there are cases where men are objectified. One good example is Jennifer Lopez's "I Luh Ya Papi" video.

Yet, I still strongly suspect the woman are objectified far more than men in modern society. Let me do some more research and come back and comment more in-depth.

The french person in the interview shows how much it is in France as well. As they described how they don't understand a blowjob because they get no pleasure in their mouth. Shockingly, some of us are not just focused on our own pleasures, but like to please others with no pleasure to ourselves.

I think she was referring more to reciprocal relationships. Why would a woman give you a blowjob, if you refused to give her one? It seems unequal.

I'll give my wife a foot rub without any expectation, nor requirement of her to give me one.

That's actually very sweet. Yet, if you asked for one, and she refused, I would say that there's an issue there. If you give altruistically, that's one thing. But she should be willing to reciprocate.

http://psychcentral.com...

See points 6 and 9 specifically (it is only ironic that they make 69) regarding oral sex. It is actually pretty well reciprocated by both genders. And I can honestly say that I give it far more often than I receive it.

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

The only one that has a significant difference is a 5 year window, and there is another window that swings the other way when older, but for the vast majority, it is fairly equal. It can also be noted that while not as many men are giving oral to women in the 20-24 range as women to men, more women are receiving oral from men (so there are a few guys making the rounds on a lot of women, with a lot women make the rounds to just a few men).

I feel like there is a debate topic to be had in here somewhere.
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Ore_Ele
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5/16/2014 1:31:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 7:47:02 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 5:26:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:

To me, focusing on how women change over time makes more sense than the hypothesis that men get less selfish with age. I don't see why that would be true. In my experience, unselfish men were always that way and selfish men rarely change.

That's never what I argued.

Yeah I know. I was just trying to explain what I think we both agree is an interesting statistic. The person who wrote the article Ore_Ele linked would obviously argue that men are just selfish, but they mature with age. I would argue that women -- over time -- learn what they want and their men are (mostly) happy to oblige.

It seems we're generally in agreement.

I'd argue that there is a combination of both. Men are incredibly immature in their teens and twenty, and while not all of them mature as they age, many do (thus effecting the overall averages). Despite what we like to think, we are not grown up at 18 or 21. We do not stop growing up and maturing until usually in our 40's (for men, and that is just an average, each person will be different).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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5/16/2014 1:45:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 1:31:33 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 1:21:42 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:34:14 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:22:52 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:14:29 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.alternet.org...

This is a thread for a discussion that was brought up in another thread.

Interesting. As a relatively impartial observer, I can agree that there is a catch-22 placed on women, and that men should give about as much as they receive. Your GF isn't your sex slave, she's not there just to please you. You have an equal obligation to her.

I think that "catch-22" is not just towards men, nor just about sex. We live in a society that is geared towards "me first," and "what I deserve." I can't go a 10 minute drive to work without hearing a radio commercial that says I deserve a new car or I deserve this or that. And this applies just as much to women as it does men. And it isn't just american culture.

This is correct. But at the same time, amidst this culture of me first, there is also an increasing trend towards the objectification of women. Personally, I don't understand it. I much prefer to objectify men, but w/e. I do believe that society views women as sexual objects, designed to please rather than to be pleased, and it certain holds this view more for women than men.

Can you show that the objectification of woman has increased? Since the 50's I'd say the opposite is true. Their objectification has gone down, while that of men has gone up.

http://images.thehollywoodgossip.com...

Goddamn...that is just...wow...too much perfection.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com... (despite being a movie geared towards guys, these scenes were not).

Will Smith is not attractive.

I can agree that there are cases where men are objectified. One good example is Jennifer Lopez's "I Luh Ya Papi" video.

Yet, I still strongly suspect the woman are objectified far more than men in modern society. Let me do some more research and come back and comment more in-depth.

What you'll find is that there has been a major shift from the objectification of women towards women engaging in self-objectification. For most of them, is it not because they are brainwashed into thinking that they have to do that to get a man, but rather as a feminist view that it gives them power over men.

The french person in the interview shows how much it is in France as well. As they described how they don't understand a blowjob because they get no pleasure in their mouth. Shockingly, some of us are not just focused on our own pleasures, but like to please others with no pleasure to ourselves.

I think she was referring more to reciprocal relationships. Why would a woman give you a blowjob, if you refused to give her one? It seems unequal.

I'll give my wife a foot rub without any expectation, nor requirement of her to give me one.

That's actually very sweet. Yet, if you asked for one, and she refused, I would say that there's an issue there. If you give altruistically, that's one thing. But she should be willing to reciprocate.

I don't know if she is or isn't. The very act of asking would be completely undermining me doing it with no strings attached. However, she does things for me with no strings attached, and we simply don't keep score. Scorecards breed competition and competition is often not too good for a healthy relationship (not making an absolute claim here).


http://psychcentral.com...

See points 6 and 9 specifically (it is only ironic that they make 69) regarding oral sex. It is actually pretty well reciprocated by both genders. And I can honestly say that I give it far more often than I receive it.

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

The only one that has a significant difference is a 5 year window, and there is another window that swings the other way when older, but for the vast majority, it is fairly equal. It can also be noted that while not as many men are giving oral to women in the 20-24 range as women to men, more women are receiving oral from men (so there are a few guys making the rounds on a lot of women, with a lot women make the rounds to just a few men).

I feel like there is a debate topic to be had in here somewhere.
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Mhykiel
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5/17/2014 3:21:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 4:00:32 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

It tells you very little though. The survey said that the average male orgasms during intercourse. And the average male takes 6 min to reach orgasm.

From the above, it seems relatively clear that the average blowjob is a prelude to sex and lasts for a very short duration.

In contrast, the survey says that most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm. The average woman takes 20 to 30 min to reach orgasm. Given these stats, you can see why straight men have the attitude that "going down" on a woman is a more intimate affair than her giving him a blowjob.

While it may be true that in a one-night stand, both partners probably deserve to "get off," this generally isn't going to happen. One night stands are rarely conducive to the female orgasm as most women require the relaxation and emotional connection that only a relationship bring in order to reach fruition.

Also, vaginal sex is safer than oral sex, STD-wise. With sex, you can use a condom. There is no way to limit exposure to STD's during oral sex, except to limit its duration.


Duration is not an effective deterrent to transmission. Only a barrier can do that. A piece of saran wrap or latex sheet is effective. A piece of satin can be used under the saran wrap. But only a barrier will prevent transmission and this is not 100%.

Personally, I think it's completely rational for straight guys to hold off on oral sex until they are in a relationship.
Ore_Ele
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5/17/2014 3:23:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 3:21:12 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 4:00:32 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 1:04:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I think this statistic is still very relevant to my point: "with only 55 percent of men saying they"ve given it in the past year, compared to 74 percent of women." Admittedly though, I was surprised by how older relationships become more egalitarian.

It tells you very little though. The survey said that the average male orgasms during intercourse. And the average male takes 6 min to reach orgasm.

From the above, it seems relatively clear that the average blowjob is a prelude to sex and lasts for a very short duration.

In contrast, the survey says that most women require oral stimulation to reach orgasm. The average woman takes 20 to 30 min to reach orgasm. Given these stats, you can see why straight men have the attitude that "going down" on a woman is a more intimate affair than her giving him a blowjob.

While it may be true that in a one-night stand, both partners probably deserve to "get off," this generally isn't going to happen. One night stands are rarely conducive to the female orgasm as most women require the relaxation and emotional connection that only a relationship bring in order to reach fruition.

Also, vaginal sex is safer than oral sex, STD-wise. With sex, you can use a condom. There is no way to limit exposure to STD's during oral sex, except to limit its duration.


Duration is not an effective deterrent to transmission. Only a barrier can do that. A piece of saran wrap or latex sheet is effective. A piece of satin can be used under the saran wrap. But only a barrier will prevent transmission and this is not 100%.

Personally, I think it's completely rational for straight guys to hold off on oral sex until they are in a relationship.

Depends on "effective" a shorter exposure window will yield a lower chance of contracting an STD, but not even close to using protection. Just like the pull out method is better than nothing, but sucks balls (lol) compared to a condom.
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YYW
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5/17/2014 3:46:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is the kind of article that depresses me; we've very clearly described a problem that any self-aware man or woman recognizes, but we've got no solution to it. But, to get to the heart of what's going on we've got to know how we got here in the first place. American prudishness about sex is nothing more than an indication of commonly held (and socioculturally reinforced) values/norms that govern how we (and I use that term generally, to refer to Western dudes) think women ought to be.

