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Poet responds to JZ. Must See!

The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/23/2014 5:01:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:24:06 PM, kbub wrote:
It's about problems in the music industry.

The Fool: Music is an art through which we express how we feel and think, but what we feel and think will not always be politically correct. If we are not free to express ourselves in art, then we are not free at all.

Against The Ideologist

Free yourself from mental slavery.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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8/24/2014 2:12:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 5:01:53 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:24:06 PM, kbub wrote:
It's about problems in the music industry.

The Fool: Music is an art through which we express how we feel and think, but what we feel and think will not always be politically correct. If we are not free to express ourselves in art, then we are not free at all.

Against The Ideologist

Free yourself from mental slavery.


I don't think the poet was talking about making a law that forbids people from saying bad things in music.

I think she meant that such music should not be written (not that it should be forbidden).

It's appropriate that you quote Bob Marley. In my opinion, I think the mental slavery that he was discussing is similar to the kind the poet mentioned--the slavery of a culture pushing oppressive stigma onto the disenfranchised.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/24/2014 1:55:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Shish-Kbub
Part 1
At 8/22/2014 1:24:06 PM, kbub wrote:
It's about problems in the music industry.

The Fool: Music is an art through which we express how we feel and think, but what we feel and think will not always be politically correct. If we are not free to express ourselves in art, then we are not free at all.

Against The Ideologist

Free yourself from mental slavery.



Kbub: I don't think the poet was talking about making a law that forbids people from saying bad things in music.

The Fool: I"m not sure about how laws, and forbidding, comes into the picture. Are you alluding, that I"ve claim this in my response?

Also, politically correct is not necessarily good or bad but what is claimed to be proper. Are you making a moral claim?

As for the poet, it was hardly creative, or original, but more of the same parroted lame mundane social shaming and "men" hating claims, we so often see in feminism. See, any Fool can create such poetry.

Moreover, she"s pretty much shaming Beyonc" who is a not only a feminist but a free intelligent and independent woman for making money and art the way she chooses to. Stop trying to control people.

The term "bitches", just like "Nigga" is not simply used as a bad term, but as a term of endearment with in urban populations. Stop please.

Kbub: I think she meant that such music should not be written (not that it should be forbidden).

The Fool: I think "that" doesn"t make any sense, since well, if we are forbidden to even write music, then it follows that music is forbidden altogether.

Or perhaps you meant, she meant something else?

Regardless, we should be free to say and write what we want, just as you are free, to not listen to it.

If we let people speak, then we know who is who, who is our allies and who is our enemies, and who's beliefs should be challenged and when ours have been challenged. Controlling or censoring people's voices, forces them to go undercover, but not abandon them, thus enabling them to boil and polarize to unstable catastrophic extremes which can eventually explode more harmfully, into society.

Kbub: It's appropriate that you quote Bob Marley.

The Fool: Yes because black expression through music used to be somewhat controversial and forbidden. It still is, but it used to be, as well.

Kbub: In my opinion, I think the mental slavery that he was discussing is similar to the kind the poet mentioned--the slavery of a culture pushing oppressive stigma onto the disenfranchised.

The Fool: I don"t think he spoke specifically about the stigma feminist put on "men", or "woman" who oppose them, but he was quite clear on the mental slavery of such ideologies.

Against The Ideology

We free spirits!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
kbub
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8/24/2014 2:40:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 1:55:53 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Shish-Kbub
Part 1
At 8/22/2014 1:24:06 PM, kbub wrote:
It's about problems in the music industry.

The Fool: Music is an art through which we express how we feel and think, but what we feel and think will not always be politically correct. If we are not free to express ourselves in art, then we are not free at all.

Against The Ideologist

Free yourself from mental slavery.



Kbub: I don't think the poet was talking about making a law that forbids people from saying bad things in music.

The Fool: I"m not sure about how laws, and forbidding, comes into the picture. Are you alluding, that I"ve claim this in my response?

I probably misunderstood. I just meant that I don't think freedom is being threatened in the video. I think she is just making a moral claim about the music--that it does bad things to the cultures that listen to them.


Also, politically correct is not necessarily good or bad but what is claimed to be proper. Are you making a moral claim?

Yes, I think she is making a moral claim, and I agree with her. I never liked the term "politically correct," because sometimes it has nothing to do with politics. In this case, I think she is asking people to change how the listen to and make music. I really like her line--"/...turn up the volume/and turn down the noise."


As for the poet, it was hardly creative, or original, but more of the same parroted lame mundane social shaming and "men" hating claims, we so often see in feminism. See, any Fool can create such poetry.

Sorry you didn't like it. I did, but I suppose there's no way to argue that. I don't remember her saying that she hated men. I believe that she was calling for better role models for men and women in the music industry.


Moreover, she"s pretty much shaming Beyonc" who is a not only a feminist but a free intelligent and independent woman for making money and art the way she chooses to. Stop trying to control people.

Yes, I admit that the Beyonce thing is debatable, though we might have different ideas on why that's the case. I felt like Beyonce does an excellent job fighting the virgin myth--that women are pure, sex-haters or else sluts. I think also she attempts to embrace and transcend her racial category by wearing animal patterns, but I can see arguments against that.


The term "bitches", just like "Nigga" is not simply used as a bad term, but as a term of endearment with in urban populations. Stop please.

I think that in the club scenario the poet was talking about, there was that context of using the word "bitch" in a way that is degrading, and not as a term of endearment.

Are you asking me to stop?


Kbub: I think she meant that such music should not be written (not that it should be forbidden).

I think that's true. She's definitely asking for a change in the music/consumer industry.


The Fool: I think "that" doesn"t make any sense, since well, if we are forbidden to even write music, then it follows that music is forbidden altogether.

I think that she's asking musicians to choose to write more ethical music based on the merits of doing so. I think she's also raising awareness for the way music impacts our young men and women.

Regardless, we should be free to say and write what we want, just as you are free, to not listen to it.

I also think we should be free to choose what to listen to. And I think she is making a case that we should take ethics into account for our choices.


If we let people speak, then we know who is who, who is our allies and who is our enemies, and who's beliefs should be challenged and when ours have been challenged. Controlling or censoring people's voices, forces them to go undercover, but not abandon them, thus enabling them to boil and polarize to unstable catastrophic extremes which can eventually explode more harmfully, into society.

I'm not sure that anyone is being forced underground. And I'd rather people be helpful to society, and not harmful. I think that a step in that direction is to acknowledge the effects of the music industry.

I think that even as important as distinguishing between friend and foe is, what is more important is fighting the racism and sexism in our cultures. Let us try to find ways to do that, so that we don't merely talk about problems in the world, but also take steps to change them.


Kbub: It's appropriate that you quote Bob Marley.

The Fool: Yes because black expression through music used to be somewhat controversial and forbidden. It still is, but it used to be, as well.

Are you suggesting that sexism is inherent in black culture?


Kbub: In my opinion, I think the mental slavery that he was discussing is similar to the kind the poet mentioned--the slavery of a culture pushing oppressive stigma onto the disenfranchised.

The Fool: I don"t think he spoke specifically about the stigma feminist put on "men", or "woman" who oppose them, but he was quite clear on the mental slavery of such ideologies.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. I think the poet clearly identified ways that music is enabling our mental slavery, so I'm not sure where your villianization of the poet is coming from.

Against The Ideology

We free spirits!
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/24/2014 10:42:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Shish-Kbub
Part 2
http://www.debate.org...
Kbub: I don't think the poet was talking about making a law that forbids people from saying bad things in music.

The Fool: I"m not sure about how laws, and forbidding, comes into the picture. Are you alluding, that I"ve claim this in my response?

Kbub: I probably misunderstood.

The Fool: That"s fine, but please be more careful next time. I"ve been letting a lot slide already.

Kbub: I just meant that I don't think freedom is being threatened in the video.

The Fool: What you believe and feel is very important, but factual claims which go beyond your inner beliefs and feelings, must be supported by something else to be valid arguments. I only gave two sentences, one which I"m sure you agree with, and the second which is a conditional claim.

1. "[IF] we are not free to express ourselves in art, [then] we are not free at all."

Kbub: I think she is just making a moral claim about the music--that it does bad things to the cultures that listen to them.

The Fool: I think, and support my believe with the argument that, in so far, as she shaming or promoting "the silencing of what people say or think in art", she is lobbying against, he freedom of expression and speech. Also, that she"s not supporting her claim, but just declaring them ideologically.

Kbub: Yes, I think she is making a moral claim, and I agree with her.

The Fool: I figured that you believed that. Nor do I expect a supporting justification, but maybe you will surprise me.

Kbub: I never liked the term "politically correct," because sometimes it has nothing to do with politics.

The Fool: You"re right, i't's common for people to mistake it with morally correct like they do with na"ve egalitarianism, or law.

Kbub: In this case, I think she is asking people to change how the listen to and make music."""

The Fool: I think many things" But "she" says and so insinuates a lot more than simply that.

Kbub: I really like her line--"/...turn up the volume/and turn down the noise."

The Fool: Yes it"s quite ironic how noise prevents and confuses clear communication.

As for the poet, it was hardly creative, or original, but more of the same parroted lame mundane social shaming and "men" hating claims, we so often see in feminism. See, any Fool can create such poetry.

Kbub: Sorry you didn't like it.

The Fool: Really, I didn't make a subjective claim. But perhaps you thinkthat.

Kbub: I did, but I suppose there's no way to argue that.

The Fool: Well, only you can know exactly what you feel. I and others can only know what you reallythink, by what you "say" and "do"? Nonetheless, continuous compulsive non-falsifiable claims which seem to assume some relation but never actually engage with what what I am saying does suggest deception.

I supported my claims about the poetry:
"1. by showing how simple the rhyme scheme was.
"2. by pointing out, that it"s the same tired and exhausted feminist propaganda we have been hearing for a long time now.
"3. I am even providing this link to show you that that the line you like, is as much a rip off as the rest.

":Kbub: I really like her line--"/...turn up the volume/and turn down the noise"
http://youtu.be...

Kbub: I don't remember her saying that she hated men.

The Fool: I don't either. I am claiming that there is a general dis-taste towards men in her message, that even you yourself, are capitalizing on. And I will summarize that support near the end of my complete response.

Kbub: I believe that she was calling for better role models for men and women in the music industry.

The Fool: I believe many things and support them. Besides their are lots of role models in the music industry, and lots who are not. Nobody "owes you" anything.

Moreover, she"s pretty much shaming Beyonc" who is a not only a feminist but a free intelligent and independent woman for making money and art the way she chooses to. Stop trying to control people.

Kbub: Yes, I admit that the Beyonce thing is debatable, though we might have different ideas on why that's the case.

The Fool: The only thing debatable, is whether or not any of your ideas are supported. What is there to debate about?
Many women by choice use their sexuality to empower themselves. No one is forced to be in a music video. In fact many woman work hard to even make it in, and are proud of it, and even brag about it.

Why can"t such feminist just respect a woman"s choice to do that, without shaming or assuming that they"re stupid, or suffer from internalized misogyny, from some secret patriarchal conspiracy, only true feminist "really" know about.

Perhaps because it proves the feminist assumption "that women are simply victims of objectification, by men", is absolutely, and unquestionably FALSE!
<(86)
At least perhaps.

Kbub: I felt like Beyonce does an excellent job fighting the virgin myth--that women are pure, sex-haters or else sluts.

The Fool: I feel that you are confident enough fight for your convictions, and accusations. So can you provide any support, any whatsoever, that there is at least one person, who has ever existed, from the beginning of time and/or now, or will in the future, who actually believes "that woman are pure, sex-haters or else sluts."?

What techniques do you think Beyonc" uses to fight "The virgin myth"?
<(8D)

My counter-argument is that you are entertaining a purely "feminist myth", created by feminist to stigmatize stupidity on those stubborn to silly self-serving ideology, and my support so far is simply the extreme stifling absurdity of such a notion in-itself.

Against The Ideology

Or at least I believe that..
<(8D)

To be continued..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/25/2014 5:19:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Shish-Kbub
Part 3

Kbub: I think also she attempts to embrace and transcend her racial category by wearing animal patterns, but I can see arguments against that.

The Fool: no comment..
<(XD)

The term "bitches", just like "Nigga" is not simply used as a bad term, but as a term of endearment with in urban populations. Stop please.

Kbub: I think that in the club scenario the poet was talking about, there was that context of using the word "bitch" in a way that is degrading, and not as a term of endearment.

The Fool: That"s nice, but:
1. I just said, "is not simply used as a bad term," in the very sentence your pretending to be responding to.
2.The very same urban culture men are called bitches to, it is true.
3.The term "bitch" was not in the same verse as the club scenario, nore specific to it. And YOU KNEW IT!
4.The Poem preaches "feminist ideology" and so does not resonate well with nonbelievers.

In other words, it"s like preaching the Bible to an atheist.

Tbub: I think she meant that such music should not be written (not that it should be forbidden).

The Fool: I think "that" doesn"t make any sense, since well, if we are forbidden to even write music, then it follows that music is forbidden altogether.

Tbub(to self): I think that's true. She's definitely asking for a change in the music/consumer industry.

The Fool: That"s nice. I think you are now backtracking and manipulating your claims as you go along, and I have evidence.
"I think she meant that such music should not be written (not that it should be forbidden). " Is not the same as. "She's definitely asking for a change in the music/consumer industry." This is not your first time doing that.

And yes, I am also aware that you"re using "I think", to avoid fallibility, on any factual claims but that very fact is evidence of insincerity, and insinuation.
<(8D)
And that"s nice.

:Argument for freedom of expression
(Conclusion)
Regardless, we should be free to say and write what we want, just as you are free, to not listen to it.
(Support)
If we let people speak, then we know who is who, who is our allies and who is our enemies, and who's beliefs should be challenged and when ours have been challenged. Controlling or censoring people's voices, forces them to go undercover, but not abandon them, thus enabling them to boil and polarize to unstable catastrophic extremes which can eventually explode more harmfully, into society.

Tbub: I also think we should be free to choose what to listen to.

The Fool: That"s nice.

Tbub: And I think she is making a case that we should take ethics into account for our choices.

The Fool: That"s nice. Do you have a supporting argument?

Tbub: I'm not sure that anyone is being forced underground.

The Fool: That"s nice.

Tbub: And I'd rather people be helpful to society, and not harmful.

The Fool: That"s nice. But actions speak louder than words, and your hate towards men is harmful.

Tbub: I think that a step in that direction is to acknowledge the effects of the music industry.

The Fool: That"s nice, but I have good reason to believe you your are using the music industry as a decoy to target men, and this is the evidence:

Evidence of sexism in the poem:
1.The poem only shames what men say in music.
2.It uses hip-hop genre, to generalize onto the music industry.
3.It omits that women do the same, in that very same music.
4.She assumes that Beyonc", doesn"t freely use her body for financial gain, but is forced to do it by men.
5.It omits of any objectification of men in music.
6.It only referred to "black slavery", in regards to women, not in regards to racism, as though men were not slaves.

It goes further than music and words, to demonizes men in every domain of life:
7.It asserts that if women are smart, and/or funny, men don"t like them.
8.It asserts that woman are absolutely helpless victims, and that men simply go around beating up woman who don"t love them.
9.It asserts that,men do not love their mothers or daughters, but simply use them for parts.
10.It asserts that "Good music", is where men hide to beat up women inside. (Is that really why men make music?)
11.It asserts that being called a name, "bitch", is somehow equatable to being beaten and raped. (Better tell that to woman)

Even when Beyonc" barely takes blame you claim it"s debatable, and give a nonsense excuses: "I think also she attempts to embrace and transcend her racial category by wearing animal patterns" regardless of any relevant relation to race.

Tbub: I think that even as important as distinguishing between friend and foe is, what is more important is fighting the racism and sexism in our cultures.

The Fool: That"s nice, but the gig is up, my friend. You may fool some people some sometimes"

Against The Ideologist

And now we see the light..
<(8D)

To be continued..And that"s nice.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL