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Antisemitism

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/2/2010 7:09:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Would like to hear theories about its roots. Antisemitism is prevalent in all societies and all strata of those societies. I don't mean anti-israeli, but specifically the Jew. Why is the Jew so universally despised, or is it not so universal?

thoughts?
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 7:42:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Like all prejudice the basic reasons are ignorance and xenophobia.

Regarding Jews specifically, perhaps the single most important thing that has contributed to negative stereotypes about Jews is that they have traditionally been very succesful as money-lenders, landlords and bankers.

The dominance of other Abrahmic religions and particularly the cult of Catholicism in Europe and of Islam in the Middle East have probably played a role in painting Jews as outsiders and Christ kilers (although Jesus was of course Jewish). Some Christians such as (perhaps most infamously) Ann Coulter regard Jews as "incomplete Christians".

Eugenicists and Nazis probably played a big part too, promoting the idea that Jews, Gypsies and the like were separate and inferior races, this is the ideology that spawns far-right antisemitism.

The genocides depicted in the Old Testament (those with a basis in history anyway) could well have contributed to ancient hatred for them in the Middle East but I'm less sure how relevant that is.

I know you wanted to keep Zionism of it, but in recent history I don't think this can be ignored. This philosophy and the actions of the state of Israel definitely provide the strongest fuel for modern anti-semetism.
innomen
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6/2/2010 7:54:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 7:42:18 AM, feverish wrote:
Like all prejudice the basic reasons are ignorance and xenophobia.

Regarding Jews specifically, perhaps the single most important thing that has contributed to negative stereotypes about Jews is that they have traditionally been very succesful as money-lenders, landlords and bankers.

The dominance of other Abrahmic religions and particularly the cult of Catholicism in Europe and of Islam in the Middle East have probably played a role in painting Jews as outsiders and Christ kilers (although Jesus was of course Jewish). Some Christians such as (perhaps most infamously) Ann Coulter regard Jews as "incomplete Christians".

Eugenicists and Nazis probably played a big part too, promoting the idea that Jews, Gypsies and the like were separate and inferior races, this is the ideology that spawns far-right antisemitism.

The genocides depicted in the Old Testament (those with a basis in history anyway) could well have contributed to ancient hatred for them in the Middle East but I'm less sure how relevant that is.

I know you wanted to keep Zionism of it, but in recent history I don't think this can be ignored. This philosophy and the actions of the state of Israel definitely provide the strongest fuel for modern anti-semetism.

How do you explain the Russian communists who were rampant anti-semites, and were also founded by many Jews. Communists who were avowed atheists, and Jews who were not terribly religious but often intellectual?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/2/2010 8:18:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Jews have always been a minority and a disproportionately successful one. They are therefore alien and successful and that invites hatred and jealousy.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
feverish
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6/2/2010 8:56:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 7:54:22 AM, innomen wrote:

How do you explain the Russian communists who were rampant anti-semites, and were also founded by many Jews. Communists who were avowed atheists, and Jews who were not terribly religious but often intellectual?

Dunno really. Possibly they were influenced by the fascist racial rhetoric of the time or more likely it was a long standing tradition of prejudice with roots in the traditional Eastern Orthodox Christian communities.

And what Cereb said.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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6/2/2010 9:02:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Two first class replies from Cereb and Feverish there.

The sad thing is that today anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian views are often described, wrongly, as anti-Semitic.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
innomen
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6/2/2010 11:45:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 9:02:55 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Two first class replies from Cereb and Feverish there.

The sad thing is that today anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian views are often described, wrongly, as anti-Semitic.

I understand what you are saying, and i think that there are people who are genuinely anti-Israel and not anti-Jew, then there are others who are anti-jew and looking for any opportunity to hate. Everyone has a capacity to hate, and many look for any vent for that hate; it's almost in our genetic make up to hate Jews, or so it would seem.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/2/2010 11:52:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I know on the Muslim side, a lot of the resentment towards Jews in a somewhat historical context came from what was called the "break with the Jews," which was either in the Koran or a hadith which describes Mohammed's displeasure with the Jews in Medina for some reason or another. That has coloured their perception a lot, methinks.

In an anthropological and more historical context, its thought that the Jews in Medina became more of a hindrance than an ally during the reign of a Caliph after Mohammed's death, a Caliph whose name I forget. That Caliph added the passage or hadith and attributed it to Mohammed or God or something in order to make it seem legitimate why he "broke with the Jews."
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 11:55:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:45:47 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/2/2010 9:02:55 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

The sad thing is that today anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian views are often described, wrongly, as anti-Semitic.

I understand what you are saying, and i think that there are people who are genuinely anti-Israel and not anti-Jew, then there are others who are anti-jew and looking for any opportunity to hate.

Like I said before, I think that Zionism fuels anti-semitism but I would like to think that most reasonable critics of Israel do not hate Jewish people.

Everyone has a capacity to hate, and many look for any vent for that hate; it's almost in our genetic make up to hate Jews, or so it would seem.

I can accept the possibility that the tendency to hate someone could be said to be genetic. But the idea that we are genetically pre-dispositioned specifically against Jewish people, if intended seriously, would be pretty ludicrous.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 11:58:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 7:54:22 AM, innomen wrote:

How do you explain the Russian communists who were rampant anti-semites, and were also founded by many Jews. Communists who were avowed atheists, and Jews who were not terribly religious but often intellectual?

I've always found that interesting, considering many of the Bolsheviks were of Jewish heritage themselves. I don't even think they were just critical of Judaism on the basis that they were militant Atheists either, but rather that they actually were outright Anti-Semitic.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/2/2010 12:00:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
About the communist Russia thing... anyone ever notice that all of Stalins eventual enemies, including Trotsky, Bukharin and etc., were Jewish? Eh? Its possible that Stalin used popular resentment against Jews to fuel hate against them.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 12:00:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:55:51 AM, feverish wrote:

Like I said before, I think that Zionism fuels anti-semitism but I would like to think that most reasonable critics of Israel do not hate Jewish people.

While that is true in many cases, I could still argue otherwise. Just on facebook alone I have come across many genuinely Anti-Semitic Pro-Palestinians. I pretty much cringe every time I see their comments in support of Hitler. Apparently Mein Kampf is a popular read in many Islamic countries or so I hear...
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 12:18:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 12:00:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:55:51 AM, feverish wrote:

Like I said before, I think that Zionism fuels anti-semitism but I would like to think that most reasonable critics of Israel do not hate Jewish people.

While that is true in many cases, I could still argue otherwise. Just on facebook alone I have come across many genuinely Anti-Semitic Pro-Palestinians. I pretty much cringe every time I see their comments in support of Hitler. Apparently Mein Kampf is a popular read in many Islamic countries or so I hear...

Wow, you've really flipped on this issue haven't you? Are you saying that you think the majority of pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic?

I'm not denying that plenty are, I know some Muslims consider Jews scum and will call them pigs and that Hitler paraphenalia such as Mein Kampf has been sold in Islamic bookstores here in the UK.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/2/2010 12:43:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 12:00:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
About the communist Russia thing... anyone ever notice that all of Stalins eventual enemies, including Trotsky, Bukharin and etc., were Jewish? Eh? Its possible that Stalin used popular resentment against Jews to fuel hate against them.

It's kind of funny, because if you look at the Stalinist purges, they were filled with Jews, but the actual communist line was antisemitism is the result of capitalist values, or some such nonsense, but in his paranoia based initiatives the Jews bore a huge burden. I think that the antisemitism of Europe is very deep, but in eastern Europe it's particularly deep and couldn't be removed from the Russian culture regardless of communism.
InsertNameHere
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6/2/2010 2:24:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 12:18:46 PM, feverish wrote:

Wow, you've really flipped on this issue haven't you? Are you saying that you think the majority of pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic?

