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Accusers and the Accused

DarthVitiosus
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12/22/2014 6:54:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Should we tread more carefully on the accused? If someone is falsely accused and proven not guilty, they may have to move to another town because even the though of an alleged rape.. Good thing for Mr. Nungresser, his alleged rape is only well known on the campus. At least he won't have to worry about moving far away from his real home.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 6:54:01 AM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Should we tread more carefully on the accused? If someone is falsely accused and proven not guilty, they may have to move to another town because even the though of an alleged rape.. Good thing for Mr. Nungresser, his alleged rape is only well known on the campus. At least he won't have to worry about moving far away from his real home.

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/22/2014 8:50:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/22/2014 6:54:01 AM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Should we tread more carefully on the accused? If someone is falsely accused and proven not guilty, they may have to move to another town because even the though of an alleged rape.. Good thing for Mr. Nungresser, his alleged rape is only well known on the campus. At least he won't have to worry about moving far away from his real home.

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.

And if his accusers should turn out to be lying, they should receive the same sentence that he would've received had he been found guilty of raping them, because the damage to his reputation was so massive that he might as well have been raped.
That is, if they're lying, they should receive life in prison.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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12/22/2014 8:58:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 8:50:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/22/2014 6:54:01 AM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Should we tread more carefully on the accused? If someone is falsely accused and proven not guilty, they may have to move to another town because even the though of an alleged rape.. Good thing for Mr. Nungresser, his alleged rape is only well known on the campus. At least he won't have to worry about moving far away from his real home.

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.

And if his accusers should turn out to be lying, they should receive the same sentence that he would've received had he been found guilty of raping them, because the damage to his reputation was so massive that he might as well have been raped.
That is, if they're lying, they should receive life in prison.

He may or may not have raped them, but the fact that they do not know at this point and everyone automatically rallied around the accusers anyway shows that our culture has a Pro-Feminist, Misandrist bias.
If I was falsely accused of rape by them, well, let's just say that what I'd do to them in revenge would be much worse than had I actually raped them.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/22/2014 11:52:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 6:54:01 AM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com...

Should we tread more carefully on the accused? If someone is falsely accused and proven not guilty, they may have to move to another town because even the though of an alleged rape.. Good thing for Mr. Nungresser, his alleged rape is only well known on the campus. At least he won't have to worry about moving far away from his real home.

Yeah, that sucks for him.
What should we do?

Not responsible =/= did not rape
Perhaps he was too drunk to know what he was doing, as she consented, but didn't consent because she was too drunk to consent.
In fact:
Not guilty =/= innocent
I'm pretty sure there are tons of people that think OJ Simpson killed his wife.

If this were to harm him in other ways, then it's a tort.
But, she believes she was raped by him. Other believe her. Is she, and they, not allowed to express their scorn?

Why is this any different that the guy at the office party who got too drunk and made a fool of himself, and became a pariah?
Conversely, if people think that she is going to far, are they not allowed to shun her, too?
My work here is, finally, done.
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,355
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12/22/2014 12:56:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Outside of a forced marriage or kidnapping, it just seems very hard to believe that a person would over and over again put themselves in a situation where they could expect this kind of behavior to occur."

Actually.. not necessarily... a lot of people stay with abusive partners ... but this story is a bit iffy
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DarthVitiosus
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12/22/2014 3:22:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.

A new version of the Code of Hammurabi?

"If any one "point the finger" at a sister of a god or the wife of any one, and can not prove it, this man shall be taken before the judges and his brow shall be marked."
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
DarthVitiosus
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12/22/2014 3:36:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:52:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If this were to harm him in other ways, then it's a tort.
Tort law only covers libel and slander. I was referring to the alleged association to the crime especially when one has been proven not guilty. Even if not proven guilty, there remains problems. This letter in the Guardian by a poor novice will explain it better:

http://www.theguardian.com...
But, she believes she was raped by him. Other believe her. Is she, and they, not allowed to express their scorn?