From the get-go, I reject the idea that the way women are is because of the way that American men view sex. That attitude in and of itself reduces women to being nothing more than the objects of male sexual desire, and is in and of itself principally consistent with the state of affairs that line of criticism is intended to repudiate. Women have agency, and they can define for themselves how they ought to be. The norms/standards that we (again, American dudes) hold for how women ought to look are not the product only of a little less than half the American population. But now that that mess is out of the way...

The double standard that men and women place on women is bullsh!t: the idea that a guy is a hero if he sleeps with a lot of girls but a girl is a whore if she sleeps with a lot of guys is asinine. Men and women are, nonetheless, equally culpable in reinforcing it, though. The way out of that problem requires a genuine and totalizing movement in common values: either we have to accept that men and women are equal and sex is something that we agree both ought to enjoy equally, or we pretend that we value gender egalitarianism while encouraging men to sleep around while insisting that women keep their legs closed. I have a theory that the reason men want women to not sleep around is because the status that comes from being a philanderer is only status because sex is a scarce resource... but that's another conversation for another day.

The point that someone (I can't remember who, but someone above) made earlier about how men and women change over time is, though, significant. A dude in his 20s is going to have a wildly different attitude, on average, about sex than a dude in his 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s -and really, it's on that axis (time) that actual gender equality tends to emerge as our conventions that govern expectations of sexual behavior tend to normalize among men and women. But, that's always been the case. What's amazing to me is that gender theorists talk about the male/female issue as something "new" or "unique" to our time, especially as something that's the "product" of lassies faire attitudes about sex, or the 1960s, or whatever.

Teenage boys have always been horn dogs, teenage girls have always been given conflicting signals about how they ought to conceive of how they "ought" to be. Oh, and boys have too. Young male adults have always wanted to sleep around, and the list goes on. Every generation addresses these exact same kinds of problems, albeit in different milieus and with different specifics -but the problems themselves are fundamentally congruent. Society has oscillated in how prudish it is, and it's true that we're still too Victorian for my taste, but if we want to change these problems, we've got to do more than describe them. We've got to shift the ground on which they rest. That requires a tectonic value shakeup... but that's just not going to happen.
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Iredia
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5/17/2014 5:14:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 3:46:49 AM, YYW wrote:
This is the kind of article that depresses me; we've very clearly described a problem that any self-aware man or woman recognizes, but we've got no solution to it. But, to get to the heart of what's going on we've got to know . . . That requires a tectonic value shakeup... but that's just not going to happen.

Nice responsw. Unfortunately in overtly sex-obsessed times such as this it will take a miracle for the shakeup you speak of to happen. I would also add that actions ALWAYS give rise to reactions. I think the current problems are just the tip of the iceberg.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Such
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5/17/2014 1:56:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This thread doesn't seem to have much to do with the linked article. That article is in reference to another article, in which a woman describes the details of French dating, which doesn't seem very different from American dating as a young adult. At the bottom of that article, another French woman comments:

"No wonder why everyone hates the French when people like this woman are in the spotlights. I am french and I travelled a bit so I can compare the dating habits too. But her description of french women is beyond ridiculous. This woman clearly lives in a Sex & the city fantasy. NO it's not okay for everyone to cheat, YES the French sometimes go on a date and YES there are happy couples who do more than watch TV together.

Eventually this woman will realise that she is not 20 anymore and that it's okay to have a normal relationship, and then maybe she'll stop putting everyone in the same boat to justify her lifestyle. "


That said, I don't see how American society is puritanical toward female sexual pleasure.

The Slut-Playboy Dichotomy

Apparently, there is this general belief that a woman who "sleeps around" is considered a slut, whereas a man who "sleeps around" is considered a playboy.

