Total Posts:36|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is Evangelical Christianity Akin to Fascism?

xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.
Nolite Timere
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2014 11:16:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

I watched the documentary several months ago. I ran across it several months ago at my public library. I agree, it is very disturbing. But religious indoctrination is occurring every day around the world. That is the very purpose of K-12 parochial schools of any denomination. Most are not as blatant as revealed in this documentary, but it is there.

One of my personal objections to even the more moderate forms of religious indoctrination is that it robs the child of the ability of critical thinking skills. I don't believe that is fair to the child.

In my personal opinion, home schooling can be just as bad if not worse. I have an evangelical Christian brother who home schooled his daughter under the auspices of his wife who is a highschool dropout. They didn't want her exposed to the corrupting influences of the public school system. My niece, now 20 years old, has only found employment as an aide in a seniors nursing home emptying bed pans. She is involved with an "older " man who the family suspects of physically abusing her. It is truly sad.

I also picked up a documentary DVD at the library on the life of Stephen Hawking. In it, his sister remembers family dinners when they were young. No topic was taboo. She said one of the favorite topics was religion, because it required no logic or proof.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2014 11:42:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:

Perhaps the most essential characteristic of fascism is a specific type of national mythology termed palingenetic ultranationalism. This is the myth which looks back to a golden age, sees the present situation as decayed and debauched, and seeks to revolutionize society in a return to glory. The other facets of fascism, such as the cult of personality, the authoritarianism, and the scapegoating, are all symptoms of this central ideology. Because the dream is an unobtainable myth, fascist movements always become more and more totalitarian until the entire system collapses, and what many see as the most abhorrent aspects of fascisms are the means which are taken to hold the enterprise together.

It is through this lens which I view these evangelical groups, and what I see is troubling. The leitmotif of the various interconnected movements is the vision of American as a fallen nation which must be redeemed; this is quintessential fascist ideology. I see charismatic leaders rising, I see scapegoating when it comes to gays, Catholics, and atheists, and the same authoritarian bent which you observed. I've also noticed widespread revisionist history (general whitewashing, attempts to write the separation of church and state off as a myth, the 'Under God' nonsense, the 'Christian Nation' nonsense.)

All in all, a subset of Christians in America have manufactured a fantastical past in which their faith ruled supreme over the land, guiding it to prosperity and glory, and have set out on a quest of restoration. I've even seen some Catholics buy into such ideology, even though they've been historically targeted as a symptom of decay which must be eliminated. The movement may have some localized power, but I don't see it succeeding on a widespread level anytime soon, so long as mainstream Christianity keeps it at arm's length. But I would worry if we ever reach the levels of destitution and hopeless unrest which tend to foment such radicalism.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 11:09:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This was a fairly insightful post.

I think that there are a number of methodological similarities between evangelical or fundamentalist Christians, and some fascist regimes of the 20th century. The greatest tragedy here is the fact that Christianity has, for those people, become as political as it has become anti-intellectual -which puts religion diametrically at odds with mainstream society. Positioning the church (where "the church" refers to the people who actually subscribe to evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, and not the actual buildings that people worship in) at odds with the rest of society is a pretty stupid thing to do, but the fact that the church "is" at odds with modern society is pretty meaningful in terms of what it says about the church's (and religion's generally) place in our culture.

Basically, the church is on the defensive and it's conscious of its being on the defensive. There is this perception that you can't both believe in modern science and believe in God (which is dumb, because science can't tell us about God), and there are two rivaling camps on that issue: the new atheists who believe that science can at least justify weak atheism (which is nonsense), and the fundamentalists who reject modern science because they have "bought in" to the new atheist position that science can justify at least weak atheism. So, weak atheism has defined itself against Christianity (or religion, generally), and then fundamentalist Christianity defined itself against weak atheism.

The reason that's totally stupid is because it makes religion (something not of man, or at least theoretically "over and above" man) subservient to science (something of man), in an effort to reclaim its legitimacy. The searing irony of that in its effort to reestablish its legitimacy, religion in that way becomes subservient to science and then in that way subservient to man. Religion, is no more than "on par" with man in that regime, and that means that the new atheists of this world have already "won" the battle between science and religion because if religion is no more than some fiction of the human mind there is no reason to buy into it at all. Religion has, in that way, been "debased" and it's not going to get its status back.

