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The Feminist Version of Reality

The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 12:12:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

The Feminist Version of Reality


Intro
This thread is simply a continuation of an argument between me and Otokage which is becoming derailed from the feminist Sing Scream thread. But I think it may be relevant interesting to those who are interested in gender issues and irrelevant to those who are not.
http://www.debate.org...

Feminist scream singers humans too
Otokage:: Since those singers[Feminist scream singers] are humans, and they are part of a feminist group, I presume they intend to transmit something, and thus I do the interpretative effort of understanding what.

The Fool: You're using words such as" since", and "thus", which presume a rational inference.. A philosophical inference in fact. The very problem here is the very problem in feminism theory, we're way too much is being presumed by those with the general anger towards men, and that's the problem begins.

Otokage:: I don't know any feminist that is "generaly angry" towards men, nor is feminism about being angry with men.

The Fool:, The worst argument you can give is from personal experience. As there is no way for me to know if what you say is true. In other words its infallible, that is, no one could know this but you.. And so why would you bother saying that at all. I mean I can sit here and tell you my personal experiences with feminist, but clearly you would assume that I was being bias.. And that's the difference between me and you, it's a matter of integrity.

Justified Anger
If you feel that you've been oppressed or being oppressed, or there are injustices being actively committed against you, it is only human to feel angry toward your oppressors. That's common sense.. It's okay to be angry, the question is to what extent is it justified, and does that anger, rationally match the degree of the injustice permitted against you.. To flat-out deny that fact, is in intellectual, dishonesty..
By intellectual dishonesty, I mean, you are not putting very much thought it, and perhaps are being willfully ignorant of the fact that there is a general anger towards men.

All the major writers, for feminist theory, had a general anger towards men and it comes out in their writing. No educated academic feminist would even deny that. The women's movement is born out of anger, for what they consider to be in equities injustice. As far as philosophies concerned, you're simply outclassed here..

Otokage:: I'm a feminist and I'm not angry with men, I'm not even agry with you despite your pedantic arguments.

The Fool: Again the WORST argument you can give.


Firstly

1. give an example of how my arguments are pedantic? You hardly answer anything I ask of you, and I answer everything you ask.. That's the difference.


Secondly

P 1. You consider what you think to be the [current] concept of masculinity to generally be inferior to the concept of femininity. In other words, you discourage it because you think its oppressive to Feminists.

P 2 And if men are generally masculine, then you have a general dislike, that is, a misandrous view of men.

C 1 You Really Do consider the feminist version of the current construct masculinity to be a bad thing, and that this masculine men are generally malicious and that men need to be CHANGED, and not woman, therefore you really do have a generalized dislike, towards men..
QED.

Against The Ideologist

MRA all day!!

( To be continued)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 12:13:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Forgot this.!!!!

<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 12:42:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Feminist Version Of Reality
Part 2

I ain't mad at ya!

"I feel that "man-hating" is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.""Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

"And let"s put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are oppressed, too, by sexism"the lie that there can be such a thing as "men"s liberation groups." Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group, specifically because of a "threatening" characteristic shared by the latter group"skin, color, sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed ****ED UP by being masters, but those masters are not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism"the oppressed have no alternative"for they have no power but to fight. In the long run, Women"s Liberation will of course free men"but in the short run it"s going to cost men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women"kill your fathers, not your mothers"."Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine editor

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.""Andrea Dworkin

"Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman.""Andrea Dworkin

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination.""Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women

"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.""Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.""Sheila Jeffrys

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.""Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women " he can sexually molest his daughters " THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE.""Marilyn French, author and adviser to Al Gore"s presidential campaign (her emphasis)

"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don"t even need to shrug. I simply don"t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don"t matter.""Marilyn French, The Woman"s Room

"All men are rapists and that"s all they are.""Marilyn French

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations " obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign.""Marilyn French

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He"s just incapable of it.""Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan

"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, "hate in love," for the men women share their lives with"husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers.""Judith Levine, My Enemy, My love

"All men are good for is ****ing, and running over with a truck.""Statement made by a University of Maine feminist administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the university in the amount of $600,000.Dinsmore had protested the quote, was dismissed thereafter on the grounds of harassment, and responded by bringing suit against the university.

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men.""Elizabeth Cady Stanton

From A Feminist Dictionary, edited by Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:

MALE: " represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants " the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.

