Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

MRA and FEM; UNITE!

The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2014 12:49:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
My friend has a 5-year-old son who is enormously sensitive. He hates sport, cries at the slightest thing, and is sensitive to colors and nature, other people's feelings etc. Anyway, he's always being dragged to sports class (which he hates), and being told to toughen up.

I can't help but think that if he was a little girl, all that sensitivity would be cherished and he'd be allowed to do dance and art instead of sport. But it's not obvious to me if that would be better. I have a lot of women friends who were raised in a delicate, protected way, and they're always being overwhelmed by the slightest opposition.
The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2014 1:08:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/1/2014 12:49:04 AM, Garbanza wrote:
My friend has a 5-year-old son who is enormously sensitive. He hates sport, cries at the slightest thing, and is sensitive to colors and nature, other people's feelings etc. Anyway, he's always being dragged to sports class (which he hates), and being told to toughen up.

I can't help but think that if he was a little girl, all that sensitivity would be cherished and he'd be allowed to do dance and art instead of sport. But it's not obvious to me if that would be better. I have a lot of women friends who were raised in a delicate, protected way, and they're always being overwhelmed by the slightest opposition.

I feel bad for your friend's son. It sounds like he may have some sort of anxiety disorder, but I'm the farthest thing from a professional, so take my psychiatric advice with a grain of salt. I agree with you on the part about him being treated differently if he was a girl. What you described kind of reminds me of my fears when I was little. My parents sent my brother and I to a therapist instead of forcing us to play sports.

I also agree with you on the last bit. There are a lot of girls at my school who panic at bees and spiders that it's borderline ridiculous. The screamers are the worst. There aren't any like that in the male population, however. I fear these girls are going to grow up with the idea that they can act this way in real life, and then be disappointed when they aren't very respected in a professional environment.

It sounds a bit harsh, and possibly harmful to treat a sensitive kid like that so tough, but he still has to learn to get over his fears. But if he isn't interested in something, it wouldn't be right to force him into a box because of his gender.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2014 1:35:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Declaration of War

The_Glass_Ego: Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again.

The Fool: I am a well read, well educated, battle hardened MRA. MRA doesn't have an Ideology, like Feminism has Feminist Theory. We work from a context to context bases, with reason an empirical facts rather then subjective, theory.

The Key Problem Between FEM and MRA is that Feminist outrightly deny Men to have their own Voice on their own issues, while they have a Monopoly on gender studies and research. They don't want MRA to be able to point out all the corrupted methods that have been used to promotes and demonize men through Propaganda, for the last 30 to 40 years.

The_Glass_Ego: or instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy.

The Fool: If you are strong then you should just BE strong. They very fact that people need to help you, or cater for you to be strong suggest that you are not strong. Who even cares about what on TV at all. Who cares? The person who is strong doesn't a rats as-s about what going on on tv. You just get our there and Giv-er.

The_Glass_Ego: Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate.

The Fool: No one cares if someone is effeminate, its just makes him wimpy, that doesn't mean its Hate. Hate is a strong work and your throwing it around like nothing.

The_Glass_Ego: Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!

Against The Ideologist

Ha yeah right!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2014 10:40:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Okay, just to make this clear, this forum is for problem solving issues people may have related to gender. Not a place for arguing over any sort of groups. This is about the individual. So please, refrain from mentioning specific groups, such as Feminism or MRA. If you want to discuss that, there are plenty of other forums open for that discussion. Thank you for your understanding.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2014 4:53:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
<(8D)

Against The Ideology

Probably want to turn it down. Sound is distorted
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2014 4:55:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!
I know you meant well, Glass, but I'm going to try to tell you why your idea simply cannot work. The very problem between feminists and MRAs is that they are so strongly opposed to the world-view of the other. They simply cannot solve problems because the very divide occurs in their belief of the validity of certain problems and the approach of the other to solving those problems. For instance, a common feminist response to most problems experienced by males or females is "the patriarchy did it". Well, MRAs believe in the patriarchy (as feminists claim it exists) about as much as they believe in Santa Claus and therefor cannot logically incorporate any ideas involving the patriarchy hypothesis any more than they could say,"what if we prayed to the god Zulu to help solve our problems! That'll do it!" Feminists frequently have trouble involving solutions that do not completely rely on their collection of hypotheses as the foundation for their entire world view, and MRAs simply cannot accept feminist dogmatic beliefs as having any basis in reality, especially when there is so much evidence and reason that would contradict feminist ideology.

Also, MRAs believe in at least some level of personal responsibility and reject victim-hood as being very useful in trying to create solutions (although they do not deny that some people are definitely victimized at times, and it isn't just women by a long shot). So, if a person didn't lock their doors and was robbed, an MRA would say,"I'm incredibly sorry that that has happened to you. Well, we cannot control the actions of the robbers, unfortunately, and robbers aren't actually really concerned with the moral implications of their actions in the first place, so there are only so many useful actions to try and take with the robbers until we can think of something better. Although I totally, 100% agree that you don't deserve to have your things stolen on any level, it is only reasonable that you should lock your doors and take precautions to protect yourself so that you can at least greatly diminish the odds of being robbed. If you live in a bad neighborhood (or are visiting one), it might be necessary to take extra precautions in order to protect yourself and your possessions. I hate that we should have to do that as much as anyone but, unfortunately, it is necessary and the only intelligent thing to do." If MRAs uses this same type of approach to gender-related issues, however, feminists would frequently call it "victim blaming", which an MRA would believe to be a complete road-block in trying to help people protect themselves. These are only a couple of the many divides, but it probably gives an idea why this simply won't work.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2014 5:55:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!

I appreciate what you're well-meaningly making a pitch for here, however I'm afraid that it's rather unrealistic to think that it's possible to raise the public's consciousness about gender inequality issues and the harm done to LGBT folks by heterosexism without criticizing intolerance and engaging in verbal battle with those who advocate it. That is, one can't always play nice when one is up against rightists and other bigots. Some amount of mild polemicism, if not open and intense hostility, will inevitably creep into or crash the party of polite and productive public discourse that you're proposing. This is simply the way it is, and you're simply going to have to learn to roll with it.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2014 5:59:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 4:55:14 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!
I know you meant well, Glass, but I'm going to try to tell you why your idea simply cannot work. The very problem between feminists and MRAs is that they are so strongly opposed to the world-view of the other. They simply cannot solve problems because the very divide occurs in their belief of the validity of certain problems and the approach of the other to solving those problems. For instance, a common feminist response to most problems experienced by males or females is "the patriarchy did it". Well, MRAs believe in the patriarchy (as feminists claim it exists) about as much as they believe in Santa Claus and therefor cannot logically incorporate any ideas involving the patriarchy hypothesis any more than they could say,"what if we prayed to the god Zulu to help solve our problems! That'll do it!" Feminists frequently have trouble involving solutions that do not completely rely on their collection of hypotheses as the foundation for their entire world view, and MRAs simply cannot accept feminist dogmatic beliefs as having any basis in reality, especially when there is so much evidence and reason that would contradict feminist ideology.

Also, MRAs believe in at least some level of personal responsibility and reject victim-hood as being very useful in trying to create solutions (although they do not deny that some people are definitely victimized at times, and it isn't just women by a long shot). So, if a person didn't lock their doors and was robbed, an MRA would say,"I'm incredibly sorry that that has happened to you. Well, we cannot control the actions of the robbers, unfortunately, and robbers aren't actually really concerned with the moral implications of their actions in the first place, so there are only so many useful actions to try and take with the robbers until we can think of something better. Although I totally, 100% agree that you don't deserve to have your things stolen on any level, it is only reasonable that you should lock your doors and take precautions to protect yourself so that you can at least greatly diminish the odds of being robbed. If you live in a bad neighborhood (or are visiting one), it might be necessary to take extra precautions in order to protect yourself and your possessions. I hate that we should have to do that as much as anyone but, unfortunately, it is necessary and the only intelligent thing to do." If MRAs uses this same type of approach to gender-related issues, however, feminists would frequently call it "victim blaming", which an MRA would believe to be a complete road-block in trying to help people protect themselves. These are only a couple of the many divides, but it probably gives an idea why this simply won't work.

Thanks for commenting! I understand why you would think that feminists and MRA wouldn't be able to join forces, but that's precisely why this forum was created. I think the biggest problem is that both parties seem to think that the other side is against them, when in fact, they have the same ultimate goals; gender equality. my best friend is a feminist, she doesn't hate men. Likewise, I take it that you're a MRA. But you don't hate women, and you were actually really polite in your response. Like my friend, I'm going to assume that you just want gender equality. While the issues plaguing the respective genders may not be the same, it all stems from ignorance and fear, I think. If we can all just agree on one thing that both MRA and Feminists don't like, all the two groups would really have to do is work together without turning on each other, and if we can collect good people from every side, that shouldn't be hard, right?
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2014 6:33:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 5:59:52 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:

Thanks for commenting! I understand why you would think that feminists and MRA wouldn't be able to join forces, but that's precisely why this forum was created. I think the biggest problem is that both parties seem to think that the other side is against them, when in fact, they have the same ultimate goals; gender equality. my best friend is a feminist, she doesn't hate men. Likewise, I take it that you're a MRA. But you don't hate women, and you were actually really polite in your response. Like my friend, I'm going to assume that you just want gender equality. While the issues plaguing the respective genders may not be the same, it all stems from ignorance and fear, I think. If we can all just agree on one thing that both MRA and Feminists don't like, all the two groups would really have to do is work together without turning on each other, and if we can collect good people from every side, that shouldn't be hard, right?
You're right, but only in a way. The very problem between feminists and MRAs is that they generally have strongly opposing views on what "gender equality" actually would look like and how it could be enacted and although I agree that misconceptions about the opposite side is a problem, it really is only a part of it. If feminists and MRAs could even agree on what gender equality means, then there is the problem on agreeing what the actual problem is and what actually causes it. In other words, for what you're asking to even be possible, one side or the other has to actually completely change their entire world view. Asking someone to change the entire way that they think about any particular subject is something that mankind has struggled with since the dawn of time. It's what practically all wars are fought over, all religions are about, the whole point of politics, etc. Every massive divide in humanity comes down to this same problem on how to correspond world-views (especially in regards to what is the problem, what is the solution, and what outcome is preferred). I really really wish you good luck, though, Glass (and I really mean that with every last bit of my heart and soul). If you can solve this one issue that divides all of humanity into opposing groups, then you will have probably solved all of the world's problems in one single effort and I would personally worship the ground you walk on for having made the most important discovery that anyone has ever, or will ever, make. Unfortunately, the only answer to this problem that people seem to be able to come up with so far is,"Well, if only the other side would stop being such a dumb@ss/bigot/misogynist/misandrist/racist/sinner/bio-truther/rightist/leftist/extremist/conformist/etc." and that answer hasn't really been useful so far.
The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2014 6:45:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 5:55:13 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!

I appreciate what you're well-meaningly making a pitch for here, however I'm afraid that it's rather unrealistic to think that it's possible to raise the public's consciousness about gender inequality issues and the harm done to LGBT folks by heterosexism without criticizing intolerance and engaging in verbal battle with those who advocate it. That is, one can't always play nice when one is up against rightists and other bigots. Some amount of mild polemicism, if not open and intense hostility, will inevitably creep into or crash the party of polite and productive public discourse that you're proposing. This is simply the way it is, and you're simply going to have to learn to roll with it.

Thanks for joining in! I'm not an idiot, and I know that there are going to be trolls and bigots in every forum. But I think that in order to make the changes that most people agree need to be made, all movements need to agree to work together, despite the fact that some of their members may or may not be the scum of the earth. I've heard a lot of groups claim that they just want equality, and that it's their opponents who are evil, so, this could be everyone's chance to prove how not evil they really are, and at he same time, help their cause. You get to prove your enemies wrong, and accomplish your goals, which I think is pretty awesome! So even if you do think that this is all for naught, I think everyone would appreciate feedback on certain issues that everyone can agree on. Once, a trust is established between groups, then they can debate with clear heads, after realizing that their enemies aren't evil after all. Also, what happens in the future that seems to crush everyone's faith in humanity?
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2014 3:23:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 6:45:59 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
At 11/3/2014 5:55:13 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!

I appreciate what you're well-meaningly making a pitch for here, however I'm afraid that it's rather unrealistic to think that it's possible to raise the public's consciousness about gender inequality issues and the harm done to LGBT folks by heterosexism without criticizing intolerance and engaging in verbal battle with those who advocate it. That is, one can't always play nice when one is up against rightists and other bigots. Some amount of mild polemicism, if not open and intense hostility, will inevitably creep into or crash the party of polite and productive public discourse that you're proposing. This is simply the way it is, and you're simply going to have to learn to roll with it.

Thanks for joining in! I'm not an idiot, and I know that there are going to be trolls and bigots in every forum. But I think that in order to make the changes that most people agree need to be made, all movements need to agree to work together, despite the fact that some of their members may or may not be the scum of the earth. I've heard a lot of groups claim that they just want equality, and that it's their opponents who are evil, so, this could be everyone's chance to prove how not evil they really are, and at he same time, help their cause. You get to prove your enemies wrong, and accomplish your goals, which I think is pretty awesome! So even if you do think that this is all for naught, I think everyone would appreciate feedback on certain issues that everyone can agree on. Once, a trust is established between groups, then they can debate with clear heads, after realizing that their enemies aren't evil after all. Also, what happens in the future that seems to crush everyone's faith in humanity?

Well, I maintain that sexism and discrimination against the LGBT community is of course an ethical question, it involves questions of right and wrong regarding how we personally and as a society view, value, and treat women and nonstraight individuals. Which means that it's simply impossible to discuss the topics of sexism and heterosexism without thinking and talking in terms of the correctness and incorrectness of the various responses to women and LGBTers seeking equality.

That is, conservatives and other sexists & homophobes will condemn equal rights for women and gays as wrong and wrongheaded. And, conversely, progressives and feminists and folks who aren't invested in being male chauvinists and anti-gay will argue that supporting the women's and gay rights movements is the right thing to do, and that sexism and bigotry are quite simply wrong. And, well, one can't very well claim that one's stance is correct and that the stance of those on the other side of the issue isn't without irritating and offending those on the other side of the issue. For instance, you can't tell those who would assign women to a certain circumscribed role in society, or who would deny equal legal status to homosexuals and the differently gendered that their point of view isn't very nice and needs to be questioned without affronting them and finding oneself in an argument.

In short, these issues are inherently controversial and contentious, and there's simply no way to take a stand that doesn't imply that your opponent is wrong and that won't offend him/her. (And no, criticizing those whom you disagree with doesn't make one an unnice person, even Gandhi had a few critical words for British imperialists when he was struggling to free his people from their hegemony.)
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
The_Glass_Ego
Posts: 14
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2014 3:50:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 3:23:48 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 11/3/2014 6:45:59 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
At 11/3/2014 5:55:13 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/31/2014 10:24:56 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:
Hi, I was just thinking, maybe there could be a forum where both FEM and MRA could just state instances where they've felt like their gender has hindered them. But instead of debating on which ideology is better, or which gender has it worse, we could all just be nice and discuss ways where we could prevent such things from happening again. For instance, one problem I've observed is that in many tv shows and movies I have seen, the only way a girl can become strong is my behaving more like a boy. Meanwhile, if a boy adopts more traditionally feminine habits, he get's significantly more hate. Instead of discussing who has it worse, or why one group is wrong, I think everyone would be a lot more happy if we discussed how to spread awareness of these issues, and to prevent them from happening again. Also, if there are any trans or non binary people who would like to discuss these issues as well, I think it would be great to have as many perspectives on gender as possible! Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you on the forum soon!

I appreciate what you're well-meaningly making a pitch for here, however I'm afraid that it's rather unrealistic to think that it's possible to raise the public's consciousness about gender inequality issues and the harm done to LGBT folks by heterosexism without criticizing intolerance and engaging in verbal battle with those who advocate it. That is, one can't always play nice when one is up against rightists and other bigots. Some amount of mild polemicism, if not open and intense hostility, will inevitably creep into or crash the party of polite and productive public discourse that you're proposing. This is simply the way it is, and you're simply going to have to learn to roll with it.

Thanks for joining in! I'm not an idiot, and I know that there are going to be trolls and bigots in every forum. But I think that in order to make the changes that most people agree need to be made, all movements need to agree to work together, despite the fact that some of their members may or may not be the scum of the earth. I've heard a lot of groups claim that they just want equality, and that it's their opponents who are evil, so, this could be everyone's chance to prove how not evil they really are, and at he same time, help their cause. You get to prove your enemies wrong, and accomplish your goals, which I think is pretty awesome! So even if you do think that this is all for naught, I think everyone would appreciate feedback on certain issues that everyone can agree on. Once, a trust is established between groups, then they can debate with clear heads, after realizing that their enemies aren't evil after all. Also, what happens in the future that seems to crush everyone's faith in humanity?

Well, I maintain that sexism and discrimination against the LGBT community is of course an ethical question, it involves questions of right and wrong regarding how we personally and as a society view, value, and treat women and nonstraight individuals. Which means that it's simply impossible to discuss the topics of sexism and heterosexism without thinking and talking in terms of the correctness and incorrectness of the various responses to women and LGBTers seeking equality.

That is, conservatives and other sexists & homophobes will condemn equal rights for women and gays as wrong and wrongheaded. And, conversely, progressives and feminists and folks who aren't invested in being male chauvinists and anti-gay will argue that supporting the women's and gay rights movements is the right thing to do, and that sexism and bigotry are quite simply wrong. And, well, one can't very well claim that one's stance is correct and that the stance of those on the other side of the issue isn't without irritating and offending those on the other side of the issue. For instance, you can't tell those who would assign women to a certain circumscribed role in society, or who would deny equal legal status to homosexuals and the differently gendered that their point of view isn't very nice and needs to be questioned without affronting them and finding oneself in an argument.

In short, these issues are inherently controversial and contentious, and there's simply no way to take a stand that doesn't imply that your opponent is wrong and that won't offend him/her. (And no, criticizing those whom you disagree with doesn't make one an unnice person, even Gandhi had a few critical words for British imperialists when he was struggling to free his people from their hegemony.)

But I'm only trying to get the MRA and FEM to work together. I thought that both sides were pro LGBTQ? Was I wrong? And I completely agree that the issues you mentioned are very serious ethical issues. I just thought that both sides had the same goals. Oh no, did I humiliate myself on the internet again?
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2014 4:26:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 3:50:48 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:

But I'm only trying to get the MRA and FEM to work together. I thought that both sides were pro LGBTQ? Was I wrong? And I completely agree that the issues you mentioned are very serious ethical issues. I just thought that both sides had the same goals. Oh no, did I humiliate myself on the internet again?
I can tell you that most MRAs I have seen and spoken to and the majority of supporters of the MHRM (Men's Human Rights Movement, if you didn't know the acronym) are indeed pro LGBTQ. In fact, one of the biggest and most well-known activists in the MHRM is actuall bisexual AND a woman (Karen Straughan AKA Girl Writes What) as well as many previous feminists. In fact, one of the heads of the entire movement was Erin Pizzey, who started on of the first women's shelters in the world. There are also many conservatives that support the LGBTQ community as well (I'm not a conservative or liberal, but I know many who are on both sides and bigots exist in every group, like you said earlier, they just tend to flavor their bigotry a little differently).

It is also completely untrue that MRAs, anti-feminists, OR conservatives do not support equal rights for women or that they hate women. It is untrue that MRAs, anti-feminists, OR conservatives do not support equal pay, support rape in any way, want women to only be house-wives, etc. These are simply shaming tactics that are used to slander the MHRM and try to dishonestly make people repulsed by that side of the debate and therefor inappropriately give bias to uneducated observers before they've even heard the arguments from MRAs directly. You should, of course, judge any group by its principles and the arguments that they actually make rather than what the opposite side says about them. The MRHM fights for equality. I want equality for women and men and I care very deeply about the issues that both face. I want all men, women, LGBTQ, and people of all races to be treated fairly and equally and to have equal opportunities in life.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2014 4:30:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:26:49 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
as well as many previous feminists.
I obviously meant this to read,"as well as many who were previously feminists". The point is, they care very much about women's issues (which is why they were feminists in the first place), but they did not feel like feminism was the right way to go or was actually helpful to women.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2014 11:26:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 3:50:48 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:

But I'm only trying to get the MRA and FEM to work together. I thought that both sides were pro LGBTQ? Was I wrong? And I completely agree that the issues you mentioned are very serious ethical issues. I just thought that both sides had the same goals. Oh no, did I humiliate myself on the internet again?

No, not at all. Actually I very much admire your kind intentions and desire to approach the issues in question in a conciliatory spirit of "Can't we all just get along". But I remain of the view that it's not possible and not correct to be entirely verbally benign and noncontroversial when addressing sexism, anti-feminism, and heterosexist bigotry.

As for MRAs*, well, they may not all be completely and openly Neanerthaloid, but the men's rights types that I've come across have all had at least a subtle streak of that primitively masculine mentality that has its issues with what it perceives to be the unmanliness of homosexuality, in particular the effeminacy of so-called "flamers", and the manlikeness of some lesbians. And of course there's at least an element of sexism, male chauvinism, SDO (social dominance orientation), and lack of sympathy to their benighted antipathy and opposition to feminism.

Well, men's rights types are rather like white Negrophobes who aren't out-and-out haters but who wouldn't want their daughter to marry an African American, and who think that blacks are disproportionately represented in the prison population simply because they're more prone to commit crimes. That is, they aren't evil but they certainly suffer from a serious lack of enlightenment. Well, these are simply unfortunate realities that one needs to come to terms with when dealing with the masculinist and rightist opponents of feminism and LGBT rights. If you don't, well, then you'll be letting yourself in for a rude awakening.

* The first four definitions hit the nail on the head, http://www.urbandictionary.com...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2014 7:50:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:26:42 PM, charleslb wrote:

* The first four definitions hit the nail on the head, http://www.urbandictionary.com...
Is it a coincidence that three of those were written by the same person? I think not!

Btw, this was that same person's definition of the word "male":

"A life support system for a penis. Is replaceable by a dildo. Soon to be abolished."

Here is a definition that she gave for "man":

" The ultimate source of all EVIL
Men cause war
Men cause pain
Men hate women
Men hate everyone who's different
Men are obsolete
Man will destroy the world"

She sounds like such a lovely person and so completely unbiased on anything related to men, right? Is that the type of "enlightenment" that you're saying the "bigot MRAs" need to have? I'd say her thoughts on what it means to be an MRA, what MRAs actually stand for, or what they are like on a personal level are about as reliable, unbiased, and knowledgeable as yours.

Btw, here is a link if you'd like to see the other wonderful and unbiased definitions this person has come up with:
http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Also, if MRAs are so hateful of all these opposing groups, then why at the first "International Conference on Men's Issues" did they ask women to be five out of the fifteen speakers that were there? Of those speakers were:

Karen Straughan whom I spoke of earlier.

Erin Pizzey who opened one of the first battered women's shelters in the world

Senator Anne Cools who is the first black Canadian to be appointed to Canada's upper house.

Dr. Warren Farrell who actually served on the New York City Board of the National Organization of Women.

...just to name a few. Not only were there five women, but three of the speakers were also black. If MRAs are such bigots, then why did they purposefully ask five women (one of which is openly bisexual), black people, and previous feminists to come and represent them and speak for them and their issues in their first conference that was meant to be an international affair? Trying to pass it off as "trying to get good publicity" or "trying to hide their secret bigotry" just doesn't hold any water, especially because a lot of these speakers were very educated and knew the movement quite well and still CHOSE to prepare a speech. Besides, not all MRAs are "rightists" by any means, so you can stop trying to act as thought they are one and the same because they aren't. And also, being opposed to feminism does not equal being opposed to LGBTQ rights on any level. Feminism and LGBTQ are NOT one and the same and are completely separate movements.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2014 2:43:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Btw, if you still want to try and pull the,"MRAs are hateful of LGBTQ and anyone who isn't a masculine-presenting male and feminine-presenting woman" garbage, here is a survey with 600 participants of the MHRM that asked them about their age/religion/sexuality/gender/etc. Of the 600 participants, 18.83% identified as being non-heterosexual, which means that almost 1 in 5 MRAs are not heterosexual. The idea that MRAs hate anyone that isn't heterosexual or doesn't fit into gender stereotypes is just ridiculous and doesn't have any basis in fact.

http://www.reddit.com...
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2014 2:47:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I also thought it interesting to point out that 116 of participants identified as democrat and only 32 as republican. That equals about 4 times as many "leftists" as "rightists", so you can just stop with associating the MHRM with "rightists" as well.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2014 6:06:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:26:42 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:50:48 PM, The_Glass_Ego wrote:

But I'm only trying to get the MRA and FEM to work together. I thought that both sides were pro LGBTQ? Was I wrong? And I completely agree that the issues you mentioned are very serious ethical issues. I just thought that both sides had the same goals. Oh no, did I humiliate myself on the internet again?

No, not at all. Actually I very much admire your kind intentions and desire to approach the issues in question in a conciliatory spirit of "Can't we all just get along". But I remain of the view that it's not possible and not correct to be entirely verbally benign and noncontroversial when addressing sexism, anti-feminism, and heterosexist bigotry.

As for MRAs*, well, they may not all be completely and openly Neanerthaloid, but the men's rights types that I've come across have all had at least a subtle streak of that primitively masculine mentality that has its issues with what it perceives to be the unmanliness of homosexuality, in particular the effeminacy of so-called "flamers", and the manlikeness of some lesbians. And of course there's at least an element of sexism, male chauvinism, SDO (social dominance orientation), and lack of sympathy to their benighted antipathy and opposition to feminism.

Well, men's rights types are rather like white Negrophobes who aren't out-and-out haters but who wouldn't want their daughter to marry an African American, and who think that blacks are disproportionately represented in the prison population simply because they're more prone to commit crimes. That is, they aren't evil but they certainly suffer from a serious lack of enlightenment. Well, these are simply unfortunate realities that one needs to come to terms with when dealing with the masculinist and rightist opponents of feminism and LGBT rights. If you don't, well, then you'll be letting yourself in for a rude awakening.


* The first four definitions hit the nail on the head, http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Btw, folks, don't allow DDO's MRAs to BS you with their "We're just nice guys who've been put on the defensive by aggressive feminists" caca, masculinists do in fact tend to suffer from either an in-your-face or an underlying bias and hostility against feminism, and to be less than beautifully progressive on the issue of gay rights.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2014 7:35:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 6:06:27 PM, charleslb wrote:

Btw, folks, don't allow DDO's MRAs to BS you with their "We're just nice guys who've been put on the defensive by aggressive feminists" caca, masculinists do in fact tend to suffer from either an in-your-face or an underlying bias and hostility against feminism, and to be less than beautifully progressive on the issue of gay rights.

Aaah, your usual,"Things are this way, contrary to all facts and evidence, because I want it to be that way and I say so. And no one can ever disagree with feminism for the same reasons." And yet MRAs are the ones BS'ing people. O.k., Charles, whatever.....
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/6/2014 12:20:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Declaration of War
Part 2

Scorched Earth

Charleslb: I appreciate what you're well-meaningly making a pitch for here, however I'm afraid that it's rather unrealistic to think that it's possible to raise the public's consciousness about gender inequality issues and the harm done to LGBT folks by heterosexism without criticizing intolerance and engaging in verbal battle with those who advocate it.

The Fool: How is it LGBT gets to define the term "hetrosexism" as an evil? Why can"t you use the term Term anti-gayism or something. Hell, even is homophobe better then that. Using the term hetrosexism that way makes it seem like there is something wrong with simply being heterosexual. It"s an intentional misnomer, like your other attempts at mis-information.
<(80)

If it wasn"t for Religion a lot more hetrosexuals would be tolerant, as they were also before. But it is not by virtue of being hetrosexual, which is what is being alluded.

Yes of course there is always going to be an original bias to ones own familiarities, which is magnified by a false consensus effect. This injustice which we can partially grow out of at least when we recognize ourselves in or through others, but perhaps only fully through the enlightenment when one finally realizes that one"s well-being, and that which preserves, and promotes it is the only value, the Good itself "as you will", and that it is the same for all individuals, and thus equal in worth to all, of and across all sentient beings, universally; a principle which ought not be contradicted, and when it must, the least path of contradiction should be taken.

I call this understanding, Essential Egalitarianism, to discriminate from Classical Egalitarianism or Mob Egalitarianism where simply acting, thinking, and doing the same things are confused for what is essentially valuable, like one who confuses the value of money itself with the value to be gotten from how it is used.

But to fully realize this is more then simply hearing a fool say so. It"s a wisdom which we learn more or less, through time, experience, and perhaps heavy contemplation, but just as we give children a chance to grow and learn to cope with change, the same tolerance, and in some cases more respect, should be an essentially similar approach given to people and groups. For if you "fight fire with fire" will all get burned.
<(89)

Or at least that"s what fool one told me.
<(8D)

Against The Ideologist

But I was high at the time.
<(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/7/2014 6:39:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 12:20:46 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:

The Fool: How is it LGBT gets to define the term "hetrosexism" as an evil? Why can"t you use the term Term anti-gayism or something. Hell, even is homophobe better then that. Using the term hetrosexism that way makes it seem like there is something wrong with simply being heterosexual. It"s an intentional misnomer, like your other attempts at mis-information.
<(80)
I agree with this. I always disliked the term "heterosexism", because it acts like being a heterosexual or portraying yourself in a heterosexual way (or as a feminine-presenting woman or a masculine-presenting man) is somehow wrong, inferior, or is hurting someone else. It also implies that a person cannot support heterosexuality AND LGBTQ at the same time, or that anything heterosexual equals bad and anything non-heterosexual equals good. It is a bad word and homophobia is much better to use for the purpose and doesn't imply any negative connotations towards heterosexuality or the idea that being a heterosexual or presenting yourself as one automatically makes you a bigot or a horrible person or something. It is perfectly reasonable to find value in both heterosexuality AND other sexualities as well. There really is no need whatsoever to degrade one to uplift the others. I think people need to put more thought into which words they choose to represent a certain idea or concept. I know that those things are not necessarily what people always mean by "heterosexism", but it still is not the best word.