Total Posts:232|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

But what about men?! Is feminism sexist?!

kbub
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 9:50:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.



I wasn't especially impressed. Feminism is the advocating for equal rights for women; no more. It cannot stray away from this without blurring lines with other things, such as mascul[in]ism. Now, people themselves can advocate both, but feminism says nothing about stereotypes towards men, as the lady claimed.

It's also important to note that every advertisement towards men and women cuts both ways. Aye, it will stereotype one gender, but it will also stereotype t'other by assuming that people belonging to the advertised-to gender will be, erm, base enough to allow it to affect them to such a degree as to buy the product.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 10:05:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 9:50:53 AM, MysticEgg wrote:
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.



I wasn't especially impressed. Feminism is the advocating for equal rights for women; no more. It cannot stray away from this without blurring lines with other things, such as mascul[in]ism. Now, people themselves can advocate both, but feminism says nothing about stereotypes towards men, as the lady claimed.

Feminism actually does talk about stereotypes towards men. Sometimes the word "femin" ism throws people off, but try to focus on what feminism actually advocates. Feminism is a good choice for men and women.


It's also important to note that every advertisement towards men and women cuts both ways. Aye, it will stereotype one gender, but it will also stereotype t'other by assuming that people belonging to the advertised-to gender will be, erm, base enough to allow it to affect them to such a degree as to buy the product.

I couldn't agree more. It's like the advertisements assume that men are sex-starved animals with no conscious or sensitivity. Or aggressive, or don't care about consent, etc.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 11:14:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Smh. Modern feminism is sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

A basic step in gaining a sense of individuality is to recognize biological differences and that people are not born the same. If some people are born with wings, the only way to establish equality is to clip the wings, or find a method to make all people born with wings.
To sum it up: In order to gain absolute equality, we have to cripple the athlete, scar the beautiful, and dumb down the intelligent.

We can't blame everything on society, there can be biological and individual (if you believe in free will) variables as well.

http://www.theguardian.com...

She also mentioned that women earn less. Well, is it because there are laws that says women earn less in the same job (implied), or due to other factors? If other factors are included, then by all means women are economically equal in that aspect.

Politically, is there a law that says women must have less seats than men? You make it seems like you want to conscript people to work in something they might not want in order to have a 1:1 ratio between men and women in different occupations.

Then there is rape culture, victim blaming, women can't walk to their car safely. *face palm*

http://i.ytimg.com...

When being mugged, how effective is it to indignantly point out to the mugger that you refuse to defend yourself because he should not be mugging you in the first place. Is this a mugging culture?
And since when are cultures named after criminal activities?

Criminals perform crimes based on opportunity, potential criminals see what or who would be a "good victim" and what or who would be a "bad victim". It is irrational to not take reasonable precautions. Putting your seatbelts doesn't mean that you deserve to die or have an accident. They are precautions toward things that can happen beyond our control, and not taking precautions can make them much more likely to happen.

Men were taught to treat women with respect, not see them as sexual object, and being a gentleman overall. Before modern feminists decided that it is sexist.

See the hypocricy. The main point behind rape culture is that women should not be told what to do. At the same time they tell men what to do:
http://www.ebony.com...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 12:03:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.


The Fool: For starters, men generally do not want feminist, to represent their Issues. Even many women don't even want feminist represent them.

Secondly, no buddy thinks "Feminism" is sexist simply by the name. That's a feminist created Myth, to stigmatize stupidity on those with legitimate criticism against feminism. And It's these kind of surmounting lies which make it so men "Ought" never trust feminism in regard to their concerns at all.

I will kick off, with this. And I will follow up with surmounting evidence supporting why we ought not ever trust feminism.

Against The Ideologist
Like the wind..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 12:35:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 12:03:29 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.


The Fool: For starters, men generally do not want feminist, to represent their Issues. Even many women don't even want feminist represent them.

Secondly, no buddy thinks "Feminism" is sexist simply by the name. That's a feminist created Myth, to stigmatize stupidity on those with legitimate criticism against feminism. And It's these kind of surmounting lies which make it so men "Ought" never trust feminism in regard to their concerns at all.

I will kick off, with this. And I will follow up with surmounting evidence supporting why we ought not ever trust feminism.

Against The Ideologist
Like the wind..



You are an ideologist, Fool. Your anti-feminism stance is ideology.

"But my ideology is justified, it is necessary, to balance out the injustice and prejudice which occurs on the opposite side!"

This is the slogan of the ideologist. Surely you must see that this is exactly what every ideologist believes. You are turning feminism and men's rights into the same thing as left wing and right wing. Just polarised nonsense.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 12:38:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 11:14:16 AM, Dragonfang wrote:

She also mentioned that women earn less. Well, is it because there are laws that says women earn less in the same job (implied), or due to other factors? If other factors are included, then by all means women are economically equal in that aspect.

Yes, this tired stat is annoying every time I hear it.
I've always wondered how much women at Wal-mart make, when the men make minimum wage....

Politically, is there a law that says women must have less seats than men? You make it seems like you want to conscript people to work in something they might not want in order to have a 1:1 ratio between men and women in different occupations.

Some people do, which is stupid.
I knew I guy who wanted a woman for mediator for a presidential debate. I asked if he would rather have a woman or the best moderator available, and he didn't answer.

Then there is rape culture, victim blaming, women can't walk to their car safely. *face palm*

I disagree with this a bit.
I think a lot of the rape culture is knee-jerk reaction based on emotion, but I do think there is a rape culture.

Keeping in mind that there are different types of rape (non-consent, withdrawn consent, legal consent issues), it does seem like there are sects of society that just don't care about getting consent, and seem to base their manliness on scoring with women every night. The whole "I do what I want" mentality.

"Blaming the victim" is, IMO, often mistaken for police doing their job. They need to know what happened and build a case. Asking what one was wearing can be vital to establishing the chain of events, especially for the defense.
Not having enough evidence to convict is not blaming the victim.
My work here is, finally, done.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 3:07:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 12:35:37 PM, sdavio wrote:

Sdavio: You are an ideologist, Fool.

The Fool: Save your preaching for the religious section, where dogmatic declarations are a daily deed.
<(89)

Sdavio: Your anti-feminism stance is ideology.

The Fool: Being a critic does not require infallible ideological presumptions. If I'm anti-anything, It simply anti-bulls-hit! I have been arguing against ideology of all forms for years. If I happen to give a refutation against a belief you have, don"t take it personal, just give support for it, and expect no less of me. Is that not fair?

Sdavio: "But my ideology is justified, it is necessary, to balance out the injustice and prejudice which occurs on the opposite side!" This is the slogan of the ideologist.

The Fool: Now aren"t you glad, that you did not dare say it's my (The Fool's) slogan?
But then again, why would you say that all?

Sdavio: Surely you must see that this is exactly what every ideologist believes.

The Fool: Perhaps, It would appear that way, to somebody who is not well practiced in Moral philosophy. Particularly somebody who is not clear,in the difference between assumptions, and justifications.

Sdavio: You are turning feminism and men's rights into the same thing as left wing and right wing.

The Fool: Are you challenging any of my claims? Have I said anything that was not true??

Perhaps you are overreacting a little bit. I'm just a fool who is flattered, by your flawed feminist like false allegations of my mystical patriarchal powers, to secretly sodomize the social system.

Sdavio: : Just polarised nonsense.

The Fool: No its not necessarily nonsense. Ideas that evade or cannot "stand up" to criticism ought to be abandoned, for better ones. I use the term ideology to refer to a belief system which is grounded in such ideas, and one who "Preaches or pushes" those ideas on others as an ideologist. In case you didn't know , this is my slogan.

Against The Ideologist

Better recognize...
<(89)

If you don't know, now you know...
<(8P)

Better call somebody.
<(8P)

Ring the alarm..
<(8P)

I think I hear the "Waahh-bulance"
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 3:58:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
Counter Video

The Fool: The views of this video do not necessary represent the fool opinions.

Against The Ideologist

But some do!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Spedman
Posts: 1
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 4:02:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Feminism is what is ruining women these days. I agree with the guy who made the response video. "Now femininity is associated with constant drunkenness, sluttyness, and just being plain unmarraigable. Feminism shouldn't be about what men and women can and can't do. It should be about how you make a beneficial impact on your society and your community through means of Feminism. Being slutty and drunk is not beneficial. Crying sexism without any merit to the accusation is not beneficial. This world isn't going to bend over backwards for you because you have petty complaints.
There are so many issues that feminists can actually fighting. Letting women take on combat roles in the armed forces is one of them. A poll showed 60% of the women in this country are against that. Fight to make sure women get to fight for their country alongside men like real equals. Society shouldn't have to cater to your every whim because you don't do a good enough job while working and not getting the same payment. If rape is such an issue why don't you try and do something about that instead of making men do something about it. The clothes that are too revealing and the slutty behavior are things that could be thrown out for starters. An maybe less consumption of alcohol would probably make you a little more alert and less vulnerable.
apb4y
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/26/2014 11:53:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are countries where women cannot speak, drive or uncover their faces in public, for fear of being stoned to death.

There are countries where it is common for the genitals of little girls to be mutilated in the name of chastity.

There are countries where little girls are married to older men who rape them.

And then there are countries where women can be as loud as they want, bare as much skin as they want, have sex with anybody they want, press charges against men who rape them, and do it all from their fancy, air-conditioned car. Virtually every feminist on the internet comes from this last category.

While I wouldn't suggest for a second that women have it as good as men, I'm of the opinion that feminists do little more than whine about political correctness, and aren't actually helping women at all.

"Those who complain most suffer least." - Aesop
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 11:55:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 11:53:39 PM, apb4y wrote:
There are countries where women cannot speak, drive or uncover their faces in public, for fear of being stoned to death.

There are countries where it is common for the genitals of little girls to be mutilated in the name of chastity.

There are countries where little girls are married to older men who rape them.

And then there are countries where women can be as loud as they want, bare as much skin as they want, have sex with anybody they want, press charges against men who rape them, and do it all from their fancy, air-conditioned car. Virtually every feminist on the internet comes from this last category.

While I wouldn't suggest for a second that women have it as good as men, I'm of the opinion that feminists do little more than whine about political correctness, and aren't actually helping women at all.

"Those who complain most suffer least." - Aesop

The Fool: Stoning people is not particular to women. It"s weird how Feminist don't mention how many other crude and harmful ways men are murdered and tortured and beheaded, their hands chopped off, castration and stoned to death, in the very same countries, that a woman would be stoned to death. It"s not particular to gender, but symptomatic of the overall ideological belief systems in that culture.

Woman in those countries and in history, have not nearly been held as responsible for the actions as men are, or we would be hearing about all the other types of cruel torture people have been through generally, which just happened to be those, which feminist give no comparative statistics for. That"s because as a culture we generally see the suffering of women and children as more pertinent than that of men. Similarly, we see and judge crimes committed by men as worse. Evidence shows that even judges give much higher sentences to male criminals as opposed to female criminals for the very same crimes. Therefore society itself is generally much more receptive and responsive to injustices towards women, as opposed to men.

This effect is then exponentiation by the fact that gender research has so far been predominantly, "feminist research", who from large amounts of data only selects information that agrees with feminist ideology, while ignoring all others.
Therefore this is not research, that men can ever trust to be impartial.
When times are bad, they"re bad for everybody. Feminism simply cherry picks information which is specific to women"s suffering.

Against The Ideologist

Aesop: Those who complain most suffer least. -

The Fool: Those who admit when they're wrong are the fastest learners.

The Black Knight: Really?

The Fool: I don't know, it just sounds like it would make sense.
<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 4:34:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 10:05:20 AM, kbub wrote:
At 8/26/2014 9:50:53 AM, MysticEgg wrote:
At 8/26/2014 12:21:11 AM, kbub wrote:
This vlogger summarizes the basic truths and myths about feminism, particularly on whether feminism is a threat to male rights.



I wasn't especially impressed. Feminism is the advocating for equal rights for women; no more. It cannot stray away from this without blurring lines with other things, such as mascul[in]ism. Now, people themselves can advocate both, but feminism says nothing about stereotypes towards men, as the lady claimed.

Feminism actually does talk about stereotypes towards men. Sometimes the word "femin" ism throws people off, but try to focus on what feminism actually advocates. Feminism is a good choice for men and women.

I have to disagree with your initial sentence. I based my comments off the definition, not the etymology. :P Regardless, I agree that advocating equal rights for women is a good stance for both men and women to take.


It's also important to note that every advertisement towards men and women cuts both ways. Aye, it will stereotype one gender, but it will also stereotype t'other by assuming that people belonging to the advertised-to gender will be, erm, base enough to allow it to affect them to such a degree as to buy the product.

I couldn't agree more. It's like the advertisements assume that men are sex-starved animals with no conscious or sensitivity. Or aggressive, or don't care about consent, etc.
apb4y
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 6:16:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 11:55:39 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:

[ something about how men are oppressed too ]

You've missed the point I was trying to make, which was that people in the Western World complain too much.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 9:44:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 6:16:08 PM, apb4y wrote:
Perhaps, Not I.
Part 1

Apb4y: You've missed the point I was trying to make, which was that people in the Western World complain too much.

Apb4y: [ something about how men are oppressed too ]

The Fool: Perhaps you missed the point of the thread.
"But what about men?! Is feminism sexist?!"

Apb4y: "[I wouldn't suggest for a second that women have it as good as men.]"

The Fool: And I was arguing that Feminism, in the real world, the one that exists, where there is also people, (not to be equivocated with the Feminist definition of the word/symbol "feminism") but in reference to the objective fallible, recognizable, and testable, as opposed to some subjective esoteric hidden and self-created construct, but rather "the extended obstensive perceivable and factual "feminism", in FACT not fiction, is inherently sexist in nature.
<(89)

Sorry for the long-winded (in metaphor, but not real wind) explanation.

Just like not real Slaves, and not actually isolatable group, but an intertwined and shared causally responsible aspect of the same group, and so perhaps more then not, not even real oppression at all.

Against The Ideologist

But who knows not nothing, about such not things? Perhaps, not I. For I know not, what is not, since what is not, does not exist.
<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 3:27:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Women are seen by most men as property. We are denied divinity by our mothers - no virgin births for us - and so we go to slandering the parents of others, that no man might be greater, and to matching our fathers, wife for wife, and we'll probably name a firstborn after him too - you know, bring him under your control... And so you get the Virgin Mary and Islam's seventy-two virgins and their polygamy and so you get a bunch of dudes getting squeamish and existentially deranged over even a whisper of feminism. And it's all retarded. I mean, what? Are women gonna up and exterminate us?
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 3:31:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I really see absolutely no downside to women being all gung-ho. Who cares? They're not gonna kill us or anything. I'm not gonna read Fool, but assume he's went on the same old rant and that he's wrong.
Morality
Posts: 135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 5:31:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 11:14:16 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Smh. Modern feminism is sad.


http://en.wikipedia.org...

A basic step in gaining a sense of individuality is to recognize biological differences and that people are not born the same. If some people are born with wings, the only way to establish equality is to clip the wings, or find a method to make all people born with wings.
To sum it up: In order to gain absolute equality, we have to cripple the athlete, scar the beautiful, and dumb down the intelligent.
From your very own source, it has citations that prove the intellectual difference between men and women is almost non-existent "We conclude that individual differences in brain volume, in both men and women, account for apparent sex differences in relative size. "

The so called "different wiring" has been most entirely dependent on individual differences, not sexual ones.

We can't blame everything on society, there can be biological and individual (if you believe in free will) variables as well.
Biological, as in genetic, sure, but individual viewpoints are absolutely linked to the society they grew up in.

http://www.theguardian.com...
And none of that implies supremacy of either sex or gender. Even then, it is still disputed and hardly proves a thing.

"But experts have questioned whether it can be that simple, arguing it is a huge leap to extrapolate from anatomical differences to try to explain behavioural variation between the sexes. Also, brain connections are not set and can change throughout life."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...


She also mentioned that women earn less. Well, is it because there are laws that says women earn less in the same job (implied), or due to other factors? If other factors are included, then by all means women are economically equal in that aspect.
There are factors outside of individual control that are not from the government. Governments are usually a representation of the society they hail from.

Politically, is there a law that says women must have less seats than men? You make it seems like you want to conscript people to work in something they might not want in order to have a 1:1 ratio between men and women in different occupations.
Women were eligible to run for office during the 1950's, yet I am fairly certain no one will say there wasn't blatant sexism then. Societal factors need to be analyzed too, not just individual preference(which mean a very small pool of those you study) and government law.

Then there is rape culture, victim blaming, women can't walk to their car safely. *face palm*
Rape culture and victim blaming are both problems. Victim blaming is not just "she could have prevented it", it is saying "she wanted it the whole time," or "she was just teasing him". There a laws in some countries(not 1st world ones) where it is flat out legal for women to be raped because they are being "sexually promiscuous", or in some of the worse ones, when they are simply looking seductive.

http://i.ytimg.com...

When being mugged, how effective is it to indignantly point out to the mugger that you refuse to defend yourself because he should not be mugging you in the first place. Is this a mugging culture?
That's not what rape culture is, but it is ridiculous to say one should not wear revealing clothes in their day to day live, just as it is ridiculous to say you shouldn't bring your wallet with you because you might get mugged.
And since when are cultures named after criminal activities?
It's named after certain values. Culture is not solely national.

Criminals perform crimes based on opportunity, potential criminals see what or who would be a "good victim" and what or who would be a "bad victim". It is irrational to not take reasonable precautions.
Key term here being "reasonable". Is it reasonable not to walk down a seedy alley when possible? Yes. Ia it reasonable to restrict what you're wearing because you might get attacked for it? No.
Putting your seatbelts doesn't mean that you deserve to die or have an accident. They are precautions toward things that can happen beyond our control, and not taking precautions can make them much more likely to happen.
Putting on your seat belt is a non-restrictive, momentary decision, unlike forcing yourself to wear conservative clothing.

Men were taught to treat women with respect, not see them as sexual object, and being a gentleman overall. Before modern feminists decided that it is sexist.
It actually is sexist, but not really against women. It was against men.

That attitude also happened to occur wit the attitude women were weak being who can't handle themselves.

See the hypocricy. The main point behind rape culture is that women should not be told what to do. At the same time they tell men what to do:
http://www.ebony.com...
Telling someone not to rape is different from telling someone to actively do something.
Osiris_Rosenthorne
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.
I probably hate everything you stand for - and on.
apb4y
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/3/2014 6:47:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM, Osiris_Rosenthorne wrote:
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.

I agree. It's one thing to advocate a gender-specific cause, but quite another to claim that yours is more important than anybody else's.
Osiris_Rosenthorne
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/3/2014 7:29:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/3/2014 6:47:57 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM, Osiris_Rosenthorne wrote:
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.

I agree. It's one thing to advocate a gender-specific cause, but quite another to claim that yours is more important than anybody else's.

It's not even placing it above anothers though. If I advocate for, let's say, equal pay for women, and only focus on the issues which effect women, without advocating also for the intrests of men, you do not advocate for equity, you advocate for power. As it leads to that imbalance, where the intrests of one then outweigh the other. What I hate about masculism and feminism is that it is, in a sense, the new class war, with both sides vilifying the other, instead of working together for equity between the two. It's like a gay man advocating for a man and a man to get married, and a lesbian advocating for a lesbian and a lesbian to get married, instead of both of them advocating for each other. It's rediculous. That's why I wish the word sexist wasn't already taken to replace misogyny and misandry, and we could use it to replace feminism and masculism.
I probably hate everything you stand for - and on.
chagak
Posts: 12
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/24/2014 2:46:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 4:02:29 PM, Spedman wrote:
Feminism is what is ruining women these days. I agree with the guy who made the response video. "Now femininity is associated with constant drunkenness, sluttyness, and just being plain unmarraigable. Feminism shouldn't be about what men and women can and can't do. It should be about how you make a beneficial impact on your society and your community through means of Feminism. Being slutty and drunk is not beneficial. Crying sexism without any merit to the accusation is not beneficial. This world isn't going to bend over backwards for you because you have petty complaints.
There are so many issues that feminists can actually fighting. Letting women take on combat roles in the armed forces is one of them. A poll showed 60% of the women in this country are against that. Fight to make sure women get to fight for their country alongside men like real equals. Society shouldn't have to cater to your every whim because you don't do a good enough job while working and not getting the same payment. If rape is such an issue why don't you try and do something about that instead of making men do something about it. The clothes that are too revealing and the slutty behavior are things that could be thrown out for starters. An maybe less consumption of alcohol would probably make you a little more alert and less vulnerable.

^ This. I definitely agree with this. When one's rhetoric doesn't match one's actions, I tend to have little to no respect for them and look askance at them.
"I'm not concerned with you liking or disliking me. All I ask is that you respect me as a human being." - Jackie Robinson

Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.67

http://chagak.net...
http://plaisirephemere.blogspot.com...
http://chagak.dreamwidth.org...
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2014 7:08:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 11:53:39 PM, apb4y wrote:
There are countries where women cannot speak, drive or uncover their faces in public, for fear of being stoned to death.

There are countries where it is common for the genitals of little girls to be mutilated in the name of chastity.

There are countries where little girls are married to older men who rape them.

True.

And then there are countries where women can be as loud as they want,

There is no de jure legislation targeting women for speaking their views. Our contemporary cultural and social landscape, however, reveals a different story. Just recently, Emma Watson gave a speech at the UN on gender equality and her own experiences with feminism. In response, threats were sent to leak private nude photos of her to the press. The threats were revealed to be a hoax but the use of such a threat to silence women is indicative (in this specific instance of a much larger trend) of a certain attitude which pervades our culture.

bare as much skin as they want,

See above. Also, the common justification for sexual assault notwithstanding, the idea that women are free to reveal themselves in a vacuum of political and cultural neutrality is a laughable proposition.

have sex with anybody they want,

See above.

press charges against men who rape them,

Sadly enough, the U.S. justice system is terrible at actually rectifying these charges (); forget the fact that cultural expectations preclude a majority of rape victims (both male and female) from reporting them (). It's also terrible to equate the de jure ability to report sexual assault with Western women "having it easy". As if the ability to (somewhat) seek justice for a crime which overwhelmingly targets one gender could even come close to rectifying the situation.

and do it all from their fancy, air-conditioned car. Virtually every feminist on the internet comes from this last category.

While I wouldn't suggest for a second that women have it as good as men, I'm of the opinion that feminists do little more than whine about political correctness, and aren't actually helping women at all.

You'd be wrong of course. Feminism isn't a monolithic intellectual movement aimed at the appeasement of minutely annoying phenomenon targeting privileged white women. Intersectional studies, lit on post-colonialism and it's intersection with feminism, black feminists from Angelou to hooks, those writing on the coupling of womanhood and structural economic inequality, etc. etc. all disprove yer claim but it doesn't seem as though you've looked to much into it to begin with. And those things you claimed to have made feminism obsolete?- (ability to attempt to charge people with sexual assault, ability to own or drive a car, sexual liberation, relative freedom from sexual puritanism, ability to even speak in public) where do you think those changes came from? From white men in power? Or, perhaps, from women agitating on behalf of the idea of gender equality?

"Those who complain most suffer least." - Aesop

This is a dumb quote and yer a dumb person.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2014 7:08:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 3:31:03 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I really see absolutely no downside to women being all gung-ho. Who cares? They're not gonna kill us or anything.

Yar, that's historically been the job of men amirite?

I'm not gonna read Fool, but assume he's went on the same old rant and that he's wrong.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2014 7:18:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM, Osiris_Rosenthorne wrote:
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.

This is a problem. ^
The idea that societal struggles are race blind or sex blind is a discursive mechanism used to silence minority struggles under the banner of "egalitarianism" when the material reality of the situation paints quite a different picture. It's this idea which allows people to claim that "misandry" exists, likewise for "reverse racism" and "heterophobia". It's a discourse perpetuated by the class of individuals who (by their social standing as the dominant class) have a vested interest in painting social problems in equal light. The genocide of blacks in the U.S. is overcoded by a discourse on race-neutral "civil rights". The rampant rape and objectification of women throughout the world is overcoded by a discourse on "egalitarianism" with feminism (that discourse which takes as it's genesis the defense of an at-risk class) being painted as "man hate" or "misandry". The most efficient way to pacify discourses and movements which are radically opposed to the dominant structure (usually those undertaken by minorities i.e., women, ethnic minorities, queer classes, etc.) is to paint them as self-interested and self-centered while those in a dominant position relative to them paint themselves as neutral agents simply interested in "equality" and "fairness". It's a cowardly defense mechanism which emanates the interests of the oppressors over and against the oppressed.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2014 11:38:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/25/2014 7:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM, Osiris_Rosenthorne wrote:
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.

This is a problem. ^
The idea that societal struggles are race blind or sex blind is a discursive mechanism used to silence minority struggles under the banner of "egalitarianism" when the material reality of the situation paints quite a different picture. It's this idea which allows people to claim that "misandry" exists, likewise for "reverse racism" and "heterophobia". It's a discourse perpetuated by the class of individuals who (by their social standing as the dominant class) have a vested interest in painting social problems in equal light. The genocide of blacks in the U.S. is overcoded by a discourse on race-neutral "civil rights". The rampant rape and objectification of women throughout the world is overcoded by a discourse on "egalitarianism" with feminism (that discourse which takes as it's genesis the defense of an at-risk class) being painted as "man hate" or "misandry". The most efficient way to pacify discourses and movements which are radically opposed to the dominant structure (usually those undertaken by minorities i.e., women, ethnic minorities, queer classes, etc.) is to paint them as self-interested and self-centered while those in a dominant position relative to them paint themselves as neutral agents simply interested in "equality" and "fairness". It's a cowardly defense mechanism which emanates the interests of the oppressors over and against the oppressed.

I'm in love with your post. Who are you and why aren't we best fiends?
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2014 12:32:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/25/2014 11:38:15 PM, kbub wrote:
At 9/25/2014 7:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 9/3/2014 12:55:57 PM, Osiris_Rosenthorne wrote:
90% of work related deaths are male, a majority of prisoners, high school drop outs are male, men die at a younger age, and the pay gap is what dominates the news. If I have a problem with feminism, it is the same problem I have with masculism. It advocates for either mens rights, or women's rights. Which is why I'm sexist, I advocate for the rights of the sexes, just as Martin Luther king wasn't the black rights leader, but the civil rights leader. To take any position of being either a feminist or a masculist, is, in my view, to place your own equity above another, which is implicitly misandry or misogyny.

This is a problem. ^
The idea that societal struggles are race blind or sex blind is a discursive mechanism used to silence minority struggles under the banner of "egalitarianism" when the material reality of the situation paints quite a different picture. It's this idea which allows people to claim that "misandry" exists, likewise for "reverse racism" and "heterophobia". It's a discourse perpetuated by the class of individuals who (by their social standing as the dominant class) have a vested interest in painting social problems in equal light. The genocide of blacks in the U.S. is overcoded by a discourse on race-neutral "civil rights". The rampant rape and objectification of women throughout the world is overcoded by a discourse on "egalitarianism" with feminism (that discourse which takes as it's genesis the defense of an at-risk class) being painted as "man hate" or "misandry". The most efficient way to pacify discourses and movements which are radically opposed to the dominant structure (usually those undertaken by minorities i.e., women, ethnic minorities, queer classes, etc.) is to paint them as self-interested and self-centered while those in a dominant position relative to them paint themselves as neutral agents simply interested in "equality" and "fairness". It's a cowardly defense mechanism which emanates the interests of the oppressors over and against the oppressed.

I'm in love with your post. Who are you and why aren't we best fiends?

I'm an oldie. Not much left of this site so I don't come around much.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2014 2:56:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Essentially, feminism is an enlightened point of view, and the fundamental reason that everyone isn't wholeheartedly in favor of it is of course the fact that everyone isn't enlightened. (Of course there are other fairly obvious reasons that loom quite large, such as the desire of a great many men to maintain male dominance, the fear of neanderthaloid and insecure males that feminism will lead to the dreaded "feminization of America", religious indoctrination ["Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands ,,,", that sort of biblical bilge], the stupid-minded reactionism of the right, etc.)
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2014 3:05:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 2:26:42 AM, tulle wrote:
http://www.blackgirldangerous.org...

I <3 black girl dangerous. I actually had shared this article on fb just yesterday, haha!

Anyone who hasn't read the above article must. It is great.

I definitely don't mean to assume that feminism is contingent on males being benefited. And, to be honest, gender equality would probably harm males a lot, especially with regards to jobs, wealth, and political and social power. However, I cannot support any male who finds that violence against women is not reason enough to support women, that feminism must first prove that it benefits him. That's baloney. We must fight oppression and inequality in all its forms, and not merely when it suits us.

Thanks for the article!