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What the FUDGE?!

Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/12/2014 8:10:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

Fo sho.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Defro
Posts: 847
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11/12/2014 9:54:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

LOL

I remember this was really big on the news when I was a kid.
I remember seeing the guy/girl get interviewed and I was wtf...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 9:56:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?

Not really. Our classificatioms were inadequate it accurately describe reality. As such, the classificatioms need to be expanded for accuracy. Trying to force groupings together for politically correct reasons when there are differences to be noted is intellectually unwise.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/12/2014 10:01:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 9:56:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?

Not really. Our classificatioms were inadequate it accurately describe reality. As such, the classificatioms need to be expanded for accuracy. Trying to force groupings together for politically correct reasons when there are differences to be noted is intellectually unwise.

Force groupings? Are you referring to yer dichotomy between societal and scientific definitions of gender?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 10:54:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 10:01:23 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:56:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?

Not really. Our classificatioms were inadequate it accurately describe reality. As such, the classificatioms need to be expanded for accuracy. Trying to force groupings together for politically correct reasons when there are differences to be noted is intellectually unwise.

Force groupings? Are you referring to yer dichotomy between societal and scientific definitions of gender?

No, that is referring to both societal and scientific. PC often attempts to change the definition to remove the distinction when there is a distinction. It is usually done with societal but still done with scientific as well.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/12/2014 11:16:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 10:54:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 10:01:23 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:56:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?

Not really. Our classificatioms were inadequate it accurately describe reality. As such, the classificatioms need to be expanded for accuracy. Trying to force groupings together for politically correct reasons when there are differences to be noted is intellectually unwise.

Force groupings? Are you referring to yer dichotomy between societal and scientific definitions of gender?

No, that is referring to both societal and scientific. PC often attempts to change the definition to remove the distinction when there is a distinction. It is usually done with societal but still done with scientific as well.

I'm sorry I stopped reading at PC.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/12/2014 11:50:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 11:16:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 10:54:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 10:01:23 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:56:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:48:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

I take it you interpret the existence of transgender people as a socially-induced deviation from a scientific norm rather than as an injunction to reevaluate the way that those concepts were developed in the first place?

Not really. Our classificatioms were inadequate it accurately describe reality. As such, the classificatioms need to be expanded for accuracy. Trying to force groupings together for politically correct reasons when there are differences to be noted is intellectually unwise.

Force groupings? Are you referring to yer dichotomy between societal and scientific definitions of gender?

No, that is referring to both societal and scientific. PC often attempts to change the definition to remove the distinction when there is a distinction. It is usually done with societal but still done with scientific as well.

I'm sorry I stopped reading at PC.

Was that a reply that needed saying? In the time it took you to post that, you could have finished the two other massive sentences.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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11/13/2014 4:37:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

Being arbitrarily called man or woman by society, doesn't make you a man or a woman either.

And btw there's no scientific definition for "men and women", only for "male and female", which is essentially a difference on gametes production, not even a difference in chromosomes as not all life with different sexes is determined by the XY-system.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/13/2014 9:49:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 4:37:24 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

Being arbitrarily called man or woman by society, doesn't make you a man or a woman either.

As seeing as words don't have objective meanings and only the meanings we as a society assign, it kinda does.


And btw there's no scientific definition for "men and women", only for "male and female", which is essentially a difference on gametes production, not even a difference in chromosomes as not all life with different sexes is determined by the XY-system.

It's a synonym for male and female, which is defined by the ability to produce either eggs or sperm (for animals, "fruit" for plants).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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11/13/2014 4:01:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

It's biologically a woman, so why are they talking about it like it's some kind of medical miracle or something that belongs in the Guinness Book of World Records?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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11/13/2014 5:17:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 9:49:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/13/2014 4:37:24 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:36:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:39:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:34:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 8:07:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:57:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/12/2014 5:44:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com...

What's the question or concern? A transgender person got pregnant and gave birth?

I'm also not seeing what the concern is. Is Vox reacting to the part of the article where the doctor said: shave your beard or I won't deliver your baby for you. Cuz that's messed up.

There's the problem. I missed the "read more" part and thought it was just a few paragraph thing that said that a "man" gave birth.

Quotations?

Lol, that was in large part because just shortly before you accused me of being transphobic (which you're "phobia" incorrectly, just FYI). I probably hold a different view than you on the matter. There are societal definitions for men and women, and there are scientific definitions. Taking hormones does not make you a man or a woman.

Being arbitrarily called man or woman by society, doesn't make you a man or a woman either.

As seeing as words don't have objective meanings and only the meanings we as a society assign, it kinda does.

But according to the meaning of the words, a transgender man can perfectly be a woman. And according to the etimology of the word, woman, which comes from wifman, means "man's wife" which is something a transgender can be too.

Another problem is assuming "society" thinks a particular way and gives a particular meaning to a word, which we don't know, or at least I don't, because I don't assume society thinks like me.


And btw there's no scientific definition for "men and women", only for "male and female", which is essentially a difference on gametes production, not even a difference in chromosomes as not all life with different sexes is determined by the XY-system.

It's a synonym for male and female,

No, male and female are scientific concepts, man and woman are philosophical concepts which often, but not always, coincide with the human male / human female concepts.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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11/13/2014 6:27:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Fool: You know it's more "Fudged" up?

For many Muslims transgender is morally permissible, but homosexuality is punishable by death.

WTF?

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL