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Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can't Trust You
Part 1

Garbanza: Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO.

The Black Knight: Really? Black opinions are not being heard on DDO.
Which women's opinions are you speaking for?
<(8D)

Either way, I believe it is a debate site, not simply an opinion site. For you are entitled to have or say your opinion, but whether or not you can support it is another thing. Personally, If you can smarten your as-s up and stop the compulsive lying, and provide proper quotes and references, to support your claims. But your history records not looking good, as you are also a compulsive liar. I believe nobody is beyond redemption. But your not looking too good.

Garbanza:I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

The Black Knight: [If, and only if], it is a True that woman"s opinions are not being heard on DDO, (which says nothing clear) , [then], it can be possible for people to care or not.

Secondly, you do realize that saying "this is not a thread to complain about it", doesn"t make it "not a thread to complain about it." I mean, that"s exactly what it sounds like you"re trying to do. And you've been a compulsive liar since you have been here.
<(8D)

Garbanza: Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case.

The Black Knight: We can only speculate on why it is the case If and only if, it is true, that it is in fact the case.
What opinions are strictly women's anyways?

Garbanza: I've just been reading about a very similar situation on Wikipedia.

Here's a good example of that happening:
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

The Black Knight: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and an Encyclopedia is a book of Facts, not simply opinions. Either way Wikipedia is not the same DDO, so the logical inference fails. These facts just don't relate.
<(89)

Garbanza:: Women don't feel welcome on Wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males.

The Black Knight: You speak as though "males" are a type of "infestation". Gee. I wonder why.

Garbanza: That's bad for the quality of information on Wikipedia.

The Black Knight: As in true or false? What type of information are you talking about?

Garbanza: Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down.

The Black Knight: In regard to hostility; welcome to the club.

In regards to being shut down; "is somebody disabling you from posting"? Are you being kicked out of threads?
How are you being "shut down" exactly?
<(8D)

Garbanza: I'm just curious about how other people see it.

The Black Knight: What exactly are "woman's" opinions In regards to DDO? It sounds like you"re gendering beliefs themselves as being male or female. Smells like Radical Feminism.

Garbanza: What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and Wikipedia? Is it inevitable?

The Black Knight: Loaded question fallacy. Wikipedia is not the same DDO.

Garbanza: What's going on exactly?

The Black Knight: In a debate you make a resolution(Thesis), and then defend or counter that resolution. It's competitive, and sometimes quite aggressive, a feature which generally attracts males as opposed to females. Secondly, men on average tend to have more factually argumentative conversations than women. Think "natural science, politics, economics, history and sports statistics." It"s a masculine trait. Further support is the high <the em>ratio of "homosexual" woman on DDO compared to the general population, and the tendency for feminine woman to either stick to forums, and/or creative debates rather then straight forward in your face factual debates.

Either way there is nothing more welcoming of women then a social arena overcrowded with males. I would love for there to be more women on DDO. However if a social media is overcrowded with males, it tends to generally be of male interest. There are many non-debate forums on the Internet which predominantly consist of females. And women generally dominate most other kind of social media, such as Facebook, tumbler, etc.

Against The Ideologist

Actually forget everything I said.
<(8O)

It's the Damn Patriarchy..
<(8D)

Dun, dun, dun,...
<(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Garbanza
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10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/6/2014 2:09:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

I think I understand. If someone's saying women's arguments don't have space here, then they should be EQUALLY arguing that men's arguments don't have space. Because if 99% of the posts are by men, they are not represented in the remaining 1%, whereas women aren't represented in the remaining 99%, and it's basically same problem!
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/6/2014 2:14:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 2:09:03 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Garbanza: I think I understand. If someone's saying women's arguments don't have space here, then they should be EQUALLY arguing that men's arguments don't have space.

The Fool: Nobody argued that woman's arguments don't have space here. What women, are you claiming to be representing when you say women's arguments? You do realize the feminist arguments are not necessarily women's arguments. Nor do they necessarily represent women's views but feminist views?

Garbanza: Because if 99% of the posts are by men, they are not represented in the remaining 1%, whereas women aren't represented in the remaining 99%, and it's basically same problem!

The Fool: It's not that kind of representing. There are no gendered arguments, only sound and unsound arguments.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/6/2014 3:24:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Major typo correction. " - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, ..."

should of course read: " - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political incorrectness, ..."
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/6/2014 3:31:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Btw, see this on the link between sexism, racism, and anti-communism, http://www.debate.org...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/6/2014 12:00:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can't Trust You
Part 2

Charleslb: Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc.

The Fool: Perhaps you are stereotyping just a little bit. It's almost like you can't tell the difference between fact and fiction. DDO is generally pro-feminist mob. It's clear in every single post on gender issues. They just have poor arguments. And people like yourself, don't even give arguments. You just make one unsupported claim after the next. You're willing to, side with the devil if it seems advantages in the moment. Either way, you've just recently began to not use the term "homophobe". Hypocrite.

Charleslb - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech;

The Fool: But for the most part, you're often just wrong. I used to think you were at least intellectually honest, but you've proven otherwise.

Charleslb: which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables.

The Fool: Or they are REAL minorities with legitimate criticisms.

Against The Ideologist

Rational people change their beliefs according to the new and/or dis-confirming information, but I cannot say the same for ideologues.

Can't trust em.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/6/2014 10:01:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Yet your profile says you are pro-abortion.

Just wow.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/6/2014 10:22:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 2:14:52 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: Nobody argued that woman's arguments don't have space here. What women, are you claiming to be representing when you say women's arguments? You do realize the feminist arguments are not necessarily women's arguments. Nor do they necessarily represent women's views but feminist views?

Nothing like that. I'm talking about actual women making actual posts on the sites. Women's arguments are defined as arguments made by women. I don't represent women, and often I dislike and am bored by arguments made by women, as is the case with arguments made by men. You've missed the point of the OP - which is about how discussions work and how people may feel excluded, and why - and I can't tell any more if you are being intentionally or deliberately obtuse.

Garbanza: Because if 99% of the posts are by men, they are not represented in the remaining 1%, whereas women aren't represented in the remaining 99%, and it's basically same problem!

The Fool: It's not that kind of representing. There are no gendered arguments, only sound and unsound arguments.

And yet, on that other thread, you said that you think Charleslb is a woman because of a comment he made. You are such a hypocrite.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/7/2014 2:34:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.

Do you think that the presence of those sorts of people discourages other people from participating? Or is it just that similar types of people like to group together, and this site just happens to have that type? Or is it something else?

Suburbs tend to segregate according to race or social type. I think that's something people do themselves, and maybe online, even though you can't see people, there's a self-segregation process based on styles of interacting maybe.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/7/2014 12:28:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM, charleslb wrote:

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.

Oh, Charles....
Care to explain how a person who believes the federal government is too large, and thus laws need to be eradicated, can possibly be pro-affirmative action in your book?
Dismantling a law does not mean they are opposed to the purpose of said law, but then again, people like us don't use the law as our moral compass.

Same goes for anti-gay and anti-feminism laws. Opposing a pay equality law does not mean an individual believes equal work does not merit equal pay, just that there shouldn't be a law about it. Same with marriage. Same with many other things.

However, yes, obviously, you do have people that want the law reversed for their own nefarious reasons, like being a racist or sexist. The views of less government tend to attract those that the government restricts behavior of.
My work here is, finally, done.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/7/2014 3:49:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:28:27 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM, charleslb wrote:

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.

Oh, Charles....
Care to explain how a person who believes the federal government is too large, and thus laws need to be eradicated, can possibly be pro-affirmative action in your book?
Dismantling a law does not mean they are opposed to the purpose of said law, but then again, people like us don't use the law as our moral compass.

Same goes for anti-gay and anti-feminism laws. Opposing a pay equality law does not mean an individual believes equal work does not merit equal pay, just that there shouldn't be a law about it. Same with marriage. Same with many other things.

However, yes, obviously, you do have people that want the law reversed for their own nefarious reasons, like being a racist or sexist. The views of less government tend to attract those that the government restricts behavior of.

Did I actually say that "libertarians" necessarily have a sexist and homophobic mentality, or that they have racialist hatred in their hearts? Nope, didn't make such an allegation at all. But they do have out-of-whack ideological priorities; they are reprehensibly opposed to using society's laws and legal system to prohibit racial and sexual discrimination; they do perversely put the alleged right of the business or property owner to perpetrate discrimination before concern about justice for, about protecting the civil rights of the innocent victims of discrimination; they are indeed obstacles to progress on social justice issues. Yes, the right-"libertarian" may not share the bigotry of others on the right, but he's no friend at all to those on the receiving end of sexist, heterosexism, and racial prejudice. The "libertarian", rather than standing in solidarity with victims and underdogs, out of poorly arranged ideological priorities links arms with conservative anti-feminists, gay bashers, and negrophobes. To borrow the words of Eldridge Cleaver, the "libertarian" is most definitely a part of the problem, not the solution.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/7/2014 3:52:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Typo correction. "... no friend at all to those on the receiving end of sexist, heterosexism, and racial prejudice." should read: "... no friend at all to those on the receiving end of sexism, heterosexism, and racial prejudice."
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/7/2014 4:52:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 2:34:55 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.

Do you think that the presence of those sorts of people discourages other people from participating? Or is it just that similar types of people like to group together, and this site just happens to have that type? Or is it something else?

Suburbs tend to segregate according to race or social type. I think that's something people do themselves, and maybe online, even though you can't see people, there's a self-segregation process based on styles of interacting maybe.

I have experience with a number of sites that are supposed to be politically nondenominational, i.e. open to people of all points of view, but have found that in most cases they're actually dominated by right-libertarians and other rightists. Rightist tend to have a certain (social dominator) cognitive orientation and psychological profile that seems to make them somewhat domineering on online political forums.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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10/7/2014 5:18:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is one of the many problems I have with the ridiculousness and sexist ideology that is feminism. I believe in an equality of OPPORTUNITY but NOT an equality of OUTCOME! If women do not choose to come to this site, then it's their own d@mn fault and the responsibility of no one but themselves. There is absolutely nothing at all that bars any woman from creating an account or posting on any forum as long as they follow the rules. Everyone here responds to the arguments that people make, but I haven't seen hardly any difference in how people are treated based on gender UNLESS it is actually relevant to the discussion. If we are actually talking about equality, then that means that women should not receive any "special" treatment to make them feel "welcome". This website is not meant for people who can't handle criticism and who can't handle heated discussions and to change this would change the entire purpose and intention of this website and therefor ruining it for everyone who actually chooses to be here.

I totally 100% agree that women should never be treated any worse than any man, but they sure as hell shouldn't be treated any better or have special consideration if we're talking about equality. No group, organization, or individual should ever have to adjust their behaviors to specifically suit women and their desires (again, if we are talking about equality). Policy change should be decided by the majority of the people who actually choose to take part in making their voices heard. Any person should realize that to have to change everyone's behaviors to better suit one gender or the other or to change policy to specifically cater to one gender or the other is inherently sexist. Unless any group actually has policies that apply to one gender or its members are specifically hostile to one gender in a way that they are not towards the other, then there is no sexism to be addressed.

I hold all men completely responsible for the decisions they make. If a man drops out of school, it's his own d@mn fault. If a man doesn't go to college, it's his own d@mn fault. If a man doesn't EARN a high paying job, it's his own d@mn fault. If a man chooses to belong to a group, function, or website that he doesn't like OR chooses not to belong to a group, function, or website that he really likes but he doesn't necessarily like all their policies, then guess what? It's still his own d@mn fault and no one should feel obligated to cater to him specifically. I believe in TRUE equality, so I give women the exact same treatment. All women (and men) need to just put on their big-girl panties/big-boy underwear and start accepting responsibility for their own lives. If someone doesn't get what they want in life, then IT'S THEIR OWN D@MN FAULT AND NO ONE ELSE'S! People should stop blaming other people for their own choices! This website does not treat men or women any differently and, for the most part, neither does its members. Men on this website are equally as hostile towards other men as they are towards women. All people deserve to have a voice and be heard, but it most definitely is their own responsibility whether or not they show up in the first place! I would feel totally differently if women were actually being barred from being here, but that most definitely is not the case.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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10/7/2014 5:29:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

I also wanted to mention that I take issue with this particular statement. By saying,"That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia" you are implying that men are somehow WORSE at giving quality information or that without women, men will automatically lie or misrepresent facts. If we are talking about TRUE equality, then that would mean that men and women are equally capable, equally intelligent, equally fair, equally thorough etc. If we are going to disregard gender in order to actually enact a state of TRUE equality, then there is no reason to believe that a group of men would inherently misrepresent facts or information in a way that a group of women would not. The idea that there is a problem that more men CHOOSE to engage in the editing of wikipedia than women, is inherently sexist and bigoted against men (not to mention that it is the responsibility of the individuals to choose what they will or will not do and it is no one else's). If women want to edit wikipedia, then they should do so (as some already do), but it is not your or my responsibility to try and FORCE or even encourage women to do something they do not choose or want for themselves nor RESTRICT or discourage men from doing the things that they choose as long as they aren't hurting anybody else. The very fact that you are segregating men and women in this way is still sexist and bigoted.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/7/2014 9:25:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 5:29:32 PM, neptune1bond wrote:

Na - there's so much you've misinterpreted, it'll take a long time to reply, but I'm a bit bored of discussing gender issues. Not your fault, but I keep needing to say the same things over and over and it really isn't that interesting. soooo thanks for your contribution I guess.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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10/7/2014 9:36:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 4:52:19 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/7/2014 2:34:55 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 3:20:20 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?

Well, the site has always seemed to be dominated by verbally aggressive young males of a right-"libertarian" or conservative persuasion, and these individuals also of course tend to be anti-feminist, as well as anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, etc. - all of which they intellectually-dishonestly couch in their self-flattering self-portrayal of being courageous champions of political correctness, of the right to engage in politically incorrect speech; which in turn allows them to claim to be victims of politically-correct feminists and minorities and to thereby turn the tables. Aren't they clever. Well, not really, it's all quite transparent.

Do you think that the presence of those sorts of people discourages other people from participating? Or is it just that similar types of people like to group together, and this site just happens to have that type? Or is it something else?

Suburbs tend to segregate according to race or social type. I think that's something people do themselves, and maybe online, even though you can't see people, there's a self-segregation process based on styles of interacting maybe.

I have experience with a number of sites that are supposed to be politically nondenominational, i.e. open to people of all points of view, but have found that in most cases they're actually dominated by right-libertarians and other rightists. Rightist tend to have a certain (social dominator) cognitive orientation and psychological profile that seems to make them somewhat domineering on online political forums.

Well that's it. That's exactly why I have concerns about communism because you always have particular types of people dominating whatever space it is. It always seems to happen that a particular group or type has control and other types are excluded. You say it's always rightists - in my experience it changes depending on the situation.

Sometimes it's not a bad thing, but sometimes it is really bad. Whenever I've raised the issue about female participation on DDO, for instance, 80% of the response is men saying it's not a problem, often quite angrily. I don't know if I'm right in interpreting that response as a kind of power move, but it seems like that on the surface - a dominant group maintaining dominance. The natural response to that, I think, is just avoidance. There are plenty of other places to go, and that is what most people would do, and that is why these cliques can easily maintain control over particular domains.

I suppose you would argue that when it really matters, people will fight back, but I don't think that history really supports that because injustices can be maintained for a long time.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/9/2014 12:14:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:01:24 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Yet your profile says you are pro-abortion.

Just wow.

The Fool: There are times when we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Sometimes that is abortion.. I have gotten a girl-friend pregnant before, and she had an ectopic pregnancy. That's when the egg and sperm fertilize in the Fallopian tube, instead of the womb. If you don't surgically remove pretty fast the fetus and the mother will surly die. She went into a deep depression after that because she had wanted to keep it so bad.

Against The Ideologist

I guess god works in mysterious ways.
<(89)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/9/2014 5:45:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:14:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:01:24 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Yet your profile says you are pro-abortion.

Just wow.

The Fool: There are times when we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Sometimes that is abortion.. I have gotten a girl-friend pregnant before, and she had an ectopic pregnancy. That's when the egg and sperm fertilize in the Fallopian tube, instead of the womb. If you don't surgically remove pretty fast the fetus and the mother will surly die. She went into a deep depression after that because she had wanted to keep it so bad.

Against The Ideologist

I guess god works in mysterious ways.
<(89)

So much for equality then. Huh.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/9/2014 6:13:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 9:36:25 PM, Garbanza wrote:

Well that's it. That's exactly why I have concerns about communism because you always have particular types of people dominating whatever space it is. It always seems to happen that a particular group or type has control and other types are excluded...

An intelligent point, but a concern that's not really all that well-founded, as you're overlooking the fundamental democratic dimension of a communist form of society. And the fact that democracy is certainly not simple majoritarianism, not "the tyranny of the majority" or "mob rule". Rather, authentic democracy would come complete with a bill of rights, as it were, codified principles designed to guarantee certain civil liberties and preclude them from being overridden by a majority vote. No, an authentically democratic & communistic society would not at all be likely to promptly degenerate into an oppressive collectivism (Recall that pre-communist Russia and other societies that reproduced the Soviet paradigm lacked any concept of democracy or tradition of respect for civil liberties, hence their rapid descent into collectivism, statism, and authoritarianism. Authoritarian collectivism is most certainly not the true form of communism!)
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/9/2014 8:53:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:45:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:14:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:01:24 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Yet your profile says you are pro-abortion.

Just wow.

The Fool: There are times when we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Sometimes that is abortion.. I have gotten a girl-friend pregnant before, and she had an ectopic pregnancy. That's when the egg and sperm fertilize in the Fallopian tube, instead of the womb. If you don't surgically remove pretty fast the fetus and the mother will surly die. She went into a deep depression after that because she had wanted to keep it so bad.

Against The Ideologist

I guess god works in mysterious ways.
<(89)

So much for equality then. Huh.

The Fool: I was referring to equality in regards to gender issues, most particularly "Moral" worth.

I don't know what you mean by equality in this sense.

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/9/2014 8:57:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:53:01 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/9/2014 5:45:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:14:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:01:24 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/6/2014 2:05:35 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:58:45 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/6/2014 1:00:48 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
so...are you saying...you're not a feminist? O.O

The Fool: NO, I'm pro-equality

Yet your profile says you are pro-abortion.

Just wow.

The Fool: There are times when we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Sometimes that is abortion.. I have gotten a girl-friend pregnant before, and she had an ectopic pregnancy. That's when the egg and sperm fertilize in the Fallopian tube, instead of the womb. If you don't surgically remove pretty fast the fetus and the mother will surly die. She went into a deep depression after that because she had wanted to keep it so bad.

Against The Ideologist

I guess god works in mysterious ways.
<(89)

So much for equality then. Huh.

The Fool: I was referring to equality in regards to gender issues, most particularly "Moral" worth.

I don't know what you mean by equality in this sense.

Against The Ideologist

Oh well, I dunno where to start....

An EQUAL right to the EQUAL protections of our laws and an EQUAL right to not have your life deprived except by Due Process, maybe?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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10/9/2014 9:38:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO. I understand that very few people care, and THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Instead, it's a thread to speculate about why that might be the case. I've just been reading about a very similar situation on wikipedia.

http://www.nytimes.com...
http://suegardner.org...

Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down. Here's a good example of that happening:

http://www.debate.org...

I'm just curious about how other people see it. What kind of dynamic is operating that excludes women from DDO and wikipedia? Is it inevitable? What's going on exactly?