Why is this any different that the guy at the office party who got too drunk and made a fool of himself, and became a pariah?
He won't be shunned from society for his actions or the alleged actions he took.
Conversely, if people think that she is going to far, are they not allowed to shun her, too?

Usually the woman doesn't get in trouble because they are not seen as the aggressor.
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
Vox_Veritas
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12/22/2014 4:05:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 3:22:54 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.

A new version of the Code of Hammurabi?

"If any one "point the finger" at a sister of a god or the wife of any one, and can not prove it, this man shall be taken before the judges and his brow shall be marked."

I don't get what you mean.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/22/2014 6:20:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Fool: We should automatically believe.
<(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
DarthVitiosus
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12/22/2014 7:19:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:05:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/22/2014 3:22:54 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 12/22/2014 8:45:43 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

They should just do some tests to determine whether or not they were actually raped. If he did rape them, then he should go to jail. If he did not rape them, then his accusers should go to jail.

A new version of the Code of Hammurabi?

"If any one "point the finger" at a sister of a god or the wife of any one, and can not prove it, this man shall be taken before the judges and his brow shall be marked."

I don't get what you mean.

You want someone punished for slandering someone else who falsely accused them of rape? Is that not correct?
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
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#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
Khaos_Mage
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12/23/2014 10:01:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 3:36:01 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:52:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If this were to harm him in other ways, then it's a tort.
Tort law only covers libel and slander. I was referring to the alleged association to the crime especially when one has been proven not guilty.
And if you can prove there are damages (like not being hired or loss of business), then it is slander, I'd think.
I'm not so sure, though. Imagine I killed someone, and I confessed to the police, but the confession was thrown out due to legal reasons. I am acquitted, but people no damn well that I did, in fact, kill that person. Is it slander if it is true?

Even if not proven guilty, there remains problems. This letter in the Guardian by a poor novice will explain it better:
Again, charges not dropped =/= not guilty =/= innocent
As far as this letter goes, I don't know what to make of it. Did she say she was raped, or did her friend say this? Is the issue rape or is it statutory rape?
Me having sex with a 14 year old, even if it is their idea and they are sober, is still rape.
Depending where you are, there is laws regarding when you can consent based on age alone. Was this the case? The girl was 13 after all.

http://www.theguardian.com...

But, she believes she was raped by him. Other believe her. Is she, and they, not allowed to express their scorn?

Why is this any different that the guy at the office party who got too drunk and made a fool of himself, and became a pariah?
He won't be shunned from society for his actions or the alleged actions he took.
He might if others find out about it.
But, yes, he's not likely to be.
Conversely, if people think that she is going to far, are they not allowed to shun her, too?

