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Illegal to be forced to be a HS dropout?

TheINFJNala
Posts: 47
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10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!
Df0512
Posts: 966
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10/18/2014 11:07:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

First of all let me just say, if you truly have autism, you have just made my day, no month, possibly my year. My 4 year old has autism, and he can't even speak. And I have to say, I didn't really know what to expect of his future. But if this is the result of hard work, I can definitely look for great things out of my own son in the future. Very inspiring for me.

I don't know if it's legal or not. In fact I don't think it is. Maybe they plan on home schooling you because they expect more out of you. It could be that they don't believe the school is the right fit for your type of learning and your grade are a result of that. It does seem a bit odd. I personally wouldn't sacrifice the social aspect for a better grade considering. But then I'm not your dad. They may have more in store for you.
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.
Tsar of DDO
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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10/19/2014 5:59:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You really need to look up the "school attendance laws" in your state, but according to this link I found:

" The rules vary slightly from state to state. In most states, parents who fail to send their children to school may be charged with education neglect. Consequences include community service hours, counseling, and/or jail. There are a few exceptions to the general attendance laws."

It seems from what I've found that parents actually have a legal obligation to keep you in school until graduation (there also seems to be exceptions to that obligation if you can be considered an "incorrigible child" by law, I don't know what other exceptions there might be and whether or not your autism is a factor in this and whether or not that changes your parents obligations by law). The question, though, is whether or not you are willing to report your parents to your school or the law for withholding you from school and what are the consequences of doing so, or if you're just simply wanting to find out so that you can inform your parents that they are indeed doing something illegal if they choose to withhold you from school. Nonetheless, it is completely immoral (and illegal) for them to keep you from an education and ruin your future potential and standard of living, especially against your will. What an incredibly destructive and irresponsible thing to do to your own child!

Btw, here is the link to that website:
http://www.askthejudge.info...

Again, you really should look up the laws in your own state specifically.
TheINFJNala
Posts: 47
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10/19/2014 6:18:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.

I didn't mean get a GED and be done. I meant get a GED, go to CC, then transfer to uni

Are you even educated about autism?

Maybe society doesn't care. But they should.

And how is this primarily MY fault?

What part of "I may be FORCED by my parents to drop out of high school" do you not understand?

Why do people blame the teenager in so many situations?
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/19/2014 11:15:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 6:18:38 AM, TheINFJNala wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.


I didn't mean get a GED and be done. I meant get a GED, go to CC, then transfer to uni

The possibility of you being able to transfer to a good college without a GED is not very high. Even still, the social climate of a university, if you are autistic, will most likely not be conducive to your short term or long term success, even if you got in -which I doubt that you would. Best case scenario is that you transfer to a community college. Worst case scenario is that you drop out and do nothing.

Are you even educated about autism?

I would suspect quite a bit more than you, actually. The fact that you are on this site, and typing coherent sentences tells me that at most you have aspergers, or some other variety of high functioning autism. From that I can draw certain conclusions. Among the most important would be how you would make the transition to a university, given that you have some high functioning variety of autism. The likelihood of you being able to transfer is not very high, and even if you did, the relatively unstructured university environment would almost surely not be one in which you could thrive at your current age.

And how is this primarily MY fault?

By "this" I'm not sure if you're referring to (1) the fact that you're being forced to drop out, (2) the fact that your grades are sub-par or (3) the fact that if you have no choice in the matter. I'm assuming that you're most likely referring to the second option, though, so I'll respond to that.

Your grades are directly proportional to the effort you put into them, unless you are mentally handicapped. I see no evidence that you are mentally handicapped. I suspect, alternatively, that you just don't like school. Deal with it, and fix your grades.

What part of "I may be FORCED by my parents to drop out of high school" do you not understand?

It is surprising to me that you think that I don't understand that, because nothing about my post indicated that I didn't. That tells me that you didn't read carefully enough, or you read meaning into what I wrote that was not there. Stop that immediately.

Now, would you like to know why (1) the probability of you being admitted to any university at this point in your life is very low, and (2) even if you were admitted, the probability of you being successful there is exceptionally low? It has nothing to do with your intelligence, btw. It has everything to do with the kind of environment that young people with high functioning varieties of autism function in and the fact that an undergraduate institution is not one of those places.

Why do people blame the teenager in so many situations?

Stop talking about "blame" and start thinking about what steps you need to take to correct this problem. The fact that your grades are low is necessarily your fault, and no one else's. But, that gets us nowhere.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/19/2014 11:16:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 11:15:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 6:18:38 AM, TheINFJNala wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.


I didn't mean get a GED and be done. I meant get a GED, go to CC, then transfer to uni

The possibility of you being able to transfer to a good college *with a GED is not very high. Even still, the social climate of a university, if you are autistic, will most likely not be conducive to your short term or long term success, even if you got in -which I doubt that you would. Best case scenario is that you transfer to a community college. Worst case scenario is that you drop out and do nothing.