I have an idea that might help... remind me and I'll relay it to you
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/10/2014 2:32:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can't Trust You
Part 4

Keeping Count

The Fool: Nobody argued that woman's arguments don't have space here. What women, are you claiming to be representing when you say women's arguments? You do realize the feminist arguments are not necessarily women's arguments. Nor do they necessarily represent women's views but feminist views?

Garbanza: Nothing like that. I'm talking about actual women making actual posts on the sites.

The Fool: My first responds was full of questions asking for clarification. All of which you avoided.
And 1

Secondly, I gave an argument which specifically pertained to that:

In a debate you make a resolution(Thesis), and then defend or counter that resolution. It's competitive, and sometimes quite aggressive, a feature which generally attracts males as opposed to females. (See the link for the rest. )
http://www.debate.org...
And 2

Garbanza: Women's arguments are defined as arguments made by women.

The Fool: You are just now changing your claim from "opinions" to "arguments".

RE:Garbanza: Women's opinions are not being heard here at DDO.
http://www.debate.org...
And 3

The Fool: And you're doing this to account for my argument which you claiming has NO RELATION.

In a debate you make a resolution(Thesis), and then defend or counter that resolution.
http://www.debate.org...
And 4

Garbanza: I don't represent women, .

The Fool: Well you claimed woman don't feel welcome on DDO because it is overrun by youngish males.

RE:"Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males"
http://www.debate.org...
And 5

Garbanza: "and often I dislike and am bored by arguments made by women, as is the case with arguments made by men."
And 6

The Fool: So your bored with debating sites then?
<(89)
RE:men on average tend to have more "factually" argumentative conversations than women."
And 7

Garbanza: You've missed the point of the OP

The Fool: And 8
<(8D)

Garbanza:- which is about how discussions work and how people may feel excluded,

The Fool: It was about many things, but there is not ONE reference in regards to how discussion works in the OP. Check it for yourself. You have come a long way from that woman'ss opinion ought and are not being heard on DDO.
And 7

And there is a big difference between feeling and being unwelcomed.
And 8

You also claimed that have been "shut down" on DDO??
:RE:Garbanza::Personally, on this site, I feel welcome until I try to express an opinion and then I feel the hostility rises and I get shut down.:

Or perhaps you just lied. Again:
And 9

Garbanza:- and I can't tell any more if you are being intentionally or deliberately obtuse.

The Fool: Your views are so threatened by my arguments that a good portion of your posts have been reactions to try and get around them and this post is no exception. Three hours before I post this:

AT 10/5/2014 4:38:29 AM
The Fool: Feminist often troll or sabotage the MRM Wikipedia page so it's not consistent. They will write that it's a hate group, or terrorist group, that its misogynist or rape apologist. Etc. But it looks ok for now.

http://www.debate.org...

AT 10/5/2014 7:42:51 PM
Garbanza: Women don't feel welcome on wikipedia and they don't stay and the site is overrun by youngish males. Just as it is here! That's bad for the quality of information on wikipedia.

The Fool: Besides your sources are weak, and you forgot the mention the CRITICAL fact that Feminist woman do most of the writing on Wikipedia concerning GENDER ISSUES.
And 10

Against The Ideologist

10-0 for the good guys.
<(8D)

(To be Continued)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Garbanza
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10/10/2014 5:14:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 2:32:44 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Can't Trust You

You can't trust me because I'm an anonymous internet person who talks a bit too much about castration. Good instincts there, cookie. (I wrote foolie, but my phone prefers cookie so that's going to be my new name for you)

This thread is not an argument. It's about something I'm puzzled by, and I was hoping people could help me understand it. I may not have explained that well enough in the op and so I tried to explain it again later. Forums are different from debates. You can change your mind and put forward unfinished ideas in the forums for discussion in a way you can't with debates.

If you want to debate something, send me a challenge. These sorts of semantic attacks are okay in debates, but kinda tedious in the forums. That's my view anyway.

I didn't know you'd made a comment in another thread about gender and Wikipedia a few minutes before I started this one. I didn't see it and it's just coincidence.