Usually the woman doesn't get in trouble because they are not seen as the aggressor.
While this is true, the reason they don't get in trouble is because there has to be proof she lied. Not prosecuting, being found not guilty, or even campus police saying "not responsible" (again, not sure what the hell that is), is not proof that she filed a false police report.
My work here is, finally, done.
DarthVitiosus
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12/23/2014 2:09:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/23/2014 10:01:36 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
And if you can prove there are damages (like not being hired or loss of business), then it is slander, I'd think.
I'm not so sure, though. Imagine I killed someone, and I confessed to the police, but the confession was thrown out due to legal reasons. I am acquitted, but people no damn well that I did, in fact, kill that person. Is it slander if it is true?
Yes, it would be slander. But that doesn't matter that much if you don't want to press charges. You are not a convicted killer, therefore it is slander. If you want to press charges that is your decision.
Again, charges not dropped =/= not guilty =/= innocent
As far as this letter goes, I don't know what to make of it. Did she say she was raped, or did her friend say this? Is the issue rape or is it statutory rape?
The girl allegedly raped was stating that the boy had raped her. I would assume statutory rape but I don't know the laws where he lived. He might not even be American. Either way, it would be statutory rape since both were minors.
Me having sex with a 14 year old, even if it is their idea and they are sober, is still rape.
Are you 15?
Depending where you are, there is laws regarding when you can consent based on age alone. Was this the case? The girl was 13 after all.
In that case both were minors, the alleged rapist was 15 and the girl was 13. I am not sure how this would work since both are minors. It would vary according to local laws I would assume.
While this is true, the reason they don't get in trouble is because there has to be proof she lied. Not prosecuting, being found not guilty, or even campus police saying "not responsible" (again, not sure what the hell that is), is not proof that she filed a false police report.
Fair enough, I knew why they didn't get in trouble. The question is, should they be able to get in trouble?
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
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#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
Khaos_Mage
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12/23/2014 2:22:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/23/2014 2:09:45 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 12/23/2014 10:01:36 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
And if you can prove there are damages (like not being hired or loss of business), then it is slander, I'd think.
I'm not so sure, though. Imagine I killed someone, and I confessed to the police, but the confession was thrown out due to legal reasons. I am acquitted, but people no damn well that I did, in fact, kill that person. Is it slander if it is true?
Yes, it would be slander. But that doesn't matter that much if you don't want to press charges. You are not a convicted killer, therefore it is slander. If you want to press charges that is your decision.
I'm not so sure that could happen. Am I not entitled to my opinion? But, it is beyond the thread, I suppose.
Again, charges not dropped =/= not guilty =/= innocent
As far as this letter goes, I don't know what to make of it. Did she say she was raped, or did her friend say this? Is the issue rape or is it statutory rape?
The girl allegedly raped was stating that the boy had raped her.
He never claimed that was the case. He said "why did you tell your friend I raped you". That may or may not be what happened. For all he knew (and for all he told us), the girl could have told her friend, and the friend called it rape and called the police.
I would assume statutory rape but I don't know the laws where he lived. He might not even be American. Either way, it would be statutory rape since both were minors.
He sounds British to me. And, we can't make the assumption it was anything, given the time (it could have been 50 years ago) and place - the laws are different.
What is statutory rape in MN may not be statutory rape in NY.
Me having sex with a 14 year old, even if it is their idea and they are sober, is still rape.
Are you 15?
I'm 32.
My point is, the police would still charge me with rape, even though it is not rape, except for the law calling it as such. If I was 15 it wouldn't' be rape.
Depending where you are, there is laws regarding when you can consent based on age alone. Was this the case? The girl was 13 after all.
In that case both were minors, the alleged rapist was 15 and the girl was 13. I am not sure how this would work since both are minors. It would vary according to local laws I would assume.
Probably, and he did say that the police considered charging them both with underage sex, which makes it sound like the girl said it wasn't rape, but the law says it was, and they didn't want to bother with a 15 year old.
While this is true, the reason they don't get in trouble is because there has to be proof she lied. Not prosecuting, being found not guilty, or even campus police saying "not responsible" (again, not sure what the hell that is), is not proof that she filed a false police report.
Fair enough, I knew why they didn't get in trouble. The question is, should they be able to get in trouble?
They are able to be in trouble, but, just like rape, it is a difficult charge to stick, and with society's view, the jury will almost always nullify it, unless a very compelling case can be made (like monetary incentive).
My work here is, finally, done.
DarthVitiosus
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12/23/2014 2:40:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/23/2014 2:22:38 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I'm not so sure that could happen. Am I not entitled to my opinion? But, it is beyond the thread, I suppose.
As I said, it would be up to you if you wanted to press charges. However, for someone to go around stating you killed this person and you are not convicted is slander.
He never claimed that was the case. He said "why did you tell your friend I raped you". That may or may not be what happened. For all he knew (and for all he told us), the girl could have told her friend, and the friend called it rape and called the police.
True but I think there is far more evidence then what he is stating.He didn't discuss the court case at all.
He sounds British to me. And, we can't make the assumption it was anything, given the time (it could have been 50 years ago) and place - the laws are different.
Fair enough.
I'm 32.
My point is, the police would still charge me with rape, even though it is not rape, except for the law calling it as such. If I was 15 it wouldn't' be rape.
Yes but this was a case between what would seem to be minors in the US & UK. If you were 15 it probably would be illegal most states and in the UK to do it anyways. Sexual activity is usually prohibited for anyone under the age of 16.
Probably, and he did say that the police considered charging them both with underage sex, which makes it sound like the girl said it wasn't rape, but the law says it was, and they didn't want to bother with a 15 year old.
If it was a years ago it probably would be a different set of laws. By today's legal standards both were doing something illegal.
They are able to be in trouble, but, just like rape, it is a difficult charge to stick, and with society's view, the jury will almost always nullify it, unless a very compelling case can be made (like monetary incentive).

Yes but should they be able to get in trouble?
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
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#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
Khaos_Mage
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12/23/2014 2:58:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/23/2014 2:40:40 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 12/23/2014 2:22:38 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I'm not so sure that could happen. Am I not entitled to my opinion? But, it is beyond the thread, I suppose.
As I said, it would be up to you if you wanted to press charges. However, for someone to go around stating you killed this person and you are not convicted is slander.
There is often the saying "it's not libel if it's true".
Further, if I am of the belief that you killed someone, regardless of what a jury has decided, am I not allowed to say so?
He never claimed that was the case. He said "why did you tell your friend I raped you". That may or may not be what happened. For all he knew (and for all he told us), the girl could have told her friend, and the friend called it rape and called the police.
True but I think there is far more evidence then what he is stating.He didn't discuss the court case at all.
There wasn't a court case. The charges were dropped.
He sounds British to me. And, we can't make the assumption it was anything, given the time (it could have been 50 years ago) and place - the laws are different.
Fair enough.
I'm 32.
My point is, the police would still charge me with rape, even though it is not rape, except for the law calling it as such. If I was 15 it wouldn't' be rape.
Yes but this was a case between what would seem to be minors in the US & UK. If you were 15 it probably would be illegal most states and in the UK to do it anyways. Sexual activity is usually prohibited for anyone under the age of 16.
The laws are confusing, that is for sure.
http://aspe.hhs.gov...
Notice age of victim and age of consent definitions. WTF is the difference?

Probably, and he did say that the police considered charging them both with underage sex, which makes it sound like the girl said it wasn't rape, but the law says it was, and they didn't want to bother with a 15 year old.
If it was a years ago it probably would be a different set of laws. By today's legal standards both were doing something illegal.
They are able to be in trouble, but, just like rape, it is a difficult charge to stick, and with society's view, the jury will almost always nullify it, unless a very compelling case can be made (like monetary incentive).

Yes but should they be able to get in trouble?
Filling a false police report is always a reason to be in trouble.
My work here is, finally, done.
DarthVitiosus
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12/23/2014 3:13:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/23/2014 2:58:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
There is often the saying "it's not libel if it's true".
Further, if I am of the belief that you killed someone, regardless of what a jury has decided, am I not allowed to say so?
It depends on what you are doing. If you are harming my employment chances or destroying my reputation with your slander, it is illegal. I can sue you for slandering me. It would also be illegal for you to conspire to harm my employ-ability.
There wasn't a court case. The charges were dropped.
The charges were dropped? I should go back and read it then because I only read it when it first came out, back in November.
The laws are confusing, that is for sure.
http://aspe.hhs.gov...
Notice age of victim and age of consent definitions. WTF is the difference?
Age of consent relates to the age they are allowed to consent to sexual activity. The age of victim relates to the age when they are not allowed to consent at all to sexual activity. It would be under the age of consent and between the age of victim where the child is not allowed to consent at all to any sexual activity. It is speculated that someone at the age of victim has the capacity or ability to consent but it is not legally acceptable for them to consent. Versus children under the age of victim, they do not have the capacity to consent at all.
Filling a false police report is always a reason to be in trouble.
Fair enough.
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#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.