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A culture that doesn't blame victim!

kbub
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8/17/2014 3:56:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Do you think we can make a culture that stops blaming the rape victim, and campaigns against the potential rapist instead? I'm optimistic.

Next time someone asks "what were you wearing," maybe show them this clip.

http://www.upworthy.com...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
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8/17/2014 4:36:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.

I love how it looked like you started to agree, and then said the exact opposite. Surprise attack! :P

Seriously, though, it's messed up that we have a blame-the-victim attitude when it comes to rape. I did like the video, though.
Ore_Ele
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8/17/2014 4:43:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 4:36:27 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.

I love how it looked like you started to agree, and then said the exact opposite. Surprise attack! :P

Seriously, though, it's messed up that we have a blame-the-victim attitude when it comes to rape. I did like the video, though.

Let's take this away from rape and the high emotion of it for just a moment and look at a different crime that is still undoubtedly a crime, but one that both sides can look at without being effected by emotion. Namely car theft.

If a person leaves their car unlocked, with the door open and with the keys in the ignition and it somehow gets stolen, is it not justified to say that maybe they could have taken some better steps to have prevented the car theft? That is not to say that the thief should not be punished or even receive a smidgen less of a punishment for what they did.

However, rationally, we have to understand that we live in an imperfect world and there are bad things that happen and that we should take actions to minimize the risk as much as is rational (that level would be determined by weighing the risk vs the cost).

Very few are saying that the rapist is fine with engaging in rape because of XYZ.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 4:43:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:36:27 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.

I love how it looked like you started to agree, and then said the exact opposite. Surprise attack! :P

Seriously, though, it's messed up that we have a blame-the-victim attitude when it comes to rape. I did like the video, though.

Let's take this away from rape and the high emotion of it for just a moment and look at a different crime that is still undoubtedly a crime, but one that both sides can look at without being effected by emotion. Namely car theft.

If a person leaves their car unlocked, with the door open and with the keys in the ignition and it somehow gets stolen, is it not justified to say that maybe they could have taken some better steps to have prevented the car theft? That is not to say that the thief should not be punished or even receive a smidgen less of a punishment for what they did.

However, rationally, we have to understand that we live in an imperfect world and there are bad things that happen and that we should take actions to minimize the risk as much as is rational (that level would be determined by weighing the risk vs the cost).

Very few are saying that the rapist is fine with engaging in rape because of XYZ.

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.

There are always steps that could have been taken. If I'm walking down the street, and I get mugged, I could have perhaps been carrying a gun and prevented the robbery, but I don't think I have any culpability for "failing" to do that...
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Ore_Ele
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8/17/2014 5:25:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:43:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:36:27 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.

I love how it looked like you started to agree, and then said the exact opposite. Surprise attack! :P

Seriously, though, it's messed up that we have a blame-the-victim attitude when it comes to rape. I did like the video, though.

Let's take this away from rape and the high emotion of it for just a moment and look at a different crime that is still undoubtedly a crime, but one that both sides can look at without being effected by emotion. Namely car theft.

If a person leaves their car unlocked, with the door open and with the keys in the ignition and it somehow gets stolen, is it not justified to say that maybe they could have taken some better steps to have prevented the car theft? That is not to say that the thief should not be punished or even receive a smidgen less of a punishment for what they did.

However, rationally, we have to understand that we live in an imperfect world and there are bad things that happen and that we should take actions to minimize the risk as much as is rational (that level would be determined by weighing the risk vs the cost).

Very few are saying that the rapist is fine with engaging in rape because of XYZ.

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.

I am not saying that they don't exist, nor have I. I even specifically went and reworded my last post to avoid anyone making that claim. There are people that think that way, but to imply that the entire culture thinks that way is to imply that I think that way, that my family think that way, my coworkers and neighbors and our society in general. What you really find is that it is an extremely small, extremely vocal minority that has good internet access (or shock jocks that are being asshats for ratings)


Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

It is not meant to be an absolute analogy with every phrase being code for something with rape. It is an example of where someone can take actions to reduce risk of becoming a victim, but they don't. I used a similar example with Royal way back when of robbing a house. If you have no alarm, leave the front door unlocked and post a sign that says "gone on vacation, won't be back until 9/1/2014 and you get robbed, you can reasonably say that some responsibility lies with you.


More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.

There are always steps that could have been taken. If I'm walking down the street, and I get mugged, I could have perhaps been carrying a gun and prevented the robbery, but I don't think I have any culpability for "failing" to do that...

