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Women are not oppressed in the US

SGM_iz_SekC
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7/8/2014 4:46:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I want to see how many people can provide evidence that there is oppression of women in the US. (even though there is a bias against men in nearly everything)
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/8/2014 5:40:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 4:46:42 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
I want to see how many people can provide evidence that there is oppression of women in the US. (even though there is a bias against men in nearly everything)

A bias against men in nearly everything? Do tell.
My work here is, finally, done.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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7/8/2014 5:48:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 5:40:44 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/8/2014 4:46:42 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
I want to see how many people can provide evidence that there is oppression of women in the US. (even though there is a bias against men in nearly everything)

A bias against men in nearly everything? Do tell.

100% of injured players in the NFL and the NBA are males.
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Khaos_Mage
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7/8/2014 5:51:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 5:48:55 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/8/2014 5:40:44 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/8/2014 4:46:42 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
I want to see how many people can provide evidence that there is oppression of women in the US. (even though there is a bias against men in nearly everything)

A bias against men in nearly everything? Do tell.

100% of injured players in the NFL and the NBA are males.

Nah, see, those men who were injured, were injured by men who also injure women.
That is equality, my friend.
My work here is, finally, done.
SGM_iz_SekC
Posts: 26
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7/8/2014 6:03:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 5:51:20 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/8/2014 5:48:55 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/8/2014 5:40:44 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
A bias against men in nearly everything? Do tell.

100% of injured players in the NFL and the NBA are males.

Nah, see, those men who were injured, were injured by men who also injure women.
That is equality, my friend.

"who also injure women" I'd like to see proof to that outrageous claim and here is a bias against menA List Of Issues That Men Suffer In The USA Alone
Men suffer more casualties in war

Men are 99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties
http://thewall-usa.com...
http://thewall-usa.com...
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu...

Men are at least 97% of the deaths since the first Gulf War
http://www.icasualties.org...
http://www.defenselink.mil...
http://www.hatsrcool.com...

"The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts"at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400"but they are historic for modern day warfare."
http://www.womensenews.org...

A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
http://www.womensenews.org...
currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even mentally challenged and physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones)

In contrast, women get every veteran"s benefit a man does, yet comprise less than 3% of combat deaths or casualties and a woman makes the cover of Time magazine (person of the year/2003 standing in front of two men.

Men have it rough in the workplace

Men are 93% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)

Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise. In other words, a fraction of a small fraction.

Men die more often from unnatural causes than women

Men are:

76% of homicide victims " DOJ

80% of Suicide victims " CDC

Also:

Suicide ranks 11th among causes of death in the US, with 30,622 completed suicides in 2001. It is the 3rd leading cause of death among people 15 to 24 yr. Men X05; 75 yr have the highest rate of death by suicide. Among all age groups, male deaths by suicide outnumber female deaths by 4:1."
http://www.merck.com...

"The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father.
http://www.glennsacks.com...

~Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
~Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
~24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001
~24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
~In other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths were male.
http://www.cdc.gov...
Of the top fifteen leading causes of death, men lead in 12 categories, are tied in two and trail in one. Even though more women die of heart disease each year, men die of heart disease many years earlier.
http://www.cdc.gov...
http://www.sentencingproject.org...

Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims

Male rape has been called "The most closely guarded secret of American prisons." (Weiss and Friar 1974)

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
http://www.loompanics.com...

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com...

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Other facts regarding men and rape:

2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.
http://pubpages.unh.edu...

94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It"s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia
http://www.nursing.ubc.ca...
Men get screwed over in divorce and custody courts

A woman is the party filing for divorce in about 66% of divorce cases.

"How often was it that many more of women wanted the divorce more than the men?
2/3. The same as the amount responsible for divorce filings. And yet another study of divorced couples found that the majority of divorced wives and husbands both agreed it was the wife who wanted out."
http://www.pobronson.com...
Women receive custody in about 84% of child custody cases.

In the spring of 2002, an estimated 13.4 million parents had custody of 21.5 million children under 21 years of age whose other parent lived somewhere else. About 5 of every 6 custodial parents were mothers (84.4 percent) and 1in 6 were fathers (15.6 percent), proportions statistically unchanged since 1994
http://www.census.gov...
According to Los Angeles divorce consultant Jayne Major:

"Divorced men are often devastated by the loss of their children. It"s a little known fact that in the United States men initiate only a small number of the divorces involving children. Most of the men I deal with never saw their divorces coming, and they are often treated very unfairly by the family courts.""

Paternity fraud is rampant in the U.S.

30% of those named as fathers who test for paternity find they are not the biological father.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com...
Not only is all this imbalance around marriage and children unfair to men, we must also consider that the damaged inflicted on fatherless children is staggering:

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) " 5 times the average.

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes " 32 times the average.

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes " 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)

There is more btw if this isn't overwhelming.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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7/8/2014 6:17:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't know if the statistics in post 5 are accurate, but it sounds about right.
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LogicalLunatic
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7/8/2014 6:22:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
However, the OP doesn't tell the whole story. I have heard that the large majority of rapes (male to female, most of these cases probably are) go unreported.
At the same time, I might be inclined to agree that forcing only males to register for the draft is somewhat sexist.
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rross
Posts: 2,772
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7/8/2014 6:37:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:03:14 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:

2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.

That's really surprising.
SGM_iz_SekC
Posts: 26
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7/8/2014 6:52:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:22:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
However, the OP doesn't tell the whole story. I have heard that the large majority of rapes (male to female, most of these cases probably are) go unreported.
At the same time, I might be inclined to agree that forcing only males to register for the draft is somewhat sexist.

However you also do not tell the whole story that men that report female-male or male-male rape are laughed at and denied shelter in tax-funded abuse shelters, when women and children are gladly accepted. only one tax funded shelter allows men and is laughed at and poked fun at by others
rross
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7/8/2014 6:58:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:52:53 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
But even if we accept that a lot of men suffer - are raped, commit suicide, get killed etc. (and they are overwhelmingly raped and killed by other men, not by women so much). And that's really bad. What does that have to do with your thread title of women being oppressed or not?
SGM_iz_SekC
Posts: 26
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7/8/2014 7:06:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:58:57 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:52:53 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
But even if we accept that a lot of men suffer - are raped, commit suicide, get killed etc. (and they are overwhelmingly raped and killed by other men, not by women so much). And that's really bad. What does that have to do with your thread title of women being oppressed or not?

It really doesn't but I said that there is a bias against men in the US. and someone wanted to know about it.
Thank you for your comment ^^
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/8/2014 8:50:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:03:14 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
"who also injure women" I'd like to see proof to that outrageous claim and here is a bias against menA List Of Issues That Men Suffer In The USA Alone
It's a joke, like the comment was before mine
Men suffer more casualties in war
Not bias

Men are 99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties
Not bias

Men are at least 97% of the deaths since the first Gulf War
Not bias

"The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts"at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400"but they are historic for modern day warfare."
Not bias

A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
Not bias
http://www.womensenews.org...
currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even mentally challenged and physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones)
Not bias


In contrast, women get every veteran"s benefit a man does, yet comprise less than 3% of combat deaths or casualties and a woman makes the cover of Time magazine (person of the year/2003 standing in front of two men.
Not bias

Men have it rough in the workplace

Men are 93% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)
Not bias

Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise. In other words, a fraction of a small fraction.
Not relevant, but possibly statistically disproving the non-point you are making

Men die more often from unnatural causes than women
Not bias

Men are:

76% of homicide victims " DOJ
Not bias

80% of Suicide victims " CDC
Not bias

Also:

Suicide ranks 11th among causes of death in the US, with 30,622 completed suicides in 2001. It is the 3rd leading cause of death among people 15 to 24 yr. Men X05; 75 yr have the highest rate of death by suicide. Among all age groups, male deaths by suicide outnumber female deaths by 4:1."
http://www.merck.com...
Not bias

"The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father.
http://www.glennsacks.com...
Not bias

~Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
~Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
~24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001
~24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
~In other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths were male.
http://www.cdc.gov...
Of the top fifteen leading causes of death, men lead in 12 categories, are tied in two and trail in one. Even though more women die of heart disease each year, men die of heart disease many years earlier.
http://www.cdc.gov...
My god, you love to repeat the same point....
Not bias

Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims
Not bias (but interesting given other stats here)

Male rape has been called "The most closely guarded secret of American prisons." (Weiss and Friar 1974)
Not bias

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
http://www.loompanics.com...
Not bias

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com...
Not bias

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Not bias
Other facts regarding men and rape:

2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.
http://pubpages.unh.edu...
Not even sure what that means, but not bias


94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
Not bias, but odd
Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09.
Not bias
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It"s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia
http://www.nursing.ubc.ca...
What is it with woman and the young?
Not bias
Men get screwed over in divorce and custody courts
Same point as below for custody (posting the same point over and over doesn't make give it more clout)
Divorce, not sure, but probably

A woman is the party filing for divorce in about 66% of divorce cases.
Not bias

"How often was it that many more of women wanted the divorce more than the men?
2/3. The same as the amount responsible for divorce filings. And yet another study of divorced couples found that the majority of divorced wives and husbands both agreed it was the wife who wanted out."
http://www.pobronson.com...
Not bias
Women receive custody in about 84% of child custody cases.
Same point as below

In the spring of 2002, an estimated 13.4 million parents had custody of 21.5 million children under 21 years of age whose other parent lived somewhere else. About 5 of every 6 custodial parents were mothers (84.4 percent) and 1in 6 were fathers (15.6 percent), proportions statistically unchanged since 1994
http://www.census.gov...
Same point as below
According to Los Angeles divorce consultant Jayne Major:

"Divorced men are often devastated by the loss of their children. It"s a little known fact that in the United States men initiate only a small number of the divorces involving children. Most of the men I deal with never saw their divorces coming, and they are often treated very unfairly by the family courts.""
Bias

Paternity fraud is rampant in the U.S.
Not bias

30% of those named as fathers who test for paternity find they are not the biological father.
Not bias (who else would be the father...a woman?)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com...
Not only is all this imbalance around marriage and children unfair to men, we must also consider that the damaged inflicted on fatherless children is staggering:
Fatherless homes =/= divorce

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) " 5 times the average.
Not bias

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes " 32 times the average.
Not bias

Congratulations!!
You made one point.

The fact that there is disparity due to consequences is not evidence
My work here is, finally, done.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/8/2014 10:34:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:58:57 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:52:53 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
But even if we accept that a lot of men suffer - are raped, commit suicide, get killed etc. (and they are overwhelmingly raped and killed by other men, not by women so much). And that's really bad. What does that have to do with your thread title of women being oppressed or not?

Because this matter is a relativistic matter. Neither men nor women live in a vacuum...to say that one is oppressed means that that oppression is relative to the other gender.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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7/8/2014 10:52:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 8:50:49 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:03:14 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
Congratulations!!
You made one point.

The fact that there is disparity due to consequences is not evidence

1) All military statistics stem from the bias that women are barred from combat roles. So that's evident bias in the first 7 points.

2) Regarding the murder and rape statistics, the bias stems from media reporting of only female victimhood. SGM did not cite statistics that demonstrate such, although IMHO that bias is very noticeable.

3) Regarding "50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It"s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia", that goes back to feminine advocacy by groups like NOW that condemn father's groups as potential pederasts and women abusers:

https://nationalparentsorganization.org...

To any extent that people champion women's rights over male rights, you have bias there.

4) About the divorce statistics, unfair treatment in court that favors women can easily explain why the majority of divorce applicants are women, i.e. that bias permeates many, many of the other statistics cited, such as child custody statistics.

5) Regarding paternity fraud, that's evident bias. The very term is a biased term.

Overall, I found much of post #5 convincing. Not all of it, but a good deal of it.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/8/2014 10:58:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 7:06:21 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:58:57 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:52:53 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:
But even if we accept that a lot of men suffer - are raped, commit suicide, get killed etc. (and they are overwhelmingly raped and killed by other men, not by women so much). And that's really bad. What does that have to do with your thread title of women being oppressed or not?

It really doesn't but I said that there is a bias against men in the US. and someone wanted to know about it.
Thank you for your comment ^^

I disagree. The divorce and military statistics easily point to male oppression.

1) A woman has a lot of relative power in a marriage because the breaking of that particular contract tends to place most of the blame on the man, i.e. unfair treatment in courts. This is a form of oppression.

2) Only men serve in combat, and only men are conscripted. Gender specific conscription in an environment of equal rights is easily male oppression.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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7/9/2014 4:43:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 7:06:21 PM, SGM_iz_SekC wrote:

It really doesn't but I said that there is a bias against men in the US. and someone wanted to know about it.

And yet, in your op you asked for evidence that women are oppressed EVEN THOUGH there's bias against men. Which connects the two ideas in the sense that because of bias, one might expect that nobody thinks that women are oppressed. Or that any evidence for women being oppressed would have to somehow account for the bias.

That's my understanding of your op. So could you explain the connection of ideas a bit more?

Thank you for your comment ^^

Thank YOU
rross
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7/9/2014 4:54:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 10:34:51 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Because this matter is a relativistic matter. Neither men nor women live in a vacuum...to say that one is oppressed means that that oppression is relative to the other gender.

Not at all. For example, SGM-iz-sekC talked about male-male rape in prison. Those victims are oppressed independently of women. It doesn't matter how many facts I produce about women's experiences, those male victims are still being assaulted and oppressed. It's not relative. So I find your comment baffling.
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 4:59:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 4:54:35 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/8/2014 10:34:51 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Because this matter is a relativistic matter. Neither men nor women live in a vacuum...to say that one is oppressed means that that oppression is relative to the other gender.

Not at all. For example, SGM-iz-sekC talked about male-male rape in prison. Those victims are oppressed independently of women.

Yes, but those victims are oppressed compared to males not in prison.

Oppression is a relativistic term, just like "powerful". You aren't just "powerful", you're "powerful" compared to someone or something that isn't "powerful".

You can't say that something or someone is oppressed without comparing it to something or someone that isn't.

It doesn't matter how many facts I produce about women's experiences, those male victims are still being assaulted and oppressed. It's not relative. So I find your comment baffling.

Try to think of oppression being possible without a reference point.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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7/9/2014 5:08:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 4:59:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Ok. So are you and the OP suggesting that any description of women's oppression must define it in relation to the cumulative suffering of US males? But why? Why not just compare to some ideal?

For instance, we could compare male rape victims in prison to an imaginary ideal situation where prisoners are not raped.
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 5:14:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:08:27 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 4:59:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Ok. So are you and the OP suggesting that any description of women's oppression must define it in relation to the cumulative suffering of US males? But why? Why not just compare to some ideal?

For instance, we could compare male rape victims in prison to an imaginary ideal situation where prisoners are not raped.

Ok, so let's say you compare it to some ideal, as with the male prison population. Let's say, for sake of argument (I don't know the actual statistics), that 10% of males in prison have been raped, and 1% of males in the populace have been raped. Now, you want to compare male prison rape to the ideal that rape in prison shouldn't happen at all.

Do you see how this is problematic? I mean, males not in prison still face rape...so why should male prisoners be free from rape? (all else being the same) Should all males seek to become imprisoned to avoid rape?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/9/2014 5:17:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:14:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/9/2014 5:08:27 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 4:59:08 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Ok. So are you and the OP suggesting that any description of women's oppression must define it in relation to the cumulative suffering of US males? But why? Why not just compare to some ideal?

For instance, we could compare male rape victims in prison to an imaginary ideal situation where prisoners are not raped.

Ok, so let's say you compare it to some ideal, as with the male prison population. Let's say, for sake of argument (I don't know the actual statistics), that 10% of males in prison have been raped, and 1% of males in the populace have been raped. Now, you want to compare male prison rape to the ideal that rape in prison shouldn't happen at all.

Do you see how this is problematic? I mean, males not in prison still face rape...so why should male prisoners be free from rape? (all else being the same) Should all males seek to become imprisoned to avoid rape?

To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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7/9/2014 5:24:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:14:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Lol. Exactly. If you compare it to a population with 10% rape then you're saying that there's no problem. Which is kind of unfair to the victims who are locked in their cells with their abusers by a democratically elected government and therefore on society's behalf.

I suggest to you that those victims ARE being oppressed and that the situation in prisons SHOULD be compared to the ideal 0% with all rapes being seen as unacceptable.
rross
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7/9/2014 5:26:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:17:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 6:00:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:24:10 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 5:14:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Lol. Exactly. If you compare it to a population with 10% rape then you're saying that there's no problem. Which is kind of unfair to the victims who are locked in their cells with their abusers by a democratically elected government and therefore on society's behalf.

I suggest to you that those victims ARE being oppressed and that the situation in prisons SHOULD be compared to the ideal 0% with all rapes being seen as unacceptable.

It's not saying there's no problem, but there's no problem of oppression. There may be some other problem dealing with causal factors of gender-neutral rapes, but there are no gender specific "oppressors".

So, the statistics here do indeed point to this phenomenon, that perhaps rape statistics are not indicative of some sort of gender specific oppression, whereas in the past that oppression was indeed present. Anyone saying that women are oppressed would then be subject to accusations that they are ignoring male rape statistics.

---

At 7/9/2014 5:26:47 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 5:17:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?

I'm not following your reasoning here, unless you're signaling agreement. If men are being murdered, should women be immune from prosecution? Of course not, and if they were, then you'd have a gender disparity in rights.

I mean, this has occurred throughout American history on a racial basis, and some would say it still occurs on a racial basis, i.e. the George Zimmerman trials, if you were involved in the conversations surrounding that case last year. People thought that one implication from that trial was that white people could murder black people with impunity and not face prison time.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 6:08:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 5:26:47 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 5:17:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?

Another example of oppression:

https://www.youtube.com...

ALL of the officers involved in this incident were found not guilty, leading to the rather convincing depiction of racial oppression. The verdict was the causal factor in the Los Angeles riots.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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7/9/2014 6:12:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 6:00:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?

I'm not following your reasoning here, unless you're signaling agreement. If men are being murdered, should women be immune from prosecution? Of course not, and if they were, then you'd have a gender disparity in rights.

No, I don't mean escape prosecution, I mean escape being murdered themselves. I'm rephrasing your question. If men were being murdered (by some third party), and if women had a means to escape being murdered that was not available to men, should they be allowed to take it?
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 6:13:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 6:12:26 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 6:00:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?

I'm not following your reasoning here, unless you're signaling agreement. If men are being murdered, should women be immune from prosecution? Of course not, and if they were, then you'd have a gender disparity in rights.

No, I don't mean escape prosecution, I mean escape being murdered themselves. I'm rephrasing your question. If men were being murdered (by some third party), and if women had a means to escape being murdered that was not available to men, should they be allowed to take it?

How is this relevant to the issue of oppression?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 6:20:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 6:12:26 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/9/2014 6:00:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
To put this in the context of women's rights, we know that women have been denied rights afforded to men, but is the solution to have women obtain more rights than men?

So if men are being murdered, for example, should women be allowed to escape?

I'm not following your reasoning here, unless you're signaling agreement. If men are being murdered, should women be immune from prosecution? Of course not, and if they were, then you'd have a gender disparity in rights.

No, I don't mean escape prosecution, I mean escape being murdered themselves. I'm rephrasing your question. If men were being murdered (by some third party), and if women had a means to escape being murdered that was not available to men, should they be allowed to take it?

Let me put this another way. Let's say that 10 men and 10 women were being threatened with death somewhere by some third party. Can you say that women are being oppressed by this third party? No, that would be an inaccurate statement. You would say the hostages (a gender neutral term) are being oppressed by this third party.

Now, let's imagine another scenario where 10 men and 10 women were being threatened with death, the kidnapper lets the other men escape and killed the women. Yes, oppression of women by the kidnapper.

Third scenario, 10 men and 10 women threatened, kidnapper lets the other women go and kills off the 10 men. Yes, oppression of men by the kidnapper.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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7/9/2014 6:22:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 6:20:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/9/2014 6:12:26 AM, rross wrote:

Third scenario, 10 men and 10 women threatened, kidnapper lets the other women go and kills off the 10 men. Yes, oppression of men by the kidnapper.

Just note, if you looked at this specific scenario and said, "but the women were kidnapped! Oppression!", people are going to roll their eyes at you and point out that the men were kidnapped AND murdered.

See the problem here?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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7/9/2014 6:24:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/9/2014 6:00:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
It's not saying there's no problem, but there's no problem of oppression.
Oppression just means prolonged cruel or unjust treatment. Do you not think that a prisonner getting regularly raped is not cruel and unjust? Of course it is.

There may be some other problem dealing with causal factors of gender-neutral rapes, but there are no gender specific "oppressors".

But men are being oppressed. Which is the issue in question (except the op says women obviously.)

So, the statistics here do indeed point to this phenomenon, that perhaps rape statistics are not indicative of some sort of gender specific oppression, whereas in the past that oppression was indeed present. Anyone saying that women are oppressed would then be subject to accusations that they are ignoring male rape statistics.

But why does saying women are oppressed imply that men are not oppressed - or indeed how does it say anything at all about men? If I say that prison rape victims are oppressed, does that imply anything about women? Or any other particular population? No. Really not.

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