Are you even educated about autism?

I would suspect quite a bit more than you, actually. The fact that you are on this site, and typing coherent sentences tells me that at most you have aspergers, or some other variety of high functioning autism. From that I can draw certain conclusions. Among the most important would be how you would make the transition to a university, given that you have some high functioning variety of autism. The likelihood of you being able to transfer is not very high, and even if you did, the relatively unstructured university environment would almost surely not be one in which you could thrive at your current age.

And how is this primarily MY fault?

By "this" I'm not sure if you're referring to (1) the fact that you're being forced to drop out, (2) the fact that your grades are sub-par or (3) the fact that if you have no choice in the matter. I'm assuming that you're most likely referring to the second option, though, so I'll respond to that.

Your grades are directly proportional to the effort you put into them, unless you are mentally handicapped. I see no evidence that you are mentally handicapped. I suspect, alternatively, that you just don't like school. Deal with it, and fix your grades.

What part of "I may be FORCED by my parents to drop out of high school" do you not understand?

It is surprising to me that you think that I don't understand that, because nothing about my post indicated that I didn't. That tells me that you didn't read carefully enough, or you read meaning into what I wrote that was not there. Stop that immediately.

Now, would you like to know why (1) the probability of you being admitted to any university at this point in your life is very low, and (2) even if you were admitted, the probability of you being successful there is exceptionally low? It has nothing to do with your intelligence, btw. It has everything to do with the kind of environment that young people with high functioning varieties of autism function in and the fact that an undergraduate institution is not one of those places.

Why do people blame the teenager in so many situations?

Stop talking about "blame" and start thinking about what steps you need to take to correct this problem. The fact that your grades are low is necessarily your fault, and no one else's. But, that gets us nowhere.
Tsar of DDO
TheINFJNala
Posts: 47
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10/19/2014 12:39:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 11:15:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 6:18:38 AM, TheINFJNala wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.


I didn't mean get a GED and be done. I meant get a GED, go to CC, then transfer to uni

The possibility of you being able to transfer to a good college without a GED is not very high. Even still, the social climate of a university, if you are autistic, will most likely not be conducive to your short term or long term success, even if you got in -which I doubt that you would. Best case scenario is that you transfer to a community college. Worst case scenario is that you drop out and do nothing.

Are you even educated about autism?

I would suspect quite a bit more than you, actually. The fact that you are on this site, and typing coherent sentences tells me that at most you have aspergers, or some other variety of high functioning autism. From that I can draw certain conclusions. Among the most important would be how you would make the transition to a university, given that you have some high functioning variety of autism. The likelihood of you being able to transfer is not very high, and even if you did, the relatively unstructured university environment would almost surely not be one in which you could thrive at your current age.

And how is this primarily MY fault?

By "this" I'm not sure if you're referring to (1) the fact that you're being forced to drop out, (2) the fact that your grades are sub-par or (3) the fact that if you have no choice in the matter. I'm assuming that you're most likely referring to the second option, though, so I'll respond to that.

Your grades are directly proportional to the effort you put into them, unless you are mentally handicapped. I see no evidence that you are mentally handicapped. I suspect, alternatively, that you just don't like school. Deal with it, and fix your grades.

What part of "I may be FORCED by my parents to drop out of high school" do you not understand?

It is surprising to me that you think that I don't understand that, because nothing about my post indicated that I didn't. That tells me that you didn't read carefully enough, or you read meaning into what I wrote that was not there. Stop that immediately.

Now, would you like to know why (1) the probability of you being admitted to any university at this point in your life is very low, and (2) even if you were admitted, the probability of you being successful there is exceptionally low? It has nothing to do with your intelligence, btw. It has everything to do with the kind of environment that young people with high functioning varieties of autism function in and the fact that an undergraduate institution is not one of those places.

Why do people blame the teenager in so many situations?

Stop talking about "blame" and start thinking about what steps you need to take to correct this problem. The fact that your grades are low is necessarily your fault, and no one else's. But, that gets us nowhere.

I was asking if I was being blamed for being forced to be a drop out by my parents.
My GRADES are my fault! But a decision I could have no say in?

I DID NOT ask you for advice on GEDs and college. I was simply asking if being forced to be a drop out is illegal or not.

I clearly told you that I am planning to change my attitude around so I can get help and possibly get better grades.

I am doing poorly in school?

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

My GPA isn't even below 3.0!

HOW am I doing poorly in school?

Am I doing my best? I'm not certain. I've been working hard. I just refuse to work TOO hard.

But am I doing POORLY? No!

Nothing is just black and white!

Yes, my autism is high functioning. But that doesn't mean I don't have any big problems from it.

My chances of transferring is low?

I'm not going to apply to Harvard or Stanford!

