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Leelah Alcorn and Co.

Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 3:05:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You can read the story here if you haven't already done so:
vadamagazine.com/30/12/2014/news/transgender-teen-commits-suicide

The most unfortunate part of this story is that it is being looked and framed as a transgender/LGBT issue instead of looking at the root problems that truly caused this poor soul to kill herself. It is only superficially an LGBT issue, only on the surface, only in the details. To see why I say this, take a look at her story one more time:

* Religious parents and community/society persecuted a child based on their completely unfounded and evidence-dry religious beliefs.

* Parents taught child religion and indoctrinated child into religion with society's full support, "after all, it is the right of the parent to do so", says society.

* Child is desperate for other people's love, other people's respect (and was especially needy for familial and romantic love and acceptance)

You can see 3 main themes that truly fueled this child's hurt and led to her demise: religion, the family unit, and self-hate. These are the main themes of the entirety of human existence; every culture and society that has ever existed propagates at least one of them. And behind every broken person, every murderer, suicide victim, rapist, corrupt politician, you will see these themes. This is why I say that things have never really changed. The details change: homosexuals have it easier, women have more choice, blacks don't get lynched. But the main themes, the main sources of our suffering and corruption have always been in place.

Religion. It once helped us make sense of a senseless world. But now, we have science and religion is only used for its comforting delusions and to propagate political ideas. Now it is more harm than good. It gives its followers the excuse to persecute those who are different for no tangible reason whatsoever, and without any evidence to back it up. Leelah is an example of such a victim. Not only that, but it cripples the minds of its followers by blinding them to any other path, keeping them in the delusion that life is forever and that things are just fine. It gives them the insane notion that if they just believe hard enough, and pray long enough, all of the world's problems will just disappear. It is this attitude in particular that is so harmful to any real change. People believe that some other being is accountable for our evils and that some other being will save us from ourselves. We must rid the world of the anti-science, anti-truth, and anti-logic that is religion if we are to call ourselves rational beings.

The family unit. It too is an example of a social structure that used to be beneficial, but now has lost all its benefits. The family unit is the number one cause of child abuse because custody is determined solely by birth, not by merit. It doesn't matter if the parent is even competent as a human being, much less as a parent, they will be both obligated and given the rights to do whatever they please with a child, only to be dealt with after the fact. It is only after the child has already been abused that society even thinks about taking action, after the damage is already done. After it is too late. The family unit must be replaced with a mandatory parental exam/license. No child deserves to be thrown into the hands of chance when their abuses could be prevented.

Self-hate. This is the crowning glory of all human perversions. Religion and the family unit simply serve the cause of self-hate, they both work to break the individual of all self-love. This is because society runs on broken people. A broken person won't protest against injustice towards themselves. A broken person will allow authorities to do as they please to them. A broken person doesn't have the heart or courage to stand up to their abusers. A true self-lover is a threat to society, because they will raise hell to get even, to avenge themselves and others who have been in their place. Leelah herself was a victim of self-hate. She could not bear living alone, without the support of her parents and of a prospective lover. She was addicted to external love and acceptance and her capacity for self-love and self-acceptance was torn away by society. Society broke her, then instructed her to look for love from others, only to find that others would not love her back. The poor soul could not live loveless, none of us can. But if society taught us to depend only on ourselves for love, if society empowered us to look inwards for love and to embrace the truth that we are all alone in our minds (and since we are nothing but minds, we must also embrace the truth that we are in essence alone), maybe Leelah and others like her would still be with us.

Leelah begged us, with a politeness none of us even deserve, to fix society. Will we? If history is any indicator: no, the insanity will only manifest itself differently. LGBT folks might be treated better, but the root causes of her demise will live on, to claim other victims. LGBT rights will simply be another useless detail, amongst thousands of other useless details.

Leelah died in vain.
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 3:21:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:18:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Bye Josh, we'll forget about it in 2 months.

Unfortunately, that will be the case.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/2/2015 3:26:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:21:17 PM, Harper wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:18:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Bye Josh, we'll forget about it in 2 months.

Unfortunately, that will be the case.

