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American Ethnic Labels

R0b1Billion
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2/2/2015 4:07:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've come to the realization that our current labels are pretty bad. I was at a Unitarian church last month listening to a Rwandan man speaking, when I had an epiphany - this man is an African-American, but we give that term out way too loosely! If Lil' Wayne is an African-American as well, I feel like we have some errors here.

A person originally from Africa who gains citizenship should be a true African-American (obviously, I'm using African as only one example that should be expanded for any ethnicity). Lil' Wayne is NOT an African-American. Saying he is does two things:

1) Fails to recognize and disrespects the true African-Americans who have a significantly-enhanced perspective and background compared to people who have lived here their whole lives. This enhanced perspective is integral in recognizing the ethos of such a person who gives a sociological argument.

2) Fails to recognize that somebody like Lil' Wayne is not significantly different than any other "normal" American. He is not somebody who deserves, whether in the positive or (more importantly) negative connotation to be separated and distinguished from the rest of normal Americans. To do so is socially damaging to him because he deserves 100% American identity, not a sub-status which infers, whether you like to admit it or not, some sort of non-genuineness.

Which brings me to my next point: the term "Native-American." What a disaster this term is.

The term "native" means "where you were born." I have no problem calling myself a native-Rhode Islander, or a Native-New Englander, but if I say I'm a Native-American I am all of a sudden out of line?

Technically, Lil' Wayne is a Native-American, not an African-American. He wasn't born in Africa, he probably doesn't know anything special about the place that most other people don't know. He simply is descended from African-Americans. Race is nothing more than skin-deep attributes: hair color and texture, skin color, and perhaps some minor shaping of the face. Race is an obsolete, dangerous, closed-minded concept. Nothing good comes from its distinction, we only keep it around because of selfishness - both by whites for sentiments of uncleanliness, and by minorities for economic advantages. It's interesting how minorities will point that out about whites, and whites will point that out about minorities, but neither group has any interest in removing the concept.

The Native-Americans of half a millenium ago are dead. They do not carry on in their ancestors, because my ancestors F*CKING SLAUGHTERED THEM. Why not admit that? Genocide is something worth pointing out, isn't it? I didn't slaughter them personally, my ancestors did. I don't take blame for it, but I also shouldn't hide that my ancestors committed that atrocity, and by continuing to fool myself that they are still here, still existing as they once did as free and living off the land undisturbed, I am hiding that atrocity. If they need to be distinguished, we can call them "descendents of American-Indians." (Of course "Native-American" will technically do here as well, but not in distinction to any other person born here).
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/25/2015 5:41:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 4:07:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I've come to the realization that our current labels are pretty bad. I was at a Unitarian church last month listening to a Rwandan man speaking, when I had an epiphany - this man is an African-American, but we give that term out way too loosely! If Lil' Wayne is an African-American as well, I feel like we have some errors here.

A person originally from Africa who gains citizenship should be a true African-American (obviously, I'm using African as only one example that should be expanded for any ethnicity). Lil' Wayne is NOT an African-American. Saying he is does two things:

1) Fails to recognize and disrespects the true African-Americans who have a significantly-enhanced perspective and background compared to people who have lived here their whole lives. This enhanced perspective is integral in recognizing the ethos of such a person who gives a sociological argument.

2) Fails to recognize that somebody like Lil' Wayne is not significantly different than any other "normal" American. He is not somebody who deserves, whether in the positive or (more importantly) negative connotation to be separated and distinguished from the rest of normal Americans. To do so is socially damaging to him because he deserves 100% American identity, not a sub-status which infers, whether you like to admit it or not, some sort of non-genuineness.

I don't think "African American" as the term is used today has much to do with Africa but you highlight some good points that racial/ethnic terms are awkwardly phrased. For instance, people don't normally call whites "European Americans" although the terms "Asian" and "Hispanic" are fairly common. I think the awkwardness mostly comes the complexity of race vs geography. Race normally refers to what continent a person's ancestors are from. Most whites have European Ancestry, blacks African ancestry, and Asians are typically either East Asians or South Asians. I agree that descriptions are arbitrary and could be better. Personally the only time I recall ever using the term "African American" is in a research paper in an African studies class I took at my university.

Which brings me to my next point: the term "Native-American." What a disaster this term is.

The term "native" means "where you were born." I have no problem calling myself a native-Rhode Islander, or a Native-New Englander, but if I say I'm a Native-American I am all of a sudden out of line?

Technically, Lil' Wayne is a Native-American, not an African-American. He wasn't born in Africa, he probably doesn't know anything special about the place that most other people don't know. He simply is descended from African-Americans. Race is nothing more than skin-deep attributes: hair color and texture, skin color, and perhaps some minor shaping of the face. Race is an obsolete, dangerous, closed-minded concept. Nothing good comes from its distinction, we only keep it around because of selfishness - both by whites for sentiments of uncleanliness, and by minorities for economic advantages. It's interesting how minorities will point that out about whites, and whites will point that out about minorities, but neither group has any interest in removing the concept.

The Native-Americans of half a millenium ago are dead. They do not carry on in their ancestors, because my ancestors F*CKING SLAUGHTERED THEM. Why not admit that? Genocide is something worth pointing out, isn't it? I didn't slaughter them personally, my ancestors did. I don't take blame for it, but I also shouldn't hide that my ancestors committed that atrocity, and by continuing to fool myself that they are still here, still existing as they once did as free and living off the land undisturbed, I am hiding that atrocity. If they need to be distinguished, we can call them "descendents of American-Indians." (Of course "Native-American" will technically do here as well, but not in distinction to any other person born here).

The most accurate term to describe the ethnic group of a Native American is to refer to their specific tribe. "Native American" is a blanket term for all tribes and groups that were here before contact with the Old World and immigration started in the 1500s. "American-Indian" is not an accurate term. In fact, it is based on the first European explorers reaching North America and mistakenly believing that they reached India. "Indians" refer to people who live in India.
R0b1Billion
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3/25/2015 7:00:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 5:41:45 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/2/2015 4:07:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I've come to the realization that our current labels are pretty bad. I was at a Unitarian church last month listening to a Rwandan man speaking, when I had an epiphany - this man is an African-American, but we give that term out way too loosely! If Lil' Wayne is an African-American as well, I feel like we have some errors here.

A person originally from Africa who gains citizenship should be a true African-American (obviously, I'm using African as only one example that should be expanded for any ethnicity). Lil' Wayne is NOT an African-American. Saying he is does two things:

1) Fails to recognize and disrespects the true African-Americans who have a significantly-enhanced perspective and background compared to people who have lived here their whole lives. This enhanced perspective is integral in recognizing the ethos of such a person who gives a sociological argument.

2) Fails to recognize that somebody like Lil' Wayne is not significantly different than any other "normal" American. He is not somebody who deserves, whether in the positive or (more importantly) negative connotation to be separated and distinguished from the rest of normal Americans. To do so is socially damaging to him because he deserves 100% American identity, not a sub-status which infers, whether you like to admit it or not, some sort of non-genuineness.

I don't think "African American" as the term is used today has much to do with Africa but you highlight some good points that racial/ethnic terms are awkwardly phrased. For instance, people don't normally call whites "European Americans" although the terms "Asian" and "Hispanic" are fairly common. I think the awkwardness mostly comes the complexity of race vs geography. Race normally refers to what continent a person's ancestors are from. Most whites have European Ancestry, blacks African ancestry, and Asians are typically either East Asians or South Asians. I agree that descriptions are arbitrary and could be better. Personally the only time I recall ever using the term "African American" is in a research paper in an African studies class I took at my university.

Which brings me to my next point: the term "Native-American." What a disaster this term is.

The term "native" means "where you were born." I have no problem calling myself a native-Rhode Islander, or a Native-New Englander, but if I say I'm a Native-American I am all of a sudden out of line?

Technically, Lil' Wayne is a Native-American, not an African-American. He wasn't born in Africa, he probably doesn't know anything special about the place that most other people don't know. He simply is descended from African-Americans. Race is nothing more than skin-deep attributes: hair color and texture, skin color, and perhaps some minor shaping of the face. Race is an obsolete, dangerous, closed-minded concept. Nothing good comes from its distinction, we only keep it around because of selfishness - both by whites for sentiments of uncleanliness, and by minorities for economic advantages. It's interesting how minorities will point that out about whites, and whites will point that out about minorities, but neither group has any interest in removing the concept.

The Native-Americans of half a millenium ago are dead. They do not carry on in their ancestors, because my ancestors F*CKING SLAUGHTERED THEM. Why not admit that? Genocide is something worth pointing out, isn't it? I didn't slaughter them personally, my ancestors did. I don't take blame for it, but I also shouldn't hide that my ancestors committed that atrocity, and by continuing to fool myself that they are still here, still existing as they once did as free and living off the land undisturbed, I am hiding that atrocity. If they need to be distinguished, we can call them "descendents of American-Indians." (Of course "Native-American" will technically do here as well, but not in distinction to any other person born here).

The most accurate term to describe the ethnic group of a Native American is to refer to their specific tribe. "Native American" is a blanket term for all tribes and groups that were here before contact with the Old World and immigration started in the 1500s. "American-Indian" is not an accurate term. In fact, it is based on the first European explorers reaching North America and mistakenly believing that they reached India. "Indians" refer to people who live in India.

Yeah "Indian" sucks for obvious reasons, but I prefer it infinitely over "Native American" for the reasons mentioned and if you add the "American" part before it at least it's unambiguous. But yeah the tribe name is good, and they like that too. Just like Koreans, Japanese, Chinese like those terms as opposed to Asian.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".
R0b1Billion
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3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Wylted
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3/25/2015 8:17:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.

I have considered moving to another country, and I don't care how dumb I look, if I move to Ireland, I'm cLling myself Irish.
R0b1Billion
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3/25/2015 10:41:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 8:17:30 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.

I have considered moving to another country, and I don't care how dumb I look, if I move to Ireland, I'm cLling myself Irish.

Well it's much more logical to, in that case, call you an American-Irishman than it is for your grandchildren to be called so 50 years from now.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
AFism
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3/25/2015 10:59:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 4:07:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I've come to the realization that our current labels are pretty bad. I was at a Unitarian church last month listening to a Rwandan man speaking, when I had an epiphany - this man is an African-American, but we give that term out way too loosely! If Lil' Wayne is an African-American as well, I feel like we have some errors here.

A person originally from Africa who gains citizenship should be a true African-American (obviously, I'm using African as only one example that should be expanded for any ethnicity). Lil' Wayne is NOT an African-American. Saying he is does two things:

1) Fails to recognize and disrespects the true African-Americans who have a significantly-enhanced perspective and background compared to people who have lived here their whole lives. This enhanced perspective is integral in recognizing the ethos of such a person who gives a sociological argument.

2) Fails to recognize that somebody like Lil' Wayne is not significantly different than any other "normal" American. He is not somebody who deserves, whether in the positive or (more importantly) negative connotation to be separated and distinguished from the rest of normal Americans. To do so is socially damaging to him because he deserves 100% American identity, not a sub-status which infers, whether you like to admit it or not, some sort of non-genuineness.

Which brings me to my next point: the term "Native-American." What a disaster this term is.

The term "native" means "where you were born." I have no problem calling myself a native-Rhode Islander, or a Native-New Englander, but if I say I'm a Native-American I am all of a sudden out of line?

Technically, Lil' Wayne is a Native-American, not an African-American. He wasn't born in Africa, he probably doesn't know anything special about the place that most other people don't know. He simply is descended from African-Americans. Race is nothing more than skin-deep attributes: hair color and texture, skin color, and perhaps some minor shaping of the face. Race is an obsolete, dangerous, closed-minded concept. Nothing good comes from its distinction, we only keep it around because of selfishness - both by whites for sentiments of uncleanliness, and by minorities for economic advantages. It's interesting how minorities will point that out about whites, and whites will point that out about minorities, but neither group has any interest in removing the concept.

The Native-Americans of half a millenium ago are dead. They do not carry on in their ancestors, because my ancestors F*CKING SLAUGHTERED THEM. Why not admit that? Genocide is something worth pointing out, isn't it? I didn't slaughter them personally, my ancestors did. I don't take blame for it, but I also shouldn't hide that my ancestors committed that atrocity, and by continuing to fool myself that they are still here, still existing as they once did as free and living off the land undisturbed, I am hiding that atrocity. If they need to be distinguished, we can call them "descendents of American-Indians." (Of course "Native-American" will technically do here as well, but not in distinction to any other person born here).

Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold on to their perceived race do economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their ace s because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you are deluded and that all of the things you are listing arePopular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

I do agree with everything else though. Not people are ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american
AFism
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3/25/2015 11:08:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, I just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold onto their perceived race for economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their race is because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you're deluded and that all of the things you are listing are popular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

I do agree with everything else though. Many people are not ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american

Sorry It's late I edited the typos.

Essentially no one wants this state of sub-personhood, this fight between invisibility and hyper-visibility just because they are labeled one thing
R0b1Billion
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3/25/2015 11:44:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 10:59:18 PM, AFism wrote:
At 2/2/2015 4:07:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I've come to the realization that our current labels are pretty bad. I was at a Unitarian church last month listening to a Rwandan man speaking, when I had an epiphany - this man is an African-American, but we give that term out way too loosely! If Lil' Wayne is an African-American as well, I feel like we have some errors here.

A person originally from Africa who gains citizenship should be a true African-American (obviously, I'm using African as only one example that should be expanded for any ethnicity). Lil' Wayne is NOT an African-American. Saying he is does two things:

1) Fails to recognize and disrespects the true African-Americans who have a significantly-enhanced perspective and background compared to people who have lived here their whole lives. This enhanced perspective is integral in recognizing the ethos of such a person who gives a sociological argument.

2) Fails to recognize that somebody like Lil' Wayne is not significantly different than any other "normal" American. He is not somebody who deserves, whether in the positive or (more importantly) negative connotation to be separated and distinguished from the rest of normal Americans. To do so is socially damaging to him because he deserves 100% American identity, not a sub-status which infers, whether you like to admit it or not, some sort of non-genuineness.

Which brings me to my next point: the term "Native-American." What a disaster this term is.

The term "native" means "where you were born." I have no problem calling myself a native-Rhode Islander, or a Native-New Englander, but if I say I'm a Native-American I am all of a sudden out of line?

Technically, Lil' Wayne is a Native-American, not an African-American. He wasn't born in Africa, he probably doesn't know anything special about the place that most other people don't know. He simply is descended from African-Americans. Race is nothing more than skin-deep attributes: hair color and texture, skin color, and perhaps some minor shaping of the face. Race is an obsolete, dangerous, closed-minded concept. Nothing good comes from its distinction, we only keep it around because of selfishness - both by whites for sentiments of uncleanliness, and by minorities for economic advantages. It's interesting how minorities will point that out about whites, and whites will point that out about minorities, but neither group has any interest in removing the concept.

The Native-Americans of half a millenium ago are dead. They do not carry on in their ancestors, because my ancestors F*CKING SLAUGHTERED THEM. Why not admit that? Genocide is something worth pointing out, isn't it? I didn't slaughter them personally, my ancestors did. I don't take blame for it, but I also shouldn't hide that my ancestors committed that atrocity, and by continuing to fool myself that they are still here, still existing as they once did as free and living off the land undisturbed, I am hiding that atrocity. If they need to be distinguished, we can call them "descendents of American-Indians." (Of course "Native-American" will technically do here as well, but not in distinction to any other person born here).

Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold on to their perceived race do economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their ace s because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you are deluded and that all of the things you are listing arePopular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

I do agree with everything else though. Not people are ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american

Well that is an argument I can respect, there is a sort of mystery about their roots they can never quite expose, and by labeling themselves poetically as "African-Americans" they can highlight their loss. The problem for me is that it's not seen as poetic!
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
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3/25/2015 11:48:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 11:08:46 PM, AFism wrote:
Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, I just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold onto their perceived race for economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their race is because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you're deluded and that all of the things you are listing are popular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

I do agree with everything else though. Many people are not ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american

Sorry It's late I edited the typos.

Essentially no one wants this state of sub-personhood, this fight between invisibility and hyper-visibility just because they are labeled one thing

... and yeah I agree, rap and all that negative sh!t is just a counter-culture, their true culture is gone. I don't sympathize all that much however, I don't have any Portugese, English, Irish, or French culture to fall back upon either, I am technically these "races" but I can barely find these countries on a map, nevermind immerse myself in their cultures (that's tongue-in-cheek for all you way-too-slow-to-get-a-joke DDOers out there).
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
AFism
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3/26/2015 9:14:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 11:48:56 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 11:08:46 PM, AFism wrote:
Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, I just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold onto their perceived race for economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their race is because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you're deluded and that all of the things you are listing are popular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

I do agree with everything else though. Many people are not ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american

Sorry It's late I edited the typos.

Essentially no one wants this state of sub-personhood, this fight between invisibility and hyper-visibility just because they are labeled one thing

... and yeah I agree, rap and all that negative sh!t is just a counter-culture, their true culture is gone. I don't sympathize all that much however, I don't have any Portugese, English, Irish, or French culture to fall back upon either, I am technically these "races" but I can barely find these countries on a map, nevermind immerse myself in their cultures (that's tongue-in-cheek for all you way-too-slow-to-get-a-joke DDOers out there).

LOL
R0b1Billion
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3/26/2015 9:17:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 6:42:55 AM, SirCrona wrote:
OP is right, you know.

Why can't everyone just respond to my threads with this? ;)
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/26/2015 1:39:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.
But immigrants are Americans. One of the misconceptions of children of immigrants is asserting themselves as "Americans" separate from immigrants. But overall, it doesn't matter if they immigrated, if their parents immigrated, or if their ancestors immigrated here. Besides the Native Americans (and I use the term to refer to people who were here before the 15th century), everyone is a descendent of immigrants.
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3/26/2015 1:48:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 10:59:18 PM, AFism wrote:

Beautiful post indeed... Nice that you have some sort of conscious, just want to clarify something for you though. "Minorities" do not hold on to their perceived race do economic advantages. The main reason black people hold onto their ace s because it is the only sense of identity they have. They have no culture, no language, no specified country (the so called african american of course). This is obviously because your ancestors stripped them away from their native language and familial ties. Please no one reply to this post and say black people have rap, twerking and reality shows because I will only respond to you and tell you you are deluded and that all of the things you are listing arePopular culture. Any who, this race is the only thing that they have left of their identity. Think about it, they have no way of tracing back their ancestry before slavery,, not unless they are lucky and have an oral history tradition etc. or take a fancy overpriced ancestry test.

There are many who are proud of their blackness.

Culture and language is distinct from race and in case I'm not how exactly you are defining culture. Saying that black Americans have no culture is wildly inaccurate. If they are American, then that's their "culture." And the language they speak would obviously be English. I think a person's sense of identity depends on the individual. You can't generalize it to all blacks and assert that their race is their only sense of identity.

I'm not going to argue that "black people have rap" as that only answers your assertion within the framework that you provided. Your premise is wrong. Your definition of what "culture" is is unclear. Your putting a blanket label on black people is racist. I debated internally for a while before using that term but I can't think of how better to describe your statement that blacks have no culture and their only sense of identity is their race.

I do agree with everything else though. Not people are ready to admit that the term american inherently means white american

There is nothing to "admit." It doesn't. To some people perhaps. Those people are known to the larger society as "racists."
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3/26/2015 1:52:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 11:48:56 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
... and yeah I agree, rap and all that negative sh!t is just a counter-culture, their true culture is gone. I don't sympathize all that much however, I don't have any Portugese, English, Irish, or French culture to fall back upon either, I am technically these "races" but I can barely find these countries on a map, nevermind immerse myself in their cultures (that's tongue-in-cheek for all you way-too-slow-to-get-a-joke DDOers out there).

Then the supposed "loss of culture" you describe isn't unique just to blacks is not worth discussing as a special case.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you associate rap with negativity but I suppose musical tastes differ. What "negative sh1t?"
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3/29/2015 11:16:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 1:39:39 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.
But immigrants are Americans. One of the misconceptions of children of immigrants is asserting themselves as "Americans" separate from immigrants. But overall, it doesn't matter if they immigrated, if their parents immigrated, or if their ancestors immigrated here. Besides the Native Americans (and I use the term to refer to people who were here before the 15th century), everyone is a descendent of immigrants.

