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Sexual Entitlement and Feminism

jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.

Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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11/17/2014 8:34:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

DEATH TO MALES! DEATH TO MALES! ALL MEN ARE SAVAGE RAPISTS WHO NEED TO BE STERILIZED BY TEH GUVERMINT!
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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11/17/2014 8:50:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

What does "deserve" sex mean, exactly? Because a lot of people are unattractive to the point where nobody could want to fvck them. Suppose those people "deserve" sex? Does that mean that society is obliged to somehow provide them with their preferred sexual experience?

Because I foresee some problems with implementation.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 10:30:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 8:50:17 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

What does "deserve" sex mean, exactly? Because a lot of people are unattractive to the point where nobody could want to fvck them. Suppose those people "deserve" sex? Does that mean that society is obliged to somehow provide them with their preferred sexual experience?

Because I foresee some problems with implementation.

I agree. But, feminists see male sexual entitlement as the root of all society's problems but then also push female sexual entitlement, without admitting it.

But, to your point, I don't believe society owes these people anything. But, then again, I am a libertarian. I don't think society owes people food, shelter, etc just because they managed to crawl out of a vaginaa.

But, if shelter, health care, etc are rights so should be sex. That would mean, yes, a program that provides low status males with access to sex.

Again, I oppose that. But, liberals and progressives who are also feminists should probably support that unless they can just admit they dont much care for men.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.

Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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11/17/2014 10:41:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.


Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.

Buy it, like any other bloke that is that hard up. I'm not female, and I am not high status. Growing up, I might not have had -ease- in finding sex, but it wasn't an impossible goal. Maybe they are involuntarily celebate because they expect sex on their own terms, when they want it, and with whom. If some one makes no effort in attracting the opposite sex, it stands to reason they won't get the opposite sex.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/17/2014 11:03:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Sex is not deserved. No one said disgusting pigs. Stop giving straw arguments and have the courage to critique real feminist arguments, and not your own words.

And yes, a male or female who says they *deserve* sex (as if their opinion decides what their partners do with their bodies) is perpetuating an ideology of rape. That is literally one of the things that rapists say--that they are owed sex by their victims.

Gross.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life

Let me stop you there. I agree that being female does not mean you are owed sex, but who says anything about females deserving sex? You are arguing against the phantoms of feminist arguments of your own device. This is getting silly.

and are entitled to birth control.

I do think they are entitled to birth control. That seems like a basic right in this day and age. People should be in control of their own bodies generally, but even more importantly pregnancies should be intentional as much as possible. Birth control helps prevent abortions too.

Forget you if you think that is the same as being entitled to get laid.

If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Thanks for the red herrings, and congratulations on winning an argument against yourself. Next time, though, I encourage you to fight a real opponent, instead of creating arguments for you to beat.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:04:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:41:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.


Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.

Buy it, like any other bloke that is that hard up. I'm not female, and I am not high status. Growing up, I might not have had -ease- in finding sex, but it wasn't an impossible goal. Maybe they are involuntarily celebate because they expect sex on their own terms, when they want it, and with whom. If some one makes no effort in attracting the opposite sex, it stands to reason they won't get the opposite sex.

Okay. Then you favor legalizing prostitution (so do I). On the other hand, I look at ur profile and see u favor national health care.

That means you think people have a RIGHT to have their needs met. I'm sure you see sex as a need. After all, if sex is a privilege, why would women need the state to pay for their birth control?

You can see where I'm going with this. If you were consistent, you would also favor a state program that pays for sex for low status males. That is, unless you harbor some special animosity to this group that makes u think they don't have the same rights women do. That would be odd since you claim to be part of this group.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/17/2014 11:10:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.

No. I disagree that anyone deserves a fulfilled sex life. Sex is consensual: one is never owed sex, not have the right to sex. Sex is a gift (more or less), never a right.

What is this, Victorian England!?! Spouses should never be forced to have sex against their will to fulfill their duty as wife/husband ("spread your legs and think of England" was common advice given to wives who don't wan to have sex). There exists no right to a fulfilled sex life, and in fact most people report that they don't feel fulfilled in terms of their sex life.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:13:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:03:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Sex is not deserved. No one said disgusting pigs. Stop giving straw arguments and have the courage to critique real feminist arguments, and not your own words.

I agree sex is not deserved. But, if you don't think feminists frequently call men pigs, then it is you who is creating a strawman of your own ideology.


And yes, a male or female who says they *deserve* sex (as if their opinion decides what their partners do with their bodies) is perpetuating an ideology of rape. That is literally one of the things that rapists say--that they are owed sex by their victims.

Deserve doesn't equal owed. Although, it is possible that somebody could owe somebody else sex. If you're in Amsterdam, and you pay a prostitute, she owes you sex.

Regardless, feeling like you deserve something like happiness or sex merely means you think you are worthy of such things. Feeling like you are owed these things means you think somebody else, a definable person or group, is depriving you of these needs.

Feminists feel like women are all owed free birth control, for example.


Gross.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life

Let me stop you there. I agree that being female does not mean you are owed sex, but who says anything about females deserving sex? You are arguing against the phantoms of feminist arguments of your own device. This is getting silly.

Again. You think feminism is some rational ideology. But, the reality is that feminism isn't reasonable. You can say I'm strawmanning all day long. I wish I was.

But, the sad reality is that feminism really is that dumb. I realize that feminists don't say "women are owed sex". I never said it was an explicit feminist claim.

Instead, it is an IMPLICIT assumption that feminists use without acknowledging that they do.

The whole idea that women have a "right" to free birth control is based on the belief that women are owed a sex life. That is female sexual entitlement.



and are entitled to birth control.

I do think they are entitled to birth control. That seems like a basic right in this day and age. People should be in control of their own bodies generally, but even more importantly pregnancies should be intentional as much as possible. Birth control helps prevent abortions too.

Forget you if you think that is the same as being entitled to get laid.

Ah but it is. Let's look at the feminist logic here:

1.) Sex is a basic human need
2.) People are entitled to having their needs met
3.) Women cannot have sex safely without birth control
4.} Therefore, there is a right to birth control

Now, if that isn't sexual entitlement, I don't know what is.

If you think there is another way to get to there being a right to birth control, please show me. But, I can't find a single way to get there without having female sexual entitlement at the core.

The same kind of sexual entitlement feminists despise in men.


If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Thanks for the red herrings, and congratulations on winning an argument against yourself. Next time, though, I encourage you to fight a real opponent, instead of creating arguments for you to beat.

Again. I just showed that I'm the one arguing actual feminism. You're trying to make it sound much more reasonable than it actually is.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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11/17/2014 11:18:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:04:51 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:41:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.


Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.

Buy it, like any other bloke that is that hard up. I'm not female, and I am not high status. Growing up, I might not have had -ease- in finding sex, but it wasn't an impossible goal. Maybe they are involuntarily celebate because they expect sex on their own terms, when they want it, and with whom. If some one makes no effort in attracting the opposite sex, it stands to reason they won't get the opposite sex.


Okay. Then you favor legalizing prostitution (so do I). On the other hand, I look at ur profile and see u favor national health care.

That means you think people have a RIGHT to have their needs met. I'm sure you see sex as a need. After all, if sex is a privilege, why would women need the state to pay for their birth control?

You can see where I'm going with this. If you were consistent, you would also favor a state program that pays for sex for low status males. That is, unless you harbor some special animosity to this group that makes u think they don't have the same rights women do. That would be odd since you claim to be part of this group.

I favor a nationalized healthcare because in the event a catastrophic medical event happens to a person without it, currently, other tax payers pick up the dime. A nationalized healthcare infers the person suffering the catastrophic accident has been a tax payer, and is making use of what they have now payed for.

I feel the same way about birth control. Should some one be sexually active, and not have at least cheap methods more widely available, without a nationalized system, the birth of the inevitable child will again be on the tax payer. If the birthcontrol is subsidized, the cost is now a fraction of what it would cost the state/taxpayer compared to the other option.

Sex is not that hard to find. 'low status' males, I think is what you are giving the label to the 'socially inept'. Status is subject to change, station in life is subject to change, depending on amount of investment made. If such 'incels' are so hard up because they are 'low status', then change the low status part.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:18:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:10:28 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.

