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Anti-Rape Nail Polish

RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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8/28/2014 1:26:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...

This is weird...
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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8/28/2014 1:37:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:26:12 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...

This is weird...

http://www.google.com...

Better than nail polish.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/28/2014 5:54:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
RyuuKyuzo: Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

The Fool: Where is part where they blame victims?
<(86)

1. It's not even a legitimate source and the links don't support it claims.
2.The quotes have been cut and stitched together from a completely unrelated article about bikes.
3. Its feminist propaganda

Against The Ideologist

It's weird because it doesn't even MAKE ANY SENSE!!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
apb4y
Posts: 480
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8/28/2014 6:12:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...

You sound all serious until the last paragraph, and then you flip the tables so that we're all going, "Wait, what?". That is some seriously skillful trolling. Well played.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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8/28/2014 6:42:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I really, really can't wrap my head around the mentality that, because someone recognizes something that happens often and tries to combat it via physical means, they're somehow "blaming the victim" or contributing to a culture that does so. If that's the case, disband the police - we'll be fine if we just reason with thugs, and, in the meantime while we do this, I'm sure we won't need any protection if they see any easy banks to rob.
#UnbanTheMadman

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Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

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LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/28/2014 6:51:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It is offensive to homeowners to sell them locks because they shouldn't have to watch out for burglars instead they should sit back and expect the burglars to leave them alone.

Awesome logic.
A True Work of Art: http://www.debate.org...

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SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
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8/28/2014 7:25:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

Why? I could say that women should be responsible for a man's safety.

A person should be responsible for their own safety. You just can't shift the burden of a women's welfare on a man or vice versa.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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8/28/2014 7:55:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some people parading around as feminists have really bizarre opinions which undermines things that feminisim should stand for. At my highschool some students wanted to get rid of the dress code for "perpetuating rape culture" because, you know, the purpose of dress codes is to keep students from getting raped on account of the clothes they wear.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/28/2014 10:01:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Jesus christ. I will attempt to translate.

http://mic.com...

Valenti is commenting on the disproportionate amount of time in the media which is spent treating rape as an inevitability that women should be vigilant about- even though they already are vigilant about it. And there is a disproportionate amount of ingenuity used to create anti-rape products rather than anti-rape mentalities via things like PSAs. In other words, the products treat the symptom but not the disease. The disease is the mindset of rapists- these men are mostly repeat offenders-very few only do it once-, and many of them do not believe they rape at all, nor do they necessarily believe rape is wrong, nor do they necessarily believe they are in the minority in what they do. But the thing is, they are raping, rape is wrong, and they are the tiny minority of men. When you take this "duh, everybody knows rape is wrong" stance, that's nice and all that you think that it's a given, but for rapists, it's not a given- and a lot of them think you, as a man, secretly agree with them. As is sometimes the case for rapists, your lack of a verbal disagreement with their actions is taken as tacit agreement with their actions.

So Valenti isn't saying, "fvck this nail polish. It offends me." She is looking at the bigger picture. The nail polish does not exist in a vacuum. This is an ongoing conversation.

She suggests, in general, (i.e. not necessarily just in this article) that there should be far more time spent discussing things like 1.) how men can make sure they're not raping someone (because rapists who participate in surveys about rape, when the word "rape" is used, often do not believe they raped someone, but they will admit to rape if the situation is described without the use of the word "rape"-yes, even when they "physically held someone down" and knew the person "didn't want to have sex." Yes, some people really need to be told that that is what rape is and that most men find it abhorrent.), 2.) teenage boys need to be taught that when someone is unconscious or promiscuous, it doesn't mean they have free reign on their body (yes, some actually, really believe they can do whatever they want to someone's body if they're unconscious or promiscuous. It is how the Steubenville case was even a thing at all), 3.) teenage boys ought to be encouraged to seek enthusiastic consent and they should know that a lack of a verbal "no" doesn't necessarily mean "yes" in every situation. Boys should be vigilant about seeking consent and respecting women's personal boundaries just as much as girls should be vigilant about expressing their own desires or lack thereof, about getting a cab home, about not wearing that outfit because it's too sexy and some people might get the wrong idea, about not getting drunk around too many guys she doesn't know too well, about watching her drink and not taking drinks from strangers, about checking in every time she gets home, about making sure her door is locked, about not walking home by herself in the dark, about not taking that shortcut through the alley, about not having too much sex because then a judge might not find her to be a sympathetic enough rape victim, about making sure her friends know where her date is with so-and-so from the third floor, about not looking or seeming much older than she is around older men, about making sure she put enough coats on her anti-rape nail polish,. etc.... etc...... etc.)

Teaching someone not to rape doesn't mean wagging a finger at them and saying "don't rape!" That is fvcking stupid. It means confronting the mentalities of rapists which allow them to rationalize doing it repeatedly.

inb4
-men can be raped too. (duh- and so can children and animals and the elderly and the mentally disabled- but none of these are the topic of discussion right now)
-you hate men. (no- sorry if women being disproportionately affected by sexual violence at the hands of men makes you uncomfortable and feel attacked- it should make you uncomfortable and the solution is largely in the hands of men- whose words carry more weight to rapists than women's- obviously. So instead of making up things about me, why don't you take the reigns as a vocal majority against the misconceptions rapists hold and let them know how you really feel instead of mistakenly believing your disdain is a given- because that would make a bigger difference overall than some ingenious nail polish. I promise.)
-what about two drunk people having sex. (what about it? I'm talking about unconscious people)
-rapists know rape is wrong and they don't care. (yeah, not necessarily. It'd be a small sect of sociopathic rapists who are like that- the rest tend to find a way to rationalize it based on misconceptions about what rape is- vocally challenge those notions and be a powerful force for "teaching men not to rape". Women have tried and continue trying- and instead of support, they get attacked. But unfortunately, the day rapists start listening to anything women say about rape is the day there won't be any more rapists.)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/28/2014 10:55:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Quotes are italicized.

RE: Yeah, the rates of sexual violence are *that* high. This is a preemptive inb4.

Study: http://psycnet.apa.org...

Part of the abstract:
"Women's reports of experiencing and men's reports of perpetrating rape, attempted rape, sexual coercion, and sexual contact were obtained, including both the rates of prevalence since age 14 and of incidence during the previous year. The findings support published assertions of high rates of rape and other forms of sexual aggression among large normal populations. Although the results are limited in generalizability to postsecondary students, this group represents 26% of all persons aged 18"24 in the United States."


RE: A study which shows using the "R" word doesn't help at all because the rapists often don't view "having sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist" or "having intercourse with an adult through force or threat of force" as rape.

A bloggy abstract:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com...
The study itself:
http://www.davidlisak.com...

"It's notoriously tough to figure out who the rapists are. Reporting and conviction rates for acquaintance rapes are so low as to be useless as a diagnostic tool. And how else can we know? The rapists won"t just tell us that they are rapists, right?

That"s what I would have though. Turns out I thought wrong. If a survey asks men, for example, if they ever "had sexual intercourse with somone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances," some of them will say yes, as long as the questions don"t use the "R" word."
Lisak & Miller at p. 74.

Their sample was 1882 college students, ranging in age from 18 to 71 with a median age of 26.5 " so somewhat older than a traditional college population. The group was also ethnically diverse. They asked this group four questions about rape and attempted rape. I"ll paraphrase:
1) Have you ever attempted unsuccessfully to have intercourse with an adult by force or threat of force?
2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?
3) Have you ever had intercourse with someone by force or threat of force?
4) Have you ever had oral intercourse with someone by force or threat of force?

[Edited to add: I paraphrased the questions to make them shorter, but now the questions are being quoted, so I thought it was only fair to the authors to key in the full text of the questions they used:

(1)Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult by using or threatening to use physical force (twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.) if they did not cooperate?
(2)Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?
(3)Have you ever had sexual intercourse with an adult when they didn"t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn"t cooperate?
(4)Have you ever had oral sex with an adult when they didn"t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn"t cooperate?
Lisak & Miller at 77-78.]

So without quibbling over the precise statutory definition, this equates to rape or attempted rape. 120 men admitted to raping to attempting to rape. This is actually a relatively slim proportion of the survey population " just over 6% " and might be an underreport, though for part of the sample, the survey team did interviews to confirm the self-reports, which tends to show if there is an undercount in the self-reports, and found the responses consistent. But the more interesting part of the findings were how those rapists and their offenses broke down.

Of the 120 rapists in the sample, 44 reported only one assault. The remaining 76 were repeat offenders. These 76 men, 63% of the rapists, committed 439 rapes or attempted rapes, an average of 5.8 each (median of 3, so there were some super-repeat offenders in this group). Just 4% of the men surveyed committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes.

The breakdown between the modus operandi of the rapists also tells us a lot about how wrong the script is. Of all 120 admitted rapists, only about 30% reported using force or threats, while the remainder raped intoxicated victims."


RE: "too intoxicated to resist & rapists not knowing that what they're doing is a crime and, more importantly, wrong & rapists thinking men support them.

http://www.npr.org...

"In an excerpt from one of Lisak's interview transcripts, a college student using the pseudonym Frank talks about how his friends would help him prep for an assault:

"We always had some kind of punch, you know, like our own home brew. We'd make it with a real sweet juice, and just pour in all kinds of alcohol. It was really powerful stuff. The girls wouldn't know what hit them."
Alcohol was the weapon of choice for these men, who typically saw themselves as college guys hooking up. They didn't think what they had done was a crime.

"Most of these men have an image or a myth about rape, that it's some guy in a ski mask wielding a knife," says Lisak. "They don't wear ski masks, they don't wield knives, so they don't see themselves as rapists."
" This idea that getting somebody intoxicated so you can have sex with them is an idea we just simply have to confront and erode.
- David Lisak


"John Foubert, the psychologist in Oklahoma, says it's important to remember that 90 percent of men have never committed a rape. The key is opening their eyes to what's going on with the other 10 percent, so they can see it and intervene."

---------------------------------------
Their "MVP" program featured in the NPR article is an example of "teaching men not to rape" and how men can be a force for good instead of standing idly by, throwing their arms up in exasperation saying, "well! rapists gonna rape!"
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/28/2014 11:02:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oryus The Informer.
Part 1

Oryus: Valenti is commenting on the disproportionate amount of time in the media which is spent treating rape as an inevitability that women should be vigilant about- even though they already are vigilant about it.

The Fool:
1.Woman or feminist? Measurement of vigilance?
2.How are you measuring disproportionateness? What are you basing this on?

Oryus: And there is a disproportionate amount of ingenuity used to create anti-rape products rather than anti-rape mentalities via things like PSAs.

The Fool:
1.How are you measuring disproportionateness?
2.Making a chemical that changes color when in .contact with another chemical is hardly ingenious. It"s not expensive.

Oryus: In other words, the products treat the symptom but not the disease. The disease is the mindset of rapists-

The Fool: Date rape drug users will be much more discouraged, if they know it can be detected. Even the advertisement of the possibility of being detected, will decrease motivation, a lot more than than any PSA .You can"t be serious.

Oryus: these men are mostly repeat offenders-very few only do it once-, and many of them do not believe they rape at all, nor do they necessarily believe rape is wrong, nor do they necessarily believe they are in the minority in what they do. But the thing is, they are raping, rape is wrong, and they are the tiny minority of men.

The Fool:
1. How are you measuring that very few people only do it once? Are these not the same people would be less likely to get caught?
2. Who rapes and doesn"t believe that they rape AT ALL?

What? Rape is great!
E.g. It"s a great thing for me when a girl wakes me up with a blow job. Technically this would be rape, because I was not asked for consent. Therefore if what feminists say is true, then even rape is not necessarily immoral, but can even be great, in fact awesome. I"m sure a lot of men would like to be raped like that more often.

When people think of rape, we generally have in mind "violent rape", where a woman is resisting, and it is being forced against her will. Because that"s what the original meaning of rape is.

Feminist, have for themselves, are taking advantage of that association, and broadening the definition to include all they possibly can,(unless nobody says anything) for the demonization of men.

Just like the overuse, of Sexism, Sexual harassment, objectification and misogyny have been so watered down, to where they are not even necessarily wrong anymore. Misogyny is often used, devoid any context of "hate" for women. But simply, disagreeing with feminism.

Against The Ideologist

Lol What!?!!? This is too easy.
<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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8/28/2014 11:51:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 11:02:28 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Oryus The Informer.
Part 1

Oryus: Valenti is commenting on the disproportionate amount of time in the media which is spent treating rape as an inevitability that women should be vigilant about- even though they already are vigilant about it.

The Fool:
1.Woman or feminist? Measurement of vigilance?
2.How are you measuring disproportionateness? What are you basing this on?

Oryus: And there is a disproportionate amount of ingenuity used to create anti-rape products rather than anti-rape mentalities via things like PSAs.

The Fool:
1.How are you measuring disproportionateness?
2.Making a chemical that changes color when in .contact with another chemical is hardly ingenious. It"s not expensive.

Oryus: In other words, the products treat the symptom but not the disease. The disease is the mindset of rapists-

The Fool: Date rape drug users will be much more discouraged, if they know it can be detected. Even the advertisement of the possibility of being detected, will decrease motivation, a lot more than than any PSA .You can"t be serious.

Oryus: these men are mostly repeat offenders-very few only do it once-, and many of them do not believe they rape at all, nor do they necessarily believe rape is wrong, nor do they necessarily believe they are in the minority in what they do. But the thing is, they are raping, rape is wrong, and they are the tiny minority of men.

The Fool:
1. How are you measuring that very few people only do it once? Are these not the same people would be less likely to get caught?
2. Who rapes and doesn"t believe that they rape AT ALL?

What? Rape is great!
E.g. It"s a great thing for me when a girl wakes me up with a blow job. Technically this would be rape, because I was not asked for consent. Therefore if what feminists say is true, then even rape is not necessarily immoral, but can even be great, in fact awesome. I"m sure a lot of men would like to be raped like that more often.

When people think of rape, we generally have in mind "violent rape", where a woman is resisting, and it is being forced against her will. Because that"s what the original meaning of rape is.

Feminist, have for themselves, are taking advantage of that association, and broadening the definition to include all they possibly can,(unless nobody says anything) for the demonization of men.

Just like the overuse, of Sexism, Sexual harassment, objectification and misogyny have been so watered down, to where they are not even necessarily wrong anymore. Misogyny is often used, devoid any context of "hate" for women. But simply, disagreeing with feminism.

Against The Ideologist

Lol What!?!!? This is too easy.
<(8D)



kfc
Oryus
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8/29/2014 12:08:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 11:02:28 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Oryus The Informer.
Part 1

He asked me questions I answered. He is arguing against not what I said but what he assumes "feminists" say- and explicitly states that he is arguing against "feminists." He argues that the nail-polish would discourage the use of date-rape drugs but disputes that it's "ingenious" because of an offhand adjective I used. He asked me where I got info and ignored my other comment entirely- which says precisely where some of the info comes from.

And he will do this.. more... in multiple parts.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net...

Somebody else respond to me, please. I beg of you.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/29/2014 12:10:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oryus The Informer.
Part 2

Oryus: When you take this "duh, everybody knows rape is wrong" stance, that's nice and all that you think that it's a given, but for rapists, it's not a given- and a lot of them think you, as a man, secretly agree with them.

The Fool: What are you basing, the mind of a rapist on, and how does that make non-rapists, responsible for what the rapists think?

Oryus: As is sometimes the case for rapists, your lack of a verbal disagreement with their actions is taken as tacit agreement with their actions.

The Fool: Sometimes you get hit by lightning..

E.g. "We don"t openly give verbal disagreement that we don"t want to randomly be punched in the face. Nor do we need to walk around always declaring that we don"t want to be randomly punched in the face by anybody, because they might have took the nonexistence of verbal disagreement, to think we agree with being punched in the face."
<(8D)

And no, the lack of this verbal disagreement is not what a tacit agreement IS.
Smack your professors for me.

Oryus: So Valenti isn't saying, "fvck this nail polish. It offends me."

The Fool: I love how feminists always talk about what everybody else is thinking and saying for them.

Oryus: She is looking at the bigger picture.

The Fool: Oh, I get it" it"s a culture thing"
<(8D)

Oryus: The nail polish does not exist in a vacuum.

The Fool: It"s just so elusive" it"s everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

Oryus: This is an ongoing conversation.

The Fool: I can"t help but think, I"ve heard this kind of story before.

E.g. Date rape drug protector, leads to woman wearing chastity belts, leads to "blue balls", leads to men singing songs about sex, leads to scantily clad women videos, leads to the objectification of women, leads to violence against women, and leads to more rape then ever, and so reinforces rape culture. It"s an ongoing continuous thing. Textbook feminism.
<(8D)

Against The Ideologist

But some call it a "slippery slope".
<(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/29/2014 1:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oyrus The Informer
Interlude

Oryus: He asked me questions I answered.

The Fool: This is false. You did not answer the question, "I" asked you.

SUPPORT:
How are you measuring that very few people only do it once?
What are you basing this on? [In relation to media Proportion]
Are these not the same people would be less likely to get caught?
Who rapes and doesn"t believe that they rape AT ALL?
Woman or feminist? Measurement of vigilance?
How are you measuring disproportionateness?
http://www.debate.org...

Oryus: He is arguing against not what I said but what he assumes "feminists" say- and explicitly states that he is arguing against "feminists."

The Fool: Where do I say this?
Example?!? Support? Quote, link, anything?

Oryus: He argues that the nail-polish would discourage the use of date-rape drugs but disputes that it's "ingenious" because of an offhand adjective I used.

The Fool: It"s not a contradiction, nor is it absurd. I"m referring to using chemicals for detecting drugs.

SUPPORT:
2.Making a chemical that changes color when in contact with another chemical is hardly ingenious. It"s not expensive."
http://www.debate.org...

Oryus: He asked me where I got info and ignored my other comment entirely-

The Fool: This is False. Not only did I responded to each individual sentence but I'm not done. And you know that because your yourself claimed "I would do it in multiple parts.". Of course it"s in multiple parts; you made multiple posts, and one post plus a full response is at least two posts.

Oryus: which says precisely where some of the info comes from.

The Fool: So you admit that its precisely LACKING.

Against The Ideologist
The Fool: How's the cognitive dissonance?

Oryus: http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net...

The Fool: Exactly!

Oyrus The Informer
Part 1
http://www.debate.org...
Part 2
http://www.debate.org...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Oryus
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8/29/2014 1:39:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 1:14:14 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Oyrus The Informer
Interlude

Amazing.

Ain't nobody got time to c/p most of the quotes from our comments.
Read things more attentively, fool.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/29/2014 2:26:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oyrus The Informer
Interlude 2

Oyrus : Amazing.

The Fool: Why thank you. I told you I was good.

Oyrus : Ain't nobody got time to c/p most of the quotes from our comments.

The Fool: "Ain't nobody got time"?!?
<(89)

Have you been drinking?
<(8O)

It sounds like you are suddenly trying to appeal to an audience of lesser intelligence.
<(8D)

Oyrus: Read things more attentively, fool.

The Fool: Do I not quote everything I'm responding to, and support every relevant claim that I make. That"s pretty amazing attentiveness.

Besides be grateful .. I'm probably the only one who actually read all of your dry your long-winded post anyways.
<(86)

But I'm sure some hillbillies got your back---woods on this one.

Against The Ideologist

Oryus's Professor: Your final grade is F!!!!


"Her reaction"
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net...

(To be continued)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/29/2014 2:42:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
ORYUS THE INFORMER
Part 1
http://www.debate.org...
Part 2
http://www.debate.org...
Interlude 1
http://www.debate.org...
Interlude 2
http://www.debate.org...

(To be continued.. perhaps)

Always and Forever Against The Ideologist

Night Oryus!!!
<(89)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/29/2014 3:46:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

Why?


"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...

I'm guessing you're some sort of...troll? Most people come back and defend their posts, but you've let us devolve into arguing amongst ourselves, as usual.

Well played, sir.
apb4y
Posts: 480
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8/29/2014 6:22:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You can never control whether another person is going to behave like an a55hole.

What you can control is what precautions you take.

This is true no matter who you are, and can be applied to any situation in life.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/29/2014 10:44:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm trying to get at the root of the disagreement in this thread so don't take my singling you out personally or anything. I have no idea what your framework around these comments is and am not trying to make assumptions about what that framework is. It's just that I believe your three comments here sum up the root of the disagreement rather nicely.

At 8/29/2014 6:22:13 AM, apb4y wrote:
You can never control whether another person is going to behave like an a55hole.

Is that really true though?

Does this imply that you think people who do bad things are really just "bad" essentially and can't be discouraged from doing bad things? Haters gonna hate, etc? (Some people do think this is true- but I doubt most people do)

If that is the case, why are recidivism rates different in different countries?

In other words, if rehabilitation works sometimes, how can you honestly say that you can't discourage someone from "behav[ing] like an a55hole"?

If sex education affects the rate of teenage pregnancy so drastically, can you honestly say that PSAs and/or education do not have an effect on how people act or think?

If you accept that PSAs, education, and rehabilitation can and do work, even if only some of the time, then you have to accept that you can discourage people from "behav[ing] like an a55hole."

What you can control is what precautions you take.

That is true.
This is true no matter who you are, and can be applied to any situation in life.

So, my main point about the root of the disagreement here is that people like Valenti, and I, believe that a.) there are widespread myths and misconceptions about rape which rapists internalize and that encourages them to rape without fear of consequence (this is what is referred to as "rape culture"- see the study I linked to above- interviews with "Frank"), b.) it is possible to challenge these notions via things like PSAs and better sex education thus allowing rapists to realize that what they are doing is wrong and nobody approves of it, and c.) it should be done in order to mitigate the cultural narratives which encourage rapists (the disproportionate amount of time spent in the media focusing on what precautions to take- putting the onus on women, most critically in a court of law, where the plaintiff often becomes the defendant) and this vocal discouragement is not done nearly enough.