Who cares if we're descended from immigrants? What is the relevant amount of time somebody should occupy a country until they aren't "descended from immigrants?" Do you see the relativity issues here or should I lay them out?
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- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
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3/29/2015 11:18:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 1:52:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/25/2015 11:48:56 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
... and yeah I agree, rap and all that negative sh!t is just a counter-culture, their true culture is gone. I don't sympathize all that much however, I don't have any Portugese, English, Irish, or French culture to fall back upon either, I am technically these "races" but I can barely find these countries on a map, nevermind immerse myself in their cultures (that's tongue-in-cheek for all you way-too-slow-to-get-a-joke DDOers out there).

Then the supposed "loss of culture" you describe isn't unique just to blacks is not worth discussing as a special case.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you associate rap with negativity but I suppose musical tastes differ. What "negative sh1t?"

Dude seriously? What kind of rap are you listening to?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
lamerde
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3/29/2015 11:32:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 1:39:39 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/25/2015 8:16:25 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/25/2015 7:10:49 PM, Wylted wrote:
The hyphenated crap has to go, you're either American or not. Because of my red headed relatives, I am always asked if I am Irish. I respond, no I am American. They give me a confused look and ask something stupid like, "no before that", and then I respond "there was no before that, I've been American my whole life".

That's right, such labels were pertinent in the sixteenth century but became less useful as time went on since then. Either you're an immigrant or you're a native, there is no third category.
But immigrants are Americans. One of the misconceptions of children of immigrants is asserting themselves as "Americans" separate from immigrants. But overall, it doesn't matter if they immigrated, if their parents immigrated, or if their ancestors immigrated here. Besides the Native Americans (and I use the term to refer to people who were here before the 15th century), everyone is a descendent of immigrants.

The problem is that those who are immigrants from White/European countries are not perceived the same way as those from non-White/European countries. We can say all we want "we are all immigrants" but are White people constantly asked "Where are you from?" (Though Rob's example is a case I've never really heard before, there are other stereotypes associated with "that kind" of White.)

Anyway... I totes agree with the OP. It's fascinating and complicated, indeed.
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3/29/2015 11:43:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/29/2015 11:16:26 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Who cares if we're descended from immigrants? What is the relevant amount of time somebody should occupy a country until they aren't "descended from immigrants?" Do you see the relativity issues here or should I lay them out?

Personally, I don't see any objection to referring to the ethnic groups/tribes as "Native Americans." It is a reference to a race/ethnicity, not nationality. A person's race or ethnicity is roughly corelated to the continent they are descended from whether it be Asia, Africa, or Europe. Some racial/ethnic groups have descended from those who were in North America so we refer to them as Native Americans. It is not a description of their nationality but of their ancestral origin.

When describing nationality, people in America are called "Americans" whether they are born here or immigrated here so I don't really see a point in delineating Americans as "native" or "non-native." If you are referring to non-citizens, people on temporary visa, then "citizen" would be a better descriptor than "native."
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3/29/2015 11:47:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I appreciate that you say "Native" refers to where you were born. That's not the only definition though. Wikipedia has two definitions of "native:"

1. Jus soli, a citizen by right of birth in the territory of a state
2. Indigenous peoples

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So, it is not a huge issue for me to use the second definition. Indian is a much less accurate term since you are calling them by the nationality of a country they have absolutely no link, have never been to, and probably have never heard of. "American-Indian" I suppose is marginally more accurate but still suffers the same problems.
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3/29/2015 11:50:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/29/2015 11:32:55 PM, lamerde wrote:

The problem is that those who are immigrants from White/European countries are not perceived the same way as those from non-White/European countries. We can say all we want "we are all immigrants" but are White people constantly asked "Where are you from?" (Though Rob's example is a case I've never really heard before, there are other stereotypes associated with "that kind" of White.)

Perceived by whom? You use the passive voice here and don't mention who is doing this perceiving. That's important to the discussion. More important than the "perceived." Who is doing the asking? If what you say is true, then the flaw lies with those people.
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3/29/2015 11:55:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/29/2015 11:50:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/29/2015 11:32:55 PM, lamerde wrote:

The problem is that those who are immigrants from White/European countries are not perceived the same way as those from non-White/European countries. We can say all we want "we are all immigrants" but are White people constantly asked "Where are you from?" (Though Rob's example is a case I've never really heard before, there are other stereotypes associated with "that kind" of White.)