Well, I don't think that's entirely the case, but to the extent that it is, I think it's due to the male-female dynamic in a relationship. You see, women are generally who choose who will have sex with them. It's men who put themselves out there "trying to get laid," while women don't really have to try, generally speaking. The way it works is, a woman will doll herself up to attract men, men will be drawn to those they find attractive, and of those who she attracts, a woman will choose a man to court her to sleep with her or whatever. If a woman is indiscriminate about her selections, she's considered a "slut," because she doesn't value herself enough to be more selective with the men she chooses to sleep with. Men, on the other hand, are considered "playboys," because they don't really make the choice -- they're often chosen. So, this gives the perception that there's something admirable or enviable about them. Unless they're in a committed relationship (which will give them a bad name for sleeping around), this will signal to other women that they have something to offer, perpetuating the issue, and suggesting to other men that this man knows or has something they don't.

But, that's generally speaking. Outside of high school, the workplace, or within tightly knit social circles, this doesn't really apply. If we're talking about people you meet in Starbucks, at the mall, or at a bar or club, then it's not as though anyone fills out a resume or has a curriculum vitae of their sexual history that they pass back and forth. So, this little social stigma doesn't really apply to most adult situations, anyway. Even colleges and universities are usually too large for this to be a real issue, unless one or the other's bedcount becomes exaggerated.

On Pleasuring Women

This, in my opinion, is just absurd. When it comes to appearances, I agree that American society is completely irrational and unjust. Women shouldn't need to spend billions a year on makeup and hair products, shouldn't need to flaunt their bodies, and shouldn't need to look gaunt and malnourished to attract attention. However, it appears to me that women choose all but the latter, and in reality, most men aren't into the gaunt look -- particularly not anymore. It may still get you places in Hollywood and Milan, but when it comes to attracting a man, a buxom, voluptuous, or curvaceous woman is probably more likely to get attention than a twig.

But, when it comes to sexual pleasure, I think more pressure is placed on the man. I mean, sure, there is all this pressure on women leading up to the bedroom placed on both parties, but once in the bedroom, it's time for the man to show what he's made of, or get shown the door.

Sure, there's the whole fellacio thing, but I've never heard of a man outright demanding it with threat that it won't go any further without it. I've certainly been with women who won't go there, and I've heard guys complain about a headless relationship on more than one occasion. But, when it comes down to it, as far as men are concerned, as long as they get the vajay (or even something vaguely like it), nothing else really matters:

http://img.4plebs.org...
http://s2.quickmeme.com...
http://blog.wtfconcept.com...

So, ultimately, a woman doesn't have to do much past be naked and have a vagina for a man to be at least generally satisfied.

But, a man? Oh, man, first, don't be little. A small wang is a big problem in bed. Average is about five to six inches. Six will still look a little on the bigger side to most women. Four and a half inches is barely passable -- most women would probably notice, but wouldn't mind much. But four inches or less, and she's going to have a problem with it.

Then, there's the fact that women are sexually complicated. If she really likes a man, she will be pretty stimulated in general, but to really get her off, you have to know about all these different spots and how to finagle them just right. It may not be required every time, but it is required eventually and sometimes thereafter, or she will get bored.

Then, there's the duration of sex -- it takes a while to get a woman off, and usually, quite a bit longer than it takes a man. So, a man has to figure out a way to keep his little man hard long enough to get her to the promised land. When you're younger, it's easier than when you're older. It's probably easiest from the mid-twenties to the mid-thirties for men, when they're still virile enough to have good and lasting erections, but experienced enough to keep from popping off at the mere sight of a naked pretty woman.

Furthermore, a man has to be in decent shape to actually have decent sex. It is a pretty physical activity that requires decent strength to maneuver a woman (so, we're talking maneuvering a 110+ pounds while naked and sweaty on a soft surface with a bunch of crap everywhere to get tangled in) and decent endurance to actually be doing something (and doing it right) while maneuvering that woman.

All this, I consider entire separate from the objectification of women in media, with which I think is a problem, but not as much anymore. Past the irrational expectations and pressure it places on female appearance, I don't think it's much different from the objectification of men in media. Men do have the benefit of being attractive with enough money and/or power, but really, that still translates as quite a bit of undue social pressure on men one way or another. For those of us who don't own a business or direct orders for the murder of their rivals, we still vie for the abs, pecs, and biceps of our media representations, and that is about as easy to get as a 26 inch waist with 36 inch hips.
Such
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5/17/2014 1:57:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh snap, that ended up long. :O

So much for actually having input in this convo. >_<