Killing yourself does not create change, nor should it. It does not justify the legitimacy of a movement, only how much support an individual has for it. If he actually cared about the movement, he would have and could have waited. He acknowledged in his suicide letter that he would have to wait until he was 18. He knew that, he had a time span, he said that he had support of his friends at school, he had access to the internet (which may or may not have really been a positive influence), but instead he choose to throw away his life and tell us to do something about it. Sorry, if you're the one who is passionate about something, you need to be the one to do it. Not cop out and demand that others do it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 3:31:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Killing yourself does not create change, nor should it. It does not justify the legitimacy of a movement, only how much support an individual has for it. If he actually cared about the movement, he would have and could have waited. He acknowledged in his suicide letter that he would have to wait until he was 18. He knew that, he had a time span, he said that he had support of his friends at school, he had access to the internet (which may or may not have really been a positive influence), but instead he choose to throw away his life and tell us to do something about it. Sorry, if you're the one who is passionate about something, you need to be the one to do it. Not cop out and demand that others do it.

Killing yourself indeed does not create change, but the reality is that very little will ever truly change society in any positive manner, as I have explained in my original post. Humanity doesn't seem intent on changing anything for real, some useless details will be dealt with (women's rights, LGBT rights, men's rights, etc.), but the actual root causes of most of our problems look like they'll almost never be dealt with.
Ore_Ele
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1/2/2015 3:39:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:31:05 PM, Harper wrote:
Killing yourself does not create change, nor should it. It does not justify the legitimacy of a movement, only how much support an individual has for it. If he actually cared about the movement, he would have and could have waited. He acknowledged in his suicide letter that he would have to wait until he was 18. He knew that, he had a time span, he said that he had support of his friends at school, he had access to the internet (which may or may not have really been a positive influence), but instead he choose to throw away his life and tell us to do something about it. Sorry, if you're the one who is passionate about something, you need to be the one to do it. Not cop out and demand that others do it.

Killing yourself indeed does not create change, but the reality is that very little will ever truly change society in any positive manner, as I have explained in my original post. Humanity doesn't seem intent on changing anything for real, some useless details will be dealt with (women's rights, LGBT rights, men's rights, etc.), but the actual root causes of most of our problems look like they'll almost never be dealt with.

I disagree on several levels. First, that "women's rights, LGBT rights" and Civil rights are "some useless details." But also your evaluation of the root cause, from religion being more harm than good, to family units being of no beneficial value.

However, given the attitude of the original post, it seems that your mind is already set and so I don't see a point in arguing it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 3:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I disagree on several levels. First, that "women's rights, LGBT rights" and Civil rights are "some useless details." But also your evaluation of the root cause, from religion being more harm than good, to family units being of no beneficial value.

However, given the attitude of the original post, it seems that your mind is already set and so I don't see a point in arguing it.

You are free to disagree. One of the unique things about the modern age is that no matter how different people's beliefs are, we all generally believe in the right to free expression. Though, if you don't mind, could you explain why you don't agree? I do not seek to debate you, I simply want to understand the "other side", if you will. It is important for all folks (especially teenaged ones like myself) to understand all sides of a matter, as it results in enlightenment and wisdom.
Ore_Ele
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1/2/2015 3:50:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But lets give it a try. We'll focus on just the family unit as to keep this concise.

Your claim is that families are negative influences on the whole and that we should have parenting exams (I'm not even that fascist, lol). There are two ways this can be looked at and I'll let you state which you mean (and expand if you wish) before spending time doing the wrong thing.

Either all children born are taken from their birth parents and placed with parents that are determined to be the most effective at raising them, or only people that are determined to be effective parents are allowed to give birth to begin with (then they get to keep their own children).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/2/2015 3:54:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sad, and the OP is well-written, but you fall short, Harper, in projecting your strengths into everyone .....For most people, religion is to push back the shade, so Jesus is savior, fighting back the fires of hell. You have it written in your summaries that you love only solitude, the four walls of your room, but what were they eternal? Would you exist alone forever, deteriorating infinitely? Or have you 'rationalised' this as an absurdity? It's just not as simple as you're making out; though I do agree something needs to change.
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,364
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1/2/2015 3:54:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:26:40 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:21:17 PM, Harper wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:18:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Bye Josh, we'll forget about it in 2 months.

Unfortunately, that will be the case.

Killing yourself does not create change, nor should it. It does not justify the legitimacy of a movement, only how much support an individual has for it. If he actually cared about the movement, he would have and could have waited. He acknowledged in his suicide letter that he would have to wait until he was 18. He knew that, he had a time span, he said that he had support of his friends at school, he had access to the internet (which may or may not have really been a positive influence), but instead he choose to throw away his life and tell us to do something about it. Sorry, if you're the one who is passionate about something, you need to be the one to do it. Not cop out and demand that others do it.

