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Is this what America has come to?

Jikpamu
Posts: 226
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8/28/2014 12:21:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thursday, August 28, 2014

An atheist group has successfully pressured a school district in Florida to quit allowing local ministers to provide pregame and post-game prayers for football players, threatening a suit over claimed constitutional infractions.

Bible verses and all references to the Bible are also banned on school property, including on clothing produced by the school. And songs with religious lyrics can"t be used in school-related videos, Fox News reported.

The new crackdown comes at the pressing of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Wisconsin, which threatened to sue the school over the team"s chaplain.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com...#...

See Also:

Minnesota city sued for rejecting Islam

http://www.foxnews.com......

August 28, 2014

ST. ANTHONY, Minn " The U.S. government is suing the city of St. Anthony for alleged religious discrimination for rejecting a proposed Islamic center in 2012, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger said Wednesday.

Jikpamu comments:

Is the below comment what America has come to?

bibles OUT, mosques OUT.... PORNO IN! " < LanceB > 08/28 09:31

https://forums.craigslist.org...
Jikpamu: Conservative "Libertarian" Born-Again Bible-Believing Christian
I am against homosexuality, gay marriage, and abortion (particularly abortion).
I am for anything Jesus and the Bible : )
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/28/2014 1:11:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 12:21:52 PM, Jikpamu wrote:


August 28, 2014

ST. ANTHONY, Minn " The U.S. government is suing the city of St. Anthony for alleged religious discrimination for rejecting a proposed Islamic center in 2012, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger said Wednesday.

Jikpamu comments:

Is the below comment what America has come to?

bibles OUT, mosques OUT.... PORNO IN! " < LanceB > 08/28 09:31

https://forums.craigslist.org...

Are you suggesting that a city should be allowed to flat out deny a religious group a permit, based on nothing more than their religion?
My work here is, finally, done.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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8/29/2014 10:19:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Secularism isn't neutral and it doesn't remove the problem of diversity. You probably have to make concessions at least when it comes to social matters. For example, some people do not believe polygamy should be banned, some people don't support homosexual marriage, and communists can't claim to have political equality.
Morality
Posts: 135
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8/30/2014 8:24:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If religious sermons are allowed to be held, then EVERY religion should be allowed to hold sermons, including Hindus, Buddhists, Pastafarians etc.

Having religious activities on school grounds is unconstitutional.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/30/2014 9:01:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 8:24:42 PM, Morality wrote:
If religious sermons are allowed to be held, then EVERY religion should be allowed to hold sermons, including Hindus, Buddhists, Pastafarians etc.

Having religious activities on school grounds is unconstitutional.

Is it really?
I think it is more if it is a function of the school.

I went to a school and on Sunday's there was a church there. (they rented the space)

I don't know enough about the case to form a solid opinion.
I don't see why the school should be forced to disallow a local chaplin, if they are not paid by the school.
Similarly, I don't see why a group of students can't have a prayer circle during lunch in a vacant classroom.
My work here is, finally, done.
Morality
Posts: 135
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8/30/2014 9:03:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Is it really?
I think it is more if it is a function of the school.

I went to a school and on Sunday's there was a church there. (they rented the space)

I don't know enough about the case to form a solid opinion.
I don't see why the school should be forced to disallow a local chaplin, if they are not paid by the school.
Similarly, I don't see why a group of students can't have a prayer circle during lunch in a vacant classroom.
Because they are using government property to do it. Unless the U.S. government allows this for every religion in existence, the government is favoring a religion over the others. This goes the Establishment clause and has been ruled by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/30/2014 9:07:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:03:09 PM, Morality wrote:
At 8/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Is it really?
I think it is more if it is a function of the school.

I went to a school and on Sunday's there was a church there. (they rented the space)

I don't know enough about the case to form a solid opinion.
I don't see why the school should be forced to disallow a local chaplin, if they are not paid by the school.
Similarly, I don't see why a group of students can't have a prayer circle during lunch in a vacant classroom.
Because they are using government property to do it. Unless the U.S. government allows this for every religion in existence, the government is favoring a religion over the others. This goes the Establishment clause and has been ruled by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional.

Yes, if a Christian wants a prayer group and is allowed, then a Muslim should have that option as well. The fact that a Muslim child hasn't asked for permission is not the issue of the school's, nor is it favoring, since it was asked.

By that logic, then people shouting "god hates [anything]" in the city park should be arrested. They are not, nor should not.
My work here is, finally, done.
Morality
Posts: 135
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8/30/2014 9:10:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:07:14 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Yes, if a Christian wants a prayer group and is allowed, then a Muslim should have that option as well. The fact that a Muslim child hasn't asked for permission is not the issue of the school's, nor is it favoring, since it was asked.

By that logic, then people shouting "god hates [anything]" in the city park should be arrested. They are not, nor should not.

They are not sponsored by the government. The city park has been deemed property where it is fair to protest the government, whatever your reasons may be. The school is not, and if you try, you will be arrested. You cannot protest in the White House, nor should you.

The government should be completely secular, and religion should be a private matter, That is what the establishment clause is about, not respecting any one religion. The Supreme Court, as I said, echoes this statement and has said that schools should be completely secular.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/30/2014 9:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:10:12 PM, Morality wrote:
At 8/30/2014 9:07:14 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Yes, if a Christian wants a prayer group and is allowed, then a Muslim should have that option as well. The fact that a Muslim child hasn't asked for permission is not the issue of the school's, nor is it favoring, since it was asked.

By that logic, then people shouting "god hates [anything]" in the city park should be arrested. They are not, nor should not.

They are not sponsored by the government. The city park has been deemed property where it is fair to protest the government, whatever your reasons may be. The school is not, and if you try, you will be arrested. You cannot protest in the White House, nor should you.

The government should be completely secular, and religion should be a private matter, That is what the establishment clause is about, not respecting any one religion. The Supreme Court, as I said, echoes this statement and has said that schools should be completely secular.

And I disagree with that ruling.

Schools, in day-to-day policies and practices, should be secular. However, I do not believe that applies to after school activities, nor should it apply to on-demand issues, like using vacant space for a religious purpose by choice.
Can a student keep a bible in his locker? Can he read it at lunch? Can he discuss it at recess? It's government property, after all.
Out of curiosity, my school performed Anything Goes. Should the sermon scene have been cut out? Or the hymns that are sung during it?

The issue with schools is that children are their BY FORCE. Thus, a policy that advocates a religion is, by extension, a policy that the government advocates. I do not agree that if a student wants a bible study during lunch, while other students can use classrooms for their study, they should be denied. Nor do I believe a Quran study group should be either. I also don't believe the school needs to allocate a room for each religion, unless it is asked.
My work here is, finally, done.
Morality
Posts: 135
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8/30/2014 9:51:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:19:00 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:


And I disagree with that ruling.

Schools, in day-to-day policies and practices, should be secular. However, I do not believe that applies to after school activities, nor should it apply to on-demand issues, like using vacant space for a religious purpose by choice.
It's government property with the sole purpose of educating children, nothing else. Religion is not and should not be part of curriculum. School activities are present to also help facilitate education and instill good values.
Can a student keep a bible in his locker? Can he read it at lunch? Can he discuss it at recess? It's government property, after all.
That's his personal property that he is using for his own individual purposes. He is not using government property to spread his religious values into others.
Out of curiosity, my school performed Anything Goes. Should the sermon scene have been cut out? Or the hymns that are sung during it?
If it is part of a play, that is being used for education, then it should not. It is not being used for a solely religious purpose.

The issue with schools is that children are their BY FORCE.
They have alternatives, like private schools and homeschooling. If the parents are so dogmatic they cannot abide by secular teaching, they can take those routes.
Thus, a policy that advocates a religion is, by extension, a policy that the government advocates. I do not agree that if a student wants a bible study during lunch, while other students can use classrooms for their study, they should be denied. Nor do I believe a Quran study group should be either. I also don't believe the school needs to allocate a room for each religion, unless it is asked.
There is a single purpose for schools: education. We, as a society, have decided that schools should instill religious values into children, and should instill secular ones. Religious activities serve one purpose: religion. Any values other than religious ones they teach can be taught in other means.
ConcernedRed
Posts: 2
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9/9/2014 10:22:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
trying to come up with variations of different solutions to whether or not people should be denied this or that is a total waste of time. you say "is this what America is coming to"? Fact in this matter is this: St. Anthony didn't want an Islamic center in their town. done. story over. that town elects its own officials, those officials are free to vote however they like. President Obama trying to sue them for something they voted on is completely insane and it makes my blood boil.
thett3
Posts: 14,372
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9/9/2014 10:58:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean, I just don't find it that unreasonable to prohibit a public institution from explicitly advocating a certain religion by putting Bible verses on their shirts.

I also don't find it unreasonable to allow prayers to be said if no one objects to it. This part is one of those non issues that rightfully makes militant atheists look bad, but many of the things the school isn't allowed to do you cited are pretty reasonable.
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Jikpamu
Posts: 226
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9/10/2014 1:23:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 10:58:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
I mean, I just don't find it that unreasonable to prohibit a public institution from explicitly advocating a certain religion by putting Bible verses on their shirts.

I also don't find it unreasonable to allow prayers to be said if no one objects to it. This part is one of those non issues that rightfully makes militant atheists look bad, but many of the things the school isn't allowed to do you cited are pretty reasonable.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (New International Version 2011)
Dt 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Dt 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Dt 6:6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
Dt 6:7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
Dt 6:8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.
***Dt 6:9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
Jikpamu: Conservative "Libertarian" Born-Again Bible-Believing Christian
I am against homosexuality, gay marriage, and abortion (particularly abortion).
I am for anything Jesus and the Bible : )
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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9/10/2014 8:10:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Is this what America has come to? This is nothing new, where have you been for the last 20 years? America came to this decades ago.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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9/14/2014 10:27:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 12:21:52 PM, Jikpamu wrote:
Thursday, August 28, 2014

An atheist group has successfully pressured a school district in Florida to quit allowing local ministers to provide pregame and post-game prayers for football players, threatening a suit over claimed constitutional infractions.

Bible verses and all references to the Bible are also banned on school property, including on clothing produced by the school. And songs with religious lyrics can"t be used in school-related videos, Fox News reported.

The new crackdown comes at the pressing of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Wisconsin, which threatened to sue the school over the team"s chaplain.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com...#...

See Also:

Minnesota city sued for rejecting Islam

http://www.foxnews.com......

August 28, 2014

ST. ANTHONY, Minn " The U.S. government is suing the city of St. Anthony for alleged religious discrimination for rejecting a proposed Islamic center in 2012, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger said Wednesday.

Jikpamu comments:

Is the below comment what America has come to?

bibles OUT, mosques OUT.... PORNO IN! " < LanceB > 08/28 09:31

https://forums.craigslist.org...

Thank good. If I am a high school football player at a public high school, I have a right to not be harassed by the expectation I have to listen to some outside preacher'd drivel. I use harassed because in team sports one is expected to participate in team events such as team prayer with an outside chaplain.

It is time for Christians to have a little respect for people who don't share their faith. Just because you are the majority does not give you the right to force it upon others.

Lastly, the article mentions the school was selling religious tee shirts, which indicates they went far across the line. The severe punishment of eliminating of all bible passages on school property while maybe a violation of individual rights, it is just another indication that the leaders at this school took it waaaaaaaaaaaaay too far and subjected everyone to their doctrine regardless of whether they wanted to be subjected to that or not.
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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9/19/2014 6:20:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think some of you guys are being ridiculous, I mean really kids can't form a prayer group b4 a football game? How is that unconstitutional? It's one thing if the coach is forcing all of the players to pray but if some of the students chose to have a prayer group the ones that don't wont to pray don't have to, they can just wait 1-2 minutes for the ones that do want to pray to finish. As long as religion isn't being required as part of the curriculum I don't see anything wrong with it.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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9/20/2014 5:13:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 12:21:52 PM, Jikpamu wrote:
Thursday, August 28, 2014

An atheist group has successfully pressured a school district in Florida to quit allowing local ministers to provide pregame and post-game prayers for football players, threatening a suit over claimed constitutional infractions.

Bible verses and all references to the Bible are also banned on school property, including on clothing produced by the school. And songs with religious lyrics can"t be used in school-related videos, Fox News reported.

The new crackdown comes at the pressing of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Wisconsin, which threatened to sue the school over the team"s chaplain.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com...#...

See Also:

Minnesota city sued for rejecting Islam

http://www.foxnews.com......

August 28, 2014

ST. ANTHONY, Minn " The U.S. government is suing the city of St. Anthony for alleged religious discrimination for rejecting a proposed Islamic center in 2012, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger said Wednesday.

Jikpamu comments:

Is the below comment what America has come to?

bibles OUT, mosques OUT.... PORNO IN! " < LanceB > 08/28 09:31

https://forums.craigslist.org...

Sure, there are secularists who go too far in upholding the principle that government should not promote a particular religion, or who in fact hide a bigoted anti-religious agenda behind a seemingly progressive stance of supporting the constitutional separation of church and state, but the by far greater threat and menace to our civil liberties is that posed by the Christofascist camp on the religious right. Let's not loose sight of this in our condemnation of the reverse intolerance of secularists.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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9/20/2014 5:15:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Typo correction. "... Let's not loose sight of ..." should of course read: "... Let's not lose sight of ..."
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.