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Economic Inequality

PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 1:24:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In the USA, the national debate over Economic Inequality has been steadily intensifying. Protests are becoming more widespread, politicians have taken up the issue and are campaigning on all facets of the discussion, and lobbyists on both sides are scrambling to submit and support legislation on the issue. While it has been happening for decades, this issue has been particularly underlined since the global recession that began in late 2008. It sparked the Occupy movement, became a crucial plank in both major political parties, and drives the political engine of countless offshoots.

The debate is spurred by a relatively simple argument. Pro-Equality activists highlight the fact that the richest block of the populous, a segment that is often arbitrarily defined as the richest 1%, 3%, 5%, or 7% depending on the type of argument being made, is getting richer at an accelerating rate. The arguments often cite statistics like "The richest 1% increased their wealth by 31% this year while the bottom 99% increased by only 1%" or similar statements. They contrast this assertion with another, the idea that the poor are not getting better or are in fact getting worse, in order to lend their argument more depth. An example of a common point used to support this idea is that "The bottom 90% of Americans saw their income decrease in the past year" or that unemployment is still at a high, or similar arguments. These arguments are very widespread, and serve as the rallying point for people demanding a raise in wages, higher taxes on major corporations, and more benefits for the unemployed.

, I will make a few assertions that some people might find upsetting, and I certainly expect to lose a lot of respect for my views on this subject. First, I assert that economic equality is a bad thing. In a society where one segment of the populous is not significantly richer than another segment of the populous, money will cease to flow and the economics will stagnate. Incentive to progress will disappear, because there is nothing towards which one can progress. In a world of relative economic equality, the person who invested years of their life and hard work in an advanced, skilled profession will not be much better of that someone who flunked out of high school and didn't so anything significant with their lives. In my mind, not only is that counterproductive from a utilitarian perspective, it is also a horrible injustice. If a society adopted this economic structure, then their professionals, intellectuals, and skilled workers will end up leaving and going to a place where there is a competitive economic structure. The only way that society could fix this issue would be to dictate jobs and prevent professionals from leaving, a course of action that has been shown by history to be utterly ineffective. Second, I assert that economic inequality is a good thing. A society that is economically unequal is a society that rewards people according to their efforts and choices. In an economically unequal society, I want to work harder and be a more productive member of society because I have an economic incentive for doing so. In an economically unequal society, I will willingly invest my time and effort in pursuing a college degree because I know that in doing so I will be better off than one who did not pursue that path. A society that follows this economic model will become a destination for people who are skilled and accomplished in their respective fields because it offers a competitive environment for economic progression. My third and final assertion is that economic inequality is decreasing, not increasing. If one were to look at standard of living, which is the variable that actually matters as opposed to actual income, the richest segment of the population is relatively stagnant. The standard of living for the poor, however, is rapidly rising.

After explaining my views on economic inequality, I will say one last thing. While I do not believe in economic inequality, I do believe in the fundamental right of opportunity. I believe that everyone, no matter their nationality, religion, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, or socio-economic standing, has a fundamental right to opportunity. A major problem in our society today is not that the poorest part of our people are poor, but that they have no access to opportunity. This can be addressed via education, ensuring that everyone knows how to access the resources that are available to them, and by establishing programs designed to provide those resources at little or no cost.
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PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.

Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.
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EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 3:02:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.

I would agree were you to say that what exists in america is wealth inequality. As it stands, Americans at the poverty line can get by and still have the time and resources to pursue a better livelihood. If an american lives well below the poverty line and is struggling, there are programs and opportunities to help them climb out.
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EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:02:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.

I would agree were you to say that what exists in america is wealth inequality. As it stands, Americans at the poverty line can get by and still have the time and resources to pursue a better livelihood. If an american lives well below the poverty line and is struggling, there are programs and opportunities to help them climb out.

There really aren't.
The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

http://money.cnn.com...
PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 3:06:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:02:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.

I would agree were you to say that what exists in america is wealth inequality. As it stands, Americans at the poverty line can get by and still have the time and resources to pursue a better livelihood. If an american lives well below the poverty line and is struggling, there are programs and opportunities to help them climb out.

There really aren't.
The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

http://money.cnn.com...