No. I disagree that anyone deserves a fulfilled sex life. Sex is consensual: one is never owed sex, not have the right to sex. Sex is a gift (more or less), never a right.

What is this, Victorian England!?! Spouses should never be forced to have sex against their will to fulfill their duty as wife/husband ("spread your legs and think of England" was common advice given to wives who don't wan to have sex). There exists no right to a fulfilled sex life, and in fact most people report that they don't feel fulfilled in terms of their sex life.

Yet somehow women have a right to birth control. Ah feminist logic.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:21:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:18:38 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:04:51 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:41:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.


Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.

Buy it, like any other bloke that is that hard up. I'm not female, and I am not high status. Growing up, I might not have had -ease- in finding sex, but it wasn't an impossible goal. Maybe they are involuntarily celebate because they expect sex on their own terms, when they want it, and with whom. If some one makes no effort in attracting the opposite sex, it stands to reason they won't get the opposite sex.


Okay. Then you favor legalizing prostitution (so do I). On the other hand, I look at ur profile and see u favor national health care.

That means you think people have a RIGHT to have their needs met. I'm sure you see sex as a need. After all, if sex is a privilege, why would women need the state to pay for their birth control?

You can see where I'm going with this. If you were consistent, you would also favor a state program that pays for sex for low status males. That is, unless you harbor some special animosity to this group that makes u think they don't have the same rights women do. That would be odd since you claim to be part of this group.

I favor a nationalized healthcare because in the event a catastrophic medical event happens to a person without it, currently, other tax payers pick up the dime. A nationalized healthcare infers the person suffering the catastrophic accident has been a tax payer, and is making use of what they have now payed for.

So. You don't believe in a "right" to health care?


I feel the same way about birth control. Should some one be sexually active, and not have at least cheap methods more widely available, without a nationalized system, the birth of the inevitable child will again be on the tax payer. If the birthcontrol is subsidized, the cost is now a fraction of what it would cost the state/taxpayer compared to the other option.

You don't believe in a "right" to birth control?


Sex is not that hard to find. 'low status' males, I think is what you are giving the label to the 'socially inept'. Status is subject to change, station in life is subject to change, depending on amount of investment made. If such 'incels' are so hard up because they are 'low status', then change the low status part.

Try telling that to an unattractive, low skilled, socially awkward guy with 90 IQ points. Some people really can't change the whole low status thing.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:22:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).

It's an implicit assumption. If you believe that there is a "right" to birth control for women, that is classic sexual entitlement.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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11/17/2014 11:26:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:10:28 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.

No. I disagree that anyone deserves a fulfilled sex life. Sex is consensual: one is never owed sex, not have the right to sex. Sex is a gift (more or less), never a right.

This, I thought was explained in 'expecting it on your terms'...

What is this, Victorian England!?! Spouses should never be forced to have sex against their will to fulfill their duty as wife/husband ("spread your legs and think of England" was common advice given to wives who don't wan to have sex). There exists no right to a fulfilled sex life, and in fact most people report that they don't feel fulfilled in terms of their sex life.

Huh. There is like a whole marital discussion that could be done on this paragraph, but I don't think this website is the venue. Heh.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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11/17/2014 11:27:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Sex for women probably seems better from the outside than it really is
First, most men are unattractive. I think straight men find most women fuckable but it's not the same in reverse. So even though sex is always available, sex with sexy men isn't.
Second, great sex is not a given. A lot of men are bad at sex and unfortunately the good ones are often scumbags. And it's hard to tell from the outside. And bad sex just leaves you feeling angry and frustrated.
And even when it all comes together, which is rare, you have to be in the right frame of mind which, for many women, seems to involve being a total sap.
jimtimmy4
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11/17/2014 11:30:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:27:18 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Sex for women probably seems better from the outside than it really is
First, most men are unattractive. I think straight men find most women fuckable but it's not the same in reverse. So even though sex is always available, sex with sexy men isn't.
Second, great sex is not a given. A lot of men are bad at sex and unfortunately the good ones are often scumbags. And it's hard to tell from the outside. And bad sex just leaves you feeling angry and frustrated.
And even when it all comes together, which is rare, you have to be in the right frame of mind which, for many women, seems to involve being a total sap.

