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Children and Church

SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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7/12/2014 7:51:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for parents to teach their children morals or what's right and wrong or how to do things or advice things to be respectful etc? ... Children have a mind of their own. I'm not a Christian because my parents forced it on me. I'm a Christian because God chose for me to be one. It wasn't forced. It was discussed and shared and taught but not forced. To force is to do things out of aggressive or enforce with punishment if not corporative.
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Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?
InnovativeEphemera
Posts: 40
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7/12/2014 8:04:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?

Interesting points. In an ideal world, maybe parents would explain something to the effect of, "some people think that this is true, this is why others say it's not true, and one day when you're older you'll make a decision about what you think. You're allowed to change your mind as many times as you like, as long as you have reasons each time, and aren't just religious/atheist because someone tells you to be".

Naturally, this is never going to happen. Parents will teach their kids what they believe. Maybe the best you can hope for is that if the child chooses another path, the parents are still supportive.
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/12/2014 8:27:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 8:04:32 PM, InnovativeEphemera wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?


Interesting points. In an ideal world, maybe parents would explain something to the effect of, "some people think that this is true, this is why others say it's not true, and one day when you're older you'll make a decision about what you think. You're allowed to change your mind as many times as you like, as long as you have reasons each time, and aren't just religious/atheist because someone tells you to be".

Naturally, this is never going to happen. Parents will teach their kids what they believe. Maybe the best you can hope for is that if the child chooses another path, the parents are still supportive.

Well on the other hand, it is their house and their rules, so i see no harm in teaching their religion on their child..
InnovativeEphemera
Posts: 40
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7/12/2014 8:37:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 8:27:02 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 8:04:32 PM, InnovativeEphemera wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?


Interesting points. In an ideal world, maybe parents would explain something to the effect of, "some people think that this is true, this is why others say it's not true, and one day when you're older you'll make a decision about what you think. You're allowed to change your mind as many times as you like, as long as you have reasons each time, and aren't just religious/atheist because someone tells you to be".

Naturally, this is never going to happen. Parents will teach their kids what they believe. Maybe the best you can hope for is that if the child chooses another path, the parents are still supportive.

Well on the other hand, it is their house and their rules, so i see no harm in teaching their religion on their child..

The problem there is no matter how you justify it as "not indoctrination" that's exactly where it starts. That's why people born in the west are mostly Christians, people born in south-east Asia are Buddhists, Taoists (etc, there are very many oriental religions) and people in the middle-east are mostly Muslim. It's just a product of what you've been brought up with and each and every person thinks their religion is equally valid and true and everyone else's is false and misled. Parents obviously have rights over their children but I'm wondering if on this topic there's some moral threshold that may potentially be crossed?
SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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7/12/2014 8:44:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 8:27:02 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 8:04:32 PM, InnovativeEphemera wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?

Why would it be bad to teach a child to be skeptical? You wouldn't be telling them that anything is true or false, only that they should look into things themselves and not take things at face value or just because someone says it's true. As for forcing your child to be an atheist, I'd say it's just as bad as forcing a child to be religion X, Y, or Z. It's fine if a parent tells their child why they don't believe there's a god, but it's completely different to not allow your child to read a Bible or Quran that he or she checked out from the library. I don't see that as being any different from forcing a child to read the Bible or Quran.


Interesting points. In an ideal world, maybe parents would explain something to the effect of, "some people think that this is true, this is why others say it's not true, and one day when you're older you'll make a decision about what you think. You're allowed to change your mind as many times as you like, as long as you have reasons each time, and aren't just religious/atheist because someone tells you to be".

Naturally, this is never going to happen. Parents will teach their kids what they believe. Maybe the best you can hope for is that if the child chooses another path, the parents are still supportive.

Well on the other hand, it is their house and their rules, so i see no harm in teaching their religion on their child..

I don't have a problem with parents teaching their children what they believe; it's unavoidable. The children would eventually ask anyway. What I was talking about is forcing religion on a child who doesn't want any part of the religion. This is more for the 12-18 year old group than anything under, since most children under 12 aren't going to doubt what their parents tell them anyway.

But anyway, I was just asking if you thought what I brought up should be legal, not if other things should be legal.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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7/12/2014 9:05:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:51:56 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for parents to teach their children morals or what's right and wrong or how to do things or advice things to be respectful etc? ... Children have a mind of their own. I'm not a Christian because my parents forced it on me. I'm a Christian because God chose for me to be one. It wasn't forced. It was discussed and shared and taught but not forced. To force is to do things out of aggressive or enforce with punishment if not corporative.

Those things should be legal because those things are necessary for your child to function well in society. I would argue that not teaching your children how to do things, not giving them advice, and not teaching them what actions are appropriate are examples of neglect. My topic, which had to do with forcing religion on children, isn't the same as teaching your children how to act in society.

Google defined my use of force as "make (someone) do something against their will." In any case, your situation isn't what I was referring to. I was wondering if you thought it should be legal under the circumstances I described, not under the circumstances you experienced.

However, I would argue that the leading factor for your being a Christian is that you were born to Christian parents. I would also argue that had you been born to Muslim parents in the Middle East, you would almost certainly be a Muslim with convictions just as strong as they are now. You don't have to force someone to believe something if they already believe it by the time they might start needing to be forced. Anyway, that's a topic for another thread. You can message me if you want to talk about this point more, but I'd prefer to stay on topic in this thread.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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7/15/2014 3:04:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

I believe exposing children to religion is a good thing, but forcing them into it is indoctrination. All of my boys believe in the Christian god, but not because I have forced it upon them, It is their own choice, and I believe trying to talk them into or out of belief is simply wrong. I have even found myself in the uncomfortable position of explaining theology to them from the church's perspective even though I am an atheist. My wife, who is a weak theist, takes particular joy in watching these conversations.
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Disquisition
Posts: 391
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7/16/2014 2:25:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

I don't think a parent should force anything on their children (like demanding they believe) but they have the right to provide suggestions on how the child should mold their worldview.

But if it was a law then how would this be enforced and would the consent of a child even be a reasonable basis of whether or not the boy/girl disagrees with practicing the tenets of an entire religion?
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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7/16/2014 3:52:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Of course it should be legal! Why would you even consider making this illegal? Do you really wish to mandate, regulate and or legislate parenthood? Think about what your saying. Lets say a parent or parents refused to oblige the law. What then? Are you going to take their kids away and throw the parent in jail for teaching religion to a child? What exactly are you getting at??? Do you really want the government involved in every aspect of your life including what you teach your children. At what point does your argument stop. Why not just make religion illegal or have a religion age limit? This is such a silly discussion. In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force food bias on their child if the child does not consent. Maybe the child does not want to be a vegan. Heck, should it be legal for a parent to ground a child against their consent.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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7/16/2014 10:28:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

I don't think it's right for parents to force their kids into religion, but I don't think it should be illegal for them too. Honestly parents will teach their kids whatever they want, and ultimately when the child is 18 they can stop participating in it. But they way I see it, is if they are living for free under their parents, then they can participate in the religion until they are old enough and smart enough to figure out that's is all a scam (though a lot of times, they unfortunately don't).
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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7/16/2014 10:37:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:51:56 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for parents to teach their children morals or what's right and wrong or how to do things or advice things to be respectful etc? ... Children have a mind of their own.

Yes, and no. While functionally, they have "free will", personalities and behaviors are all formed out of learned behaviors. Just like your parents teach you how to talk and use the potty, they also help form beliefs and "morals" by teaching you what they're impression of those things are.

I'm not a Christian because my parents forced it on me. I'm a Christian because God chose for me to be one.

So you are conveniently raised in a Christian household under Christian beliefs system? Or are are you saying that God would not have chosen you to be Chrisitian if you were raised in another household with individuals who were not religious?

It wasn't forced. It was discussed and shared and taught but not forced. To force is to do things out of aggressive or enforce with punishment if not corporative.

There's a slippery line between forcing someone in the way you describe, and manipulation. Obviously we want our kids to grow up to be the way we want them, but the problem I think the OP is hinting at is the overall harms that these ways of thinking distill into the youth.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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7/16/2014 10:39:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 8:04:32 PM, InnovativeEphemera wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:57:53 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

Should it be legal for a parent to force their skepticism and atheism on a child that did not consent?


Interesting points. In an ideal world, maybe parents would explain something to the effect of, "some people think that this is true, this is why others say it's not true, and one day when you're older you'll make a decision about what you think. You're allowed to change your mind as many times as you like, as long as you have reasons each time, and aren't just religious/atheist because someone tells you to be".

Naturally, this is never going to happen. Parents will teach their kids what they believe. Maybe the best you can hope for is that if the child chooses another path, the parents are still supportive.

Unfortunately the bolded will is correct, though I hope to make that difference in my household.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
rross
Posts: 2,772
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7/17/2014 1:47:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 7:43:01 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
In your opinion, should it be legal for a parent to force their religion on their child if the child does not consent? For example, making their child go to their church, making their child practice their religion at home, preaching to their child at home, etc.

Why or why not?

So interesting. It reminds me of the conversation I had with Adreamofliberty, who argued for sex with children. He argued that parents know what's in the best interests of their children, and if a loving father decides that having sex with his 13-year-old daughter is the best way to teach her about sex then the government has no business stopping him.

On the whole, I think people would consider this idea abhorrent. I do. But then, there is this tension between an imperfect society and imperfect parents making decisions about how to raise children. Then, I suppose, there's the extended family as well to consider. Too much government intervention would be terrible, but where should the line be?

Personally, I think children should be raised in the religion/philosophy of their parents and the government has no business intervening in that. Just because I have no faith that a bunch of bureaucrats could decide wisely on something like that, and anyway, diversity in beliefs is good for society.