Maybe not the majority, but a huge number. And yes, I've flipped after realizing how Hamas are islamic supremacist scum who brainwash and oppress their own people simply to get the world's sympathy. It's all part of their plan to attempt to destroy Israel.

I'm not denying that plenty are, I know some Muslims consider Jews scum and will call them pigs and that Hitler paraphenalia such as Mein Kampf has been sold in Islamic bookstores here in the UK.

Exactly, which scares me. Even outside Islamic countries Anti-Semitism is big among Muslims.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 2:55:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:24:34 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 12:18:46 PM, feverish wrote:

Wow, you've really flipped on this issue haven't you? Are you saying that you think the majority of pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic?

Maybe not the majority, but a huge number. And yes, I've flipped after realizing how Hamas are islamic supremacist scum who brainwash and oppress their own people simply to get the world's sympathy. It's all part of their plan to attempt to destroy Israel.

Was there any particular event or piece of information that triggered this sudden realisation for you?

I'm not naive enough to suggest that Hamas are purely innocent freedom fighters, I acknowledge that their military wing commit attrocities of their own, but they clearly exist in response to the actions of the state of Israel rather than vice versa, Hamas only having been formed in the late 80s.

They are also as democratically elected as Israel's government.

I'm not denying that plenty are, I know some Muslims consider Jews scum and will call them pigs and that Hitler paraphenalia such as Mein Kampf has been sold in Islamic bookstores here in the UK.

Exactly, which scares me. Even outside Islamic countries Anti-Semitism is big among Muslims.

Do you not think this sentiment is strongly fueled by the Israeli government's actions?

There are blood-thirsty bigots on both sides, but one is far better equipped than the other.
InsertNameHere
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6/2/2010 3:04:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:55:25 PM, feverish wrote:

Was there any particular event or piece of information that triggered this sudden realisation for you?

Not really, but I have been talking to Pro-Israel people for months. They provided alot of seemingly unbiased information. Also, keep in mind that I was originally Pro-Israel before switching sides.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that Hamas are purely innocent freedom fighters, I acknowledge that their military wing commit attrocities of their own, but they clearly exist in response to the actions of the state of Israel rather than vice versa, Hamas only having been formed in the late 80s.

Good. I don't think any sane person would regard Hamas as purely innocent freedom fighters.

They are also as democratically elected as Israel's government.

Which just comes to show what extent Hamas will go to in order to get support. Their sole purpose for existing is to wipe out Israel. I'm much more in favour of co-existence which Hamas makes impossible.

Do you not think this sentiment is strongly fueled by the Israeli government's actions?

Alot of it, sure. However it's definitely a problem when Hamas is openly preaching Anti-Semitism and brainwashing their children with these views.

There are blood-thirsty bigots on both sides, but one is far better equipped than the other.

Of course there is. Neither side is perfect.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/2/2010 3:11:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Israel is the nation that mostly represents Jews, and when it does something bad, people try to correlate that to Jews themselves. This is a normal human reaction.

I am not antisemitic, nor have I met Muslims who are, although some express some negative feelings about them, but generally because they think of Jews supporting evil actions of Israel, not simply because they are being Jews.
InsertNameHere
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6/2/2010 3:14:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:11:51 PM, Mirza wrote:
Israel is the nation that mostly represents Jews, and when it does something bad, people try to correlate that to Jews themselves. This is a normal human reaction.

I am not antisemitic, nor have I met Muslims who are, although some express some negative feelings about them, but generally because they think of Jews supporting evil actions of Israel, not simply because they are being Jews.

I don't which Muslims I'm talking to then because most of the ones I have talked to are very pro-hitler and support that he killed Jews.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/2/2010 3:17:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:14:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I don't which Muslims I'm talking to then because most of the ones I have talked to are very pro-hitler and support that he killed Jews.
Who are they?
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 3:21:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:17:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:14:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I don't which Muslims I'm talking to then because most of the ones I have talked to are very pro-hitler and support that he killed Jews.
Who are they?

Like almost every muslim I have talked to or even seen posting anything on facebook, which are alot...
MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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6/2/2010 3:29:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:21:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:17:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:14:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I don't which Muslims I'm talking to then because most of the ones I have talked to are very pro-hitler and support that he killed Jews.
Who are they?

Like almost every muslim I have talked to or even seen posting anything on facebook, which are alot...

joined a lot of militant groups while you were among them?? I know quite a few muslims at school and, granted I don't talk to them about Jews or even religion for that matter, they almost all seem like really nice people.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 3:34:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:29:26 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:21:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:17:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:14:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I don't which Muslims I'm talking to then because most of the ones I have talked to are very pro-hitler and support that he killed Jews.
Who are they?

Like almost every muslim I have talked to or even seen posting anything on facebook, which are alot...

joined a lot of militant groups while you were among them?? I know quite a few muslims at school and, granted I don't talk to them about Jews or even religion for that matter, they almost all seem like really nice people.

Even some of the less militant ones were like that. Muslims are just naturally hateful towards Jews.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/2/2010 3:35:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:21:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Like almost every muslim I have talked to or even seen posting anything on facebook, which are alot...
Maybe they do not differentiate between Zionists and Jews. They may believe that all Jews are anti-Islam, support Israeli occupation in such-and-such areas, and so on. I think they are not much informed.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 3:44:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:35:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:21:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Like almost every muslim I have talked to or even seen posting anything on facebook, which are alot...
Maybe they do not differentiate between Zionists and Jews. They may believe that all Jews are anti-Islam, support Israeli occupation in such-and-such areas, and so on. I think they are not much informed.

Regardless of what it is, they come across as militant and anti-semitic.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/2/2010 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:44:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Regardless of what it is, they come across as militant and anti-semitic.
You will also find Jews being anti-Muslim, etc. They are no better. They just appear t be lower in numbers. If they were over a billion, we would see the same thing in, at minimum, the same number of such anti-this-and-that claims as we see with Muslims today, such as some being antisemitic. I still doubt most of those claiming to be antisemitic are against Jews per se, but more against Zionists and actions of Israel, and those Jews who support those actions.
InsertNameHere
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6/2/2010 3:48:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:47:37 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:44:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Regardless of what it is, they come across as militant and anti-semitic.
You will also find Jews being anti-Muslim, etc. They are no better. They just appear t be lower in numbers. If they were over a billion, we would see the same thing in, at minimum, the same number of such anti-this-and-that claims as we see with Muslims today, such as some being antisemitic. I still doubt most of those claiming to be antisemitic are against Jews per se, but more against Zionists and actions of Israel, and those Jews who support those actions.

I doubt muslims screaming "Hitler" and praising him are just Anti-Israel...
Mirza
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6/2/2010 3:52:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:48:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I doubt muslims screaming "Hitler" and praising him are just Anti-Israel...
I do not know where you find these people, nor who they are, but I "think" they are even against Shari'a Law, do not pray, and so on. Hitler was not only killing Jews, but also pointed guns at other races. There is nothing for a Muslim to like about him.
InsertNameHere
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6/2/2010 3:54:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:52:25 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/2/2010 3:48:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I doubt muslims screaming "Hitler" and praising him are just Anti-Israel...
I do not know where you find these people, nor who they are, but I "think" they are even against Shari'a Law, do not pray, and so on. Hitler was not only killing Jews, but also pointed guns at other races. There is nothing for a Muslim to like about him.

Try telling Turks that. I think most of them were Turks.
Mirza
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6/2/2010 3:58:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 3:54:22 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Try telling Turks that. I think most of them were Turks.
In some cases, that fact speaks for itself.

I would like to talk to them, but they are apparently on Facebook. I do not have a Facebook account, nor do I plan on having one nowadays.