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Problems with Feminism

Gustav_Adolf_II
Posts: 80
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10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.
"Quoting yourself only makes you look like an arrogant jerk" - Gustav_Adolf_II
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/30/2014 9:57:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I'll sum up my dispute with feminism succinctly. It advocates group rights, rather than individual rights, ergo certain, if not entirely, philosophies feminism permeates will be biased, and will neglect other groups interests. Specifically, feminism focuses on gender equality, yet frequently acknowledges and addresses equality for women far more than it does for men.

As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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10/31/2014 2:43:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I will begin by saying that I am not a feminist. I enjoy my right to vote in elections, equal pay, and the laws that protect me from discrimination. These are simply human rights and we should all have these rights. I do not believe that men are horrible monsters that have objectified me sexually or that they are actively squashing my rights to be what I want to be. I absolutely love being female, but I refuse to be part of the cause. We have our rights already.

I believe there are serious problems that have been created by the feminist movement. I don't blame these problems on feminists. It has just been a contributing factor.

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.

3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.

4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

I honestly don't know how it can be fixed. First of all, I think that maybe we just need to stop complaining and judging.

What I would like to say to feminists...
Stop complaining. You have rights already. Sexual harassment happens both ways in the workplace. It's not just women who are harassed. Objectification goes both ways. It's not just women, men suffer this too. Discrimination is something we have all faced at some point in our lives. Either racial, sexual, cultural, or religious. Get over it and be conscious that you aren't doing it too. Don't expect me to agree with your cause just because I am a woman and then ridicule me because I don't. Save your expectations for each other.

So I probably just opened myself up for ridicule here, but that is how I feel.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
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10/31/2014 7:18:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 2:43:18 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

I will begin by saying that I am not a feminist. I enjoy my right to vote in elections, equal pay, and the laws that protect me from discrimination. These are simply human rights and we should all have these rights. I do not believe that men are horrible monsters that have objectified me sexually or that they are actively squashing my rights to be what I want to be. I absolutely love being female, but I refuse to be part of the cause. We have our rights already.

I believe there are serious problems that have been created by the feminist movement. I don't blame these problems on feminists. It has just been a contributing factor.

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.

3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.

4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

I honestly don't know how it can be fixed. First of all, I think that maybe we just need to stop complaining and judging.

What I would like to say to feminists...
Stop complaining. You have rights already. Sexual harassment happens both ways in the workplace. It's not just women who are harassed. Objectification goes both ways. It's not just women, men suffer this too. Discrimination is something we have all faced at some point in our lives. Either racial, sexual, cultural, or religious. Get over it and be conscious that you aren't doing it too. Don't expect me to agree with your cause just because I am a woman and then ridicule me because I don't. Save your expectations for each other.

So I probably just opened myself up for ridicule here, but that is how I feel.
And it's the fact that more and more women are agreeing with you that shows why feminism will most likely eventually fail (or hopefully change to true gender-egalitarianism). Thank you for speaking up for what's right! Stay-at-home moms like you are the only hope we have for our future. The things you do are incredibly valuable and I want all women who are stay-at-home moms to know that. I'm sorry that you have to live in a culture that makes you feel undervalued or like you don't have one of the most important jobs in the world. The fact that you've chosen to make your kids your priority makes you noble and shows incredible responsibility and a correct placement of priorities. No matter what people may say, you've done the right thing, not just by your children, but by society in general. I support women being in the workplace, but I really think that someone NEEDS to stay home with the kids, whether they are a man or a woman. It's the very fact that women like you have to feel apprehensive about standing up and voicing your opinion (the very thing feminism *supposedly* supports) that shows how backwards feminism is. Especially because I've heard multiple times that other women who have similar views as you fear the backlash (and sometimes threats) from feminists, rather than "the evil men" or "the patriarchy".
Tundraleigh
Posts: 1
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10/31/2014 9:59:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I think there are problems with feminism, although I am a supporter of egalitarianism and gender equality. From my perspective, one of the biggest issues with feminism is that male and female feminists have largely (and I'm sure inadvertently) gotten it wrong. True feminism honors the feminine, not just co-opts what are traditionally masculine traits. Now don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that women belong anywhere and everywhere that they choose to be. I do not support misogyny or patriarchy. However...

I believe that the world suffers from a profound lack of respect for traditionally feminine traits: cooperation, intuition, empathy, compromise, peacefulness, vulnerability, humility, selflessness, creativity, inclusiveness, gentleness, communication and non-violent conflict resolution, mental flexibility, patience, connection to Earth/nature/fecundity, etc. Because of this lack of respect for the feminine (even among women) the world has become gravely unbalanced and men and women alike celebrate competition and winning at any cost, pursuing self-oriented goals, violent resolution of conflicts, exploitation of the less powerful, etc. Yes, there is an imbalance of power, but there is also an imbalance of the value of feminine traits and their importance for our collective future.

Women can have both masculine and feminine traits (as can men). But from my perspective, let's celebrate and honor the power of traditionally feminine traits as well, because the world desperately needs more of these and less competitiveness, ego, arrogance, and self-directed behavior - all masculine traits that have been co-opted by well meaning feminists as their own. (to be clear I am not saying that masculine traits are all bad either - action, decisiveness, fierceness, strength, drive - these all have their place and time as well, and they are just as valuable and necessary when balanced out and tempered.)

The problems will be solved when women and men are truly able to recognize the value of the feminine, and that won't happen until women (and the men that care for them) decide to value and honor those traits within themselves, in their families, and in their friendships, careers, communities, politics and consumer decisions. Both men and women are capable of nurturing these traits in their lives, and it is through this acknowledgment of the equal value of feminine traits, and the conscious practice of these, that social values will begin to change.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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10/31/2014 11:21:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 7:18:25 AM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 10/31/2014 2:43:18 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

I will begin by saying that I am not a feminist. I enjoy my right to vote in elections, equal pay, and the laws that protect me from discrimination. These are simply human rights and we should all have these rights. I do not believe that men are horrible monsters that have objectified me sexually or that they are actively squashing my rights to be what I want to be. I absolutely love being female, but I refuse to be part of the cause. We have our rights already.

I believe there are serious problems that have been created by the feminist movement. I don't blame these problems on feminists. It has just been a contributing factor.

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.

3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.

4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

I honestly don't know how it can be fixed. First of all, I think that maybe we just need to stop complaining and judging.

What I would like to say to feminists...
Stop complaining. You have rights already. Sexual harassment happens both ways in the workplace. It's not just women who are harassed. Objectification goes both ways. It's not just women, men suffer this too. Discrimination is something we have all faced at some point in our lives. Either racial, sexual, cultural, or religious. Get over it and be conscious that you aren't doing it too. Don't expect me to agree with your cause just because I am a woman and then ridicule me because I don't. Save your expectations for each other.

So I probably just opened myself up for ridicule here, but that is how I feel.
And it's the fact that more and more women are agreeing with you that shows why feminism will most likely eventually fail (or hopefully change to true gender-egalitarianism). Thank you for speaking up for what's right! Stay-at-home moms like you are the only hope we have for our future. The things you do are incredibly valuable and I want all women who are stay-at-home moms to know that. I'm sorry that you have to live in a culture that makes you feel undervalued or like you don't have one of the most important jobs in the world. The fact that you've chosen to make your kids your priority makes you noble and shows incredible responsibility and a correct placement of priorities. No matter what people may say, you've done the right thing, not just by your children, but by society in general. I support women being in the workplace, but I really think that someone NEEDS to stay home with the kids, whether they are a man or a woman. It's the very fact that women like you have to feel apprehensive about standing up and voicing your opinion (the very thing feminism *supposedly* supports) that shows how backwards feminism is. Especially because I've heard multiple times that other women who have similar views as you fear the backlash (and sometimes threats) from feminists, rather than "the evil men" or "the patriarchy".

Thank you :)
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/31/2014 12:00:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/30/2014 9:57:34 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I'll sum up my dispute with feminism succinctly. It advocates group rights, rather than individual rights, ergo certain, if not entirely, philosophies feminism permeates will be biased, and will neglect other groups interests. Specifically, feminism focuses on gender equality, yet frequently acknowledges and addresses equality for women far more than it does for men.

Um yeah, that's.....sorta the point. Feminists identify a disparity between genders and work to rectify that. You say it neglects other group interests, which actually is a problem but not in the way you think. Early feminism generally ignored women of color, women from colonized countries, transgender women, lesbians, and a myriad of other groups which were excluded from feminist discourse. Besides this identity issue, past feminism has also ignored problems which women experience which either don't fall into a tidy liberal narrative (such as equal pay, voting rights, and career advancement) to the detriment of issues which are totally at odds with women's place under liberalism (postcolonial struggles, women's structural place in capitalism, the family in itself, etc.). So yeah, feminism has ignored a lot of important things in the past, but men aren't something which one should care about in regards to feminism even now.

As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable.

What does that even mean?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/31/2014 12:06:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 2:43:18 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I will begin by saying that I am not a feminist. I enjoy my right to vote in elections, equal pay, and the laws that protect me from discrimination. These are simply human rights and we should all have these rights. I do not believe that men are horrible monsters that have objectified me sexually or that they are actively squashing my rights to be what I want to be. I absolutely love being female, but I refuse to be part of the cause. We have our rights already.

I believe there are serious problems that have been created by the feminist movement. I don't blame these problems on feminists. It has just been a contributing factor.

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.

3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.

4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

I honestly don't know how it can be fixed. First of all, I think that maybe we just need to stop complaining and judging.

What I would like to say to feminists...
Stop complaining. You have rights already. Sexual harassment happens both ways in the workplace. It's not just women who are harassed. Objectification goes both ways. It's not just women, men suffer this too. Discrimination is something we have all faced at some point in our lives. Either racial, sexual, cultural, or religious. Get over it and be conscious that you aren't doing it too. Don't expect me to agree with your cause just because I am a woman and then ridicule me because I don't. Save your expectations for each other.

So I probably just opened myself up for ridicule here, but that is how I feel.

http://link.springer.com...
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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10/31/2014 12:26:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 2:43:18 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

I find this point particularly interesting because this was always true of nonwhite women, women of lower socioeconomic status, and immigrant women.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.

Feminism =/= man hating...

3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.

Since when do feminists dress as sex goddesses? Unless you're basing your perception of "feminists" off Beyonce or the Pu$$y Cat Dolls...

4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

The stigma with stay-at-home moms has less to do with feminism and more to do with patriarchy. Historically, it has not been feminism that devalues women's work, both inside and outside the home.
yang.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/31/2014 1:23:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 12:00:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:57:34 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I'll sum up my dispute with feminism succinctly. It advocates group rights, rather than individual rights, ergo certain, if not entirely, philosophies feminism permeates will be biased, and will neglect other groups interests. Specifically, feminism focuses on gender equality, yet frequently acknowledges and addresses equality for women far more than it does for men.

Um yeah, that's.....sorta the point. Feminists identify a disparity between genders and work to rectify that. You say it neglects other group interests, which actually is a problem but not in the way you think. Early feminism generally ignored women of color, women from colonized countries, transgender women, lesbians, and a myriad of other groups which were excluded from feminist discourse. Besides this identity issue, past feminism has also ignored problems which women experience which either don't fall into a tidy liberal narrative (such as equal pay, voting rights, and career advancement) to the detriment of issues which are totally at odds with women's place under liberalism (postcolonial struggles, women's structural place in capitalism, the family in itself, etc.). So yeah, feminism has ignored a lot of important things in the past, but men aren't something which one should care about in regards to feminism even now.

As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable.

What does that even mean?

"Men aren't something that feminism should care about now." This is precisely the premise I disagree with, and it is overtly demonstrated ubiquitously. This statement defends group rights, rather than individual rights. Why would feminism cater to women exclusively, and neglect men? Men have a multitude of social inequality issues and encounter sexism more frequently than feminism acknowledges. I fail to perceive the benefits of addressing gender equality if certain group issues are being addressed and others are neglected.

"As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable."

My sentence was poorly structured, and I was rushing this entire post. I intended to state that removing group rights advocates, such as feminism, and advocating individual rights as a solution, would be accurately sufficient.

Your entire explanation of contemporary versus prior feminism highlights my statement that feminism is profoundly biased, regardless of "when" feminism operates.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/31/2014 8:36:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 12:17:59 PM, tulle wrote:
@socialpinko

Respect.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/31/2014 8:38:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 1:23:26 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/31/2014 12:00:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:57:34 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/30/2014 9:01:01 PM, Gustav_Adolf_II wrote:
Your opinion if you please, to the following questions:

Are there any problems with feminism?

If yes, what are they?

How would you solve these problems?

I encourage understanding and polite debate in this forum.

I'll sum up my dispute with feminism succinctly. It advocates group rights, rather than individual rights, ergo certain, if not entirely, philosophies feminism permeates will be biased, and will neglect other groups interests. Specifically, feminism focuses on gender equality, yet frequently acknowledges and addresses equality for women far more than it does for men.

Um yeah, that's.....sorta the point. Feminists identify a disparity between genders and work to rectify that. You say it neglects other group interests, which actually is a problem but not in the way you think. Early feminism generally ignored women of color, women from colonized countries, transgender women, lesbians, and a myriad of other groups which were excluded from feminist discourse. Besides this identity issue, past feminism has also ignored problems which women experience which either don't fall into a tidy liberal narrative (such as equal pay, voting rights, and career advancement) to the detriment of issues which are totally at odds with women's place under liberalism (postcolonial struggles, women's structural place in capitalism, the family in itself, etc.). So yeah, feminism has ignored a lot of important things in the past, but men aren't something which one should care about in regards to feminism even now.

As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable.

What does that even mean?

"Men aren't something that feminism should care about now." This is precisely the premise I disagree with, and it is overtly demonstrated ubiquitously. This statement defends group rights, rather than individual rights. Why would feminism cater to women exclusively, and neglect men? Men have a multitude of social inequality issues and encounter sexism more frequently than feminism acknowledges. I fail to perceive the benefits of addressing gender equality if certain group issues are being addressed and others are neglected.

"As it pertains to a solution, removing group rights and focus on individual rights is conceivable."

My sentence was poorly structured, and I was rushing this entire post. I intended to state that removing group rights advocates, such as feminism, and advocating individual rights as a solution, would be accurately sufficient.

Are women oppressed in the same way as men?

Your entire explanation of contemporary versus prior feminism highlights my statement that feminism is profoundly biased, regardless of "when" feminism operates.

I was pointing out when and where feminism is *actually* at fault.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/31/2014 10:57:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Black on Black Crime
Part 1

1) Breakdown of the family: There was once a time when families could live on one income. With the women's rights movement suddenly more women were in the workforce and the average household income increased to two incomes. This caused more commerce and at the same time it also caused the cost of running the average household to go up. Now a family, parents and a couple of kids can't live comfortably on the average income of one worker. Now two people in the household have to work. The time when one parent is home to raise the children is gone unless the provider makes higher than average income. It resulted in daycares, latch key kids, etc.

I find this point particularly interesting because this was always true of nonwhite women, women of lower socioeconomic status, and immigrant women.

2) Man hating: Yeah, this is just wrong and there is no good reason or excuse to dislike an entire group of people based on their genitals. I can't even explain why this happens because I don't hate men.


Tulle: Feminism =/= man hating...

The Black Knight: Not all feminist hate men, but MANY feminist do. And teaching that men are the cause for all the worlds problems does teach children and adults to become bias against and thus a general hate towards men.

Secondly most feminist propaganda is aimed at demonizing men, and that is direct cause of hatred for men.

Thirdly, core assumptions Feminist Theory that don't even make any sense are bias towards men and create hate.

For the Patriarchy " takeover" theory to make sense, we have to believe that there was a time, were everything was "equal" no gender roles, and that men, in every society and on all places of the earth intentionally coordinated an evil conspiracy to oppress women??
(Oh yeah and they "hated" woman..)

Word?????
<(8O)

Or, or, does it simply represent a shared biological underpinning, which all humanity grew out of??
<(8J)

If one believe that Myth, then they take for granted that Men have somehow committed some eternal sin, and are somehow born guilty and in debt, to woman somehow.
This is quasi-religious notions.


3) Over inflation of objectification: What are they trying to say? I am dressing to be a sex goddess but don't you dare look at me. Most women welcome objectification just as long as they like the man or woman for that matter who is objectifying them. Most women dress to be attractive and then get pissed because some guy looked at her breasts. Women also check each other out. Most women if they are honest will tell you she looks at other women more often than she looks at men. Sizing up the competition. I honestly can't blame men for being sick of women whining about sexual objectification.


Tulle: Since when do feminists dress as sex goddesses? Unless you're basing your perception of "feminists" off Beyonce or the Pu$$y Cat Dolls...

The Black Knight: You missed the point, which was that the Feminist exaggerate the extent to which it happens, it actual influence and effect on society and woman at large. You, yourself probably don't realize that claims of it's effect on society are merely theoretical. Like you, they speak on behave of all woman for them whether they like it or not, without consent, saying what woman like, want and don't want, and if a woman disagrees they are bullied, and insulted into submission.

It does not follow that because men see woman as a sex objects they also don't see them as people. Its' a speculative theory, Not fact. Non-sexual Objectification is even more dehumanizing


4) Feminism discriminates against women: If a woman decides to stay home and raise her children she faces embarrassment every time she fills out a form that asks for occupation. Home maker? It carries a stigma. My feminist friends are floored when I tell them my husband makes a better income so I stay home with the kids. If I made more I'd be happy to support him and let him stay home. They think I am a door mat for my husband. Which is just not true. Stigma.

Tulle: The stigma with stay-at-home moms has less to do with feminism and more to do with patriarchy. Historically, it has not been feminism that devalues women's work, both inside and outside the home.

The Fool: Sorry sis, but that's just ignorant . Sounds like you got a little to excited for yourself there. In fact I am not even going to refute, but let stand as a testimony of your knowledge on the subject.
<(8D)

Against The Ideologist

If it was shorter I would use it as a SIG.
<(89)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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11/1/2014 1:53:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 12:06:29 PM, socialpinko wrote:
.
The Fool: No take internalized misogyny seriously. It's a corrupt research by which is merely theoretically base.

http://link.springer.com...

The same claim can be made you have internalize misandry and their nothing you can do to defend it, because the claims are not fallible there is not way to tell the difference. But it does say something about your integrity, an understanding of social science. I have taken psychometrics, and quantifiable methods I and II in behavior sciences, to properly asses, the validity of social science research. And this is Garbage.

Against The Ideologist

You Ideologists are wacked!!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
paininthenuts
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11/1/2014 5:26:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The biggest problem with feminism is that it is practiced almost solely by ugly lesbians. Women that can't attract men, that feel aggrieved by their lack of good looks. Women that have the standard short back and side haircut, and carry a giant chip on their shoulder. In short, feminism will never be taken seriously, because the women who believe in it can't be taken seriously.

Does that make my point ?
Nymphomaniac
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11/1/2014 11:34:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I got a couple issues with feminism, as it's practiced today.

First, so-called "choice feminism." Under that strain of feminism, whatever a woman does is feminist as long as it's her choice. So it becomes "feminist" to defend women's "right" to fake an orgasm and women's "right" to wear a burqa. A woman who "chooses" not to work, "chooses" to be economically and socially dependent on a man, "chooses" to not have sexual fulfillment -- all of it is "feminist." But neither of these things are feminist. Instead of blind respect for anything that can be called a "choice," we feminists need to start analyzing and distinguishing non-feminist choices from feminist ones. That is problem number one.

Problem number two: the "men are bad, women are good" rhetoric. Anytime you list all the ways men still oppress women, you're approaching feminism wrong. Yes, at some point in the movement's history, it was important to point out all the ways women were oppressed by men. But showing how women are the constant victims of bad horrible men serves no useful purpose today. The movement needs to evolve. Today, women are in a stronger position than they were 50 years ago. We need to recognize that that both men and women are oppressed. The structures of oppression don't exclusively benefit men and hurt women; it's much more complex than that. The patriarchy -- and that is ultimately the real target of feminism -- oppresses both men and women, and in turn, feminism needs to respond.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
Nymphomaniac
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11/1/2014 11:46:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 12:00:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Um yeah, that's.....sorta the point. Feminists identify a disparity between genders and work to rectify that. You say it neglects other group interests, which actually is a problem but not in the way you think. Early feminism generally ignored women of color, women from colonized countries, transgender women, lesbians, and a myriad of other groups which were excluded from feminist discourse. Besides this identity issue, past feminism has also ignored problems which women experience which either don't fall into a tidy liberal narrative (such as equal pay, voting rights, and career advancement) to the detriment of issues which are totally at odds with women's place under liberalism (postcolonial struggles, women's structural place in capitalism, the family in itself, etc.). So yeah, feminism has ignored a lot of important things in the past, but men aren't something which one should care about in regards to feminism even now.

I was with you till the end. Your "intersectionality" argument is inconsistent with your conclusion. Patriarchal structures oppress men. Why shouldn't feminism care about that?
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
Cermank
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11/1/2014 11:52:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 11:34:56 AM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
I got a couple issues with feminism, as it's practiced today.

First, so-called "choice feminism." Under that strain of feminism, whatever a woman does is feminist as long as it's her choice. So it becomes "feminist" to defend women's "right" to fake an orgasm and women's "right" to wear a burqa. A woman who "chooses" not to work, "chooses" to be economically and socially dependent on a man, "chooses" to not have sexual fulfillment -- all of it is "feminist." But neither of these things are feminist. Instead of blind respect for anything that can be called a "choice," we feminists need to start analyzing and distinguishing non-feminist choices from feminist ones. That is problem number one.

why? Which one of these is a non feminist choice?

Problem number two: the "men are bad, women are good" rhetoric. Anytime you list all the ways men still oppress women, you're approaching feminism wrong. Yes, at some point in the movement's history, it was important to point out all the ways women were oppressed by men. But showing how women are the constant victims of bad horrible men serves no useful purpose today. The movement needs to evolve. Today, women are in a stronger position than they were 50 years ago. We need to recognize that that both men and women are oppressed. The structures of oppression don't exclusively benefit men and hurt women; it's much more complex than that. The patriarchy -- and that is ultimately the real target of feminism -- oppresses both men and women, and in turn, feminism needs to respond.

i agree with this.
Nymphomaniac
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11/1/2014 12:13:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 11:52:32 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 11/1/2014 11:34:56 AM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
First, so-called "choice feminism." Under that strain of feminism, whatever a woman does is feminist as long as it's her choice. So it becomes "feminist" to defend women's "right" to fake an orgasm and women's "right" to wear a burqa. A woman who "chooses" not to work, "chooses" to be economically and socially dependent on a man, "chooses" to not have sexual fulfillment -- all of it is "feminist." But neither of these things are feminist. Instead of blind respect for anything that can be called a "choice," we feminists need to start analyzing and distinguishing non-feminist choices from feminist ones. That is problem number one.

why? Which one of these is a non feminist choice?

I don't understand your question. To clarify the above, the problem is women who participate in patriarchal or oppressive behaviors and call it feminist because it was their "choice." The obvious example I gave is wearing a burqa. That isn't feminist because (1) it's a patriarchal behavior and (2) subconsciously, it's probably not a choice.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
Cermank
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11/1/2014 12:30:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 12:13:29 PM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
At 11/1/2014 11:52:32 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 11/1/2014 11:34:56 AM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
First, so-called "choice feminism." Under that strain of feminism, whatever a woman does is feminist as long as it's her choice. So it becomes "feminist" to defend women's "right" to fake an orgasm and women's "right" to wear a burqa. A woman who "chooses" not to work, "chooses" to be economically and socially dependent on a man, "chooses" to not have sexual fulfillment -- all of it is "feminist." But neither of these things are feminist. Instead of blind respect for anything that can be called a "choice," we feminists need to start analyzing and distinguishing non-feminist choices from feminist ones. That is problem number one.

why? Which one of these is a non feminist choice?

I don't understand your question. To clarify the above, the problem is women who participate in patriarchal or oppressive behaviors and call it feminist because it was their "choice." The obvious example I gave is wearing a burqa. That isn't feminist because (1) it's a patriarchal behavior and (2) subconsciously, it's probably not a choice.

Generalizing the act of wearing a burqa as 'non feminist' is not exactly true though. Brandishing some acts as non feminist opens the doors to much more dangerous discourse. Clothes are cultural. If we are arguing that a girl wearing burqa is wearing it because she's been told to do so by the 'men' or the patriarchy prevalent in quran, for example- the exact same argument can be brandished for girls wearing short skirts/ revealing clothes. That they are wearing it because of the positive social reinforcement , a product of inherent objectification of women. What we should be targetting is *forced* enforcement of any dress code. People can wear burqas because they want to. They can *choose* not to work, that is a legitimate choice.

If it is, in fact, a choice.
Nymphomaniac
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11/1/2014 12:59:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 12:30:46 PM, Cermank wrote:
Generalizing the act of wearing a burqa as 'non feminist' is not exactly true though. Brandishing some acts as non feminist opens the doors to much more dangerous discourse. Clothes are cultural. If we are arguing that a girl wearing burqa is wearing it because she's been told to do so by the 'men' or the patriarchy prevalent in quran, for example- the exact same argument can be brandished for girls wearing short skirts/ revealing clothes. That they are wearing it because of the positive social reinforcement , a product of inherent objectification of women. What we should be targetting is *forced* enforcement of any dress code. People can wear burqas because they want to. They can *choose* not to work, that is a legitimate choice.

Clothes are cultural. Agreed. "Forced" enforcement of any dress code isn't good. Agreed. But wearing a short skirt is not the same as wearing a burqa. Context matters too. The skirt represents sexual freedom. The burqa represents repression. Women who wear short skirts challenge oppressive structures. Women who wear burqas engage in behavior that is still oppressive to women today. The same goes for women who "choose" economic and social dependence on men; it's still oppressive to women (and men) today.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be allowed to wear burqas or depend on men. You can do whatever you want. We should have choices. But not every choice is feminist. And calling it feminist because it's a "choice" is worse than just calling it what it is -- non-feminist. Hence my problem with "choice feminism": it justifies oppressive behaviors as feminist and thereby perpetuates patriarchal structures.

I think we might be talking about different things. I'm talking about problems with a movement -- feminism -- not what an ideal society looks like. If we had an ideal society, people could wear burqas all they want and it wouldn't perpetuate oppression. But that's not our society, is it? Like I said earlier, context matters.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
Cermank
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11/1/2014 1:21:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 12:59:06 PM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
At 11/1/2014 12:30:46 PM, Cermank wrote:
Generalizing the act of wearing a burqa as 'non feminist' is not exactly true though. Brandishing some acts as non feminist opens the doors to much more dangerous discourse. Clothes are cultural. If we are arguing that a girl wearing burqa is wearing it because she's been told to do so by the 'men' or the patriarchy prevalent in quran, for example- the exact same argument can be brandished for girls wearing short skirts/ revealing clothes. That they are wearing it because of the positive social reinforcement , a product of inherent objectification of women. What we should be targetting is *forced* enforcement of any dress code. People can wear burqas because they want to. They can *choose* not to work, that is a legitimate choice.

Clothes are cultural. Agreed. "Forced" enforcement of any dress code isn't good. Agreed. But wearing a short skirt is not the same as wearing a burqa. Context matters too. The skirt represents sexual freedom. The burqa represents repression. Women who wear short skirts challenge oppressive structures. Women who wear burqas engage in behavior that is still oppressive to women today. The same goes for women who "choose" economic and social dependence on men; it's still oppressive to women (and men) today.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be allowed to wear burqas or depend on men. You can do whatever you want. We should have choices. But not every choice is feminist. And calling it feminist because it's a "choice" is worse than just calling it what it is -- non-feminist. Hence my problem with "choice feminism": it justifies oppressive behaviors as feminist and thereby perpetuates patriarchal structures.

I think we might be talking about different things. I'm talking about problems with a movement -- feminism -- not what an ideal society looks like. If we had an ideal society, people could wear burqas all they want and it wouldn't perpetuate oppression. But that's not our society, is it? Like I said earlier, context matters.

That doesn't need an ideal society. I am with you when you say that *most* women wearing burqas are doing so because of the patriarchal nature of Islamic teachings, but feminists should focus on removing the *force*. Its not okay if a woman cannot chose to *not* wear a burqa, outlawing burqa isn't the right approach.

And I don't agree that wearing short skirts challenge oppressive structures. There's nothing more oppressive than your choice being a reaction to something you claim you're over. A argument can be made that it is a clothing choice that rides on social objectification of women, via positive reinforcement. There is a pretty wide discourse on this.

I would go further and say *choice feminism* is the utopian feminist ideal. When I can wear a burqa or when my boyfriend/ husband can leave his job whenever he wants and not be socially ridiculed, that is the final aim. To do away with the bifurcation of gender roles. Obviously its not true today, but declaring burqas as anti feminist or women leaving jobs as anti feminist is a step away from that ideal, its not progressive.
Nymphomaniac
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11/1/2014 2:03:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 1:21:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
That doesn't need an ideal society. I am with you when you say that *most* women wearing burqas are doing so because of the patriarchal nature of Islamic teachings, but feminists should focus on removing the *force*. Its not okay if a woman cannot chose to *not* wear a burqa, outlawing burqa isn't the right approach.

I don't recommend outlawing burqas. But calling it a "choice" does not make it more femininst. Wearing a burqa expresses solidarity with a profoundly patriarchal tradition. However you spin it, that isn't feminist.

And I don't agree that wearing short skirts challenge oppressive structures. There's nothing more oppressive than your choice being a reaction to something you claim you're over. A argument can be made that it is a clothing choice that rides on social objectification of women, via positive reinforcement. There is a pretty wide discourse on this.

I disagree with that discourse for two reasons. First, I don't think sexual objectification is patriarchal. It goes both ways and has value to both men and women. Second, the effect of wearing short skirts -- or any provocative clothing -- is feminist. To be sure, for some women it might be a reaction to social reinforcement. But historically, women's sexuality has been repressed. So again, however you spin it, the effect of women expressing sexuality in public is a direct challenge to patriarchal oppression.

I would go further and say *choice feminism* is the utopian feminist ideal. When I can wear a burqa or when my boyfriend/ husband can leave his job whenever he wants and not be socially ridiculed, that is the final aim.

What you're talking about is the "ideal" society. I'm talking about feminism, a movement that is aimed at reaching that society. Like I said earlier, at some point in history, listing all the ways men oppressed women was useful. Today, that tactic is no longer useful. When we talk about feminism, we should be talking about tactics. When there is no longer any need to challenge oppressive structures -- the "ideal society -- then we can talk about any "choice" as a true "choice" worthy of recognition. But until then, some "choices" are feminist and others are patriarchal. Some choices challenge patriarchal structures, others promote them. Public expression of sexuality challenges patriarchal structures. Burqa, on the other hand, is a classic patriarchal structure of oppression. Conflating the two choices -- calling them both feminist -- totally effaces history. Again, the story I'm telling is the same: context matters.

To do away with the bifurcation of gender roles. Obviously its not true today, but declaring burqas as anti feminist or women leaving jobs as anti feminist is a step away from that ideal, its not progressive.

I bolded the key language in your statement here. Feminism is a movement tethered to a specific time and place. Feminism today is different from feminism yesterday. Just as feminism tomorrow should be different from today's feminism.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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11/1/2014 5:37:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 5:26:28 AM, paininthenuts wrote:
The biggest problem with feminism is that it is practiced almost solely by ugly lesbians. Women that can't attract men, that feel aggrieved by their lack of good looks. Women that have the standard short back and side haircut, and carry a giant chip on their shoulder. In short, feminism will never be taken seriously, because the women who believe in it can't be taken seriously.

Does that make my point ?

The Fool: No, there is definitely a strand of those kind of woman in Feminism and they tend to be hateful but its certainly not the whole story.

Against The Ideologists.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
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11/1/2014 7:08:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 12:06:29 PM, socialpinko wrote:
The Social Ideologist


*: The Fool: No credible person takes Internalized Sexism seriously. It is Ideologically corrupt research with infallible theoretical assumptions.

*: The same claim can be made in your case that you have internalized misandry, by virtue of Feminist propaganda, and there is no way for you to demonstrate that its not the case. For if you do, it can then be claimed that its subconscious. Either way on can't tell if it is or if it isn't while at the same time it is condescending, to the person its being attributed to. The very charge itself is oppressive, and violates the right to ones own mind.

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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11/1/2014 7:08:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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11/1/2014 10:30:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Feminist Hegemony

Nymphomaniac: I got a couple issues with feminism, as it's practiced today. First, so-called "choice feminism." Under that strain of feminism, whatever a woman does is feminist as long as it's her choice. So it becomes "feminist" to defend women's "right" to fake an orgasm and women's "right" to wear a burqa. A woman who "chooses" not to work, "chooses" to be economically and socially dependent on a man, "chooses" to not have sexual fulfillment -- all of it is "feminist." But neither of these things are feminist. Instead of blind respect for anything that can be called a "choice," we feminists need to start analyzing and distinguishing non-feminist choices from feminist ones. That is problem number one.

The Fool: The problems is that as a Feminist you don't respect a woman's own autonomy, which you have openly demonstrated against, then there is a sense in which you can't be voice for woman. Your rejection of woman free choices not only contradicts your Pro-choice agenda, but is in a sense Tyrannical. Not that this is anything new, as Feminist have created for themselves what woman "ought" think, do, and like, whether they actually like it or not.

The biggest problem I have with feminism is that it demands too much. It's generally a totalitarian agenda which wants to control how we speak, to what we listen to, to what we watch, to how we feel, to what we think, to what we wear, to what we want to do with are lives, to what we laugh at. It tries to control every aspect of our lives, making life so dull and grey in the process. The very idea that there are Feminist out there, and in this forum, who have plans for how they are going to socialize our minds, in other words, brainwash us to think of the world in their way, is downright CREEPY.

Nymphomaniac: Problem number two: the "men are bad, women are good" rhetoric. Anytime you list all the ways men still oppress women, you're approaching feminism wrong.

The Fool: It's been 30 to 40 years of male bashing, and there is lots of hard feelings. Might as well keep going, because we are not going to forget it.

Nymphomaniac: Yes, at some point in the movement's history, it was important to point out all the ways women were oppressed by men.

The Fool: It is still all one and the same movement, and there was never a justification to blame men as a gender. Perhaps the social system, lack of technology and practicality of gender roles of the times, but NEVER men as a whole, as the intentional oppressors of woman, while men throughout history and in all cultures, have always placed the safety or woman and children first over themselves.

Nymphomaniac: But showing how women are the constant victims of bad horrible men serves no useful purpose today.

The Fool: Aww. Too late, too little. I'm sorry male bashing is no longer useful for you.

Nymphomaniac: The movement needs to evolve. Today, women are in a stronger position than they were 50 years ago. We need to recognize that that both men and women are oppressed. The structures of oppression don't exclusively benefit men and hurt women; it's much more complex than that.

The Fool: Feminism is also a cause of discrimination of men, and so men generally want a voice outside Feminist Ideology. One that was never bias against men at any point. They generally want their own voice apart from feminism for their own issues. And we all know Feminist will not respect that. They want to keep their hegemony on gender issues, and squash dissent or criticism.

Nymphomaniac: The patriarchy -- and that is ultimately the real target of feminism -- oppresses both men and women, and in turn, feminism needs to respond.

The Fool: Yeah that's a direct insult as it assumes that men are inherently evil, self-defeating and unjust, and that woman did not play a role or indirect role in structuring society.. Forget about the that fact that patriarchy allowed the opportunity to even be able protest at all, and thus for feminism to flourish.
<(8D)

Or perhaps you want to define more clearly what you mean by Patriarchy?

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
paininthenuts
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11/2/2014 4:24:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

I don't understand your question. To clarify the above, the problem is women who participate in patriarchal or oppressive behaviors and call it feminist because it was their "choice." The obvious example I gave is wearing a burqa. That isn't feminist because (1) it's a patriarchal behavior and (2) subconsciously, it's probably not a choice.

Generalizing the act of wearing a burqa as 'non feminist' is not exactly true though. Brandishing some acts as non feminist opens the doors to much more dangerous discourse. Clothes are cultural. If we are arguing that a girl wearing burqa is wearing it because she's been told to do so by the 'men' or the patriarchy prevalent in quran, for example- the exact same argument can be brandished for girls wearing short skirts/ revealing clothes. That they are wearing it because of the positive social reinforcement , a product of inherent objectification of women. What we should be targetting is *forced* enforcement of any dress code. People can wear burqas because they want to. They can *choose* not to work, that is a legitimate choice.

If it is, in fact, a choice.

I fear that the Niqab (not Burqa) is NOT a feminist statement. In actual fact it is the opposite. Women generally wear the Niqab because they have been instructed to so by their obsessively jealous husbands.

I appreciate that the discussion regarding the Niqab may be digressing somewhat, however that is what happens on all debating sites. The vast majority of indigenous people in the UK are for banning it, and for several reasons.

1) For security reasons. A motor cyclist has to remove his helmet when entering a bank, a jeweler or post office etc. Surely the Niqab is the same.
2) It is totally alien to our culture. Accurate communication requires expression, otherwise everything would be done over the phone.
3) It has nothing to do with religion, and is as offensive to the Western world as a British woman wearing a short skirt in a Muslim country.

That said, I think it would be a good idea for ugly women to wear the Niqab, for obvious reasons.
Publicaccount
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11/7/2014 5:50:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The biggest problem is that there are some insane feminists. Just like there are insane people in any group.And the media likes to blow up the insane ones.

Almost EVERY feminist I've met isn't one of these crazies. Like most feminists. A feminist is a woman (Maybe even a man too depending on your point of view) who stands up for women's rights. That simple.