That's very sad, because religion is what holds the fabric of our society together. Even if people don't practice a religion, the basic values that most people hold come from religion. Charity, empathy, justice, morality, etc. These are all "religious," and they were religious before they were ever secular -but the problem is that the church now isn't acting very charitable, empathetic, just or moral. Instead, the church has gone on this zealously political tirade about how government trying to facilitate access to health care and taking measures to ameliorate poverty are not only unacceptable but wrong, how gay people will burn in hell, how birth control is immoral, etc. All of those things are fundamentally and visibly stupid.

But the fact that they're fundamentally and visibly stupid is what makes them (all the stuff I just talked about) dangerous to the church. People who are not Christians see people who call themselves Christians talking about how god hates gay people, or how Obama is the devil, or any number of other monumentally idiotic things that poor, angry, ignorant white people have claimed comes from "the bible" and they make certain assessments of Christianity "as a faith" on that basis.

Sure, it's not fair to judge an entire faith on the basis of the faith, but people do. Fundamentalists turn rational people away from Christianity. When the church starts talking about politicized dogma, they stop talking about helping the needy, giving money to the poor, etc. and that change is the "death knell" to the Church's legitimacy in our culture. The irony, of course, is that the only reason that the church became so politically defensive is because it felt "under attack" in the first place.
Tsar of DDO
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 12:56:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:42:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:

Perhaps the most essential characteristic of fascism is a specific type of national mythology termed palingenetic ultranationalism. This is the myth which looks back to a golden age, sees the present situation as decayed and debauched, and seeks to revolutionize society in a return to glory. The other facets of fascism, such as the cult of personality, the authoritarianism, and the scapegoating, are all symptoms of this central ideology. Because the dream is an unobtainable myth, fascist movements always become more and more totalitarian until the entire system collapses, and what many see as the most abhorrent aspects of fascisms are the means which are taken to hold the enterprise together.

It is through this lens which I view these evangelical groups, and what I see is troubling. The leitmotif of the various interconnected movements is the vision of American as a fallen nation which must be redeemed; this is quintessential fascist ideology. I see charismatic leaders rising, I see scapegoating when it comes to gays, Catholics, and atheists, and the same authoritarian bent which you observed. I've also noticed widespread revisionist history (general whitewashing, attempts to write the separation of church and state off as a myth, the 'Under God' nonsense, the 'Christian Nation' nonsense.)

All in all, a subset of Christians in America have manufactured a fantastical past in which their faith ruled supreme over the land, guiding it to prosperity and glory, and have set out on a quest of restoration. I've even seen some Catholics buy into such ideology, even though they've been historically targeted as a symptom of decay which must be eliminated. The movement may have some localized power, but I don't see it succeeding on a widespread level anytime soon, so long as mainstream Christianity keeps it at arm's length. But I would worry if we ever reach the levels of destitution and hopeless unrest which tend to foment such radicalism.

That was a very well thought out and well written post. Thank you for sharing.
Nolite Timere
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 1:18:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

Oh gosh, the infamous Jesus Camp movie...
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 2:51:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 1:18:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

Oh gosh, the infamous Jesus Camp movie...

It was very interesting. What is your opinion?
Nolite Timere
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2014 11:09:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.
One lesson that anyone should glean from after watching this movie is: never let random people do a documentary on you or your organization.

I know it's common to use sensationalistic titles for one's presentation, but this camp is not a reflection of Evangelical Christianity. It is just one small group, out of many we will never hear of (church youth groups, etc.), that got popular due to an expose. Yes, some of their tactics can be considered questionable. However, we also have to take into consideration those who produced this movie (who I think may have been Christians). It's common practice when attempting to place something in a negative light in a filmed/videotaped documentary to employ certain audio-visual effects to make the subject appear more dark. Spooky music, lighting and camera angles that give a distorted impression, etc. Again, I'm not implying that the camp's actions are not questionable, but the movie was presented using a "Children Of The Corn" atmosphere that probably lends itself to a certain amount of exaggeration.

But in discussing this movie we see the usual references to Christian, Evangelical Christian, Fundamentalist Christian, religious indoctrination that are loosely and carelessly tossed out without any logic and reasoning.

Yes, there is that possibility of a the U.S. becoming a religious State, removing various rights we now enjoy. It's happened in history (European theocratic history), so we can't claim it cannot happen here. However, it is just as equally possible for the U.S. to become an anti-theistic, or just anti-Christian/anti-Evangelical Christian society. We also have history of this to prove that as well. Yes, just as there is religious indoctrination, there is also atheistic indoctrination. It is very possible, that one day in the U.S., it could be illegal to profess belief in God, or be a Christian, just as it's possible that one day belief in God/being a Christian could be made a law. And one way this could happen is the loose generalizations, and careless allegations about religion and/or Christianity/Evangelical Christianity.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2014 11:33:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

I've been seeing that on netflix for awhile now. Is it worth watching?
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2014 12:08:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sieg Heil der Fuhrer George Bush!
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2014 12:11:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/25/2014 11:33:51 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

I've been seeing that on netflix for awhile now. Is it worth watching?

It was pretty interesting. If it sounds interesting to you then I would say it is worth watching.
Nolite Timere
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2014 12:18:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/25/2014 12:11:20 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 12/25/2014 11:33:51 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

I've been seeing that on netflix for awhile now. Is it worth watching?

It was pretty interesting. If it sounds interesting to you then I would say it is worth watching.

Okay, I had it on my list of videos to watch but every-time I'd come to it I'd always be like, "Hmm, lets see if there isn't anything else I could watch instead." I'll definitely check it out now though.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 3:03:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The short answer (minus political force) is yes. I love the movie Jesus Camp and just wanted to comment that everyone should watch it.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 3:08:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 11:09:19 AM, YYW wrote:
That's very sad, because religion is what holds the fabric of our society together. Even if people don't practice a religion, the basic values that most people hold come from religion. Charity, empathy, justice, morality, etc. These are all "religious," and they were religious before they were ever secular -but the problem is that the church now isn't acting very charitable, empathetic, just or moral.

This is entirely unfounded. Religion is absolutely not what holds the fabric of our society together as evidenced by a growing number of non-religious regions and parts of the world. Every day I'm grateful to live in NYC where I'm not surrounded by the bible thumping rednecks I've encountered in my travels. It's completely untrue that morality (and concepts like charity and empathy) necessarily derives from religion. In fact science has already proven that empathy and justice are a natural part of evolution with practical application for survival and cooperation. To say all of those qualities are religious in nature is absolutely inaccurate, especially since they were applied and recognized by humanity before the fruition of theism in general let alone any kind of religion. Most religions do advocate and support those concepts which is great (whether or not they actually apply them non-hypocritically is another story) but they are definitely not limited to or determined by a particular faith or ideology.
President of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 8:52:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 3:08:34 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/20/2014 11:09:19 AM, YYW wrote:
That's very sad, because religion is what holds the fabric of our society together. Even if people don't practice a religion, the basic values that most people hold come from religion. Charity, empathy, justice, morality, etc. These are all "religious," and they were religious before they were ever secular -but the problem is that the church now isn't acting very charitable, empathetic, just or moral.

This is entirely unfounded.

This should be interesting...

Religion is absolutely not what holds the fabric of our society together as evidenced by a growing number of non-religious regions and parts of the world.

The values I was talking about come from religion, and they hold society together. Some people who are not religious hold those values too; meaning that being religious isn't necessary to be moral -but the morality was religious before it was secular. So... you're not really addressing a claim I made... but whatever.

Every day I'm grateful to live in NYC where I'm not surrounded by the bible thumping rednecks I've encountered in my travels.

Yeah, ok. I mean... that's hard to disagree with.

It's completely untrue that morality (and concepts like charity and empathy) necessarily derives from religion.

Dani, the entirety of Western moral thought came from Christianity. Take a course on the history of moral philosophy... like any course at all.

In fact science has already proven that empathy and justice are a natural part of evolution with practical application for survival and cooperation.

Living within a set of prescribed rules may have an evolutionary basis because a normative social contract creates the conditions where people can operate more productively, but that does not mean that empathy and justice are of evolutionary origin and there is literally no scientist on earth that would make that claim. Science is about positive claims, not normative ones -and you're making a normative claim there.

To say all of those qualities are religious in nature is absolutely inaccurate, especially since they were applied and recognized by humanity before the fruition of theism in general let alone any kind of religion.

That's not true either.

Most religions do advocate and support those concepts which is great (whether or not they actually apply them non-hypocritically is another story) but they are definitely not limited to or determined by a particular faith or ideology.

I mean... you can repeat yourself, but that's not going to make you correct.
Tsar of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:11:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 8:52:00 AM, YYW wrote:
The values I was talking about come from religion, and they hold society together. Some people who are not religious hold those values too; meaning that being religious isn't necessary to be moral -but the morality was religious before it was secular. So... you're not really addressing a claim I made... but whatever.

I've already explained why this is wrong.

Dani, the entirety of Western moral thought came from Christianity. Take a course on the history of moral philosophy... like any course at all.

It's so obvious that you're gay because you say bratty things like a girl. Was this comment really necessary? No.

Don't talk down to me a in a a condescending manner as if you know anything whatsoever about what courses I've taken. Philosophy was one of my majors and I can assure you that I've read dozens of books and taken at least 6 courses (as per the requirement) on the concept of Ethics in philosophy alone. It's entirely not true that all of Western thought comes from Christianity. Not only did concepts of morality including generosity, cooperation, notions of not stealing, etc. develop during the cave men days as natural instinct and primitive origins of human nature (and morality), but um Christianity stems from Judaism so at the very least you're already wrong on that basis alone. Religion existed LONGGGGGGGG before Christianity. Hinduism is like 4,000 years older than Christianity and they speak PLENTY about morality. Maybe you should take a history class...

Living within a set of prescribed rules may have an evolutionary basis because a normative social contract creates the conditions where people can operate more productively, but that does not mean that empathy and justice are of evolutionary origin

lol yes it does

and there is literally no scientist on earth that would make that claim.

lol first of all learn how to use the word "literally" correctly. You literally have no idea that this is true and completely made this up.

Science is about positive claims, not normative ones -and you're making a normative claim there.

No I'm not arguing for what "ought" to be, I'm saying that the basis of morality has scientific and philosophical origins outside of religion and are not specifically derived from religion. That is not advocating a particular course of action.

That's not true either.

Are you serious? You don't think that people had basic moral concepts before Jesus? Holy sh!t that's ignorant.

I mean... you can repeat yourself, but that's not going to make you correct.

I mean, you can continuously make bare assertions in a snotty tone but that doesn't make you any less ignorant.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:26:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't feel like having a back and forth argument in the forums. It's a waste of my time. I'll challenge you to a debate about whether or not morality necessarily stems form religion and/or Christianity (but hopefully you don't accept the latter, cuz if you honestly could say with a straight face that Christianity is the origin of Western thought... completely ignoring the ancient Greeks as just one example and the PRIMARY influence of Western thought lol not Christianity!!!) then I simply cannot take you seriously, YYW as a remotely credible intellectual being who has passed the 6th grade which is when I'm pretty sure I started learning about ancient Greece.
President of DDO
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:26:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

So will you cheer when the Christians you do not like are arrested?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:29:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:54:22 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I watched a documentary on Netflix called Jesus Camp. It had no narration and as far as I am aware, took no blatantly biased position on evangelical Christianity. The documentary followed multiple evangelical Christian families, and a camp led by evangelical counselors. What was particularly interesting about the documentary is that it specifically followed the children: how they acted, reacted, received and believed in the message they were being taught.

To start, I am a very devout Catholic. Many of the messages the evangelicals were preaching were not in of themselves bad. For example, they preached pro-life messages, God as the center of one's life, accomplishing great works through God, etc. What was unsettling were the methods in which parents and counselors indoctrinated kids with these messages.

Here is a list of similarities I found between general fascist principles and the methods of indoctrination that evangelical leaders were using.
1. Inspires blind devotion to authoritative power. The relationship of parent to child or counselor to child was not one of open speech. It was a slave/master relationship, where the master is right and the slave is ignorant and in need of learning. Overall I found the relationship very authoritative. Parents tended to control every aspect of their children's lives. They are not allowed to be taught different opinions, not allowed to read certain books (Harry Potter), watch certain Tv shows, etc.
2. No freedom of speech (There is one right opinion). Any opinion that could be considered even remotely contrary to Biblical teaching is forbidden. You cannot be a Christian if you do not hold believe in every single teaching of the Bible. Any opinion contrary to Biblical teaching is to be dismissed as a temptation of Satan.
3. Indoctrinate children with heavily biased beliefs. Interviews with the head counselor of the camp showed that they were purposefully, and with absolute intent teaching children at a young age to accept Christ as their savior. They were to do this before the sinfulness of society would brainwash them and take them away from God. More than once the head counselor stated that she wanted to inspire a passion as great as islamic children you were ready to commit terrorist acts for their beliefs. She stated that she wanted to create an army of Christian soldiers, and that the only way to do this was to get these evangelical Christian messages in their heads as soon as possible.
4. May alter or all together reject evidence or reason if doing so supports the state/evangelical belief. Evolution is rejected on the grounds that the Bible teaches creationism. There was no argument against evolution besides "that is just absurd." More than once parents taught their children that science does not prove anything.
5. Uses terror to safeguard authority . Catholicism does not focus on Hell, nor does it use such a notion to inspire devotion to God or as a way to convert others to Christianity. Catholicism has always focused on forgiveness and mercy: that anyone regardless of the sins they have committed could become a saint. This was not something I saw among the evangelicals in the documentary. Evangelicals focused heavily on the sinful natures of humans, how guilty we should feel over our sins, how evil society is, etc. More than once evangelicals talked about how they are going to Heaven or asked "Do you know where you are going after you die?"

In conclusion, although I do not disagree directly with the Christian messages made by the not-so-extreme evangelicals, the methods in which evangelicals convey Christian methods are disturbing, and I think that these methods are what ostracize much of the Christian community from modern society.

Thank you for reading.

The Catholics were in bed with Hitler. The Catholics pretended to be suffering under Hitler when many of their uncompromising priests resisted Hitler and paid the price facism requires of resisters. The Pope and Vatican were in allegiance with Hitler intending to be the supreme rulers of religion in a world controlled by the facist Nazi's and facist Japan.

You don't know much about facism, do you?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:31:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 11:09:19 AM, YYW wrote:
This was a fairly insightful post.

I think that there are a number of methodological similarities between evangelical or fundamentalist Christians, and some fascist regimes of the 20th century. The greatest tragedy here is the fact that Christianity has, for those people, become as political as it has become anti-intellectual -which puts religion diametrically at odds with mainstream society. Positioning the church (where "the church" refers to the people who actually subscribe to evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, and not the actual buildings that people worship in) at odds with the rest of society is a pretty stupid thing to do, but the fact that the church "is" at odds with modern society is pretty meaningful in terms of what it says about the church's (and religion's generally) place in our culture.

Basically, the church is on the defensive and it's conscious of its being on the defensive. There is this perception that you can't both believe in modern science and believe in God (which is dumb, because science can't tell us about God), and there are two rivaling camps on that issue: the new atheists who believe that science can at least justify weak atheism (which is nonsense), and the fundamentalists who reject modern science because they have "bought in" to the new atheist position that science can justify at least weak atheism. So, weak atheism has defined itself against Christianity (or religion, generally), and then fundamentalist Christianity defined itself against weak atheism.

The reason that's totally stupid is because it makes religion (something not of man, or at least theoretically "over and above" man) subservient to science (something of man), in an effort to reclaim its legitimacy. The searing irony of that in its effort to reestablish its legitimacy, religion in that way becomes subservient to science and then in that way subservient to man. Religion, is no more than "on par" with man in that regime, and that means that the new atheists of this world have already "won" the battle between science and religion because if religion is no more than some fiction of the human mind there is no reason to buy into it at all. Religion has, in that way, been "debased" and it's not going to get its status back.

That's very sad, because religion is what holds the fabric of our society together. Even if people don't practice a religion, the basic values that most people hold come from religion. Charity, empathy, justice, morality, etc. These are all "religious," and they were religious before they were ever secular -but the problem is that the church now isn't acting very charitable, empathetic, just or moral. Instead, the church has gone on this zealously political tirade about how government trying to facilitate access to health care and taking measures to ameliorate poverty are not only unacceptable but wrong, how gay people will burn in hell, how birth control is immoral, etc. All of those things are fundamentally and visibly stupid.

But the fact that they're fundamentally and visibly stupid is what makes them (all the stuff I just talked about) dangerous to the church. People who are not Christians see people who call themselves Christians talking about how god hates gay people, or how Obama is the devil, or any number of other monumentally idiotic things that poor, angry, ignorant white people have claimed comes from "the bible" and they make certain assessments of Christianity "as a faith" on that basis.

Sure, it's not fair to judge an entire faith on the basis of the faith, but people do. Fundamentalists turn rational people away from Christianity. When the church starts talking about politicized dogma, they stop talking about helping the needy, giving money to the poor, etc. and that change is the "death knell" to the Church's legitimacy in our culture. The irony, of course, is that the only reason that the church became so politically defensive is because it felt "under attack" in the first place.

Well I guess you must be happy about the progressive criminalization of Christianity that is taking place in America.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:35:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:11:23 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/3/2015 8:52:00 AM, YYW wrote:
The values I was talking about come from religion, and they hold society together. Some people who are not religious hold those values too; meaning that being religious isn't necessary to be moral -but the morality was religious before it was secular. So... you're not really addressing a claim I made... but whatever.

I've already explained why this is wrong.

Actually you didn't. You repeated the same basic idea in three or four different ways, without any evidence at all to substantiate your claim.

Dani, the entirety of Western moral thought came from Christianity. Take a course on the history of moral philosophy... like any course at all.

It's so obvious that you're gay because you say bratty things like a girl. Was this comment really necessary? No.

Gee... stereotype much? lol but it doesn't matter. The history of Western moral thought (and most of Western political thought) begins in Christian theology. Whether you chose to accept historical fact or not is your prerogative, though.

And we can compare resumes as much as you like, but I can promise you that it's not going to help you advance your argument. What might advance your argument is actual evidence that somehow unpinned the actual history of Western moral thought... but you're going to be hard pressed to find that.

I mean, if you go back far enough, it's Aristotle, but the point remains....

Here's a brief summary of this sort of thing...

http://www3.nd.edu...

Maybe you read it. Maybe not.. but I don't feel like arguing with you about something this basic.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:41:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:31:51 AM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
Well I guess you must be happy about the progressive criminalization of Christianity that is taking place in America.

You have a unique talent for saying very stupid things. Christianity is not being "criminalized" and the siege mentality implicit in the statement you just made pretty much marks the beginning of the end for people who think like you. Now that, I'm happy about.

Christianity is not under attack from anyone other than right wing fundamentalists, who, by their choices and actions, are destroying Christendom from the inside out. It's the people who protest gay marriage because their redneck theology so compels them, or who protest abortion clinics for the same reason that is destroying the Church from the inside out.

Basically, the reason that people like Danielle hate religion is because of people like you. I know you don't understand that what you're doing is destroying the church, for a number of reasons, but you're still setting the church on a train headed off a cliff.

So, make no mistake, while Christianity is not "under attack" from the outside, it is nevertheless very much at a point in time where if something doesn't change fast the Church's relevance in society will dissipate -and it will be the fault of all those who think like you.
Tsar of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:44:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:35:40 AM, YYW wrote:
I don't feel like arguing with you about something this basic.

Please accept my debate challenge cuz I hate the forums.

I'm looking forward to you schooling me on the "basic facts" of history.

http://www.debate.org...
President of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:49:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:44:08 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/3/2015 10:35:40 AM, YYW wrote:
I don't feel like arguing with you about something this basic.

Please accept my debate challenge cuz I hate the forums.

I'm looking forward to you schooling me on the "basic facts" of history.


http://www.debate.org...

Yeah, the reason you don't want to debate it in the forums is because it would give me unlimited character space to explain to you why you're wrong...

The problem is that, as I said, I don't really feel like arguing with you over something this basic... which should have been pretty clear by the fact that it's literally what I said in the last post I made.

I gave you something to read, and that's it. You said "Nuh uh!" in about four different ways, and now you're taking that "huh uh!" to a slightly escalated level.

lol

whatever
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:52:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:44:08 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/3/2015 10:35:40 AM, YYW wrote:
I don't feel like arguing with you about something this basic.

Please accept my debate challenge cuz I hate the forums.

I'm looking forward to you schooling me on the "basic facts" of history.


http://www.debate.org...

In the event that my last post, before you challenged me to a debate (lol) here is what I said:

Gee... stereotype much? lol but it doesn't matter. The history of Western moral thought (and most of Western political thought) begins in Christian theology. Whether you chose to accept historical fact or not is your prerogative, though.

And we can compare resumes as much as you like, but I can promise you that it's not going to help you advance your argument. What might advance your argument is actual evidence that somehow unpinned the actual history of Western moral thought... but you're going to be hard pressed to find that.

Anyway, debate someone else. Whether you chose to accept that the earth revolves around the sun or not isn't really going to change the fact that the earth, in fact, revolves around the sun.
Tsar of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:53:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
lmfao YYW has declined my debate challenge.

Um... he is not arguing a historical fact in any way whatsoever which is why he's spewing complete and utter blatant nonsense.

If his position was such a solid fact, he wouldn't be a pansy and backing out of proving me wrong so easily.

Nobody in their right mind will accept this debate challenge because it's complete BS.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:55:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:52:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Anyway, debate someone else. Whether you chose to accept that the earth revolves around the sun or not isn't really going to change the fact that the earth, in fact, revolves around the sun.

You look like a petulant child whining about how you're right but not having the balls to prove me wrong if it's allegedly so easy. Nobody is going to accept the challenge because it's a stupid position that is so glaringly wrong. I choose to accept that the earth revolves around the sun because it's a fact. I don't choose to accept your position because it's ridiculous and you know it, which is why you're relying on straw mans and other embarrassing comments about how I allegedly "won't accept facts" when the reality is you don't have the balls to defend your alleged "facts" because they're completely fabricated.
President of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:59:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:55:45 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/3/2015 10:52:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Anyway, debate someone else. Whether you chose to accept that the earth revolves around the sun or not isn't really going to change the fact that the earth, in fact, revolves around the sun.

You look like a petulant child whining about how you're right but not having the balls to prove me wrong if it's allegedly so easy.

Wow Dani... please read what you post before you post it. At no point in time did I say that it would be easy to teach you the history of western moral thought. The reason I declined the challenge is because it is COMPLICATED and HARD but grasping the basic fact is INCREDIBLY SIMPLE.

And this is literally why I don't take you seriously.... someone says something that you don't know or understand, and then you challenge them to debate it knowing that they're going to decline only so that you can be like "fvck you pu$$y @ss b!tch" later on.

Call me a petulant child to whatever extent you like... you're still going to be wrong.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 10:59:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:53:28 AM, Danielle wrote:
lmfao YYW has declined my debate challenge.

Um... he is not arguing a historical fact in any way whatsoever which is why he's spewing complete and utter blatant nonsense.

If his position was such a solid fact, he wouldn't be a pansy and backing out of proving me wrong so easily.

Nobody in their right mind will accept this debate challenge because it's complete BS.

Oh my what a compelling argument you have made there...

YYW: [facts]
Dani: But... but... nuh uh!
YYW: *shakes head*
Dani: Wanna fight about it?
YYW: Not really...
Dani: Of course you don't... pu$$y.
YYW: This is why I don't take you seriously...
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2015 11:03:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 10:59:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 1/3/2015 10:53:28 AM, Danielle wrote:
lmfao YYW has declined my debate challenge.

Um... he is not arguing a historical fact in any way whatsoever which is why he's spewing complete and utter blatant nonsense.

If his position was such a solid fact, he wouldn't be a pansy and backing out of proving me wrong so easily.

Nobody in their right mind will accept this debate challenge because it's complete BS.

Oh my what a compelling argument you have made there...

YYW: [facts]
Dani: But... but... nuh uh!
YYW: *shakes head*
Dani: Wanna fight about it?
YYW: Not really...
Dani: Of course you don't... pu$$y.
YYW: This is why I don't take you seriously...

https://www.youtube.com...

Although really... this is more representative of what Dani said:

YYW: [facts]
Dani: But... but... nuh uh!
YYW: *shakes head* [makes sassy comment]
Dani: This is why you're so obviously gay... making sassy comments. Fvck you, btw. Wanna fight about it?
YYW: Not really... I have better things to do with my time.
Dani: Of course you don't... pu$$y.
YYW: This is why I don't take you seriously...
Dani: You don't take me seriously? [rage mode]
YYW: *crickets*
Tsar of DDO