In summation, I do not believe that rapists are essentially rapists who can't be discouraged- unless they are truly a sociopath.

My assumptions based on what people say about this is that they believe a.) rapists are essentially rapists and they cannot be discouraged from raping, b.) the amount of time spent in the media discussing what precautions women should take to avoid rape does not encourage rapists, c.) the amount of time spent in the media discussing what precautions women should take does not effect the way rape cases are treated in a court of law.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/29/2014 12:49:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oryus The Informer
Part 3

Oryus: She suggests, in general, (i.e. not necessarily just in this article) that there should be far more time spent discussing things like 1.)

The Fool: she suggests, that we should spend much more time discussing the punishing of the victim. But she doesn't really support it.

These guys have done something thoughtful, purposeful, and useful, in helping to stop rape and she"s trying to twist the truth to support the "feminist myth" that our culture(really patriarchy) is generally one that merely blames the victim.
E.g.

Vaneni: "appreciative that young men like want to curb sexual assault, but anything that puts the onus on women to "discreetly" keep from being raped misses the point.

The Fool: In other words, "I don"t really appreciate these young men, because they support victim blaming. Therefore these men are part of the problem. And this is support for the "feminist myth" that our culture(really patriarchy) is generally one that merely blames the victim. Her real intention.

The hate is evident through the sarcasm.
This sarcastic, insincere, aggressive, stigmatizing, and hate motivated rhetoric has the consistent intention of merely distorting anything men do positively, as some kind of secret patriarchal pack whose purpose is simply to subjugate and oppress women, and inevitably hurts themselves, through some form of emotional repression. That same long slippery slope argument, ending as always by concluding men are stupid and or evil.

We see this clearly when they try to explain men"s self-sacrifices to save woman and children first, whether it"s in war, or when disaster strikes, whether protecting our family, and the extra protection and effort we put in safeguarding are daughters and sisters, over our boys and ourselves.

We send our men and boys, to D-Day, knowing that we are ordering them to their death. Like a human bullet shields, thousands and thousands died immediately when they hit the beachhead. We would never let our woman get shot down like that.

But instead of explaining our "chivalry "as selflessness and/or caring, feminist preach that men only do it because the society(patriarchy) is forcing them to do so, or that men are insincere, or because men think they are superior, or because men are merely trying to control and abuse them, or simply because we"re just too stupid to take precaution for ourselves.

And this is the very mindset of the article writer, and Oryus share towards us.

Proof for Oryus"s shared intentions:
http://www.debate.org...

The Fool: And that"s the reason why she was so motivated in defending the feminist propaganda to the point where it didn"t even relate, to the topic. She felt she had to translate for us, because she knows better.

e.g.
Oryus: Jesus christ. I will attempt to translate.
Http://www.debate.org...

Finishing off Oryus"s men Hating hero.
Vaneni: We should be trying to stop rape, not just individually avoid it."

The Fool: Who is the person saying that we merely individually try to avoid it?
As argued, the very idea that a date rape drug can be detected, will help discourage the very use of it.
Therefore helping stop rape. That was a fatal blow, neither of them could seen coming.

Concluding Remarks
The Fool: I believe a given enough evidence to support that they are both not nearly as concerned with any moral criteria in regard for women"s welfare, nor in preventing woman from being raped as much as they yearning to see men stigmatized punished and suffering"

The final evidence for this argument is given by Vaneni concluding line.

Vaneni: If we want to stop rape " not merely avoid it " we need to hold rapists accountable and stop blaming victims.

The Fool: She was never really concerned about preventing rape, but to harm and stigmatize men through propaganda.
http://www.theguardian.com...

Against The Ideologist

Yes, they are that CRUEL.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Skikx
Posts: 132
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8/29/2014 1:31:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 1:21:34 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Can you believe this level of victim-blaming?

http://www.theguardian.com...

From the article "Why is it easier to invent anti-rape nail polish than find a way to stop rapists?":

"You can"t really expect women to wear modern chastity belts or a real-life vagina dentata in order to be safe."

Exactly. Women shouldn't be responsible for women's safety. Men should be responsible for women's safety.

"That"s not trying to stop rape - it"s essentially arguing that some people getting raped is inevitable."

When we know for a fact it isn't.

This nail-polish triggers me something fierce. I haven't been this mad since they came out with ballistic vests. I mean, why is it easier to invent bullet-proof vests than find a way to stop gunmen? Pathetic...

"Even if a woman were to wear special nail polish or anti-rape underwear, or if she listens to common " but misplaced " advice about not getting drunk and always walking home in a group, all she"s supposedly ensuring is that she won"t be attacked. (And even then it"s not real security, because women who do all the "right" things get raped too)"
"The problem is that simply being female in public remains an undue risk."

So the article itself is saying it is pretty much inevitable that somebody will get raped.

And there is no victim blaming here, it is simply another way for people to increase their own security. The only victim blaming is the quote from another article, which got already addressed in the article you linked.
Don't like it, don't use it. You think you're at no risk of getting raped, don't use it.

But what is wrong with giving people the possibility to check if somebody put something in their drink.

I live in a nice, quite rural area, with my house being far off the road. I can't remember that there has ever been a break in here in my town. At best there was one at the gas station, but I never heard of one in a private residence.
So I am not afraid that somebody will break into my home and steal something, thus I don't really have a problem with leaving the door unlocked when I am not around.
Hell, sometimes I even leave the windows wide open, when I take walk my dog over the adjacent fields and through the woods.
But that doesn't mean that I against being able to lock my doors and close the windows. Nor am I saying that a burglar shouldn't be punished for breaking into my home.
And where I to live in a different area, maybe a city, or if there was a series of break-ins in this area, I would most likely lock all my doors.
Being able to take extra precaution in a situation where you suspect you are in danger is generally a good thing.
That doesn't mean that you are at fault if something happens and you didn't take all 112 steps to protect yourself.
Some idiots are going to blame the victim anyway, no matter what you did or did not do. But that is not an argument to oppose the possibility to defend yourself.

Lets say you are driving without a seat belt on, you're at a crossroads and somebody comes from the right, drives over the red light, hits your car and you sustain heavy injuries,which could have been prevented by using the seat belt. Some people will blame you, at least partially, that is how it is. But you don't honestly think seat belts are a bad things and should no longer be part of a car, because some people might blame the victim, do you?

The same goes for this nail polish. At a club, you can never be sure if somebody might put something in your drink.
So if a women wants to stick her finger in her glass to check for drugs, more power to her.

The way I see it, the only people who have an actual reason to oppose such things are the rapists themselves.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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8/29/2014 2:43:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There's a difference between efforts to help women stay safe and putting the responsibility on women to avoid sexual assault. When well-intended advice like avoid getting drunk are viewed as saying that drunk girls deserve to be raped, there's a problem of communication.

Valenti is claiming that anti-rape nail polish implicitly endorses the suggestion that it's partly the victims fault that he/she is raped. I would disagree, but more relevantly I think opinions like this actually end up alienating well-meaning people from supporting feminist values and contribute to the incorrect perception of feminism as a radical women's movement. There's a tough balance between the point that rape is caused by people who choose to rape and not the choices of victims of rape one the one hand, and making people aware of factors related to rape (such as communicating consent) on the other; Valenti botches this balance in my opinion.
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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8/29/2014 2:44:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I guess women shouldn't carry pepper spray because people shouldn't attack them.

I think the feminist crowd has lost their minds. There is nothing wrong with producing a tool which can help an individual woman protect herself.

Nail polish that detects a drug designed to knock out a woman is not the same thing as asking her to wear ugly cloths or put on a vaginal penis hook contraption. It is a tool to protect one's self like pepper spray is.

I just don't get how we got to the point where empowering women to take control and protect themselves by learning self defense, carrying pepper spray, remaining aware, asking for escort from security to walk to the car after staying late at work, etc got to be such a bad thing.

I guess the new model is to sit back and trust the state to make sure you are protected and don't concern yourself about your safety.

This is a good example of how the entire "victim" discussion derails true empowerment.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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8/29/2014 4:21:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you think a drink might have drugs in it, DON'T DRINK IT or go buy your own drinks!

If you're so worried about going out that you're thinking about applying anti-rape nail polish, then bring a water bottle or get a friend you trust!

This isn't defence for women, it is over-the-top paranoia. It's not so much blaming the victim as creating victims of irrational fear.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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8/29/2014 4:22:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 2:44:29 PM, slo1 wrote:
I guess women shouldn't carry pepper spray because people shouldn't attack them.