As I said, it depends on the rational equation for it. Action X reduces the risk by Xr% and costs Xc (be that in time or money or stress or reduced happiness or whatever the costs are). You weigh the balance to find if Action X is reasonable or not. You cannot engage in hindsight (if I walked down that alley rather than this alley) unless it is something that could have legitimately been foreseen.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.


There are always steps that could have been taken. If I'm walking down the street, and I get mugged, I could have perhaps been carrying a gun and prevented the robbery, but I don't think I have any culpability for "failing" to do that...
I scrutinize date rape a lot more than B&E or mugging type rapes, unless they were drugged.
My work here is, finally, done.
kbub
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8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.


More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????
Ore_Ele
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8/17/2014 7:39:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????

There are questionable ones. Where they says "no" after the fact (like when they sober up and think, "oh god, what have I done?"). They didn't say no during and changed their mind afterwards.

Or you get where what happened cannot be confirmed. One person says X happened, and the other person says Y happened. And there is no real evidence to go one way or the other.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/17/2014 7:43:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:39:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????

There are questionable ones. Where they says "no" after the fact (like when they sober up and think, "oh god, what have I done?"). They didn't say no during and changed their mind afterwards.


Changing your mind later is not rape. Consent at the time matters. Asleep means no.

Or you get where what happened cannot be confirmed. One person says X happened, and the other person says Y happened. And there is no real evidence to go one way or the other.

In the court of law, evidence can be murky. However, that's not what I'm talking about. Rape itself is not "questionable."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/17/2014 7:48:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:43:50 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:39:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????

There are questionable ones. Where they says "no" after the fact (like when they sober up and think, "oh god, what have I done?"). They didn't say no during and changed their mind afterwards.


Changing your mind later is not rape. Consent at the time matters. Asleep means no.

Or you get where what happened cannot be confirmed. One person says X happened, and the other person says Y happened. And there is no real evidence to go one way or the other.

In the court of law, evidence can be murky. However, that's not what I'm talking about. Rape itself is not "questionable."

In that regards, it isn't murky. It is either rape or not rape. It just gets murky when it comes to proving it. What you usually have (in the cases of "legal murky" not in all rapes) is either someone puts themselves in a bad situation (they intentionally go into that bedroom at the party with the guy, but change their mind, which is rape) or they change their mind (which is not rape) and claim that they said "no" before. It becomes extremely difficult to prove and such "murky."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/17/2014 7:52:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.

Are you suggesting that a women that goes into a strangers home, starts to have sex, and then changes he mind midway through is not somewhat responsible?
I mean, do you not go to someone and say "you really shouldn't have given you bank account number for some national lottery you won from a country you've never been to".
Does it absolve any wrong doing that the victim has some fault? Of course not.
But, your OP wants to suggest there is no blame assigned to it, in all cases. I disagree.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????
Yes. Not every rape is clearly a case of rape. Date rape is especially murky.
Tell me, if I get my wife drunk and have sex with her, did I rape her? She might have been too drunk to consent.



There's a reason why I don't respond to you in the forums.
My work here is, finally, done.
kbub
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8/17/2014 7:52:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:48:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:43:50 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:39:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????

There are questionable ones. Where they says "no" after the fact (like when they sober up and think, "oh god, what have I done?"). They didn't say no during and changed their mind afterwards.


Changing your mind later is not rape. Consent at the time matters. Asleep means no.

Or you get where what happened cannot be confirmed. One person says X happened, and the other person says Y happened. And there is no real evidence to go one way or the other.

In the court of law, evidence can be murky. However, that's not what I'm talking about. Rape itself is not "questionable."

In that regards, it isn't murky. It is either rape or not rape. It just gets murky when it comes to proving it. What you usually have (in the cases of "legal murky" not in all rapes) is either someone puts themselves in a bad situation (they intentionally go into that bedroom at the party with the guy, but change their mind, which is rape) or they change their mind (which is not rape) and claim that they said "no" before. It becomes extremely difficult to prove and such "murky."

I'm no lawyer, but I think that you're right that legal cases can be tricky to prove. I think you're also right that there is no such thing as "murky" rape. I hope you'll forgive me--I thought that you were asserting that rape itself is questionable.
kbub
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8/17/2014 7:59:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:52:06 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.