Perceived by whom? You use the passive voice here and don't mention who is doing this perceiving. That's important to the discussion. More important than the "perceived." Who is doing the asking? If what you say is true, then the flaw lies with those people.

Perceived by the dominant American society, i.e., White Americans.

Anyone can theoretically do the asking, but generally, it's White people asking people of colour "Where are you from?" As a person of colour, you could have a perfect local accent and still be asked "Where are you from?" (followed up with "But your English is so good!")

In Canada, White Americans (who don't have noticeable accents) are never made to feel like "other", and people don't ask where they're from in an unsolicited manner. You could be a person of colour, whose family has been living in Canada for 3 or more generations and still get asked that question.

Basically, in North America, "White" is seen as the true definition of American or Canadian, while everyone else, regardless of how long they've been here, are seen as other.
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3/30/2015 12:09:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/29/2015 11:55:08 PM, lamerde wrote:
Perceived by the dominant American society, i.e., White Americans.

Anyone can theoretically do the asking, but generally, it's White people asking people of colour "Where are you from?" As a person of colour, you could have a perfect local accent and still be asked "Where are you from?" (followed up with "But your English is so good!")

In Canada, White Americans (who don't have noticeable accents) are never made to feel like "other", and people don't ask where they're from in an unsolicited manner. You could be a person of colour, whose family has been living in Canada for 3 or more generations and still get asked that question.

Basically, in North America, "White" is seen as the true definition of American or Canadian, while everyone else, regardless of how long they've been here, are seen as other.

I don't agree with your notion of "dominance" nor do I think people can be categorized into races, and separated into "dominant" and "non-dominant." American society is ethnically and economically diverse and contains people from all races and walks of life. No one is more *representative* of "American society" than anyone else.

Some people ask because they want to know where you live. For instance, if you grew up in San Francisco, then you tell that person so. Some people are ignorant and may not understand that not all Americans are white. I call those people "racists," and I think the majority of society realizes this as well. Racism is becoming less and less acceptable throughout the history of the United States.

I'm assuming you are Canadian or British based on how you spell "color" and your reference to non-whites as "people of colour" which is an odd term. I don't know the cultural norms there so I can't comment.

The people who made you feel like "other" are racists who you probably shouldn't bother interacting with. Why do the actions of some racist people reflect on a nation as a whole?

I don't really care if someone has an accent or not, nor where their families are from.

You are again using the passive voice. "White is seen as the true definition of American" rather than "Some White Americans and Canadians are racist and believe that to be American or Canadian, you must be White." In using the passive voice, you are subconsciously giving a voice of authority to these racists and assuming their opinions to be mainstream. They have no such authority, nor should we assume that they do.
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3/30/2015 12:16:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 12:09:03 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/29/2015 11:55:08 PM, lamerde wrote:
Perceived by the dominant American society, i.e., White Americans.

Anyone can theoretically do the asking, but generally, it's White people asking people of colour "Where are you from?" As a person of colour, you could have a perfect local accent and still be asked "Where are you from?" (followed up with "But your English is so good!")

In Canada, White Americans (who don't have noticeable accents) are never made to feel like "other", and people don't ask where they're from in an unsolicited manner. You could be a person of colour, whose family has been living in Canada for 3 or more generations and still get asked that question.

Basically, in North America, "White" is seen as the true definition of American or Canadian, while everyone else, regardless of how long they've been here, are seen as other.

I don't agree with your notion of "dominance" nor do I think people can be categorized into races, and separated into "dominant" and "non-dominant." American society is ethnically and economically diverse and contains people from all races and walks of life. No one is more *representative* of "American society" than anyone else.

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague but this caught my eye. You don't believe there is a dominant culture in the US?

Some people ask because they want to know where you live. For instance, if you grew up in San Francisco, then you tell that person so. Some people are ignorant and may not understand that not all Americans are white. I call those people "racists," and I think the majority of society realizes this as well. Racism is becoming less and less acceptable throughout the history of the United States.

I'm assuming you are Canadian or British based on how you spell "color" and your reference to non-whites as "people of colour" which is an odd term. I don't know the cultural norms there so I can't comment.

The people who made you feel like "other" are racists who you probably shouldn't bother interacting with. Why do the actions of some racist people reflect on a nation as a whole?

I don't really care if someone has an accent or not, nor where their families are from.

You are again using the passive voice. "White is seen as the true definition of American" rather than "Some White Americans and Canadians are racist and believe that to be American or Canadian, you must be White." In using the passive voice, you are subconsciously giving a voice of authority to these racists and assuming their opinions to be mainstream. They have no such authority, nor should we assume that they do.

I think some of this reasoning is naive and kind of pie-in-the-sky idealism. There is the US as it should be, and then there's the US as it is. People of color generally live firmly in the latter.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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lamerde
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3/30/2015 12:22:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 12:09:03 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

I don't agree with your notion of "dominance" nor do I think people can be categorized into races, and separated into "dominant" and "non-dominant." American society is ethnically and economically diverse and contains people from all races and walks of life. No one is more *representative* of "American society" than anyone else.

Whether or not you agree with the idea of dominant groups has nothing to do with facts or evidence.

Fact - Whites in North America are the majority.
Fact - Whites in North America hold the majority of political power and social and economic capital.
Fact - We are bombarded with messages of White as the norm, and I could link you to 1000 studies showing this (or you could just Google it).

That last sentence there is naught but a dream - it should be the case that no one is more representative of America than another. But that is not the reality.

Some people ask because they want to know where you live. For instance, if you grew up in San Francisco, then you tell that person so. Some people are ignorant and may not understand that not all Americans are white. I call those people "racists," and I think the majority of society realizes this as well. Racism is becoming less and less acceptable throughout the history of the United States.

Sure, I could respond with "I am from Toronto", which would be followed up with "Where are you really from?" It's nice that you want to give people the benefit of the doubt but it's just not reality.

I'm assuming you are Canadian or British based on how you spell "color" and your reference to non-whites as "people of colour" which is an odd term. I don't know the cultural norms there so I can't comment.

https://www.youtube.com...

I choose to use the term "people of colour" to refer to non-Whites, because the term "non-White" orients "White" as the focus.

The people who made you feel like "other" are racists who you probably shouldn't bother interacting with. Why do the actions of some racist people reflect on a nation as a whole?

Individualizing racism is insidious, as it erases the fact that racism is kind of a normal reaction to societal ills and structural inequality. I really hate when people talk about "racists" as if they are some fringe group that nobody takes seriously. Nobody thinks they are racist. I can link you to a study that shows belief in this makes people exhibit more subtle discriminatory behaviours if you want.

I don't really care if someone has an accent or not, nor where their families are from.

Cool.

You are again using the passive voice. "White is seen as the true definition of American" rather than "Some White Americans and Canadians are racist and believe that to be American or Canadian, you must be White." In using the passive voice, you are subconsciously giving a voice of authority to these racists and assuming their opinions to be mainstream. They have no such authority, nor should we assume that they do.

Refer to my statements above about redefining racist in such a way that it's somehow a rare boogeyman. White is seen as the true definition of American or Canadian by most Whites (and even some people of colour).
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3/30/2015 12:23:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 12:16:21 AM, Maikuru wrote:
I've been avoiding this thread like the plague but this caught my eye. You don't believe there is a dominant culture in the US?

I think there are some things that the majority of Americans do - certain sports/music etc. I don't think it is as simple as dividing America by race, and calling the ethnic majority a "dominant culture" or in some way more representative of the US than other races/ethnicities. It doesn't matter that there are more of a certain race of people than others. It is not a winner-takes-all scenario. There is plenty of overlap between cultures as well.

I think some of this reasoning is naive and kind of pie-in-the-sky idealism. There is the US as it should be, and then there's the US as it is. People of color generally live firmly in the latter.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm saying that people who ask non-whites "where are you from" are ignorant/misguided. I haven't proposed any sort of plan so I don't get how idealism or realism even apply here.
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3/30/2015 12:31:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Some of the replies in this thread are cringe-worthy with how naive they are. :/ Good lord.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
lamerde
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3/30/2015 12:37:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 12:23:56 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm saying that people who ask non-whites "where are you from" are ignorant/misguided. I haven't proposed any sort of plan so I don't get how idealism or realism even apply here.

You simultaneously use the term "non-White" (which assumes White as a norm that everyone else is deviating from) and say there is no dominant American culture - you don't see the problem here?
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