I like this a little, but it's too big to sig.
Solonkr~
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I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 3:56:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't like it. Life is hard, and accepting yourself is hard. You should not insist of your strength in others.
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.
Ore_Ele
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1/2/2015 4:02:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.

lol, he died, because he wanted special prisoner status, not equality.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 4:04:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:02:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.

lol, he died, because he wanted special prisoner status, not equality.

He died for Ireland.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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1/2/2015 4:04:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would create a satire, but the backlash and outrage against me would be too great.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Ore_Ele
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1/2/2015 4:05:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:02:50 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
It is about as cheap as it comes to say, "No, you killed yourself; too bad."

It is more like, "you failed to motivate me to see your side. And now you are dead so you can no longer try to convince me."

Again, the act of killing yourself (or others for that matter) does not give any side more justification. It only shows that one side has more passion for their views. Japanese pilots and soldiers were more than willing to kill themselves for their cause, but it does not make it any more right or wrong.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/2/2015 4:08:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:05:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:02:50 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
It is about as cheap as it comes to say, "No, you killed yourself; too bad."

It is more like, "you failed to motivate me to see your side. And now you are dead so you can no longer try to convince me."

Again, the act of killing yourself (or others for that matter) does not give any side more justification. It only shows that one side has more passion for their views. Japanese pilots and soldiers were more than willing to kill themselves for their cause, but it does not make it any more right or wrong.

Psychologically speaking, it does. You are in fact more likely to be heard when you take yourself out of the equation. And to not eat ---there's one for you, right?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/2/2015 4:10:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:04:07 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:02:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.

lol, he died, because he wanted special prisoner status, not equality.

He died for Ireland.

He went on a hunger strike specifically because they took away the 1972 special category status. That was the reason, it wasn't "for Ireland" or something else like that. He joined the IRA in 1972 and was quickly arrested on weapons charges. He was released in 1976 and went right back to jail for bombing a store. He sat in prison (probably planning his next bombing) for 4 years before they took away the special category status (which basically listed him and other IRAs as prisoners of war and gave them several special privileges over normal prisoners, like not having to do prison work and not having to wear prison uniforms). His hunger strike was specifically because of the status change, not some higher goal.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/2/2015 4:12:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:10:22 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:04:07 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:02:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.

lol, he died, because he wanted special prisoner status, not equality.

He died for Ireland.

He went on a hunger strike specifically because they took away the 1972 special category status. That was the reason, it wasn't "for Ireland" or something else like that. He joined the IRA in 1972 and was quickly arrested on weapons charges. He was released in 1976 and went right back to jail for bombing a store. He sat in prison (probably planning his next bombing) for 4 years before they took away the special category status (which basically listed him and other IRAs as prisoners of war and gave them several special privileges over normal prisoners, like not having to do prison work and not having to wear prison uniforms). His hunger strike was specifically because of the status change, not some higher goal.

Who starves themselves to death over something so petty? It's all some higher goal. Can you imagine starving yourself to death?

I'm not saying people aren't often deranged.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/2/2015 4:12:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:08:29 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:05:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:02:50 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
It is about as cheap as it comes to say, "No, you killed yourself; too bad."

It is more like, "you failed to motivate me to see your side. And now you are dead so you can no longer try to convince me."

Again, the act of killing yourself (or others for that matter) does not give any side more justification. It only shows that one side has more passion for their views. Japanese pilots and soldiers were more than willing to kill themselves for their cause, but it does not make it any more right or wrong.

Psychologically speaking, it does. You are in fact more likely to be heard when you take yourself out of the equation. And to not eat ---there's one for you, right?

You are more likely to be heard when others take you out of the equation. MLK Jr was so powerful because he choose to life and fight, until others removed him from the equation. Same with Gandhi. There is a real difference between removing yourself from the equation and being so powerful that others have to remove you.

We'll see just how impotent Josh was when he too fades into just another statistic, rather than staying and fighting for his cause.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/2/2015 4:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:12:26 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:10:22 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:04:07 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:02:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:59:19 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
And what else could Bobby Sands do but hunger strike? Did that not take supreme willpower? These things can be hugely disarming too.

lol, he died, because he wanted special prisoner status, not equality.

He died for Ireland.

He went on a hunger strike specifically because they took away the 1972 special category status. That was the reason, it wasn't "for Ireland" or something else like that. He joined the IRA in 1972 and was quickly arrested on weapons charges. He was released in 1976 and went right back to jail for bombing a store. He sat in prison (probably planning his next bombing) for 4 years before they took away the special category status (which basically listed him and other IRAs as prisoners of war and gave them several special privileges over normal prisoners, like not having to do prison work and not having to wear prison uniforms). His hunger strike was specifically because of the status change, not some higher goal.

Who starves themselves to death over something so petty?

Bobby Sands does.

It's all some higher goal. Can you imagine starving yourself to death?

I'm not saying people aren't often deranged.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 4:13:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:50:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
But lets give it a try. We'll focus on just the family unit as to keep this concise.

Your claim is that families are negative influences on the whole and that we should have parenting exams (I'm not even that fascist, lol). There are two ways this can be looked at and I'll let you state which you mean (and expand if you wish) before spending time doing the wrong thing.

Either all children born are taken from their birth parents and placed with parents that are determined to be the most effective at raising them, or only people that are determined to be effective parents are allowed to give birth to begin with (then they get to keep their own children).

Thank you for allowing me to elaborate instead of jumping to conclusions. An ideal child-care system in my current opinion would look more like your second option, but with some important additions (I apologize in advance if it is too long a read, I just want it to be clear):

A male and female have sex and the encounter results in a pregnancy. They are to report her pregnancy within 2 weeks of her learning the news. A board of certified child psychologists evaluate the parents for psychological and economic troubles. A parent who has a history of violence, drug/alcohol abuse, cannot monetarily support the child or is religiously/ideologically fanatic (and by that I mean that the parent intends on indoctrinating the child into their religion or other such ideology whether it be political, cultural, or otherwise) will be denied custody of the child. However, in the case that the parent is mentally healthy, but is simply economically troubled, the government could provide monetary assistance to keep the child from living hungry or in poverty.

If the parent passes the examination, he or she (this may be a personal bias, but I feel that mothers would be more likely to pass the test than fathers) will gain custody of the child. If both parents fail the test or the parents do not want the child, then the child will either 1) be placed in a child care facility, much like today's orphanages, but instead staffed with folks who did pass the exam (any individual adult can sign up for an exam, not just expecting parents) or 2) the child will be under the care of an individual couple or individual person who passed the test (if they agree to it, of course).

After the child is settled into one of the two options, the child will be examined for 5 days every year or two at a live-in pediatric clinic for any hint of psychological problems. The parents will be required to renew their license every 2-3 years, as well.
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 4:16:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ore_Ele, you're being a child, to be quite honest. To give life and suffering to a thing and get nothing but snarky comments and denials in response. What do you do, Ore_Ele? Eat healthily and well and pretend it's all all right?
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 4:20:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 3:54:10 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Sad, and the OP is well-written, but you fall short, Harper, in projecting your strengths into everyone .....For most people, religion is to push back the shade, so Jesus is savior, fighting back the fires of hell. You have it written in your summaries that you love only solitude, the four walls of your room, but what were they eternal? Would you exist alone forever, deteriorating infinitely? Or have you 'rationalised' this as an absurdity? It's just not as simple as you're making out; though I do agree something needs to change.

Thank you for taking your time to read and complimenting my writing style, your comment is appreciated. And I know, the human mind is too broken to accept the truths of life, which is why things will probably just stay the same. People will continue to hide behind mythology. But l choose to hope for something else, hopeless as it may be.

I love myself principally, but I love solitude as an extension of self love. And yes, I would live in solitude forever if I had the chance.
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 4:21:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:20:38 PM, Harper wrote:
At 1/2/2015 3:54:10 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Sad, and the OP is well-written, but you fall short, Harper, in projecting your strengths into everyone .....For most people, religion is to push back the shade, so Jesus is savior, fighting back the fires of hell. You have it written in your summaries that you love only solitude, the four walls of your room, but what were they eternal? Would you exist alone forever, deteriorating infinitely? Or have you 'rationalised' this as an absurdity? It's just not as simple as you're making out; though I do agree something needs to change.

Thank you for taking your time to read and complimenting my writing style, your comment is appreciated. And I know, the human mind is too broken to accept the truths of life, which is why things will probably just stay the same. People will continue to hide behind mythology. But l choose to hope for something else, hopeless as it may be.

I love myself principally, but I love solitude as an extension of self love. And yes, I would live in solitude forever if I had the chance.

I doubt it.
AnDoctuir
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1/2/2015 4:26:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:24:24 PM, Harper wrote:
I doubt it.

You are free to doubt; but trust that I am earnest.

Nice talking to you anyway. ;)
Harper
Posts: 374
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1/2/2015 4:28:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 4:26:06 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/2/2015 4:24:24 PM, Harper wrote:
I doubt it.

You are free to doubt; but trust that I am earnest.

Nice talking to you anyway. ;)

Likewise. Internet strangers are always full of beautiful surprises.