Are you suggesting that a women that goes into a strangers home, starts to have sex, and then changes he mind midway through is not somewhat responsible?

Yes, I am. If someone says stop, and you ignore them, you are showing no regard for the wishes of the other. You are violating the person when they didn't want you to. That is sexual assault and rape.

I mean, do you not go to someone and say "you really shouldn't have given you bank account number for some national lottery you won from a country you've never been to".

Yes, I don't give people my bank account number. But if someone doesn't want to have sex, that is their decision, even mid sex. If the other person wants to have sex anyway and does, s/he is having non-consensual penetration, which is rape.

Does it absolve any wrong doing that the victim has some fault? Of course not.

The victim was having sex. S/he does not "owe" the partner anything. It is her/his body.

But, your OP wants to suggest there is no blame assigned to it, in all cases. I disagree.

There is NEVER an excuse nor an invitation for rape.



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????
Yes. Not every rape is clearly a case of rape. Date rape is especially murky.
Tell me, if I get my wife drunk and have sex with her, did I rape her? She might have been too drunk to consent.

If you did not have her consent to have sex, then yes you did. Also, if she were asleep, then also yes.



There's a reason why I don't respond to you in the forums.

Irony?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/17/2014 8:17:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My wife could probably be locked away for the rest of her life for rape, lol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/17/2014 8:20:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 7:59:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:52:06 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.

Are you suggesting that a women that goes into a strangers home, starts to have sex, and then changes he mind midway through is not somewhat responsible?

Yes, I am. If someone says stop, and you ignore them, you are showing no regard for the wishes of the other. You are violating the person when they didn't want you to. That is sexual assault and rape.

So, even though the woman freely put herself in harm's way, we just look at her and say, "you couldn't have known"?
Seriously?

I mean, do you not go to someone and say "you really shouldn't have given you bank account number for some national lottery you won from a country you've never been to".

Yes, I don't give people my bank account number. But if someone doesn't want to have sex, that is their decision, even mid sex. If the other person wants to have sex anyway and does, s/he is having non-consensual penetration, which is rape.
Missed my point completely.


Does it absolve any wrong doing that the victim has some fault? Of course not.

The victim was having sex. S/he does not "owe" the partner anything. It is her/his body.
Not sure what you are saying or even replying to here.
I stated the rapist is still at fault, regardless of any blame that is on the victim for making dangerously poor decisions.

But, your OP wants to suggest there is no blame assigned to it, in all cases. I disagree.

There is NEVER an excuse nor an invitation for rape.
Did I say there was?
I said a woman can bear some responsibility of what happens to her.
She willingly, being in control of her body, set into motion at every turn the circumstances that led to the rape, including having sex. She made poor choices, and as a result, was a victim of a crime.
But, the fact that she made those choices on her own accord, means she bears some blame for what happened. And to suggest otherwise, is just a disservice to women everywhere, since you are admitting that at no point along the way, was she ever able to prevent this foreseeable danger from occurring.

Again, because I need to be very clear for you, this is NOT always the case, as some (maybe even most) rapes are unforeseeable.
Bringing a stranger in your bed is foreseeable, not being unware a mugging rapist is around the corner.

Tell me, if instead of being raped, she was robbed in her apartment, can we blame her for that?



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????
Yes. Not every rape is clearly a case of rape. Date rape is especially murky.
Tell me, if I get my wife drunk and have sex with her, did I rape her? She might have been too drunk to consent.

If you did not have her consent to have sex, then yes you did. Also, if she were asleep, then also yes.
She's my wife, and we have sex every date night. She was not asleep, but she was very drunk. Did I rape her? She never said no, and she knew sex was going to happen when we set out on date night.



There's a reason why I don't respond to you in the forums.

Irony?
Emotion overrides reason.
No where in this or the other posts did I say the rapist is go scot-free, or is absolved in any way.
But, to suggest that a woman, who owns her body, has the double-standard to not use it wisely (i.e. put herself in harms way), is a disservice to any feminist.

------
Actually, let's cut to the chase here:
Do you believe that a victim ever has some level of blame for ANY crime?
If I had a party at my home and invited strangers and my stuff was missing, am I somewhat to blame for my being a victim?
If I go to a restaurant and get food poisoning, knowing first hand the place is not up to health code, do I deserve a pity party?

If you think the victim of any misdeed is 100% innocent in every case, and how dare anyone say "what were you thinking?!?" or "that was a stupid risk", then we have nothing to discuss.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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8/17/2014 8:31:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 8:17:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
My wife could probably be locked away for the rest of her life for rape, lol.

The authorities have been notified, and don't worry, I don't blame you one bit for staying with a sexually abusive partner for so long.
My work here is, finally, done.
Ore_Ele
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8/17/2014 8:33:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 8:31:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 8:17:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
My wife could probably be locked away for the rest of her life for rape, lol.

The authorities have been notified, and don't worry, I don't blame you one bit for staying with a sexually abusive partner for so long.

I enjoy the sexual abuse, that is why I personally install the bed restraints. It is the non-sexual abuse after I've been tied down, like fingering my belly button. I hate that and she knows it!
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/17/2014 9:07:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 8:33:26 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 8:31:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 8:17:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
My wife could probably be locked away for the rest of her life for rape, lol.

The authorities have been notified, and don't worry, I don't blame you one bit for staying with a sexually abusive partner for so long.

I enjoy the sexual abuse, that is why I personally install the bed restraints. It is the non-sexual abuse after I've been tied down, like fingering my belly button. I hate that and she knows it!

Dude, you know the difference. This is not something to joke about.
kbub
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8/17/2014 9:27:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 8:20:43 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:59:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:52:06 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 7:33:54 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

MURKY??????? Yeah, pretty much asking for it by drinking.

Look, even if she/he is naked with a d*ck in her/him, if s/he says "stop," that means stop. Her/his partner does not have any authority over the others' body. No means no. End of story.

Are you suggesting that a women that goes into a strangers home, starts to have sex, and then changes he mind midway through is not somewhat responsible?

Yes, I am. If someone says stop, and you ignore them, you are showing no regard for the wishes of the other. You are violating the person when they didn't want you to. That is sexual assault and rape.

So, even though the woman freely put herself in harm's way, we just look at her and say, "you couldn't have known"?
Seriously?

I mean, do you not go to someone and say "you really shouldn't have given you bank account number for some national lottery you won from a country you've never been to".

Yes, I don't give people my bank account number. But if someone doesn't want to have sex, that is their decision, even mid sex. If the other person wants to have sex anyway and does, s/he is having non-consensual penetration, which is rape.
Missed my point completely.


Does it absolve any wrong doing that the victim has some fault? Of course not.

The victim was having sex. S/he does not "owe" the partner anything. It is her/his body.
Not sure what you are saying or even replying to here.
I stated the rapist is still at fault, regardless of any blame that is on the victim for making dangerously poor decisions.

But, your OP wants to suggest there is no blame assigned to it, in all cases. I disagree.

There is NEVER an excuse nor an invitation for rape.
Did I say there was?
I said a woman can bear some responsibility of what happens to her.
She willingly, being in control of her body, set into motion at every turn the circumstances that led to the rape, including having sex. She made poor choices, and as a result, was a victim of a crime.
But, the fact that she made those choices on her own accord, means she bears some blame for what happened. And to suggest otherwise, is just a disservice to women everywhere, since you are admitting that at no point along the way, was she ever able to prevent this foreseeable danger from occurring.

Again, because I need to be very clear for you, this is NOT always the case, as some (maybe even most) rapes are unforeseeable.
Bringing a stranger in your bed is foreseeable, not being unware a mugging rapist is around the corner.

Tell me, if instead of being raped, she was robbed in her apartment, can we blame her for that?



More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.

THE QUESTIONABLE ONES???????
Yes. Not every rape is clearly a case of rape. Date rape is especially murky.
Tell me, if I get my wife drunk and have sex with her, did I rape her? She might have been too drunk to consent.

If you did not have her consent to have sex, then yes you did. Also, if she were asleep, then also yes.
She's my wife, and we have sex every date night. She was not asleep, but she was very drunk. Did I rape her? She never said no, and she knew sex was going to happen when we set out on date night.



There's a reason why I don't respond to you in the forums.

Irony?
Emotion overrides reason.
No where in this or the other posts did I say the rapist is go scot-free, or is absolved in any way.
But, to suggest that a woman, who owns her body, has the double-standard to not use it wisely (i.e. put herself in harms way), is a disservice to any feminist.


------
Actually, let's cut to the chase here:
Do you believe that a victim ever has some level of blame for ANY crime?
If I had a party at my home and invited strangers and my stuff was missing, am I somewhat to blame for my being a victim?
If I go to a restaurant and get food poisoning, knowing first hand the place is not up to health code, do I deserve a pity party?

If you think the victim of any misdeed is 100% innocent in every case, and how dare anyone say "what were you thinking?!?" or "that was a stupid risk", then we have nothing to discuss.

Dude, no one is 100% innocent. However, the victim is always 100% not responsible for the crime of rape. Listen, I don't know if I'm helping or hurting the cause by responding. I think you're already deciding on disagreeing with me. I hope you hear this elsewhere, for women or men you trust. Please promise me you'll be conscious of consent, always. I'm worried you'll commit rape.
Khaos_Mage
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8/17/2014 9:38:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 9:27:38 PM, kbub wrote:

Dude, no one is 100% innocent. However, the victim is always 100% not responsible for the crime of rape. Listen, I don't know if I'm helping or hurting the cause by responding. I think you're already deciding on disagreeing with me. I hope you hear this elsewhere, for women or men you trust. Please promise me you'll be conscious of consent, always. I'm worried you'll commit rape.

LOL
You have to have sex to commit rape.
I don't know why you think so poor of me, but if it puts your mind at ease, I've never acted without consent.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
My work here is, finally, done.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/18/2014 1:41:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 5:25:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:43:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:36:27 PM, kbub wrote:
At 8/17/2014 4:07:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'd love to live in a culture where we understand that just because you were the victim of something doesn't mean that you have absolutely nothing to do with what happened to you.

I love how it looked like you started to agree, and then said the exact opposite. Surprise attack! :P

Seriously, though, it's messed up that we have a blame-the-victim attitude when it comes to rape. I did like the video, though.

Let's take this away from rape and the high emotion of it for just a moment and look at a different crime that is still undoubtedly a crime, but one that both sides can look at without being effected by emotion. Namely car theft.

If a person leaves their car unlocked, with the door open and with the keys in the ignition and it somehow gets stolen, is it not justified to say that maybe they could have taken some better steps to have prevented the car theft? That is not to say that the thief should not be punished or even receive a smidgen less of a punishment for what they did.

However, rationally, we have to understand that we live in an imperfect world and there are bad things that happen and that we should take actions to minimize the risk as much as is rational (that level would be determined by weighing the risk vs the cost).

Very few are saying that the rapist is fine with engaging in rape because of XYZ.

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.

I am not saying that they don't exist, nor have I.

I know! I didn't say you did--from a rhetorical standpoint, though, I think I was trying to get across that very few is, perhaps, connotatively lowblling it. I've heard it before--particularly in a college town.

I even specifically went and reworded my last post to avoid anyone making that claim. There are people that think that way, but to imply that the entire culture thinks that way is to imply that I think that way, that my family think that way, my coworkers and neighbors and our society in general. What you really find is that it is an extremely small, extremely vocal minority that has good internet access (or shock jocks that are being asshats for ratings)

The thing is it's also, sometimes, the authority figures who are supposed to be enforcing the law. Call it cynicism, perhaps, on their part, but I've known it to happen. Thankfully, it's less common these days. Not that there aren't, really, a host of problems with the way our society deals with issues involving sex.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

It is not meant to be an absolute analogy with every phrase being code for something with rape. It is an example of where someone can take actions to reduce risk of becoming a victim, but they don't. I used a similar example with Royal way back when of robbing a house. If you have no alarm, leave the front door unlocked and post a sign that says "gone on vacation, won't be back until 9/1/2014 and you get robbed, you can reasonably say that some responsibility lies with you.

I disagree in the moral sense. From a practical standpoint the argument could be made. But, like in the story of the scorpion and the frog, the frog may have known the scorpion was a douche, but it's not the frog's fault for the scorpion's douchery.

More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.

There are always steps that could have been taken. If I'm walking down the street, and I get mugged, I could have perhaps been carrying a gun and prevented the robbery, but I don't think I have any culpability for "failing" to do that...

As I said, it depends on the rational equation for it. Action X reduces the risk by Xr% and costs Xc (be that in time or money or stress or reduced happiness or whatever the costs are). You weigh the balance to find if Action X is reasonable or not. You cannot engage in hindsight (if I walked down that alley rather than this alley) unless it is something that could have legitimately been foreseen.

Getting mugged in a city can trivially be argued to be something that should "legitimately be foreseen" though. We can always play that sort of game, since it's always possible to argue they "should have seen it coming". I find that sort of thing problematic.
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bladerunner060
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8/18/2014 1:48:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 6:57:47 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/17/2014 5:10:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

There really are people who think that the rapist is not at fault if the woman was "asking for it", though. These people are terrible, but they exist.
True, but they can hide behind all the other people doing their jobs (cops, defense lawyers), because they receive so much flack for it.

Also, I'm not sure what you're analogizing with the "keys in the ignition"; they don't seem similar. What is the equivalent of the "keys in the ignition", and how common do you think it is?

I'd say the majority of date rape would be analygous, and those are the hardest to prove.
A women is raped in the alley on her way home with torn dress and black eye. Yeah, that is clearly rape.
A women goes into a secluded area by choice under the affects of alcohol. Much more murky. (think "going upstairs for coffee" or any frat party where beds can be used)

More analogous to me would seem to be carjacking, and if someone puts blame on you for driving in a "bad neighborhood", even though that's where you have to drive through to get to your destination, I would tell them they were being unfair.
I think this analogy works for clearly defined rape. Not questionable ones.


There are always steps that could have been taken. If I'm walking down the street, and I get mugged, I could have perhaps been carrying a gun and prevented the robbery, but I don't think I have any culpability for "failing" to do that...
I scrutinize date rape a lot more than B&E or mugging type rapes, unless they were drugged.

There is a difference between that which can be proven, and that which is true. The issue is when there's a presumption that the alleged victim is likely at fault for the issue.

If I walked up to a cop and pointed at someone, and said the person just punched me in the gut and kicked me when I fell, even though there isn't bruising, the cop would likely take me at least generally seriously--there would be a presupposition that I'm making the complaint honestly. In rape cases, there is often a sort of "knee-jerk" presumption of lying. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone's honest, of course. But, it's a problem that it's treated differently, and that difference affects the real victims--granted, it may be hard to know which ones are the real victims, versus the ones who are not, due to the nature of the circumstances, but I find it troubling to err on the side of assuming they aren't "really" victims.

To be clear, I'm not really alleging that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that's what some people do, indeed, do. For example, despite (I'm pretty sure) it being pretty well recognized that dress doesn't affect the likelihood of being assaulted, it seems a lot of people, to my experience, want to pretend it does, and immediately ask "what was she/were you wearing?"
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Zylorarchy
Posts: 209
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8/18/2014 2:59:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There's a difference between the victim being blameworthy and deserving. Obviously (unlike some people), no matter how much you put yourself at risk, I do not believe you should therefore, somehow, deserve your fate.

It was an interesting example about the car being left unlocked, or the house door left open. But that cannot really be compared to rape. For example, there is no actual benefit to the victim from leaving the car or house unlocked. However, what some would say is women's fault is when they dress in a "provocative" manner. I disagree with this concept entirely. A man who rapes a woman (obviously there is vise verse and homosexual rape, but for the purposes of this, we'll talk about men raping women), is clearly 100% blameworthy no matter how "provocatively" a woman dresses. A woman should be able to dress how she likes, no matter what, and it is never how fault that another man shows a simple lack of self-restraint due to the way she dresses. Refergin to my earlier point, there is no benefit for a car or house unlocked. but a woman may want to dress in a way she does because it benefits her. Why should she have to curtail this desire or be blamed because a man has no self-restraint. He is 100% to blame, she is not.

There is of course the other situation where a woman goes to a "dangerous" area. But I ask you this, say a man went to the same area and was murdered. Is it his fault that he was murdered? Is he somehow to blame for his own death just because he went to a particular area? I can why you can easily say yes, but the example is given because in that situation, society does not instantly go "Oh well it was his fault".

If anyone, goes to a dangerous area and become a victim of a crime. In reality you are seen as being partially to blame. But this is the problem. For some reason people think you are wholly to blame and then deserve to be a victim. This is completely wrong. Yes you are at fault for creating the risk, but the crime itself, isn't your fault at all. To use an example, if I walk my dog around an area where another dog walker takes his dog. And his dog is extremely hostile. His dog breaks free of his owner and seriously injures my dog. Yes you can argue I am blameworthy for taking the risk but come on, who is really to blame here? The other dog owner (and the dog itself). So who is really to blame in a rape? The rapist.
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kbub
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8/18/2014 11:56:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 2:59:38 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
There's a difference between the victim being blameworthy and deserving. Obviously (unlike some people), no matter how much you put yourself at risk, I do not believe you should therefore, somehow, deserve your fate.

It was an interesting example about the car being left unlocked, or the house door left open. But that cannot really be compared to rape. For example, there is no actual benefit to the victim from leaving the car or house unlocked. However, what some would say is women's fault is when they dress in a "provocative" manner. I disagree with this concept entirely. A man who rapes a woman (obviously there is vise verse and homosexual rape, but for the purposes of this, we'll talk about men raping women), is clearly 100% blameworthy no matter how "provocatively" a woman dresses. A woman should be able to dress how she likes, no matter what, and it is never how fault that another man shows a simple lack of self-restraint due to the way she dresses. Refergin to my earlier point, there is no benefit for a car or house unlocked. but a woman may want to dress in a way she does because it benefits her. Why should she have to curtail this desire or be blamed because a man has no self-restraint. He is 100% to blame, she is not.

There is of course the other situation where a woman goes to a "dangerous" area. But I ask you this, say a man went to the same area and was murdered. Is it his fault that he was murdered? Is he somehow to blame for his own death just because he went to a particular area? I can why you can easily say yes, but the example is given because in that situation, society does not instantly go "Oh well it was his fault".

If anyone, goes to a dangerous area and become a victim of a crime. In reality you are seen as being partially to blame. But this is the problem. For some reason people think you are wholly to blame and then deserve to be a victim. This is completely wrong. Yes you are at fault for creating the risk, but the crime itself, isn't your fault at all. To use an example, if I walk my dog around an area where another dog walker takes his dog. And his dog is extremely hostile. His dog breaks free of his owner and seriously injures my dog. Yes you can argue I am blameworthy for taking the risk but come on, who is really to blame here? The other dog owner (and the dog itself). So who is really to blame in a rape? The rapist.

Agree completely. Don't forget though that people live in these "dangerous areas." Whereas privileged people can get by avoiding those bad neighborhoods, everyone else in't so lucky. That being said, great post! I'm friending you.
Khaos_Mage
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8/18/2014 2:05:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 2:59:38 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
There's a difference between the victim being blameworthy and deserving. Obviously (unlike some people), no matter how much you put yourself at risk, I do not believe you should therefore, somehow, deserve your fate.


It was an interesting example about the car being left unlocked, or the house door left open. But that cannot really be compared to rape. For example, there is no actual benefit to the victim from leaving the car or house unlocked. However, what some would say is women's fault is when they dress in a "provocative" manner. I disagree with this concept entirely. A man who rapes a woman (obviously there is vise verse and homosexual rape, but for the purposes of this, we'll talk about men raping women), is clearly 100% blameworthy no matter how "provocatively" a woman dresses. A woman should be able to dress how she likes, no matter what, and it is never how fault that another man shows a simple lack of self-restraint due to the way she dresses. Refergin to my earlier point, there is no benefit for a car or house unlocked. but a woman may want to dress in a way she does because it benefits her. Why should she have to curtail this desire or be blamed because a man has no self-restraint. He is 100% to blame, she is not.

What is the benefit of a woman dressing as she pleases, exactly? Attention, so it is a double edged sword.

However, to be honest, that argument of provocatively dressed woman being raped is a silly argument, unless there are facts to support it.
I'd assume men will rape anyone they can, if they are so inclined.

Stalker/rapists, I don't think the clothes matter.
Opportunist rapists take what they can get.
So, I'm not sure where this idea comes from that clothes get women raped more often....except maybe at parties (drugged and raped).

Are there any studies that show clothes are a factor?

There is of course the other situation where a woman goes to a "dangerous" area. But I ask you this, say a man went to the same area and was murdered. Is it his fault that he was murdered? Is he somehow to blame for his own death just because he went to a particular area? I can why you can easily say yes, but the example is given because in that situation, society does not instantly go "Oh well it was his fault".

I don't understand this argument at all, either.
Wrong place at wrong time can't be helped or foreseen.

If anyone, goes to a dangerous area and become a victim of a crime. In reality you are seen as being partially to blame. But this is the problem. For some reason people think you are wholly to blame and then deserve to be a victim. This is completely wrong. Yes you are at fault for creating the risk, but the crime itself, isn't your fault at all. To use an example, if I walk my dog around an area where another dog walker takes his dog. And his dog is extremely hostile. His dog breaks free of his owner and seriously injures my dog. Yes you can argue I am blameworthy for taking the risk but come on, who is really to blame here? The other dog owner (and the dog itself). So who is really to blame in a rape? The rapist.

I'll ask you the same question:
Do you hold people accountable for their decision if those decision lead to harm? At what point do you say "hey, that was dangerous, what were you expecting"?

Again, this is not to say they deserved to be raped, but to say they aren't to be blamed for their decisions in every case (as I said, date rape seems to be the only category where blame is really attributable, and not even always) is just illogical.

I mean, if I have too much to drink, and I get into an accident because someone ran a red light, do you feel I am partly to blame for what happened to me? Of course you do.
So, tell me why a woman who has too much to drink, and makes a series of poor decisions, is not somewhat to blame for what happens to her?

This is what I take issue with.
I do not take issue in the slightest with her being drugged or mugged, as that is wrong place at wrong time.
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Khaos_Mage
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8/18/2014 2:32:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Actually, the drunk driving example is a perfect analogy, since the drunk driver, even though he didn't do anything to cause the accident and injury to himself, is still going to jail.
Ultimate blaming the victim, there.

Or, letting your child play outside in the street. No harm, yet charging me with a crime for having too much to drink and making poor choices.

The fact is, people blame the victim, sometimes to serious consequences. It is not to suggest the aggressor should be absolved of his crime, but he do expect people to make wise decisions, and when they don't, they are not given a free pass from blame.
My work here is, finally, done.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/18/2014 2:53:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 3:56:50 PM, kbub wrote:
Do you think we can make a culture that stops blaming the rape victim, and campaigns against the potential rapist instead? I'm optimistic.

Next time someone asks "what were you wearing," maybe show them this clip.

http://www.upworthy.com...

The Fool: I think you may have a good point, but it is fair that we be clear on what is meant by rape here.

By rape, do you mean having sex with somebody without their verbal consent?
Or perhaps something a little different?

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/18/2014 7:36:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 2:53:40 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/17/2014 3:56:50 PM, kbub wrote:
Do you think we can make a culture that stops blaming the rape victim, and campaigns against the potential rapist instead? I'm optimistic.

Next time someone asks "what were you wearing," maybe show them this clip.

http://www.upworthy.com...


The Fool: I think you may have a good point, but it is fair that we be clear on what is meant by rape here.

By rape, do you mean having sex with somebody without their verbal consent?
Or perhaps something a little different?


Against The Ideologist

Yeah, that's it.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/18/2014 7:57:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 2:59:38 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
There's a difference between the victim being blameworthy and deserving. Obviously (unlike some people), no matter how much you put yourself at risk, I do not believe you should therefore, somehow, deserve your fate.

It was an interesting example about the car being left unlocked, or the house door left open. But that cannot really be compared to rape. For example, there is no actual benefit to the victim from leaving the car or house unlocked. However, what some would say is women's fault is when they dress in a "provocative" manner. I disagree with this concept entirely. A man who rapes a woman (obviously there is vise verse and homosexual rape, but for the purposes of this, we'll talk about men raping women), is clearly 100% blameworthy no matter how "provocatively" a woman dresses. A woman should be able to dress how she likes, no matter what, and it is never how fault that another man shows a simple lack of self-restraint due to the way she dresses. Refergin to my earlier point, there is no benefit for a car or house unlocked. but a woman may want to dress in a way she does because it benefits her. Why should she have to curtail this desire or be blamed because a man has no self-restraint. He is 100% to blame, she is not.

There is of course the other situation where a woman goes to a "dangerous" area. But I ask you this, say a man went to the same area and was murdered. Is it his fault that he was murdered? Is he somehow to blame for his own death just because he went to a particular area? I can why you can easily say yes, but the example is given because in that situation, society does not instantly go "Oh well it was his fault".

If anyone, goes to a dangerous area and become a victim of a crime. In reality you are seen as being partially to blame. But this is the problem. For some reason people think you are wholly to blame and then deserve to be a victim. This is completely wrong. Yes you are at fault for creating the risk, but the crime itself, isn't your fault at all. To use an example, if I walk my dog around an area where another dog walker takes his dog. And his dog is extremely hostile. His dog breaks free of his owner and seriously injures my dog. Yes you can argue I am blameworthy for taking the risk but come on, who is really to blame here? The other dog owner (and the dog itself). So who is really to blame in a rape? The rapist.

Why should women be able to dress any way they want? You don't see men walking around in bikinis. I know that the answer is pretty obvious, but answer it anyway.
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