But why is it completely absurd? Did the average employee not have the opportunity in life to become a CEO?
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EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:06:45 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:02:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.

I would agree were you to say that what exists in america is wealth inequality. As it stands, Americans at the poverty line can get by and still have the time and resources to pursue a better livelihood. If an american lives well below the poverty line and is struggling, there are programs and opportunities to help them climb out.

There really aren't.
The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

http://money.cnn.com...

But why is it completely absurd? Did the average employee not have the opportunity in life to become a CEO?

No. He/she didn't. Nor does a CEO do enough to deserve taking in such an income.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 3:22:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:06:45 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:02:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:59:03 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:38:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:16:21 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Quite frankly, I don't care what 0.000000125% of Americans think. I care about being economically fair.

That said, I have four problems with the video you posted.

1. This video did not provide any evidence. It simply makes assertions, and hopes that the viewers will take them for their word.

2. This video provided no context for these numbers. So what if the richest 1% is so much wealthier that the poorest? Why is that a bad thing?

3. This video deliberately misrepresented fact. They did not state that the poorest people today are exponentially richer than they were 20-30 years ago. They used scale gimmicks to exaggerate the distribution in the minds of their viewers.

4. They used data on wealth inequality to make an argument about income inequality, and made claims about standard inequality using the same numbers. They did not distinguish between them, when they are three completely independent issues that cannot be confused. They used this mix up to present essentially fabricated information in an attempt to appeal to the emotions of their viewers.


Do you have any arguments, comments, or criticisms to present? I find it rather disingenuous when a debater simply presents someone else to do their arguing for them.

The essential problem is that economic inequality is a good thing but what exists in America is extreme economic inequality, and this is a terrible thing.

I would agree were you to say that what exists in america is wealth inequality. As it stands, Americans at the poverty line can get by and still have the time and resources to pursue a better livelihood. If an american lives well below the poverty line and is struggling, there are programs and opportunities to help them climb out.

There really aren't.
The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

http://money.cnn.com...

But why is it completely absurd? Did the average employee not have the opportunity in life to become a CEO?

No. He/she didn't. Nor does a CEO do enough to deserve taking in such an income.

If he/she is an average american employee, then he/she had the opportunity and did not take it. Second, who is to decide who deserves what pay?
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PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.
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EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school, worked incredibly hard to graduate, **went off to college, studied what they liked rather than what was practical (as one SHOULD do) what was super saturating the job market and would eventually lead to a massive bust, worked hard in college, continued finding part-time jobs and scholarships to support themselves, tried and failed in building a reputable network or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied, and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

**workers who didn't go to college skip to the last step.
Khaos_Mage
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10/12/2014 4:34:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

You are aware that this stat is based on the AVERAGE (or is it median) salary of an American, while comparing it to the average of only 299 CEOs.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are more than 300 companies, especially, since these 299 are part of the S & P 500.
Also, this figure does not take into account the amount the employees of those particular company makes.

I saw somewhere that the CEO of Apple makes some 6,000x more than the average employ of Apple, but the average wage was still some $70K.

Target, where average wage was cheaper, was more around 1,000x.

Also, what is never seemingly compared in these stats is total compensation, only wages for the worker vs. total compensation.
For example: insurance, perks, stock options (which actually cost money, and only count as income if sold), and obviously salary and bonuses.
Did you know that my employer pays me $12/hr, but if I factor in PTO, 401k matching and insurance, it is actually closer to $14.71/hr. This also, distorts the figures, and is highly variable. (for example, next month, my pay will increase an additional 11 cents per hour due to 2 extra PTO days)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

http://money.cnn.com...
My work here is, finally, done.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 4:38:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

Second, as for inheriting wealth, only eight percent of America's millionaires inherited their money. Around 85% built themselves up from the lower-middle or labor classes.

The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

worked incredibly hard to graduate

Most highschoolers dont work hard.

went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

studied what they liked rather than what was practically (as one SHOULD do) what was super saturating the job market and would eventually lead to a massive bust,

I agree that this is what they should do. But you forget that this is not the average worker. Most people don't go to college. as for the ones that do, there are always jobs available for college graduates. In America, their are more empty jobs than there are unemployed, people simply dont want to do them because they are not in the "right feild" or "right Area".

worked hard in college, continued finding part-time jobs and scholarships to support themselves,

Just like the average CEO.

tried and failed in building a reputable network

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.

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EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 4:51:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 4:38:58 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility. Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves. Obama's "you didn't build that" speech is perhaps one of the only things I respect about him because IT is what's true.

Second, as for inheriting wealth, only eight percent of America's millionaires inherited their money. Around 85% built themselves up from the lower-middle or labor classes.

False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

worked incredibly hard to graduate

Most highschoolers dont work hard.

Disagree.

went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...


studied what they liked rather than what was practically (as one SHOULD do) what was super saturating the job market and would eventually lead to a massive bust,

I agree that this is what they should do. But you forget that this is not the average worker. Most people don't go to college. as for the ones that do, there are always jobs available for college graduates. In America, their are more empty jobs than there are unemployed, people simply dont want to do them because they are not in the "right feild" or "right Area".

worked hard in college, continued finding part-time jobs and scholarships to support themselves,

Just like the average CEO.

tried and failed in building a reputable network

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...
PotBelliedGeek
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10/12/2014 5:33:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 4:51:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:38:58 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility.
Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves.

Leftist political propaganda.

My number was wrong.
67% of American millionaires built themselves up from lower-middle and labor classes.

8% of millionaires inherited their wealth.

One third of them are women. One third of them are immigrants.

54% of them have college degrees.

8% of them have nothing but a high school diploma.

https://www.bmo.com...

Obama's "you didn't build that" speech is perhaps one of the only things I respect about him because IT is what's true.

Second, as for inheriting wealth, only eight percent of America's millionaires inherited their money. Around 85% built themselves up from the lower-middle or labor classes.

False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

Demonstrably false. The thing with making these kinds of assertions is that this can be measured, and it already has. I have already provided evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of this, and I can also provide many, many anecdotes, myself included.


http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

Both of these are opinion pieces from leftist leaning publishers. Dont give me opinion, give me raw data. I used to be a biologist, I can interpret data myself.

The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

These are all students, from grad school down to high school. This is a mixed statistic, and cannot support your assertion. You are smart enough to realize this.

worked incredibly hard to graduate

Most highschoolers dont work hard.

Disagree.

Again, the thing with these facts is that they are numerical, they can be empirically measured. What you think based on the students you encounter doesn't really count. The average GPA of American students is 2.9. If someone comes out of high school with a GPA of 2.9, they either didn't work hard enough or they have a learning disability.

went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...

I stand corrected.



studied what they liked rather than what was practically (as one SHOULD do) what was super saturating the job market and would eventually lead to a massive bust,

I agree that this is what they should do. But you forget that this is not the average worker. Most people don't go to college. as for the ones that do, there are always jobs available for college graduates. In America, their are more empty jobs than there are unemployed, people simply dont want to do them because they are not in the "right feild" or "right Area".

worked hard in college, continued finding part-time jobs and scholarships to support themselves,

Just like the average CEO.

tried and failed in building a reputable network

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

BoP reversal. You assert that the average college student forms or tries to form a network of connections in the field they are going into. You need to prove it. As for my part, I am a volunteer mentor for freshmen students, and one of the crucial issues they teach us before doing this is that the average student does nothing of the kind, and it is my job to try and help them do it.

or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

Bachelors degree, yes. Well above minimum wage. Like I said, give me a degree, I will link to a job opening in the field.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...

You might want to read your own sources. This says that the all time high in part time work was 18%. A far cry from "average".
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10/12/2014 5:37:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 4:34:04 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

You are aware that this stat is based on the AVERAGE (or is it median) salary of an American, while comparing it to the average of only 299 CEOs.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are more than 300 companies, especially, since these 299 are part of the S & P 500.
Also, this figure does not take into account the amount the employees of those particular company makes.

I saw somewhere that the CEO of Apple makes some 6,000x more than the average employ of Apple, but the average wage was still some $70K.

Are you telling me that the "geeks" at Apple stores make more than police officers? I know where I'm working this summer.
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10/12/2014 5:44:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 5:37:51 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:34:04 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:05:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

The points made in the video are all substantiated (if not inside the video).
For instance, it's completely absurd that a CEO makes 340x what his average employee makes.

You are aware that this stat is based on the AVERAGE (or is it median) salary of an American, while comparing it to the average of only 299 CEOs.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are more than 300 companies, especially, since these 299 are part of the S & P 500.
Also, this figure does not take into account the amount the employees of those particular company makes.

I saw somewhere that the CEO of Apple makes some 6,000x more than the average employ of Apple, but the average wage was still some $70K.

Are you telling me that the "geeks" at Apple stores make more than police officers? I know where I'm working this summer.

Do they make more than police? I don't know.
Also, this is a measure of average (or median) wages.
This includes programmers.

I do not know the average wage of an apple clerk. I'd assume it is around $10-12/hr, but who knows. Also, it is entirely possible this figure was focused on Apple Inc, and not it's subsidiaries (apple store).

The point of me mentioning this is that when comparing employees of the same company to the CEO of said company, you get very mixed results. Apple was 6,000x, most retail CEOs were 200-1,000, and there were quite a few that were under 100x.
If memory serves, Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffet's company) is a ratio of 43:1.
My work here is, finally, done.
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10/12/2014 6:14:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 5:33:21 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:51:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:38:58 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility.
Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves.

Leftist political propaganda.

When you've resorted to calling it that, I'm writing you off. Didn't fancy you for a tea-party crazy, Pots.

My number was wrong.
67% of American millionaires built themselves up from lower-middle and labor classes.

8% of millionaires inherited their wealth.

http://inequality.org...

One third of them are women. One third of them are immigrants.

54% of them have college degrees.

8% of them have nothing but a high school diploma.

https://www.bmo.com...


False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

Demonstrably false. The thing with making these kinds of assertions is that this can be measured, and it already has. I have already provided evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of this, and I can also provide many, many anecdotes, myself included.

You have not, and persona anecdotes aren't evidence. Even conservative estimates place the probability of a poor-middle class boundary crossing at less than 10%.


http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

Both of these are opinion pieces from leftist leaning publishers. Dont give me opinion, give me raw data. I used to be a biologist, I can interpret data myself.

http://www.nytimes.com...


The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

These are all students, from grad school down to high school. This is a mixed statistic, and cannot support your assertion. You are smart enough to realize this.

"high school and college"

worked incredibly hard to graduate

Most highschoolers dont work hard.

Disagree.

Again, the thing with these facts is that they are numerical, they can be empirically measured. What you think based on the students you encounter doesn't really count. The average GPA of American students is 2.9. If someone comes out of high school with a GPA of 2.9, they either didn't work hard enough or they have a learning disability.

Or, you know, they weren't provided very good educational opportunities. Common core. Standardized testing.

went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...

I stand corrected.

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

BoP reversal. You assert that the average college student forms or tries to form a network of connections in the field they are going into. You need to prove it. As for my part, I am a volunteer mentor for freshmen students, and one of the crucial issues they teach us before doing this is that the average student does nothing of the kind, and it is my job to try and help them do it.

Not a BoP reversal. You asserted "almost no one does." That's your bit to fulfill. Tricky, since there really isn't data for % of college students building connections.

or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

Bachelors degree, yes. Well above minimum wage. Like I said, give me a degree, I will link to a job opening in the field.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...

You might want to read your own sources. This says that the all time high in part time work was 18%. A far cry from "average".

Not relevant to the point I was disproving.
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10/12/2014 6:26:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:14:07 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:33:21 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:51:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:38:58 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:55:50 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:33:04 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 3:09:52 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Let me put it to you this way. The CEO is a CEO because he worked hard in school to get good grades, got a scholarship because of those good grades, chose to go into business management, pursued that while investing time in forming a network of individuals who could point him in the right direction, used his education and network to secure a corporate position, worked hard and made himself invaluable to the company, thus lining himself up for the CEO position.

The average american worker does not work hard in high school, many of them go out of their way to belittle the ones that do work hard in school. After high school, if they choose to go to college then they go to a low caliber school because of their grades in high school, most of them will choose a liberal arts major, and most of them will choose to enjoy a social life in college as opposed to lining themselves up for graduate school and building a crucial network of people.

And this certainly happens, but I disagree that this is the majority of cases.

The average CEO was born well-off, raised well, went to a good school, studied hard, got good grades, lucked his way into finding a job/had it awarded to him by a spoils rather than a merit system, and lucked his way from there. Or just took over daddy's business.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility.
Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves.

Leftist political propaganda.

When you've resorted to calling it that, I'm writing you off. Didn't fancy you for a tea-party crazy, Pots.

I am a liberal, but that does mean that the left doesnt spout false propaganda, and that doesnt mean that I cant call BS when I see it.


My number was wrong.
67% of American millionaires built themselves up from lower-middle and labor classes.

8% of millionaires inherited their wealth.

http://inequality.org...

One third of them are women. One third of them are immigrants.

54% of them have college degrees.

8% of them have nothing but a high school diploma.

https://www.bmo.com...


False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

Demonstrably false. The thing with making these kinds of assertions is that this can be measured, and it already has. I have already provided evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of this, and I can also provide many, many anecdotes, myself included.

You have not, and persona anecdotes aren't evidence. Even conservative estimates place the probability of a poor-middle class boundary crossing at less than 10%.

I have already, please review my links. Second, I did not offer anecdote as evidence, I offered anecdote as support to a provided statistic.



http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

Both of these are opinion pieces from leftist leaning publishers. Dont give me opinion, give me raw data. I used to be a biologist, I can interpret data myself.

http://www.nytimes.com...



The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

These are all students, from grad school down to high school. This is a mixed statistic, and cannot support your assertion. You are smart enough to realize this.

"high school and college"

worked incredibly hard to graduate

Most highschoolers dont work hard.

Disagree.

Again, the thing with these facts is that they are numerical, they can be empirically measured. What you think based on the students you encounter doesn't really count. The average GPA of American students is 2.9. If someone comes out of high school with a GPA of 2.9, they either didn't work hard enough or they have a learning disability.

Or, you know, they weren't provided very good educational opportunities. Common core. Standardized testing.

That falls under right of opportunity. But most people in the US are afforded decent educational opportunity, and if they are not, then it is possible to make due without and still succeed.


went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...

I stand corrected.

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

BoP reversal. You assert that the average college student forms or tries to form a network of connections in the field they are going into. You need to prove it. As for my part, I am a volunteer mentor for freshmen students, and one of the crucial issues they teach us before doing this is that the average student does nothing of the kind, and it is my job to try and help them do it.

Not a BoP reversal. You asserted "almost no one does." That's your bit to fulfill. Tricky, since there really isn't data for % of college students building connections.

No, it is a BoP reversal. You asserted that most do. Positive assertion, you need to provide evidence. You are asserting that an event occurs. You need to prove it.


or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

Bachelors degree, yes. Well above minimum wage. Like I said, give me a degree, I will link to a job opening in the field.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...

You might want to read your own sources. This says that the all time high in part time work was 18%. A far cry from "average".

Not relevant to the point I was disproving.

Very relevant. You claimed that the average college grad ends up working 2-3 part time jobs. Your source says that only
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10/12/2014 6:28:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:15:24 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I guess I'm just surprised that Pots is in here spouting Tea-Party rhetoric about the self-made man. Pots, of all people.

Dont straw man my argument. Refute my numbers. Prove me wrong endark, you are smart enough not to have to resort to logical fallacy.
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10/12/2014 6:45:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:22:56 PM, Raisor wrote:
I would take Pro on a Rez something like

"On balance, the wealth distribution in the us is undesirable"

Can you reword this? I cant tell if you mean the current wealth distribution, or the proposed one. Also, undesirable is too subjective.
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10/12/2014 7:00:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Health inequality, in some regards, is decreasing largely due to measures taken by the Obama administration and Democrats in Congress. The Affordable Care Act is perhaps the single greatest expansion of the social safety net since the Johnson Administration.

Other areas of inequality continue to grow...

(More substantive post in response to this to follow)
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10/12/2014 7:12:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:26:10 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility.
Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves.

Leftist political propaganda.

When you've resorted to calling it that, I'm writing you off. Didn't fancy you for a tea-party crazy, Pots.

I am a liberal, but that does mean that the left doesnt spout false propaganda, and that doesnt mean that I cant call BS when I see it.

Still writing you off for this absurd response.


My number was wrong.
67% of American millionaires built themselves up from lower-middle and labor classes.

8% of millionaires inherited their wealth.

http://inequality.org...

One third of them are women. One third of them are immigrants.

54% of them have college degrees.

8% of them have nothing but a high school diploma.

https://www.bmo.com...


False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

Demonstrably false. The thing with making these kinds of assertions is that this can be measured, and it already has. I have already provided evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of this, and I can also provide many, many anecdotes, myself included.

You have not, and persona anecdotes aren't evidence. Even conservative estimates place the probability of a poor-middle class boundary crossing at less than 10%.

I have already, please review my links. Second, I did not offer anecdote as evidence, I offered anecdote as support to a provided statistic.

And I've provided more than enough reputable statistics as well. Guess we're stuck.

http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

Both of these are opinion pieces from leftist leaning publishers. Dont give me opinion, give me raw data. I used to be a biologist, I can interpret data myself.

http://www.nytimes.com...



The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

Again, the thing with these facts is that they are numerical, they can be empirically measured. What you think based on the students you encounter doesn't really count. The average GPA of American students is 2.9. If someone comes out of high school with a GPA of 2.9, they either didn't work hard enough or they have a learning disability.

Or, you know, they weren't provided very good educational opportunities. Common core. Standardized testing.

That falls under right of opportunity. But most people in the US are afforded decent educational opportunity, and if they are not, then it is possible to make due without and still succeed.

No. Most people are not afforded decent educational opportunity. What about the huge push for (insanely expensive) private schools? What about politicized education? http://www.nytimes.com...

What about inner-city and minority students?

Right-wing propaganda.
See how silly it sounds?


went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...

I stand corrected.

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

BoP reversal. You assert that the average college student forms or tries to form a network of connections in the field they are going into. You need to prove it. As for my part, I am a volunteer mentor for freshmen students, and one of the crucial issues they teach us before doing this is that the average student does nothing of the kind, and it is my job to try and help them do it.

Not a BoP reversal. You asserted "almost no one does." That's your bit to fulfill. Tricky, since there really isn't data for % of college students building connections.

No, it is a BoP reversal. You asserted that most do. Positive assertion, you need to provide evidence. You are asserting that an event occurs. You need to prove it.

That's rather stupid, Pots. I can't say "no one's ever been run over by a car," and then expect that claim to fly because I don't have to prove it.


or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

Bachelors degree, yes. Well above minimum wage. Like I said, give me a degree, I will link to a job opening in the field.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...
EndarkenedRationalist
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10/12/2014 7:22:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:28:58 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:15:24 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I guess I'm just surprised that Pots is in here spouting Tea-Party rhetoric about the self-made man. Pots, of all people.

Dont straw man my argument. Refute my numbers. Prove me wrong endark, you are smart enough not to have to resort to logical fallacy.

I wasn't trying to straw-man you here. I genuinely was surprised.
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10/12/2014 8:52:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 7:12:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:26:10 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote.

Incorrect. If you follow the steps I laid out, I guarantee that you will be successful.

This is blatantly untrue and the biggest falsehood you have perpetrated in this entire thread. Americans love to romanctise the"self-made" man even though ALL the evidence is against this possibility.
Most people CANNOT build themselves from the ground up. NOBODY'S success is owed to themselves.

Leftist political propaganda.

When you've resorted to calling it that, I'm writing you off. Didn't fancy you for a tea-party crazy, Pots.

I am a liberal, but that does mean that the left doesnt spout false propaganda, and that doesnt mean that I cant call BS when I see it.

Still writing you off for this absurd response.
Very well.



My number was wrong.
67% of American millionaires built themselves up from lower-middle and labor classes.

8% of millionaires inherited their wealth.

http://inequality.org...

One third of them are women. One third of them are immigrants.

54% of them have college degrees.

8% of them have nothing but a high school diploma.

https://www.bmo.com...


False. There is practically no class permeability because of the income disparity.

Demonstrably false. The thing with making these kinds of assertions is that this can be measured, and it already has. I have already provided evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of this, and I can also provide many, many anecdotes, myself included.

You have not, and persona anecdotes aren't evidence. Even conservative estimates place the probability of a poor-middle class boundary crossing at less than 10%.

I have already, please review my links. Second, I did not offer anecdote as evidence, I offered anecdote as support to a provided statistic.

And I've provided more than enough reputable statistics as well. Guess we're stuck.

I guess we are. Please not that I am not trying to scuttle social safety nets, I think that they are crucial to maintaining a competitive economy. I am asserting that so long as the lower class worker can get by, then no one should be complaining about how much a rich person makes. Their money, their business, not ours.


http://billmoyers.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

Both of these are opinion pieces from leftist leaning publishers. Dont give me opinion, give me raw data. I used to be a biologist, I can interpret data myself.

http://www.nytimes.com...



The average worker was born into a poor or middle class family, took on part-time jobs during high school

Most high schoolers do not take on part time work.

80% of students (high school and college) work

http://thinkprogress.org...

Again, the thing with these facts is that they are numerical, they can be empirically measured. What you think based on the students you encounter doesn't really count. The average GPA of American students is 2.9. If someone comes out of high school with a GPA of 2.9, they either didn't work hard enough or they have a learning disability.

Or, you know, they weren't provided very good educational opportunities. Common core. Standardized testing.

That falls under right of opportunity. But most people in the US are afforded decent educational opportunity, and if they are not, then it is possible to make due without and still succeed.

No. Most people are not afforded decent educational opportunity. What about the huge push for (insanely expensive) private schools? What about politicized education? http://www.nytimes.com...

Are you saying that the American public school system is not a decent shot at education? That is a pretty hefty stance. I would have loved the opportunity to attend a public school, but thanks to over-religious parents, I was never afforded the luxury. I had a fourth grade education till i was fourteen, when I started teaching myself. Now I am more educated that 99% of the American populous.


What about inner-city and minority students?

We invest in providing them the resources they need in order to have a decent shot at success for little to no cost. We educate them about how they can access and use those resources. This was addressed in the OP.

Right-wing propaganda.
See how silly it sounds?

Can you specify? What exactly is right wing propaganda?



went off to college,

most high schoolers dont go to college.

False. Almost 2/3rds do, and most of the others are looking for work.

http://www.bls.gov...

I stand corrected.

Almost no one in college builds a network in the field that they are studying. Stop making things up.

Prove it.

BoP reversal. You assert that the average college student forms or tries to form a network of connections in the field they are going into. You need to prove it. As for my part, I am a volunteer mentor for freshmen students, and one of the crucial issues they teach us before doing this is that the average student does nothing of the kind, and it is my job to try and help them do it.

Not a BoP reversal. You asserted "almost no one does." That's your bit to fulfill. Tricky, since there really isn't data for % of college students building connections.

No, it is a BoP reversal. You asserted that most do. Positive assertion, you need to provide evidence. You are asserting that an event occurs. You need to prove it.

That's rather stupid, Pots. I can't say "no one's ever been run over by a car," and then expect that claim to fly because I don't have to prove it.

Reducto Ad Absurdum. Another fallacy. BoP is on you. You made the argument that most college kids form crucial networks in the field they are going into. You have to support it. Just because I disagree doesn't automatically shift BoP to me.


or did and were just continually passed over by chance, graduated, tried over and over and over again to find decent jobs but were denied

Like I said, if one has a college degree, there are always jobs available. Give me a degree, I will find that person a job in said field. Any degree.

Above minimum wage?

Bachelors degree, yes. Well above minimum wage. Like I said, give me a degree, I will link to a job opening in the field.

and eventually ended up working 3 part-time jobs - much harder than any CEO works - just to put bread on the table.

But your average employee does not work three part time jobs, they work one full time job. Like I said, stop making things up.


Wrong again

http://www.advisorperspectives.com...
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10/13/2014 7:52:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
While I generally agree with the OP and see no inherent problem with economic inequality, I don't think that it is cross-culturally applicable. The U.S. is a unique case because of its incredible optimism- we see huge amounts of lower income people voting not to increase taxes on the wealthy because they envision themselves being up there some day, and I would contend that given the right motivation and skills in how to deal with people and how to learn effectively, it's a very real possibility for them. Many other countries, however, have generally pessimistic, status quo rather than future based mindsets where economic inequality can create huge social problems.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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