Heterosexual sex, by definition, is even in total amount had by both genders.

But, the distribution of sex is NOT.

Among men, sex is unequally distributed. With men at the top having a lot of sex. Men in the middle having less.

And, some men at the bottom being left out altogether.

For women, it is much more equal. Pretty much any woman is guaranteed to find a guy who will bang them.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/17/2014 11:33:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:22:13 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).

It's an implicit assumption. If you believe that there is a "right" to birth control for women, that is classic sexual entitlement.

There are two realistic responces to this. The first which is a proper response, and a second, which is just as true but cuts more to the heart of the issue.

1) that is a Non Sequitur. A right does not imply an entitlement. Just like the right to the pursuit of happiness is not an entitlement for happiness.

2) You're an idiot.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/17/2014 11:34:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:33:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:22:13 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).

It's an implicit assumption. If you believe that there is a "right" to birth control for women, that is classic sexual entitlement.

There are two realistic responces to this. The first which is a proper response, and a second, which is just as true but cuts more to the heart of the issue.

1) that is a Non Sequitur. A right does not imply an entitlement. Just like the right to the pursuit of happiness is not an entitlement for happiness.

2) You're an idiot.

I'm sorry about number 2, I don't know what I was thinking. It should say, "You're a sexist idiot."

My mistake.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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11/17/2014 11:35:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:21:10 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:18:38 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:04:51 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:41:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:32:01 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:14:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life and are entitled to birth control. If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.


Everyone deserves a fufilled sex life. Expecting it on specifically your terms, however, is where the problem begins. This is especially exacerbated when men would prefer not to wear condoms but women (at least by your set up) WANT some variety of birth control.


Okay. So, what is your solution to the "incels", that means men who are involuntarily celibate. Do they not deserve to have their needs met just for the crime of not being female or high status? That seems wrong to me.

Buy it, like any other bloke that is that hard up. I'm not female, and I am not high status. Growing up, I might not have had -ease- in finding sex, but it wasn't an impossible goal. Maybe they are involuntarily celebate because they expect sex on their own terms, when they want it, and with whom. If some one makes no effort in attracting the opposite sex, it stands to reason they won't get the opposite sex.


Okay. Then you favor legalizing prostitution (so do I). On the other hand, I look at ur profile and see u favor national health care.

That means you think people have a RIGHT to have their needs met. I'm sure you see sex as a need. After all, if sex is a privilege, why would women need the state to pay for their birth control?

You can see where I'm going with this. If you were consistent, you would also favor a state program that pays for sex for low status males. That is, unless you harbor some special animosity to this group that makes u think they don't have the same rights women do. That would be odd since you claim to be part of this group.

I favor a nationalized healthcare because in the event a catastrophic medical event happens to a person without it, currently, other tax payers pick up the dime. A nationalized healthcare infers the person suffering the catastrophic accident has been a tax payer, and is making use of what they have now payed for.


So. You don't believe in a "right" to health care?
I don't believe it should be denied. What does that qualify as?
I can see a LOT of benefit to making it as widely available, and affordable as possible. What would that qualify as?

I can't rationalize letting a dude die outside a hospital because he didn't have the cash on hand to pay for treatment, but I do feel that there is a basic care that should be provided by a hospital, financed by tax payers, the assumpt of which the dude in question is.




I feel the same way about birth control. Should some one be sexually active, and not have at least cheap methods more widely available, without a nationalized system, the birth of the inevitable child will again be on the tax payer. If the birthcontrol is subsidized, the cost is now a fraction of what it would cost the state/taxpayer compared to the other option.


You don't believe in a "right" to birth control?

I can find no reason to deny it. What would you qualify that as?
I can find a LOT of benefit in making it easily accessible, or affordable. What would you qualify that as?




Sex is not that hard to find. 'low status' males, I think is what you are giving the label to the 'socially inept'. Status is subject to change, station in life is subject to change, depending on amount of investment made. If such 'incels' are so hard up because they are 'low status', then change the low status part.



Try telling that to an unattractive, low skilled, socially awkward guy with 90 IQ points. Some people really can't change the whole low status thing.

Sounds to me like you dug his rut for him by stating its impossible for him to aquire sex. Do all of thise 'incels' match that description?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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11/17/2014 11:35:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:30:50 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
For women, it is much more equal. Pretty much any woman is guaranteed to find a guy who will bang them.

Yeah but that's what you're not understanding. Banging some loser would not be a good experience. It would be gross and horrible. You're confusing that with a fulfilling sex life which it isn't.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/17/2014 11:42:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:13:38 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:03:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Sex is not deserved. No one said disgusting pigs. Stop giving straw arguments and have the courage to critique real feminist arguments, and not your own words.




I agree sex is not deserved. But, if you don't think feminists frequently call men pigs, then it is you who is creating a strawman of your own ideology.



That literally makes no sense, at least none that I can work out.


And yes, a male or female who says they *deserve* sex (as if their opinion decides what their partners do with their bodies) is perpetuating an ideology of rape. That is literally one of the things that rapists say--that they are owed sex by their victims.

Deserve doesn't equal owed. Although, it is possible that somebody could owe somebody else sex. If you're in Amsterdam, and you pay a prostitute, she owes you sex.

Regardless, feeling like you deserve something like happiness or sex merely means you think you are worthy of such things. Feeling like you are owed these things means you think somebody else, a definable person or group, is depriving you of these needs.

I would critique both "deserving" and "being owed" in that case. Either way, the assumption is that one possesses such traits that the other ought to give sex. Who you are, what your characteristics are, have *nothing* to do with having sex. Having sex is about the other person's and one's own joint decision. It has nothing to do with one's own personal qualities etc. in other words, you don't get to decide how other people feel.

Feminists feel like women are all owed free birth control, for example.

Talking about the beliefs of feminism is like talking about the beliefs of white people or women. They are diverse, and you probably won't get a single answer.

Anyway, I believe they deserve free birth control, so that's fine.


Gross.


Female Sexual Entitlement:

All women, including low status women who can't afford birth control deserve a fulfilled sex life

Let me stop you there. I agree that being female does not mean you are owed sex, but who says anything about females deserving sex? You are arguing against the phantoms of feminist arguments of your own device. This is getting silly.



Again. You think feminism is some rational ideology. But, the reality is that feminism isn't reasonable. You can say I'm strawmanning all day long. I wish I was.

But, the sad reality is that feminism really is that dumb.

You done?

I realize that feminists don't say "women are owed sex". I never said it was an explicit feminist claim.

Instead, it is an IMPLICIT assumption that feminists use without acknowledging that they do.

The whole idea that women have a "right" to free birth control is based on the belief that women are owed a sex life. That is female sexual entitlement.


Wait wait wait. You are talking about effectively forbidding women from having sex with their consenting partners. Instead of allowing their partners to have sex, poor people must no have sex unless they want a baby.

That's one of the more absurd arguments I've ever heard. And to comparing that to saying they are entitled to sex is absolutely ridiculous. Look, it is one thing to say that you are not owed or entitled to sex by an unconcern ring partner. It is another to say that you are forbidden from sex because you are poor. Additionally, this means that every act of heterosexual sex by a poor person could result in a pregnancy, meaning that poor people are disproportionately affected by unwanted pregnancies and don't have sovereignty over their bodies.

There is a flipping big difference between saying you deserve for another partner to have sex with you, and saying that your partner and you ought to be allowed to safely have sex with each other if you both jointly decide that you want to.

Seriously, jimmy? Seriously?


and are entitled to birth control.

I do think they are entitled to birth control. That seems like a basic right in this day and age. People should be in control of their own bodies generally, but even more importantly pregnancies should be intentional as much as possible. Birth control helps prevent abortions too.

Forget you if you think that is the same as being entitled to get laid.



Ah but it is. Let's look at the feminist logic here:

1.) Sex is a basic human need

Many people choose not to have sex. It is not a basic human need.

2.) People are entitled to having their needs met
3.) Women cannot have sex safely without birth control
4.} Therefore, there is a right to birth control


I'm impressed that you've managed to defeat the argument you've made for yourself, yet again. I can't wait to see what you'll do with actual people's arguments!

Now, if that isn't sexual entitlement, I don't know what is.


If you think there is another way to get to there being a right to birth control, please show me. But, I can't find a single way to get there without having female sexual entitlement at the core.

I've hinted at it above. It's incredibly unfair for sex to be allowed only for rich people. Two consenting partners should be allowed to freely have safe sex. Refusing to do so is infringing on these persons sexual autonomy. It is also very dangerous, and realistically promotes unwanted pregnancies.

This is so far away from entitlement that I don't even know how to elaborate further.

The same kind of sexual entitlement feminists despise in men.

No, not even close. And women can be sexually entitled too, btw. Whereas one infringes on sexual autonomy, another protects it.


If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Thanks for the red herrings, and congratulations on winning an argument against yourself. Next time, though, I encourage you to fight a real opponent, instead of creating arguments for you to beat.


Again. I just showed that I'm the one arguing actual feminism.

No. I'm not sure why you think you did that. You just made up more arguments that you called feminist. Then you attacked them. I hate to sound like a broken record, but when you make up five arguments that doesn't make them more real than if you make up four.

You're trying to make it sound much more reasonable than it actually is.

I'm glad I'm sounding reasonable.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/17/2014 11:55:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:33:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:22:13 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).

It's an implicit assumption. If you believe that there is a "right" to birth control for women, that is classic sexual entitlement.

There are two realistic responces to this. The first which is a proper response, and a second, which is just as true but cuts more to the heart of the issue.

1) that is a Non Sequitur. A right does not imply an entitlement. Just like the right to the pursuit of happiness is not an entitlement for happiness.


Nicely succinct!

2) You're an idiot.

[*insert anti-ableist rant here*]
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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11/17/2014 11:55:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
High schools and colleges should probably cut 80% of math, most of history, and train men how to be good lovers. If you could be guaranteed an orgasm with every encounter, women would be much more into sex in general, marriages would last longer, and everyone would be happier.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:57:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:42:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:13:38 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:03:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/17/2014 5:54:37 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Male Sexual Entitlement:

Low status males who think they deserve sex are disgusting pigs who perpetuate rape culture.


Sex is not deserved. No one said disgusting pigs. Stop giving straw arguments and have the courage to critique real feminist arguments, and not your own words.




I agree sex is not deserved. But, if you don't think feminists frequently call men pigs, then it is you who is creating a strawman of your own ideology.



That literally makes no sense, at least none that I can work out.

It really does. You are trying to misrepresent your own ideology.



And yes, a male or female who says they *deserve* sex (as if their opinion decides what their partners do with their bodies) is perpetuating an ideology of rape. That is literally one of the things that rapists say--that they are owed sex by their victims.

Deserve doesn't equal owed. Although, it is possible that somebody could owe somebody else sex. If you're in Amsterdam, and you pay a prostitute, she owes you sex.

Regardless, feeling like you deserve something like happiness or sex merely means you think you are worthy of such things. Feeling like you are owed these things means you think somebody else, a definable person or group, is depriving you of these needs.

I would critique both "deserving" and "being owed" in that case. Either way, the assumption is that one possesses such traits that the other ought to give sex. Who you are, what your characteristics are, have *nothing* to do with having sex. Having sex is about the other person's and one's own joint decision. It has nothing to do with one's own personal qualities etc. in other words, you don't get to decide how other people feel.

I never said or assumed they did.


Feminists feel like women are all owed free birth control, for example.

Talking about the beliefs of feminism is like talking about the beliefs of white people or women. They are diverse, and you probably won't get a single answer.

Anyway, I believe they deserve free birth control, so that's fine.

There's a whole variety of stupid opinions among feminists. Got it.




You done?

Hardly


I realize that feminists don't say "women are owed sex". I never said it was an explicit feminist claim.

Instead, it is an IMPLICIT assumption that feminists use without acknowledging that they do.

The whole idea that women have a "right" to free birth control is based on the belief that women are owed a sex life. That is female sexual entitlement.


Wait wait wait. You are talking about effectively forbidding women from having sex with their consenting partners. Instead of allowing their partners to have sex, poor people must no have sex unless they want a baby.

Nobody's forbidding anything. I also don't believe we ought to give everybody free McDonalds. Am I forbidding them from buying McDonalds?

No. People can simply purchase their own birth control. If they can't afford it and you think they still deserve it, then I guess you think it is their "right" to have sex, no?


That's one of the more absurd arguments I've ever heard. And to comparing that to saying they are entitled to sex is absolutely ridiculous. Look, it is one thing to say that you are not owed or entitled to sex by an unconcern ring partner. It is another to say that you are forbidden from sex because you are poor. Additionally, this means that every act of heterosexual sex by a poor person could result in a pregnancy, meaning that poor people are disproportionately affected by unwanted pregnancies and don't have sovereignty over their bodies.

There is a flipping big difference between saying you deserve for another partner to have sex with you, and saying that your partner and you ought to be allowed to safely have sex with each other if you both jointly decide that you want to.

Seriously, jimmy? Seriously?

Okay. So, people don't have a right to a motorcycle. But, if someone is lucky enough to have one, they have a right to own a helmet. That makes total sense.






Ah but it is. Let's look at the feminist logic here:

1.) Sex is a basic human need

Many people choose not to have sex. It is not a basic human need.

I agree 100%. That's why I don't think people have a right to birth control.


2.) People are entitled to having their needs met
3.) Women cannot have sex safely without birth control
4.} Therefore, there is a right to birth control



I'm impressed that you've managed to defeat the argument you've made for yourself, yet again. I can't wait to see what you'll do with actual people's arguments!

Now, if that isn't sexual entitlement, I don't know what is.


If you think there is another way to get to there being a right to birth control, please show me. But, I can't find a single way to get there without having female sexual entitlement at the core.

I've hinted at it above. It's incredibly unfair for sex to be allowed only for rich people. Two consenting partners should be allowed to freely have safe sex. Refusing to do so is infringing on these persons sexual autonomy. It is also very dangerous, and realistically promotes unwanted pregnancies.

You say it is "incredibly unfair" for sex to be only allowed for the rich. Why is it fair for only attractive people or socially adjusted people to have sex?

And, nobody is infringing on autonomy. Just because the government doesn't fund your birth control doesn't mean you cant get it yourself.

If you can't afford it, hang with all the men (or women) who can't have sex for some different reason like social awkwardness or ugliness. The people who you think as being OK to deny sex altogether.


This is so far away from entitlement that I don't even know how to elaborate further.

Except, you know, it is literally textbook entitlement.


The same kind of sexual entitlement feminists despise in men.

No, not even close. And women can be sexually entitled too, btw. Whereas one infringes on sexual autonomy, another protects it.

Ok.



If you disagree, you are a right wing/ slut shaming / rape culture apologist.

Thanks for the red herrings, and congratulations on winning an argument against yourself. Next time, though, I encourage you to fight a real opponent, instead of creating arguments for you to beat.


Again. I just showed that I'm the one arguing actual feminism.

No. I'm not sure why you think you did that. You just made up more arguments that you called feminist. Then you attacked them. I hate to sound like a broken record, but when you make up five arguments that doesn't make them more real than if you make up four.

Except for the fact that I am actually representing feminism more accurately than you.


You're trying to make it sound much more reasonable than it actually is.

I'm glad I'm sounding reasonable.

You aren't. but, anything is reasonable compared to feminism
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/17/2014 11:58:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 11:33:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/17/2014 11:22:13 PM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:40:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm usually up to date on all stupid stereotypes and political slanders, but where do feminists say that woman deserve sex? Where do they attack men who don't put out? On a large scale (meaning a few no name feminist bloggers don't speak for the entire movement).

It's an implicit assumption. If you believe that there is a "right" to birth control for women, that is classic sexual entitlement.

There are two realistic responces to this. The first which is a proper response, and a second, which is just as true but cuts more to the heart of the issue.

1) that is a Non Sequitur. A right does not imply an entitlement. Just like the right to the pursuit of happiness is not an entitlement for happiness.

2) You're an idiot.

Okay. So, you don't think women are "entitled" to birth control, right?