Who says I was going to apply to a prestigious college?

If I am forced to drop out against my will, I will go to CC and transfer to a college that isn't prestigious, but nor at the bottom of the ranks either.
Such
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10/19/2014 1:32:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

As far as legality is concerned, as someone else pointed out, it depends on the the state. For some states, school is compulsory until 16 unless there are extenuating circumstances, whereas in others, it's until 17 or 18.

I don't think you're doing that badly. Your parents sound overbearing and they probably make a difficult situation even worse. I think that YYW is being pretty insensitive about this -- if you have Aspergers, at the very least, you're dealing with some fairly daunting social issues that are pretty hard to surmount. If you've gotten this far with the grades you have, I'm actually impressed. To want to press on and finish out your schooling is also admirable. Many students, including myself, would have jumped at the opportunity to prematurely leave high school behind.

If you ended up with a GED and did well in CC, though, you'd still be fine. With stellar grades in CC and other positive points in your educational resume, such as community service or experience in your chosen field, getting into a good school, or even one of the best, isn't even unlikely.

Press on. You'll be fine either way, tbh.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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10/19/2014 1:39:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Remember, dropping out of public high school does not mean you'll be stuck with a GED. You can be home schooled and receive a diploma or even get it attending school over the internet. Times have changed so there are a lot of different paths you can take.
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/19/2014 2:18:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 12:39:06 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
At 10/19/2014 11:15:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 6:18:38 AM, TheINFJNala wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.


I didn't mean get a GED and be done. I meant get a GED, go to CC, then transfer to uni

The possibility of you being able to transfer to a good college without a GED is not very high. Even still, the social climate of a university, if you are autistic, will most likely not be conducive to your short term or long term success, even if you got in -which I doubt that you would. Best case scenario is that you transfer to a community college. Worst case scenario is that you drop out and do nothing.

Are you even educated about autism?

I would suspect quite a bit more than you, actually. The fact that you are on this site, and typing coherent sentences tells me that at most you have aspergers, or some other variety of high functioning autism. From that I can draw certain conclusions. Among the most important would be how you would make the transition to a university, given that you have some high functioning variety of autism. The likelihood of you being able to transfer is not very high, and even if you did, the relatively unstructured university environment would almost surely not be one in which you could thrive at your current age.

And how is this primarily MY fault?

By "this" I'm not sure if you're referring to (1) the fact that you're being forced to drop out, (2) the fact that your grades are sub-par or (3) the fact that if you have no choice in the matter. I'm assuming that you're most likely referring to the second option, though, so I'll respond to that.

Your grades are directly proportional to the effort you put into them, unless you are mentally handicapped. I see no evidence that you are mentally handicapped. I suspect, alternatively, that you just don't like school. Deal with it, and fix your grades.

What part of "I may be FORCED by my parents to drop out of high school" do you not understand?

It is surprising to me that you think that I don't understand that, because nothing about my post indicated that I didn't. That tells me that you didn't read carefully enough, or you read meaning into what I wrote that was not there. Stop that immediately.

Now, would you like to know why (1) the probability of you being admitted to any university at this point in your life is very low, and (2) even if you were admitted, the probability of you being successful there is exceptionally low? It has nothing to do with your intelligence, btw. It has everything to do with the kind of environment that young people with high functioning varieties of autism function in and the fact that an undergraduate institution is not one of those places.

Why do people blame the teenager in so many situations?

Stop talking about "blame" and start thinking about what steps you need to take to correct this problem. The fact that your grades are low is necessarily your fault, and no one else's. But, that gets us nowhere.




I was asking if I was being blamed for being forced to be a drop out by my parents.
My GRADES are my fault! But a decision I could have no say in?

I DID NOT ask you for advice on GEDs and college. I was simply asking if being forced to be a drop out is illegal or not.

I clearly told you that I am planning to change my attitude around so I can get help and possibly get better grades.

I am doing poorly in school?

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

My GPA isn't even below 3.0!

HOW am I doing poorly in school?

Am I doing my best? I'm not certain. I've been working hard. I just refuse to work TOO hard.

There's your problem.

But am I doing POORLY? No!

Nothing is just black and white!

Yes, my autism is high functioning. But that doesn't mean I don't have any big problems from it.

It sounds like you're making excuses.

My chances of transferring is low?

Correct.

I'm not going to apply to Harvard or Stanford!

Who says I was going to apply to a prestigious college?

You, at best, might get into community college unless your SAT scores are very good.

If I am forced to drop out against my will, I will go to CC and transfer to a college that isn't prestigious, but nor at the bottom of the ranks either.
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Thanksfornotraping
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10/19/2014 2:31:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.

As a former substitute teacher (not a certified one) I encouraged all my students to get their GED as fast as they could so they could go to college quicker rather than having to wait for four years of high school to end. My kid's mom and her brother both got their GEDs at 15 and were in college the same year. They are both successful and smart. And, speaking from related experience, autism most assuredly is an obstacle for education and success in life, so don't just randomly tell a person with it to just work harder, as they are probably operating as well as they can given their affliction.
YYW
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10/19/2014 2:48:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 2:31:18 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.

As a former substitute teacher (not a certified one) I encouraged all my students to get their GED as fast as they could so they could go to college quicker rather than having to wait for four years of high school to end. My kid's mom and her brother both got their GEDs at 15 and were in college the same year. They are both successful and smart. And, speaking from related experience, autism most assuredly is an obstacle for education and success in life, so don't just randomly tell a person with it to just work harder, as they are probably operating as well as they can given their affliction.

As a former college instructor, my perspective might be a bit different than yours. If you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as opposed to finishing high school, then you gave them bad advice unless the public school they attended was abysmal. That may have been the case, but there is a wide variance in schools throughout the country. For example, California, New York, Massachusetts and Illinois all have very good public schools. West Virginia, Mississippi, Louisiana and Kentucky, alternatively, do not.

Autism is indeed an obstacle, but not all autism is created equally. If you read the above post and understood it, you would be aware that the OP in this thread has "high functioning" autism. I encourage you to Google that, if you don't know what it means. In the OP's case, her "high functioning" autism should not substantially impair her ability to learn at the same pace as a normal student. She might have to work a little harder, and she might learn differently, but she is not unable to finish high school.

I also want to be very clear about something you said above: you said that you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as fast as they could. There are extremely few cases where that is the best solution. The only time where that is even a good option is (1) where the public school the student attends is horrible, (2) the student has the intellectual ability and motivation to work quite a bit harder and (3) the student has a sufficient social support network (like, a loving family) the probability that they will graduate is very very low.

The reason that the probability that students who get their GED rather than finish high school are unlikely to graduate is because (1) they are -on balance- not emotionally mature enough to make responsible choices in college, (2) they lack the self discipline that is required to remain focused throughout college, and (3) they will bring the same study habits they had in high school to college which is unlikely to result in positive outcomes.

So, please... stop giving bad advice. Just because one or a few person may have experienced some degree of success for taking a route does not mean that every person will. I can't believe I'm even having to explain this...
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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10/19/2014 2:51:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And before we go on... let's just talk about the elephant in the room...

The OP is "average" in high school, not exceptional, and yet we want to make it harder? I mean, are we really at a point where we are so sympathetic to people's feelings that we encourage them to make potentially disastrous choices because we don't want them to feel bad?

Good grief. Yes, I am insensitive. But, rare is the time when what is pragmatic also makes people feel good about themselves.
Tsar of DDO
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10/19/2014 3:05:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 2:48:17 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 2:31:18 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.

As a former substitute teacher (not a certified one) I encouraged all my students to get their GED as fast as they could so they could go to college quicker rather than having to wait for four years of high school to end. My kid's mom and her brother both got their GEDs at 15 and were in college the same year. They are both successful and smart. And, speaking from related experience, autism most assuredly is an obstacle for education and success in life, so don't just randomly tell a person with it to just work harder, as they are probably operating as well as they can given their affliction.

As a former college instructor, my perspective might be a bit different than yours. If you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as opposed to finishing high school, then you gave them bad advice unless the public school they attended was abysmal. That may have been the case, but there is a wide variance in schools throughout the country. For example, California, New York, Massachusetts and Illinois all have very good public schools. West Virginia, Mississippi, Louisiana and Kentucky, alternatively, do not.

Autism is indeed an obstacle, but not all autism is created equally. If you read the above post and understood it, you would be aware that the OP in this thread has "high functioning" autism. I encourage you to Google that, if you don't know what it means. In the OP's case, her "high functioning" autism should not substantially impair her ability to learn at the same pace as a normal student. She might have to work a little harder, and she might learn differently, but she is not unable to finish high school.

I also want to be very clear about something you said above: you said that you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as fast as they could. There are extremely few cases where that is the best solution. The only time where that is even a good option is (1) where the public school the student attends is horrible, (2) the student has the intellectual ability and motivation to work quite a bit harder and (3) the student has a sufficient social support network (like, a loving family) the probability that they will graduate is very very low.

The reason that the probability that students who get their GED rather than finish high school are unlikely to graduate is because (1) they are -on balance- not emotionally mature enough to make responsible choices in college, (2) they lack the self discipline that is required to remain focused throughout college, and (3) they will bring the same study habits they had in high school to college which is unlikely to result in positive outcomes.

So, please... stop giving bad advice. Just because one or a few person may have experienced some degree of success for taking a route does not mean that every person will. I can't believe I'm even having to explain this...

I was teaching in the middle of Alaska and the public schools there suck. And just so we're totally clear, I encouraged them to get their GED as fast as they could if they were planning on GOING to college. I never told (or would tell) anyone to get the GED, dropout, and not pursue higher education. My experience with school age children (not just from AK) is that as they get to their junior and senior years, there are more distractions that could derail their education (drugs, alcohol, gangs, sex, jobs, etc.). I realize they still would be exposed to this stuff in college, but maybe the allure of a new college life would keep them going to classes. Boredom for the seniors also led to not studying. I realize this isn't the case for all students, but getting them into college slightly early was an advantage that I saw as an opportunity to stave off potentially bad habits kids learn in high school.
Khaos_Mage
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10/19/2014 3:14:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 2:51:24 PM, YYW wrote:
And before we go on... let's just talk about the elephant in the room...

I think the elephant in the room is why he is being forced to quit school, if his GPA is 3.0. What sense does that make as a parent? At best, it's to get a job and help the family.

Also, what state is he in? That would help address the question in the title?
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
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10/19/2014 3:15:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 3:14:08 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/19/2014 2:51:24 PM, YYW wrote:
And before we go on... let's just talk about the elephant in the room...

I think the elephant in the room is why he is being forced to quit school, if his GPA is 3.0. What sense does that make as a parent? At best, it's to get a job and help the family.

Yup. The OP's parents are misguided, to put it nicely.

Also, what state is he in? That would help address the question in the title?

No clue.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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10/19/2014 3:17:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 3:05:26 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 10/19/2014 2:48:17 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 2:31:18 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 10/19/2014 1:06:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/18/2014 10:51:57 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
My grades aren't the best, but they aren't bad.

I have two A's, one B, and one C.

I am a 16 year old junior in high school with autism.

Hence the title, my parents may force me (yes, AGAINST MY WILL) to drop out of high school if I don't change my grades.

Is that even legal?

I say, "You can't do that! The last thing I want is to drop out of high school!"

And they say, "We are your parents, and you are only 16. You have no choice in the matter."

If it is legal, then after I get my GED (if I do end up being forced to drop out), employers better not blame me for a decision I didn't even have a say in!

It depends on state law.

That said, I have some thoughts about this:

1. Autism is not an excuse not to do well in school. I don't care if you're on the spectrum or not, and society doesn't either. We hold everyone to the same standard, and my theory is that you're not doing your best. Study harder and bring your grades up so that you can get into a good school.

2. If your parents have suggested that you quit school, then they're bad parents. I would be happy to talk to them at some point on DDO about why they are bad parents. Please, invite them to join.

3. GED's do not help you get ahead in life. College degrees do. Study so that you don't get stuck serving burritos for a living.

As a former substitute teacher (not a certified one) I encouraged all my students to get their GED as fast as they could so they could go to college quicker rather than having to wait for four years of high school to end. My kid's mom and her brother both got their GEDs at 15 and were in college the same year. They are both successful and smart. And, speaking from related experience, autism most assuredly is an obstacle for education and success in life, so don't just randomly tell a person with it to just work harder, as they are probably operating as well as they can given their affliction.

As a former college instructor, my perspective might be a bit different than yours. If you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as opposed to finishing high school, then you gave them bad advice unless the public school they attended was abysmal. That may have been the case, but there is a wide variance in schools throughout the country. For example, California, New York, Massachusetts and Illinois all have very good public schools. West Virginia, Mississippi, Louisiana and Kentucky, alternatively, do not.

Autism is indeed an obstacle, but not all autism is created equally. If you read the above post and understood it, you would be aware that the OP in this thread has "high functioning" autism. I encourage you to Google that, if you don't know what it means. In the OP's case, her "high functioning" autism should not substantially impair her ability to learn at the same pace as a normal student. She might have to work a little harder, and she might learn differently, but she is not unable to finish high school.

I also want to be very clear about something you said above: you said that you encouraged all of your students to get their GED as fast as they could. There are extremely few cases where that is the best solution. The only time where that is even a good option is (1) where the public school the student attends is horrible, (2) the student has the intellectual ability and motivation to work quite a bit harder and (3) the student has a sufficient social support network (like, a loving family) the probability that they will graduate is very very low.

The reason that the probability that students who get their GED rather than finish high school are unlikely to graduate is because (1) they are -on balance- not emotionally mature enough to make responsible choices in college, (2) they lack the self discipline that is required to remain focused throughout college, and (3) they will bring the same study habits they had in high school to college which is unlikely to result in positive outcomes.

So, please... stop giving bad advice. Just because one or a few person may have experienced some degree of success for taking a route does not mean that every person will. I can't believe I'm even having to explain this...

I was teaching in the middle of Alaska and the public schools there suck. And just so we're totally clear, I encouraged them to get their GED as fast as they could if they were planning on GOING to college. I never told (or would tell) anyone to get the GED, dropout, and not pursue higher education. My experience with school age children (not just from AK) is that as they get to their junior and senior years, there are more distractions that could derail their education (drugs, alcohol, gangs, sex, jobs, etc.). I realize they still would be exposed to this stuff in college, but maybe the allure of a new college life would keep them going to classes. Boredom for the seniors also led to not studying. I realize this isn't the case for all students, but getting them into college slightly early was an advantage that I saw as an opportunity to stave off potentially bad habits kids learn in high school.

So, you want to reduce exposure to negative stuff, and your solution to that is to get kids in an environment where they're going to have substantially more exposure to drugs, sex and alcohol in the absence of parental authority?
Tsar of DDO
Thanksfornotraping
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10/19/2014 3:20:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What will one or two more years of high school do will make college better for them, if they're already smart enough to attend? You ever hang around bored high school kids? They get in trouble. And, yes, some get in trouble in college, but not all have to be away from home to go to college. Many students stay with their folks until they can afford a place of their own.
YYW
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10/19/2014 3:27:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 3:20:49 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
What will one or two more years of high school do will make college better for them, if they're already smart enough to attend? You ever hang around bored high school kids? They get in trouble. And, yes, some get in trouble in college, but not all have to be away from home to go to college. Many students stay with their folks until they can afford a place of their own.

Two more years to mature, learn to make responsible decisions for themselves, and function as a responsible member of society. Your attitude about success in college is incredibly naive.

Did you go to college?
Tsar of DDO
Thanksfornotraping
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10/19/2014 3:40:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 3:27:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/19/2014 3:20:49 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
What will one or two more years of high school do will make college better for them, if they're already smart enough to attend? You ever hang around bored high school kids? They get in trouble. And, yes, some get in trouble in college, but not all have to be away from home to go to college. Many students stay with their folks until they can afford a place of their own.

Two more years to mature, learn to make responsible decisions for themselves, and function as a responsible member of society. Your attitude about success in college is incredibly naive.

Did you go to college?

I did- three colleges over 15 years to get my BA in Psychology. I've worked with children for many years and if the parent thinks their children can handle whatever their kids want to pursue, it's usually best not to wait lest the children change their minds. Obviously if the kids aren't mature enough to handle it, they shouldn't be pushed into college early, but having that GED can fast track one into college if the time is right. There's not a single reason a student SHOULDN'T have a GED (while also still in high school). It's just an extra tool that can be handy. Would you want your own child wasting a year or two of their teens not going to college if they could?
YYW
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10/19/2014 3:43:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 3:40:37 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
Would you want your own child wasting a year or two of their teens not going to college if they could?

Time spent in high school is not necessarily a waste.
Tsar of DDO
TheINFJNala
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10/19/2014 4:03:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You know what?

Just don't listen to YYW.

Just ignore him.

He's clearly being insensitive and condescending.
YYW
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10/19/2014 4:15:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 4:03:32 PM, TheINFJNala wrote:
You know what?

Just don't listen to YYW.

Just ignore him.

He's clearly being insensitive and condescending.

And your point?
Tsar of DDO
EndarkenedRationalist
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10/19/2014 4:30:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think your grades are fine - the C could use a little improvement, but that's up to you.

The legality of your parents' actions has been discussed before. It depends on your state of residence.

The best solution here seems to be to improve that C, keep your grades at a decent level, graduate high school, and go on to college. I'd stay away from getting a GED and hopping straight into college.
neptune1bond
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10/20/2014 3:48:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 4:15:22 PM, YYW wrote:

And your point?

YYW, I don't necessarily dislike you, so I mean this in the nicest way possible.

I already know that you are intending to be a complete @sshole in this instance, so therefor pointing that out to you will have no meaning. And I'll freely admit that sometimes I am very much an @sshole myself on the internet with the intention of influencing those reading a debate I'm having rather than those that I'm actually debating (which, many times you probably have no chance at influencing your "opponent" no matter how hard you try). But, I think it's important to realize when being an @sshole is useful and effective and when you are simply doing it for personal reasons rather than because it is actually helpful. (And, yes, I will freely admit that sometimes we do it only for our own sakes, for whatever reason. There are definitely times that we all are simply expressing personal frustrations rather than trying to make arguments that will be useful, even if we happen to be right in that instance. Some people also do it to feel superior to others or possibly for any number of other reasons.)

I didn't look up all the relevant studies (some of them I just remember reading earlier) but here's a couple articles that demonstrate some of the things that I'm talking about later in this post if you care to read them (it's not absolutely necessary):
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

http://www.boston.com...

Studies have shown that when people were in doubt, they advocated their position more fiercely and doggedly (this doesn't imply, in any way, actual degrees of rightness or wrongness, but rather simply the strength with which they advocate their beliefs, although there can be other influences that can strongly influence this like personal attachment to the subjects or fear of outcomes, like the studies show). The studies also showed that people who felt more secure were less likely to advocate their position so strongly. Also,unfortunately, the less informed a person is the more likely they were to ignore facts, even when faced with them directly. The studies also showed that people who felt more self-assured were more likely to accept new information (especially if it contradicted their preconceived notions). There are also other studies I've read (although I don't feel the need to go searching, considering the conclusions are already strongly inferred from what I've already presented), that prove that when people feel attacked by someone they are far more likely to strengthen in their previous beliefs, no matter how incorrect they may be (and even when faced with obvious facts to the contrary), but when the other person presents information in a friendly, complimentary, and self-esteem reaffirming way, they are far more likely to accept the new information (or, as the studies I've cited have shown, if they are presented the information by a source that they strongly trust). So, in other words, there is quite a bit of truth to the intended meaning of the age-old adage,"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

My point is that there is probably little purpose in coming into this thread to prove a point to anonymous others who might read it. Rather, it is far more important to try and help TheINFJNala with his very difficult situation. I'm not saying that either him or you are necessarily right in all of your points or even that what you say is necessarily the best advice for his current situation. Nonetheless, personal attacks and insensitivity is only going to put TheINFJNala on the defensive, making him incapable of easily considering your advice in a rational way. By presenting help in a neutral way or ESPECIALLY in a self-esteem building or caring and sensitive way, you are far more likely to be incredibly effective AND helpful. I think that it is important that we try to consider our intentions when we engage in conversations on this website and who our intended audience is (although I will fully admit that I am far from best at this). There are definitely times to be an @sshole in a way that can be incredibly effective and there are times when it can actually have the complete opposite effect altogether. In this instance, you very well might be taking a bad situation and making it worse. You are probably more likely to discourage TheINFJNala than to inspire him to be better. Again, I'm not saying that you don't have, at least, some valid points, I'm simply saying that your presentation might be completely ineffectual. We want him to succeed, not fail.
YYW
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10/20/2014 10:27:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 3:48:44 AM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 10/19/2014 4:15:22 PM, YYW wrote:

And your point?

YYW, I don't necessarily dislike you, so I mean this in the nicest way possible.

I already know that you are intending to be a complete @sshole in this instance, so therefor pointing that out to you will have no meaning. And I'll freely admit that sometimes I am very much an @sshole myself on the internet with the intention of influencing those reading a debate I'm having rather than those that I'm actually debating (which, many times you probably have no chance at influencing your "opponent" no matter how hard you try). But, I think it's important to realize when being an @sshole is useful and effective and when you are simply doing it for personal reasons rather than because it is actually helpful. (And, yes, I will freely admit that sometimes we do it only for our own sakes, for whatever reason. There are definitely times that we all are simply expressing personal frustrations rather than trying to make arguments that will be useful, even if we happen to be right in that instance. Some people also do it to feel superior to others or possibly for any number of other reasons.)

I didn't look up all the relevant studies (some of them I just remember reading earlier) but here's a couple articles that demonstrate some of the things that I'm talking about later in this post if you care to read them (it's not absolutely necessary):
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

http://www.boston.com...

Studies have shown that when people were in doubt, they advocated their position more fiercely and doggedly (this doesn't imply, in any way, actual degrees of rightness or wrongness, but rather simply the strength with which they advocate their beliefs, although there can be other influences that can strongly influence this like personal attachment to the subjects or fear of outcomes, like the studies show). The studies also showed that people who felt more secure were less likely to advocate their position so strongly. Also,unfortunately, the less informed a person is the more likely they were to ignore facts, even when faced with them directly. The studies also showed that people who felt more self-assured were more likely to accept new information (especially if it contradicted their preconceived notions). There are also other studies I've read (although I don't feel the need to go searching, considering the conclusions are already strongly inferred from what I've already presented), that prove that when people feel attacked by someone they are far more likely to strengthen in their previous beliefs, no matter how incorrect they may be (and even when faced with obvious facts to the contrary), but when the other person presents information in a friendly, complimentary, and self-esteem reaffirming way, they are far more likely to accept the new information (or, as the studies I've cited have shown, if they are presented the information by a source that they strongly trust). So, in other words, there is quite a bit of truth to the intended meaning of the age-old adage,"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

My point is that there is probably little purpose in coming into this thread to prove a point to anonymous others who might read it. Rather, it is far more important to try and help TheINFJNala with his very difficult situation. I'm not saying that either him or you are necessarily right in all of your points or even that what you say is necessarily the best advice for his current situation. Nonetheless, personal attacks and insensitivity is only going to put TheINFJNala on the defensive, making him incapable of easily considering your advice in a rational way. By presenting help in a neutral way or ESPECIALLY in a self-esteem building or caring and sensitive way, you are far more likely to be incredibly effective AND helpful. I think that it is important that we try to consider our intentions when we engage in conversations on this website and who our intended audience is (although I will fully admit that I am far from best at this). There are definitely times to be an @sshole in a way that can be incredibly effective and there are times when it can actually have the complete opposite effect altogether. In this instance, you very well might be taking a bad situation and making it worse. You are probably more likely to discourage TheINFJNala than to inspire him to be better. Again, I'm not saying that you don't have, at least, some valid points, I'm simply saying that your presentation might be completely ineffectual. We want him to succeed, not fail.

1. I am not trying to be an @sshole. Your subjective perception of "tone" to that end has failed you.
2. I am not "fiercely" advocating for something. I'm directly stating something that is the case. I don't think you have a concept of what "fierce advocacy" from me would look like.
3. There is not really a single relevant, or helpful thing you said in that entire post of yours.
Tsar of DDO
TheINFJNala
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10/20/2014 10:59:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 3:48:44 AM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 10/19/2014 4:15:22 PM, YYW wrote:

And your point?

YYW, I don't necessarily dislike you, so I mean this in the nicest way possible.

I already know that you are intending to be a complete @sshole in this instance, so therefor pointing that out to you will have no meaning. And I'll freely admit that sometimes I am very much an @sshole myself on the internet with the intention of influencing those reading a debate I'm having rather than those that I'm actually debating (which, many times you probably have no chance at influencing your "opponent" no matter how hard you try). But, I think it's important to realize when being an @sshole is useful and effective and when you are simply doing it for personal reasons rather than because it is actually helpful. (And, yes, I will freely admit that sometimes we do it only for our own sakes, for whatever reason. There are definitely times that we all are simply expressing personal frustrations rather than trying to make arguments that will be useful, even if we happen to be right in that instance. Some people also do it to feel superior to others or possibly for any number of other reasons.)

I didn't look up all the relevant studies (some of them I just remember reading earlier) but here's a couple articles that demonstrate some of the things that I'm talking about later in this post if you care to read them (it's not absolutely necessary):
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

http://www.boston.com...

Studies have shown that when people were in doubt, they advocated their position more fiercely and doggedly (this doesn't imply, in any way, actual degrees of rightness or wrongness, but rather simply the strength with which they advocate their beliefs, although there can be other influences that can strongly influence this like personal attachment to the subjects or fear of outcomes, like the studies show). The studies also showed that people who felt more secure were less likely to advocate their position so strongly. Also,unfortunately, the less informed a person is the more likely they were to ignore facts, even when faced with them directly. The studies also showed that people who felt more self-assured were more likely to accept new information (especially if it contradicted their preconceived notions). There are also other studies I've read (although I don't feel the need to go searching, considering the conclusions are already strongly inferred from what I've already presented), that prove that when people feel attacked by someone they are far more likely to strengthen in their previous beliefs, no matter how incorrect they may be (and even when faced with obvious facts to the contrary), but when the other person presents information in a friendly, complimentary, and self-esteem reaffirming way, they are far more likely to accept the new information (or, as the studies I've cited have shown, if they are presented the information by a source that they strongly trust). So, in other words, there is quite a bit of truth to the intended meaning of the age-old adage,"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

My point is that there is probably little purpose in coming into this thread to prove a point to anonymous others who might read it. Rather, it is far more important to try and help TheINFJNala with his very difficult situation. I'm not saying that either him or you are necessarily right in all of your points or even that what you say is necessarily the best advice for his current situation. Nonetheless, personal attacks and insensitivity is only going to put TheINFJNala on the defensive, making him incapable of easily considering your advice in a rational way. By presenting help in a neutral way or ESPECIALLY in a self-esteem building or caring and sensitive way, you are far more likely to be incredibly effective AND helpful. I think that it is important that we try to consider our intentions when we engage in conversations on this website and who our intended audience is (although I will fully admit that I am far from best at this). There are definitely times to be an @sshole in a way that can be incredibly effective and there are times when it can actually have the complete opposite effect altogether. In this instance, you very well might be taking a bad situation and making it worse. You are probably more likely to discourage TheINFJNala than to inspire him to be better. Again, I'm not saying that you don't have, at least, some valid points, I'm simply saying that your presentation might be completely ineffectual. We want him to succeed, not fail.

That was a very thoughtful post. I am grateful for your advice.

But one thing you should know:

I'M A WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!
neptune1bond
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10/20/2014 2:26:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 10:27:46 AM, YYW wrote:

1. I am not trying to be an @sshole. Your subjective perception of "tone" to that end has failed you.
Whether trying or just simply being....it's irrelevant to my point.
2. I am not "fiercely" advocating for something. I'm directly stating something that is the case. I don't think you have a concept of what "fierce advocacy" from me would look like.
Nonetheless, as the studies have shown, you're not being helpful.
3. There is not really a single relevant, or helpful thing you said in that entire post of yours.
No, there not a single thing you intend on using. There's a difference.