I think the feminist crowd has lost their minds. There is nothing wrong with producing a tool which can help an individual woman protect herself.

Nail polish that detects a drug designed to knock out a woman is not the same thing as asking her to wear ugly cloths or put on a vaginal penis hook contraption. It is a tool to protect one's self like pepper spray is.

I just don't get how we got to the point where empowering women to take control and protect themselves by learning self defense, carrying pepper spray, remaining aware, asking for escort from security to walk to the car after staying late at work, etc got to be such a bad thing.

I guess the new model is to sit back and trust the state to make sure you are protected and don't concern yourself about your safety.

This is a good example of how the entire "victim" discussion derails true empowerment.

It doesn't have to do with "the state" or not taking reasonable precautions. Valenti is an activist and combatting incidences of rape is part of her cause therefore she seeks out cultural solutions. She, and many others including myself, view this nail polish as a band-aid. She wants the state involved and policy changes inasmuch as they allow more rapists to get a conviction- i.e. Maybe testing rape kits every now and then.

She isnt suggesting the guys who made it are terrible. She's not suggestig women walk about without considering that rapists exist. She's looking for a long-term, widespread solution. If anything, the biggest problem with her piece is that it verges on perfectionist fallacy- i.e. if it doesn't fix things on a large scale, then it isn't worth a damn.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/29/2014 4:44:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 2:43:31 PM, Enji wrote:
There's a difference between efforts to help women stay safe and putting the responsibility on women to avoid sexual assault. When well-intended advice like avoid getting drunk are viewed as saying that drunk girls deserve to be raped, there's a problem of communication.

Valenti is claiming that anti-rape nail polish implicitly endorses the suggestion that it's partly the victims fault that he/she is raped. I would disagree, but more relevantly I think opinions like this actually end up alienating well-meaning people from supporting feminist values and contribute to the incorrect perception of feminism as a radical women's movement. There's a tough balance between the point that rape is caused by people who choose to rape and not the choices of victims of rape one the one hand, and making people aware of factors related to rape (such as communicating consent) on the other; Valenti botches this balance in my opinion.

You're right; well put.

1) This post is very good.

2) COME ONE PEOPLE, TAKE SOMETHING THAT TRIES TO HELP YOU, DON'T PAT THEM ON THE HEAD WITH A "NICE TRY" LIKE THEY'RE SOME 3 YEAR OLD WHO DREW A STICK DOG.

*Devolves into strange crying and hysterical laughter*
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/29/2014 6:42:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:22:11 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 8/29/2014 2:44:29 PM, slo1 wrote:
I guess women shouldn't carry pepper spray because people shouldn't attack them.

I think the feminist crowd has lost their minds. There is nothing wrong with producing a tool which can help an individual woman protect herself.

Nail polish that detects a drug designed to knock out a woman is not the same thing as asking her to wear ugly cloths or put on a vaginal penis hook contraption. It is a tool to protect one's self like pepper spray is.

I just don't get how we got to the point where empowering women to take control and protect themselves by learning self defense, carrying pepper spray, remaining aware, asking for escort from security to walk to the car after staying late at work, etc got to be such a bad thing.

I guess the new model is to sit back and trust the state to make sure you are protected and don't concern yourself about your safety.

This is a good example of how the entire "victim" discussion derails true empowerment.

It doesn't have to do with "the state" or not taking reasonable precautions.

Valenti is an activist and combatting incidences of rape is part of her cause therefore she seeks out cultural solutions.

She, and many others including myself, view this nail polish as a band-aid.

The Fool : but you don't actually care about the suffering of woman. You so filled with hate, your not even concern with prevention.

Oryus: She wants the state involved and policy changes inasmuch as they allow more rapists to get a conviction- i.e. Maybe testing rape kits every now and then.

The Fool: Because you are just interesting in seeing rapist suffer. And you are both morally wrong.

Oryus: She isnt suggesting the guys who made it are terrible. She's not suggesting women walk about without considering that rapists exist.

Valenti: "appreciative that young men like want to curb sexual assault, but anything that puts the onus on women to"discreetly" keep from being raped misses the point.

The Fool: In other words, "I don"t really appreciate these young men, because they support victim blaming. Therefore these men are part of the problem.

Oryus: She's looking for a long-term, widespread solution. If anything, the biggest problem with her piece is that it verges on perfectionist fallacy- i.e. if it doesn't fix things on a large scale, then it isn't worth a damn.

The Fool: Regardless of any actual moral concern.

Against the Ideologist

You are a vile Creature.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL