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Conforming is easier than fighting. Feminism.

hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog
hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/6/2014 2:10:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By the way, do not misinterpret my title. The idea behind my title is meant to imply that it is easier to become a bimbo than to be feminist.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/6/2014 4:14:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You would probably like Jean Kilbourne's "Killing Us Softly" as well. She has done the talk over and over again as times have changed, commenting on advertising's portrayal of women and female bodies. I actually saw her speak once at a university too. She's pretty funny.

http://www.jeankilbourne.com...

Anyway, on your post,

I'll start off saying, I agree that Kate Upton should certainly not be considered a top role model for women- unless the women are aspiring models.

I agree that the portrayal of women in the media is too often objectifying and that should change.

I agree that it is more difficult to rebel against these notions than it is to accept them and roll with it.

That being said, I think that it's worth noting why revealing clothing is an issue in the first place. It has a lot to do with the reason women are shamed for breastfeeding in public- women's bodies are viewed more often as sexual objects that should be put away. So if you say women should stop wearing revealing clothing so that their bodies won't be viewed as sexual anymore, you'd just be encouraging the idea that women's bodies are sexual objects to be put away. I would argue that a woman wearing revealing clothing isn't necessarily sexual at all. It could be- if she wanted it to be. But whether people find her sexy is out of her control and unfortunately in our society, women's bodies are, as we've established, treated as sexual objects that ought to be kept under wraps. Women are not treated as sexual or sexy on their own terms but on the viewers terms. Consequently, women are viewed as immoral for showing their bodies (as if they're walking around waving a dildo around- GASP!) while men can do so whenever they want. They might get shocked glances, but they certainly won't be criticized for being too sexual.

I eagerly await a time when a woman wearing shorts and a tank-top is not noteworthy at all because women's bodies are not hyper-sexualized in the wider culture.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/6/2014 5:08:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 4:14:21 PM, Oryus wrote:
You would probably like Jean Kilbourne's "Killing Us Softly" as well. She has done the talk over and over again as times have changed, commenting on advertising's portrayal of women and female bodies. I actually saw her speak once at a university too. She's pretty funny.

http://www.jeankilbourne.com...

Anyway, on your post,

I'll start off saying, I agree that Kate Upton should certainly not be considered a top role model for women- unless the women are aspiring models.

I agree that the portrayal of women in the media is too often objectifying and that should change.

I agree that it is more difficult to rebel against these notions than it is to accept them and roll with it.

That being said, I think that it's worth noting why revealing clothing is an issue in the first place. It has a lot to do with the reason women are shamed for breastfeeding in public- women's bodies are viewed more often as sexual objects that should be put away. So if you say women should stop wearing revealing clothing so that their bodies won't be viewed as sexual anymore, you'd just be encouraging the idea that women's bodies are sexual objects to be put away. I would argue that a woman wearing revealing clothing isn't necessarily sexual at all. It could be- if she wanted it to be. But whether people find her sexy is out of her control and unfortunately in our society, women's bodies are, as we've established, treated as sexual objects that ought to be kept under wraps. Women are not treated as sexual or sexy on their own terms but on the viewers terms. Consequently, women are viewed as immoral for showing their bodies (as if they're walking around waving a dildo around- GASP!) while men can do so whenever they want. They might get shocked glances, but they certainly won't be criticized for being too sexual.

I eagerly await a time when a woman wearing shorts and a tank-top is not noteworthy at all because women's bodies are not hyper-sexualized in the wider culture.
------

I see your point and I do not think shorts and a tank top is wrong by any means.

I am referring to extremely low cut shirts, butt hanging out of shorts, things of that nature. And really, it's when it happens in a professional environment that I do not like.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/6/2014 5:10:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 5:08:08 PM, hmangini wrote:
At 8/6/2014 4:14:21 PM, Oryus wrote:
You would probably like Jean Kilbourne's "Killing Us Softly" as well. She has done the talk over and over again as times have changed, commenting on advertising's portrayal of women and female bodies. I actually saw her speak once at a university too. She's pretty funny.

http://www.jeankilbourne.com...

Anyway, on your post,

I'll start off saying, I agree that Kate Upton should certainly not be considered a top role model for women- unless the women are aspiring models.

I agree that the portrayal of women in the media is too often objectifying and that should change.

I agree that it is more difficult to rebel against these notions than it is to accept them and roll with it.

That being said, I think that it's worth noting why revealing clothing is an issue in the first place. It has a lot to do with the reason women are shamed for breastfeeding in public- women's bodies are viewed more often as sexual objects that should be put away. So if you say women should stop wearing revealing clothing so that their bodies won't be viewed as sexual anymore, you'd just be encouraging the idea that women's bodies are sexual objects to be put away. I would argue that a woman wearing revealing clothing isn't necessarily sexual at all. It could be- if she wanted it to be. But whether people find her sexy is out of her control and unfortunately in our society, women's bodies are, as we've established, treated as sexual objects that ought to be kept under wraps. Women are not treated as sexual or sexy on their own terms but on the viewers terms. Consequently, women are viewed as immoral for showing their bodies (as if they're walking around waving a dildo around- GASP!) while men can do so whenever they want. They might get shocked glances, but they certainly won't be criticized for being too sexual.

I eagerly await a time when a woman wearing shorts and a tank-top is not noteworthy at all because women's bodies are not hyper-sexualized in the wider culture.
------

I see your point and I do not think shorts and a tank top is wrong by any means.

I am referring to extremely low cut shirts, butt hanging out of shorts, things of that nature. And really, it's when it happens in a professional environment that I do not like.

Yeah, I was getting that feeling- that you were honing in on professional environments- but I wasn't sure if it was just that.

Anyway, welcome to DDO. Hope you stick around.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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8/6/2014 10:47:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog

Have you ever looked into less (I can't think of a better word) 'tame' version of feminism?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/7/2014 8:10:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 10:47:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog

Have you ever looked into less (I can't think of a better word) 'tame' version of feminism?

What do you suggest?
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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8/7/2014 11:08:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog

Agree for most of your proposition (I do in fact, found a girl to be more attractive in less revealing attire) except for one - sexualization of female body. I see nothing wrong in prostitution/strip club/pornography, it's their right to commercialized sexual aspect of their body - and I don't think anyone have the right to say anything on this subject except for the prostitutes themselves. Actually, I think they deserve more attention from the society - not more repercussion, these are working women like anyone else - why should they be considered like an outcast of the society?
Agent_Orange
Posts: 2,252
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8/7/2014 11:26:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I consider myself a feminist as well. But I don't look towards women not wearing revealing clothing, I look towards a day when a woman CAN wear revealing clothing and not have to be afraid she's going to be attacked.
#BlackLivesMatter
hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/9/2014 8:39:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I understand the underlying belief; to be seen as professional no matter how attractive or unattractive they are, but wearing an over-exposed, V-neck to work is not the right way to handle it. We don"t need to expose ourselves to make a point. This is not the right way to say, "Accept me for who I am."
A better way of doing this is by not deepening our voice to be heard. (I have been guilty of this, many women do it when in a male dominated environment). Hold positions of leadership, etc. Don"t be afraid to express your femininity, but don"t confuse expressing your femininity and nudity.
For example, I don"t think the hooters girl are really making a statement for women. To me that is "sexualizing" and not "desexualizing" women. Resembling them is contrasting to the point I would like to make.
In all honesty, if women want to dress like "bimbos" that is their prerogative and I do not care, but just don"t do it and call it feminism.
hmangini
Posts: 28
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8/9/2014 9:08:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 11:08:07 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog

Agree for most of your proposition (I do in fact, found a girl to be more attractive in less revealing attire) except for one - sexualization of female body. I see nothing wrong in prostitution/strip club/pornography, it's their right to commercialized sexual aspect of their body - and I don't think anyone have the right to say anything on this subject except for the prostitutes themselves. Actually, I think they deserve more attention from the society - not more repercussion, these are working women like anyone else - why should they be considered like an outcast of the society?

----
I never said women do not have the right to sexualize themselves nor do I agree women who sexualize themselves are outcasts.
Do you think the cheerleader is the outcast or the science girl?
According to advertisement and the media more people stand behind you than me.
Seriously, how many people wouldn't stand behind you?

I have seen thousands of naked women in movies, advertisement, magazines and more.That's the meaning behind my title. It's easier to sexualize myself than to set the example.

When you look at women in the STEM fields and women who sexualize themselves who do you think is outnumbered really?

Women are taught since they are little what they look like is what matters. Not by their parents, but by the public. 90% of LITTLE GIRLS are dissatisfied with their bodies. Even as a little girl I can remember my friends and I in middle school skipping meals and running during lunch. I don't want to be sexualized or programmed that my purpose is to serve men with my shirt off, dance around naked or look like Barbie.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/11/2014 11:13:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
hmangini- I get your point more now.

Though your use of the word "bimbo" still rubs me the wrong way. I like that you'd like women to feel empowered in such a way that they need not use their naked body to gain some kind of recognition or something, but I don't think shaming those who do is really helpful either.

Out of curiosity, have you heard of the Guerilla Girls?

If not, and for others reading as well, they are a feminist group of activist artists. They have a funny book called Bitches, Bimbos, and Ballbreakers where they try to go through stereotypes of women and deconstruct them. It's a pretty light read. You'd probably enjoy it. One of their most famous posters is this:
http://poweredbygirl.org...

If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this book too:
http://www.guerrillagirls.com...

They used to have some pages available to look at on their website but unfortunately, not anymore.

But you can look at a few introductory pages on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Morality
Posts: 135
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8/11/2014 4:43:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I classify myself as a feminist as well, and I just have to say that the revealing clothing and sexual objectification are, in my opinion, minor issues when it comes to fighting equal rights. Both men and women should be able to wear revealing clothes when the time is appropriate.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is cultural sexism in politics and the workplace.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,035
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8/17/2014 12:59:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
As a feminist this is what I fight for:

As a non-feminist, I'd like to reply to each of these.

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

I agree. Here is the thing, we'd need to shift the entire paradigm of how we judge "role models". Usually, they are smart, accomplished individuals. Beauty is actually associated with success though, and studies have shown that physically beautiful people do meet greater success at acquiring jobs and career opportunities.

With that said, I believe it would be great to promote some "role models" from other fields other than modeling. They do exist though, there are many female role models who aren't models such as Oprah Winfrey, Hillary Clinton, ect., but in general it is easier to sell beautiful people as role models because they are instantly accepted as one on a physical level.

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

I agree with you. It truly bothers me in some cases when girls where shirts that show cleavage but then complain when guys look at their chest. Kinda self-defeating if I can be perfectly honest. I think modesty in clothing can be sexy as well because it reflects their overall modest nature which, for me, is a trait I appreciate.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

Those places are usually always gross, dim, and overall tacky. It's a bigger problem than simply not supporting those places though. One must consider the type of girl that would agree to place her body on display in-front of strangers. What caused her to end up in such a place? I believe there are greater issues at hand when discussing how to truly end that subculture.

4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

I think this might simply be an issue with individual perceptions. I view women as "sexual objects" because, to me, they are. Women are beautiful, sexy, hypnotizing creatures which attract me greater than any other thing in this world. I love touching, kissing, holding, and basking in all that is the feminine essence. Can I truly deny myself of my very nature? Why should I?

I think the line simply needs to be drawn between appreciating all that is female, and turning them into nothing more than objects of desire. There is a vast difference between the two. For, as I admit they are sexual objects to me, I also know they are worthy of being loved, cared for, and being my equal in many things. There are also qualities in women that I appreciate as someone who will never have them, like the intuition that forms between a mother and her children or the healing qualities a woman can have on a man's soul.

They are the givers of life, and I believe that all of this wouldn't be an issue at all if we could just come together as a community and set a standard line that should not be crossed when appreciating the female form.
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kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/17/2014 4:10:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:33:24 PM, hmangini wrote:
Just because a group supports similar concepts (i.e. political groups) does not mean their concepts are identical nor are their propositions or morals.

The same is true for feminism.

NO I DO NOT HATE MEN. NO I DO NO FEEL ENTITLED BECAUSE OF HISTORY.

As a feminist this is what I fight for:

1)For Kate Upton not to be re-voted as the "role model" for women.
Proposition: What about women of science or any other topic other than our body?

2)For women to stop wearing revealing clothes. (Especially in professional environments) (ahem anchorwomen)
Proposition: Buy appropriate clothing. You can still look good or even sexy without over exposing.

3)Stop supporting topless bars or strip clubs.
Proposition: Help women move away from those environments or don't go.

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT:
4)Social Media
Women are sexual objects in movies, magazines, music, advertisement and much more.
Proposition: Women cannot change our classification as "sexual objects" alone. We need the help of men too. Many women contribute to our classification as sexual objects because some women and many men support this. Do not support this behavior.

You ask, "Why would I do that when I can see naked women?"

Well, please consider the profound effect this has on little girls, teens and women.
(Suggested Netflix documentary: Miss Representation)
Statistics provided in documentary.

Signed,
Geeky Computer Science Chick
Girl tired of going to restaurants with half-naked girls as waitresses for work functions
2 surgeries later
Girl that feels she has no voice
Underdog

I'm glad that you're a feminist and an ally. However, there are one or two things about your post that I think should be re-examined. You say that women should stop wear particular types of clothing, but I'd shift the focus to society stopping their double standards--on the one hand demanding that they stop "drawing attention" from men (virgin/purity myth) and calling women a sl-ut who don't conform; and on the other valuing so much of the woman's person on their appearance (in short, objectifying) and ignoring/ostracizing her because she doesn't look sexy enough. I'd personally want to advocate that women should wear whatever the hell they want. Ogling is the fault of the spectator, not the spectacle.

I'd also challenge your suggestion that there isn't male entitlement, although there are certainly uniquely male struggles. One thing our culture accepts is males being entitled to women's bodies, which is not ok.

I agree with your suggestion that one should stop supporting strip clubs and brothels. However, I think rather than focus on shaming the stripper/prostitute, it might be more useful to direct that attention on those who are objectifying/oppressing them. They don't need your "help" to "move away" from stripping. That still classifies the woman as the wrongdoer, rather than focusing on the consumers who are exploiting underprivileged women's bodies for their own enjoyment.

Of course, I completely agree with your sentiment, and am glad to know there are more male allies out there. Keep up the good work.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/17/2014 4:12:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 11:26:58 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
I consider myself a feminist as well. But I don't look towards women not wearing revealing clothing, I look towards a day when a woman CAN wear revealing clothing and not have to be afraid she's going to be attacked.

Amen, ally.