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On Leelah Alcorn:

PotBelliedGeek
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1/3/2015 3:54:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. I have been told that I need to feel sensitive to her parents loss. Sorry, no can do. They are terrible people and deserve every bit of pain they feel right now. Maybe someday they will realize how despicable they have been, and that they are in large part responsible for what happened to Leelah, but until then I have no sympathy for them.

2. This has sparked a national appeal for the prohibition of religious anti-gender fluid "therapy", a sign that at long last the trans and gender fluid community is stepping into the public eye. However, I cannot help but feel that the community in question lacks adequate political leadership that is necessary to achieve their goals. Until they can organize themselves behind leaders who know politics at least well enough to address national petitions to the right people (Pelosi and Reid can't do a thing, they are the wrong people from whom to seek help) and to design a petition that actually has a chance at surviving the shark-infested waters that are American Public Policy, then they will not get get anywhere. They will continue to be brushed under the rug, given temporary pacification, and ultimately ignored.

3. To all the people calling for the arrest and indictment of Abdullah Ahmed (the truck driver In front of whom Leelah cast herself), you all are a pretentious lot of ignorant malcontents who would hang the butler for the crimes of the cook. Shut your howling screamers and go pick up a book or something.
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YYW
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1/3/2015 7:43:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 3:54:44 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
1. I have been told that I need to feel sensitive to her parents loss. Sorry, no can do. They are terrible people and deserve every bit of pain they feel right now. Maybe someday they will realize how despicable they have been, and that they are in large part responsible for what happened to Leelah, but until then I have no sympathy for them.

I agree completely. It is their fault their child committed suicide.

2. This has sparked a national appeal for the prohibition of religious anti-gender fluid "therapy", a sign that at long last the trans and gender fluid community is stepping into the public eye. However, I cannot help but feel that the community in question lacks adequate political leadership that is necessary to achieve their goals.

I agree.

Until they can organize themselves behind leaders who know politics at least well enough to address national petitions to the right people (Pelosi and Reid can't do a thing, they are the wrong people from whom to seek help) and to design a petition that actually has a chance at surviving the shark-infested waters that are American Public Policy, then they will not get get anywhere. They will continue to be brushed under the rug, given temporary pacification, and ultimately ignored.

A national law prohibiting anti-gay or gender reparative therapy which was purposed to re-orient trans persons would be in order.

3. To all the people calling for the arrest and indictment of Abdullah Ahmed (the truck driver In front of whom Leelah cast herself), you all are a pretentious lot of ignorant malcontents who would hang the butler for the crimes of the cook. Shut your howling screamers and go pick up a book or something.

I didn't even know that people were calling for the truck driver's arrest. If they are... then fvck them.
Tsar of DDO
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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1/4/2015 1:51:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 7:43:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 1/3/2015 3:54:44 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
1. I have been told that I need to feel sensitive to her parents loss. Sorry, no can do. They are terrible people and deserve every bit of pain they feel right now. Maybe someday they will realize how despicable they have been, and that they are in large part responsible for what happened to Leelah, but until then I have no sympathy for them.

I agree completely. It is their fault their child committed suicide.

2. This has sparked a national appeal for the prohibition of religious anti-gender fluid "therapy", a sign that at long last the trans and gender fluid community is stepping into the public eye. However, I cannot help but feel that the community in question lacks adequate political leadership that is necessary to achieve their goals.

I agree.

Until they can organize themselves behind leaders who know politics at least well enough to address national petitions to the right people (Pelosi and Reid can't do a thing, they are the wrong people from whom to seek help) and to design a petition that actually has a chance at surviving the shark-infested waters that are American Public Policy, then they will not get get anywhere. They will continue to be brushed under the rug, given temporary pacification, and ultimately ignored.

A national law prohibiting anti-gay or gender reparative therapy which was purposed to re-orient trans persons would be in order.

That it might be, but it cannot pass, not in our current congress. Technically, two people can sit down and talk about whatever they want, for whatever purpose they want, and parents with legal custody can take their child to whatever religious thingamajigger they want. A better legislative step to pursue would be to add gender identity to the standard "Illegal to discriminate against" alongside race, nationality, and creed. That, at least, will give the trans community the publicity and awareness they need in order to pursue more extensive legislation down the road.


3. To all the people calling for the arrest and indictment of Abdullah Ahmed (the truck driver In front of whom Leelah cast herself), you all are a pretentious lot of ignorant malcontents who would hang the butler for the crimes of the cook. Shut your howling screamers and go pick up a book or something.

I didn't even know that people were calling for the truck driver's arrest. If they are... then fvck them.

Yes, quite a few people are labeling Mr. Ahmed "Transphobic fucktard murderer" and accusing him of assisting in the suicide, despite the fact that there is no evidence suggesting anything of the sort, and there is reason to believe that Mr. Ahmed had never met nor even heard of Leelah. He is an interstate trucker, and was on a long distance delivery.
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PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?
Religion Forum Ambassador

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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1/4/2015 2:21:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ah bleep it. I'll just make the satire thread anyway. This religion bashing has gone on long enough.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,142
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1/4/2015 2:24:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Lmao
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.


Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.


The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.


Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.



Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.


The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 2:53:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.

Oh okay. I understand now. That did get out of hand a bit, didn't it?

Let's run down the logical side of things.

1. Human beings are worthy of respect as rational beings.
2. The loss of a human life is subsequently tragic.
3. Valuing gender roles over that life is morally wrong.

Here's a separate sequence

1. Parents are obligated to provide for the mental, physical, social, and emotional health of their child.
2. Being called a different name actually got support from her friends, giving her social, emotional, and mental health. Her parents denied her access to it, despite the fact that conversion therapy was ultimately more harmful to her health than being accepted.
3. Leelah's parents committed child abuse.

Here's one more.
1. Not every choice is entirely rational. For example, your profile picture isn't justified on logical grounds; its merely a choice that brings you enjoyment.
2. Your enjoyment does not harm me.
3. It would be wrong for me to ask you to justify that choice, and subsequently refuse to accept it (by, say, reporting your picture and taking it down).

And yet another!

1. You have no objective logical basis for your username, and neither do I
2. We are not required to justify those usernames to others
3. People are not required to give objective logical reasons for being happy, and the fact that neither of us have put our respectives usernames to the test highlights this.
4. Your requirement that Leelah's name choice be logically justified, then, is an exception to your general way of thinking.
5. That exception must have some root.

That's the bias I am referring to.




Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.

Funny you should bring up strawmen, when my request for simple humanity was meant with one from you.

At any rate, the reason someone likes their name is because it means something to them. Perhaps walking all over that causes some negative psychological effects.


The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 3:07:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:53:11 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.

Oh okay. I understand now. That did get out of hand a bit, didn't it?

Let's run down the logical side of things.

1. Human beings are worthy of respect as rational beings.
2. The loss of a human life is subsequently tragic.
3. Valuing gender roles over that life is morally wrong.

I reject 1) not all humans are rational and so not all humans are worthy of respect. Ans 2) the loss of human life is a part of life. The level of tragedy is directly related to the individuals connection with me (or whoever is applying the measurement).

As such, 3) cannons be concluded.


Here's a separate sequence

1. Parents are obligated to provide for the mental, physical, social, and emotional health of their child.
2. Being called a different name actually got support from her friends, giving her social, emotional, and mental health. Her parents denied her access to it, despite the fact that conversion therapy was ultimately more harmful to her health than being accepted.
3. Leelah's parents committed child abuse.

Support =\= health. Being supportive of addictions is not providing help. As such, any harm that may have come from mental issues would be the fault of those that supported those issues.


Here's one more.
1. Not every choice is entirely rational. For example, your profile picture isn't justified on logical grounds; its merely a choice that brings you enjoyment.
2. Your enjoyment does not harm me.
3. It would be wrong for me to ask you to justify that choice, and subsequently refuse to accept it (by, say, reporting your picture and taking it down).

For my enjoyment is my justification.

And yet another!

1. You have no objective logical basis for your username, and neither do I
2. We are not required to justify those usernames to others
3. People are not required to give objective logical reasons for being happy, and the fact that neither of us have put our respectives usernames to the test highlights this.
4. Your requirement that Leelah's name choice be logically justified, then, is an exception to your general way of thinking.
5. That exception must have some root.

You don't know my justification or lack there of. I am also not claiming that if you call me something different then you are a hateful person.


That's the bias I am referring to.




Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.

Funny you should bring up strawmen, when my request for simple humanity was meant with one from you.

I never strawmaned you. I applied them very logic that you gave and took it to the next level to show that it is an irrational line of logic. Also called reduction to absurd.


At any rate, the reason someone likes their name is because it means something to them. Perhaps walking all over that causes some negative psychological effects.


The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 3:37:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 3:07:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:53:11 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:29:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:27:27 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:23:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:21:19 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

*Leelah. Whether you accept their gender or not, its pretty common practice to go by the names that people prefer.

I prefer the name, "Oh wise and mysterious one, bringer of peace and destruction." It is now rude of you to call me anything else. And I expect you to call out all others that rudely do not use the name I prefer.

Except that's a ridiculous strawman specifically meant to justify your prejudice.

You don't seriously carry that identity around, and you won't kill yourself if I don't call you that.

Willing to kill yourself over X does not give justification to X.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.

Oh okay. I understand now. That did get out of hand a bit, didn't it?

Let's run down the logical side of things.

1. Human beings are worthy of respect as rational beings.
2. The loss of a human life is subsequently tragic.
3. Valuing gender roles over that life is morally wrong.

I reject 1) not all humans are rational and so not all humans are worthy of respect. Ans 2) the loss of human life is a part of life. The level of tragedy is directly related to the individuals connection with me (or whoever is applying the measurement).

As such, 3) cannons be concluded.

1. Joshua/Leelah was capable of rational thought, so your points moot.
2. This is thinly veiled emotional "illogical garbage". There is no logical basis to your claim that those closer to you are more deserving of life. Plus, it's a DDO topic, on a debate site. It's officially relevant to you.
3. See above.


Here's a separate sequence

1. Parents are obligated to provide for the mental, physical, social, and emotional health of their child.
2. Being called a different name actually got support from her friends, giving her social, emotional, and mental health. Her parents denied her access to it, despite the fact that conversion therapy was ultimately more harmful to her health than being accepted.
3. Leelah's parents committed child abuse.

Support =\= health. Being supportive of addictions is not providing help. As such, any harm that may have come from mental issues would be the fault of those that supported those issues.

The chain is not Support for Idenitity ---> suicide
The chain is Lack of Parental Support ----> Being cut off from Supportive Friends ----> Mental health issues -----> suicide.

Also, the "addiction" label is irrational as well, for there is nothing to be addicted to. Is a man with a penis "Addicted" to masculine clothes? Is a girl with a vagina "addicted" to dresses? Frankly, the shape of ones genitals is an illogical measure of what is and is not addiction.



Here's one more.
1. Not every choice is entirely rational. For example, your profile picture isn't justified on logical grounds; its merely a choice that brings you enjoyment.
2. Your enjoyment does not harm me.
3. It would be wrong for me to ask you to justify that choice, and subsequently refuse to accept it (by, say, reporting your picture and taking it down).

For my enjoyment is my justification.

And that's good. That's Leelah's as well. She was harming nobody, including herself.

And yet another!

1. You have no objective logical basis for your username, and neither do I
2. We are not required to justify those usernames to others
3. People are not required to give objective logical reasons for being happy, and the fact that neither of us have put our respectives usernames to the test highlights this.
4. Your requirement that Leelah's name choice be logically justified, then, is an exception to your general way of thinking.
5. That exception must have some root.

You don't know my justification or lack there of. I am also not claiming that if you call me something different then you are a hateful person.

To quote: "For my enjoyment is my justification"

Not that it matters. Given that you're an intelligent person, I have to assume that you're missing the point on purpose. The point is that you don't need a justification any more than Leelah does. The fact that you're holding Leelah/Joshua to this standard unfairly is telling of your bias.

I also never claimed that you were hateful. I merely pointed out a potential way for you to display human kindness, in a manner that wasn't inflammatory at all. Once again: Check your bias.


That's the bias I am referring to.




Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.

Funny you should bring up strawmen, when my request for simple humanity was meant with one from you.

I never strawmaned you. I applied them very logic that you gave and took it to the next level to show that it is an irrational line of logic. Also called reduction to absurd.

Replacing one fallacy with another, I see. How rational of you. FTR, the chain was Misnaming Constantly ----> Preponderance of Psychological Stress. Your reducto ad absurdem ignored this second link, which made it into a Strawman. See below.


At any rate, the reason someone likes their name is because it means something to them. Perhaps walking all over that causes some negative psychological effects.


The fact that you would equate a part of someones identity that they would rather die than live without to your strawman is disgusting.

The fact that putting a child in solitary confinement for 5 months is being overlooked because of your differing beliefs is an atrocity.

Take a step back and evaluate your bias.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 4:03:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?

Because that is her name.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 5:30:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 3:37:12 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 3:07:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:53:11 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.

Oh okay. I understand now. That did get out of hand a bit, didn't it?

Let's run down the logical side of things.

1. Human beings are worthy of respect as rational beings.
2. The loss of a human life is subsequently tragic.
3. Valuing gender roles over that life is morally wrong.

I reject 1) not all humans are rational and so not all humans are worthy of respect. Ans 2) the loss of human life is a part of life. The level of tragedy is directly related to the individuals connection with me (or whoever is applying the measurement).

As such, 3) cannons be concluded.

1. Joshua/Leelah was capable of rational thought, so your points moot.

Quesiotnable. Choosing to kill himself shows irrational thought.

2. This is thinly veiled emotional "illogical garbage". There is no logical basis to your claim that those closer to you are more deserving of life. Plus, it's a DDO topic, on a debate site. It's officially relevant to you.

No it is not. Those that are closer to a person are more relevant to them and so the lose of that life is more significant. If my brother dies, that has more of an impact on me than if some old man in China dies. The reason it is more important to me is because he is closer to me. As such, the more removed someone is, the less important their lives are. He is so far removed, his life is meaningless to me, just as that old man in China is.

3. See above.


Here's a separate sequence

1. Parents are obligated to provide for the mental, physical, social, and emotional health of their child.
2. Being called a different name actually got support from her friends, giving her social, emotional, and mental health. Her parents denied her access to it, despite the fact that conversion therapy was ultimately more harmful to her health than being accepted.
3. Leelah's parents committed child abuse.

Support =\= health. Being supportive of addictions is not providing help. As such, any harm that may have come from mental issues would be the fault of those that supported those issues.

The chain is not Support for Idenitity ---> suicide
The chain is Lack of Parental Support ----> Being cut off from Supportive Friends ----> Mental health issues -----> suicide.

Of, the chain is Mental Health issues ----> Issues being supported by so-called friends ----> Parents attempting to get help to correct issues -----> Suicide.


Also, the "addiction" label is irrational as well, for there is nothing to be addicted to. Is a man with a penis "Addicted" to masculine clothes? Is a girl with a vagina "addicted" to dresses? Frankly, the shape of ones genitals is an illogical measure of what is and is not addiction.

I didn't say it was an addiction.




Here's one more.
1. Not every choice is entirely rational. For example, your profile picture isn't justified on logical grounds; its merely a choice that brings you enjoyment.
2. Your enjoyment does not harm me.
3. It would be wrong for me to ask you to justify that choice, and subsequently refuse to accept it (by, say, reporting your picture and taking it down).

For my enjoyment is my justification.

And that's good. That's Leelah's as well. She was harming nobody, including herself.

No, he clearly harmed himself.


And yet another!

1. You have no objective logical basis for your username, and neither do I
2. We are not required to justify those usernames to others
3. People are not required to give objective logical reasons for being happy, and the fact that neither of us have put our respectives usernames to the test highlights this.
4. Your requirement that Leelah's name choice be logically justified, then, is an exception to your general way of thinking.
5. That exception must have some root.

You don't know my justification or lack there of. I am also not claiming that if you call me something different then you are a hateful person.

To quote: "For my enjoyment is my justification"

Not that it matters. Given that you're an intelligent person, I have to assume that you're missing the point on purpose. The point is that you don't need a justification any more than Leelah does. The fact that you're holding Leelah/Joshua to this standard unfairly is telling of your bias.

Not at all. If you don't call me by my name (which you still haven't yet), I'm not claiming you are a bias person that is causing me mental anguish and as such driving me to kill myself.


I also never claimed that you were hateful. I merely pointed out a potential way for you to display human kindness, in a manner that wasn't inflammatory at all. Once again: Check your bias.

No, you called me a selfish dick with my head up my a$$, but not hateful, lol.



That's the bias I am referring to.




Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.

Funny you should bring up strawmen, when my request for simple humanity was meant with one from you.

I never strawmaned you. I applied them very logic that you gave and took it to the next level to show that it is an irrational line of logic. Also called reduction to absurd.

Replacing one fallacy with another, I see. How rational of you. FTR, the chain was Misnaming Constantly ----> Preponderance of Psychological Stress. Your reducto ad absurdem ignored this second link, which made it into a Strawman. See below.

Reduction to absurdity is not a fallacy, it is a standard form of argumentation.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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1/4/2015 5:33:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 3:54:44 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
1. I have been told that I need to feel sensitive to her parents loss. Sorry, no can do. They are terrible people and deserve every bit of pain they feel right now. Maybe someday they will realize how despicable they have been, and that they are in large part responsible for what happened to Leelah, but until then I have no sympathy for them.


2. This has sparked a national appeal for the prohibition of religious anti-gender fluid "therapy", a sign that at long last the trans and gender fluid community is stepping into the public eye. However, I cannot help but feel that the community in question lacks adequate political leadership that is necessary to achieve their goals. Until they can organize themselves behind leaders who know politics at least well enough to address national petitions to the right people (Pelosi and Reid can't do a thing, they are the wrong people from whom to seek help) and to design a petition that actually has a chance at surviving the shark-infested waters that are American Public Policy, then they will not get get anywhere. They will continue to be brushed under the rug, given temporary pacification, and ultimately ignored.


3. To all the people calling for the arrest and indictment of Abdullah Ahmed (the truck driver In front of whom Leelah cast herself), you all are a pretentious lot of ignorant malcontents who would hang the butler for the crimes of the cook. Shut your howling screamers and go pick up a book or something.

Pretty much agree with all of this. Though petitions clearly aren't the answer, material action and the question of what is to be done is difficult to figure out.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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1/4/2015 5:35:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Yer an assshole
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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1/4/2015 5:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Like this child killed herself because of rampant abuse and transphobia from her parents but Ore is more concerned with justifying personal prejudice than not being a total fucknut for one second.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 5:41:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:35:22 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Yer an assshole

We love you too.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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1/4/2015 5:41:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?

Because I value self identity over given identity.
Religion Forum Ambassador

HUFFLEPUFF FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 5:47:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:41:25 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?

Because I value self identity over given identity.

Then you will, of course, address me by my self identity presented earlier.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 5:51:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 4:03:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?

Because that is her name.

Actually, Joshua is.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/4/2015 5:53:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:30:13 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 3:37:12 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 3:07:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:53:11 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:37:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:33:44 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't give logical justification. It just makes anyone who refuses to respect it when it wouldn't harm them too a selfish dick who needs to pull their head out of their *ss.

I don't respect illogical garbage, especially when it is backed on top of appeals of emotion. Sorry, this is a debate site, not a feel good hippie convention.

Oh okay. I understand now. That did get out of hand a bit, didn't it?

Let's run down the logical side of things.

1. Human beings are worthy of respect as rational beings.
2. The loss of a human life is subsequently tragic.
3. Valuing gender roles over that life is morally wrong.

I reject 1) not all humans are rational and so not all humans are worthy of respect. Ans 2) the loss of human life is a part of life. The level of tragedy is directly related to the individuals connection with me (or whoever is applying the measurement).

As such, 3) cannons be concluded.

1. Joshua/Leelah was capable of rational thought, so your points moot.

Quesiotnable. Choosing to kill himself shows irrational thought.

Humans capable of rational thinking can be pressured into doing otherwise. This is fact.

2. This is thinly veiled emotional "illogical garbage". There is no logical basis to your claim that those closer to you are more deserving of life. Plus, it's a DDO topic, on a debate site. It's officially relevant to you.

No it is not. Those that are closer to a person are more relevant to them and so the lose of that life is more significant. If my brother dies, that has more of an impact on me than if some old man in China dies. The reason it is more important to me is because he is closer to me. As such, the more removed someone is, the less important their lives are. He is so far removed, his life is meaningless to me, just as that old man in China is.

That's subjective, emotional appeal no matter which way you slice it. Her life is still objectively important. Plus, she was extremely close to her parents...

3. See above.


Here's a separate sequence

1. Parents are obligated to provide for the mental, physical, social, and emotional health of their child.
2. Being called a different name actually got support from her friends, giving her social, emotional, and mental health. Her parents denied her access to it, despite the fact that conversion therapy was ultimately more harmful to her health than being accepted.
3. Leelah's parents committed child abuse.

Support =\= health. Being supportive of addictions is not providing help. As such, any harm that may have come from mental issues would be the fault of those that supported those issues.

The chain is not Support for Idenitity ---> suicide
The chain is Lack of Parental Support ----> Being cut off from Supportive Friends ----> Mental health issues -----> suicide.

Of, the chain is Mental Health issues ----> Issues being supported by so-called friends ----> Parents attempting to get help to correct issues -----> Suicide.
Their parents were not correcting suicidal behavior. They were "correcting" gender dysphoria. A side effect of this was suicidal, irrational thought. I'm going to call false association.


Also, the "addiction" label is irrational as well, for there is nothing to be addicted to. Is a man with a penis "Addicted" to masculine clothes? Is a girl with a vagina "addicted" to dresses? Frankly, the shape of ones genitals is an illogical measure of what is and is not addiction.

I didn't say it was an addiction.
Then it must have been a false comparison. The point is moot.




Here's one more.
1. Not every choice is entirely rational. For example, your profile picture isn't justified on logical grounds; its merely a choice that brings you enjoyment.
2. Your enjoyment does not harm me.
3. It would be wrong for me to ask you to justify that choice, and subsequently refuse to accept it (by, say, reporting your picture and taking it down).

For my enjoyment is my justification.

And that's good. That's Leelah's as well. She was harming nobody, including herself.

No, he clearly harmed himself.
Due to factors that aren't their name choice. Are you being willfully ignorant?


And yet another!

1. You have no objective logical basis for your username, and neither do I
2. We are not required to justify those usernames to others
3. People are not required to give objective logical reasons for being happy, and the fact that neither of us have put our respectives usernames to the test highlights this.
4. Your requirement that Leelah's name choice be logically justified, then, is an exception to your general way of thinking.
5. That exception must have some root.

You don't know my justification or lack there of. I am also not claiming that if you call me something different then you are a hateful person.

To quote: "For my enjoyment is my justification"

Not that it matters. Given that you're an intelligent person, I have to assume that you're missing the point on purpose. The point is that you don't need a justification any more than Leelah does. The fact that you're holding Leelah/Joshua to this standard unfairly is telling of your bias.

Not at all. If you don't call me by my name (which you still haven't yet), I'm not claiming you are a bias person that is causing me mental anguish and as such driving me to kill myself.
A better analogy would be your name meaning "smart female", and me imprisoning you while refusing to acknowledge it. Check the facts.


I also never claimed that you were hateful. I merely pointed out a potential way for you to display human kindness, in a manner that wasn't inflammatory at all. Once again: Check your bias.

No, you called me a selfish dick with my head up my a$$, but not hateful, lol.
Read my first post, then read your irrational response.








Leelah Alcorn didn't decide arbitrarily that she wanted that name. It is an inherent part of her identity. Look it as a nickname, if you must.

Names are not inherent to anything. If you are willing to kill yourself over your name, you have deeper psychological problems that need to be addressed.

You mean like gender dysphoria?

Not at all. I'm referring only to the issue that one is willing to kill themselves over a harmless name. Not the gender identity at all. But nice try at a strawman.

Funny you should bring up strawmen, when my request for simple humanity was meant with one from you.

I never strawmaned you. I applied them very logic that you gave and took it to the next level to show that it is an irrational line of logic. Also called reduction to absurd.

Replacing one fallacy with another, I see...FTR, the chain was Misnaming Constantly ----> Preponderance of Psychological Stress. Your reducto ad absurdem ignored this second link, which made it into a Strawman. See below.

Reduction to absurdity is not a fallacy, it is a standard form of argumentatio
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/4/2015 6:07:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:53:06 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/4/2015 5:30:13 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Quesiotnable. Choosing to kill himself shows irrational thought.

Humans capable of rational thinking can be pressured into doing otherwise. This is fact.

And those that engage in more irrational can be deemed worth less than those that engage in less irrational. However, we could go in circles for a long time when it comes to morals.


No it is not. Those that are closer to a person are more relevant to them and so the lose of that life is more significant. If my brother dies, that has more of an impact on me than if some old man in China dies. The reason it is more important to me is because he is closer to me. As such, the more removed someone is, the less important their lives are. He is so far removed, his life is meaningless to me, just as that old man in China is.

That's subjective, emotional appeal no matter which way you slice it. Her life is still objectively important. Plus, she was extremely close to her parents...

There is no objective value in anything, so no, it is not objectively important. And yes, he was close to his parents. But I don't speak for them.


Of, the chain is Mental Health issues ----> Issues being supported by so-called friends ----> Parents attempting to get help to correct issues -----> Suicide.
Their parents were not correcting suicidal behavior. They were "correcting" gender dysphoria. A side effect of this was suicidal, irrational thought. I'm going to call false association.

No, they were attempting to correct what they viewed as a mental disorder. Others were supporting and encouraging this "mental disorder" and it ultimately lead to suicide before it could be corrected.

I didn't say it was an addiction.
Then it must have been a false comparison. The point is moot.

I said it was "like" addiction (or could be) on a single trait only. That is a far cry from saying that it is an addiction and any attempt to further link it to addiction in non-affiliated aspects are strawman.


No, he clearly harmed himself.
Due to factors that aren't their name choice. Are you being willfully ignorant?

Not at all, it shows that there is an underlying issue. Not his gender identity, but something more. And that issue was a harm.


Not at all. If you don't call me by my name (which you still haven't yet), I'm not claiming you are a bias person that is causing me mental anguish and as such driving me to kill myself.
A better analogy would be your name meaning "smart female", and me imprisoning you while refusing to acknowledge it. Check the facts.

Mental illnesses are a terrible thing and it is sad that we cannot always help them. Of course "imprisonment" is not exactly from an unbiased source in this case. I mean, we have a teenager who hates his parents (gosh, really?) for not understanding him and his desires and describes it as "imprisonment." I know that teenagers have a history of never exaggerating.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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1/4/2015 6:27:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:47:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 5:41:25 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/4/2015 2:08:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:55:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/3/2015 7:34:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
More conversations on Joshua can be found here.

http://www.debate.org...

Why do you refer to Leelah as "him"?

Why do you refer to Joshua as Leelah?

Because I value self identity over given identity.

Then you will, of course, address me by my self identity presented earlier.

LMAO