MAN: " an obsolete life form " an ordinary creature who needs to be watched " a contradictory baby-man"

Against the Ideologist

In fact many of these academic Feminist downright HATE men.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 12:46:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Link for Previous Quotes
http://honeybadgerbrigade.com...

Oh there's lots more.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Otokage
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2/5/2015 3:45:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh please, not another thread. It really wasn't necessary. Btw some things those women said have a lot of sense. I agree with:

"Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." <- It is clear that if we live on a system that promotes domination of men over women, women will be less secured against any kind of action, and men will sadly be more susceptible of commiting those actions.

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations " obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." <- Apart from the fancy way of saying it, I agree with her that again we live on a system that isn"t helping to prevent those kind of things. We look independently at the problem, while somehow we don"t realize we have a flawed system that tries to force on us the dominating male concept, and the victim female concept, as standards. We have reached a point in which being called a "girl" is a insult, but being called "a man", is a pride.

The most important thing I think we need to focus on, is this one:

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men.""Elizabeth Cady Stanton

...

Just kiddin.
Daltonian
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2/5/2015 4:07:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Feminism is really just the advocacy of equal rights for women. Feminism doesn't state that men and women are totally and utterly equal in everything they do; our bodies and capabilities are slightly different, making us slightly unequal in different aspects of everyday life.

However, in the field of economics and wages, law, and society, men and women deserve equal rights, respect, and opportunities. Feminism simply advocates this concept. Making it out to be anything more would be realistically misleading keeping the definition of the term in mind. Being a feminist is also not exclusive; you can also advocate men's rights and be a feminist simultaneously. In this regard, I could describe myself as a feminist, but I could also describe myself as a masculinist, whilst making perfect logical sense. Feminism is advocating equal rights for women, not "WOMEN ARE ALL THAT'S IMPORTANT CAUSE WE IS FEMINIST AND MEN ARE DUMB!!"

That being said, there are a LOT of alleged 'feminists' on the internet who are in reality, frustrated teenage girls/young women who are venting their frustrations about the state of society against men and/or conservative people with ideals that are more reminiscent of misandry than of feminism as intended by actual suffragettes who fought for *real* development and increased respect towards women within society. Do not assume that feminism is something that it isn't because a lot of dumb people claim to be feminists. I'd proudly call myself a feminist, and I am male.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
ford_prefect
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2/5/2015 5:15:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 4:07:05 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Feminism is really just the advocacy of equal rights for women. Feminism doesn't state that men and women are totally and utterly equal in everything they do; our bodies and capabilities are slightly different, making us slightly unequal in different aspects of everyday life.

Disclaimer: I am neither an MRA nor a feminist.

That being said, I am very interested in the seeming contradiction between the acceptance of the fact that men and women have unequal bodies and hormones, and advocating for "gender-blind" treatment in everyday life. What are your thoughts on this?

For example, men are physically faster and more powerful than women. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense that colleges would fund and support men's sports more than women's sports, because it is more entertaining to watch higher level athletes. So why is it that some people support Title IX?

On the other hand, women are better at breastfeeding than men. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense for a company to give maternity leave but not paternity leave. So why do some people want companies to give paternity leave?
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 5:24:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 4:07:05 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Feminism is really just the advocacy of equal rights for women. Feminism doesn't state that men and women are totally and utterly equal in everything they do; our bodies and capabilities are slightly different, making us slightly unequal in different aspects of everyday life.

However, in the field of economics and wages, law, and society, men and women deserve equal rights, respect, and opportunities. Feminism simply advocates this concept. Making it out to be anything more would be realistically misleading keeping the definition of the term in mind. Being a feminist is also not exclusive; you can also advocate men's rights and be a feminist simultaneously. In this regard, I could describe myself as a feminist, but I could also describe myself as a masculinist, whilst making perfect logical sense. Feminism is advocating equal rights for women, not "WOMEN ARE ALL THAT'S IMPORTANT CAUSE WE IS FEMINIST AND MEN ARE DUMB!!"

That being said, there are a LOT of alleged 'feminists' on the internet who are in reality, frustrated teenage girls/young women who are venting their frustrations about the state of society against men and/or conservative people with ideals that are more reminiscent of misandry than of feminism as intended by actual suffragettes who fought for *real* development and increased respect towards women within society. Do not assume that feminism is something that it isn't because a lot of dumb people claim to be feminists. I'd proudly call myself a feminist, and I am male.

The Fool:, I mostly referring to the feminism which exist in the world, not the dictionary definition, or the ideal of some feminist, but the real and existing feminism, where people exist as well.

Are there any of my claims and or arguments that you disagree with?

If so, quote the argument and or claim and give the counterargument or state why what I said is not true.

Fair?

Against The Ideologist

Feminism and feminist are to be judged by their actions, not simply by their words or ideals.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 5:27:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 3:45:53 PM, Otokage wrote:
Oh please, not another thread. It really wasn't necessary. Btw some things those women said have a lot of sense. I agree with:

"Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." <- It is clear that if we live on a system that promotes domination of men over women, women will be less secured against any kind of action, and men will sadly be more susceptible of commiting those actions.

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations " obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." <- Apart from the fancy way of saying it, I agree with her that again we live on a system that isn"t helping to prevent those kind of things. We look independently at the problem, while somehow we don"t realize we have a flawed system that tries to force on us the dominating male concept, and the victim female concept, as standards. We have reached a point in which being called a "girl" is a insult, but being called "a man", is a pride.

The most important thing I think we need to focus on, is this one:

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men.""Elizabeth Cady Stanton

...

Just kiddin.

The Fool: The demonstration here that feminist, for the most part, are generally angry. And that feminist theory has generally been written in anger.

Are you telling me that feminist who go around colliding into men on the street, or take amongst themselves take pictures of men on the bus, or costly trying to free men as evil rapist, are not at least somewhat angry at men. You are in denial.

Are you now saying that feminist are not angry at men at all?

Against The Ideologist

Religious denial.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Otokage
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2/5/2015 5:39:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 5:27:31 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/5/2015 3:45:53 PM, Otokage wrote:
Oh please, not another thread. It really wasn't necessary. Btw some things those women said have a lot of sense. I agree with:

"Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." <- It is clear that if we live on a system that promotes domination of men over women, women will be less secured against any kind of action, and men will sadly be more susceptible of commiting those actions.

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations " obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." <- Apart from the fancy way of saying it, I agree with her that again we live on a system that isn"t helping to prevent those kind of things. We look independently at the problem, while somehow we don"t realize we have a flawed system that tries to force on us the dominating male concept, and the victim female concept, as standards. We have reached a point in which being called a "girl" is a insult, but being called "a man", is a pride.

The most important thing I think we need to focus on, is this one:

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men.""Elizabeth Cady Stanton

...

Just kiddin.

The Fool: The demonstration here that feminist, for the most part, are generally angry. And that feminist theory has generally been written in anger.

Are you telling me that feminist who go around colliding into men on the street, or take amongst themselves take pictures of men on the bus, or costly trying to free men as evil rapist, are not at least somewhat angry at men. You are in denial.

Are you now saying that feminist are not angry at men at all?

Against The Ideologist

Religious denial.

As I have said, I don't know any feminist angry at men. But if you say there are self-proclaimed feminists that also self-proclaim hatred towards men in general, whether oppresors or not. Then so be it, I'm willing to accept some feminists are idiots. So? Again I don't care about feminists, or communists, or islamists, or capitalists. On the other hand I care about feminism, communism, islam and capitalism. Do you get the point?

And just for the record and before you want to accuse me of deffending what can not be defended: yes some of the commentaries you have quoted from supposed feminists are indeed offensive towards men. But I'm a feminist and I would never say such things, so I don't think the ideology gets damaged by that.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 5:47:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The feminist reality
Part 4

At least, I don't see any man here jumping to aid you on your arguments.

The Fool: and that's really lost.. Most men know that they're going to be bashed if they speak up..
Part of the stereotype that harms men is that men are not allowed to complain, because that means something's wrong with them..

That is, when a woman complains, it's more likely to be attributed to her environment, when a man complains we are more likely to blame it on him.. That's the difference. And you and feminists generally perpetuate the stereotype.

That is they are more interested in getting rid of the stereotype that harm women, but generally unfortunately or inadvertently encourage and perpetuate the stereotype that harm men. For example like us being chivalrous but the same time, advocating for equality. If there was to be equal and then that are still supposed to be chivalrous, as you think you're being, then that the net are being supported"

It's okay to be angry, the question is to what extent is it justified, and does that anger, rationally match the degree of the injustice permitted against you.. To flat-out deny that fact, is in intellectual, dishonesty..

By intellectual dishonesty, I mean, you are not putting very much thought it, and perhaps are being willfully ignorant of the fact that there is a general anger towards men.

Otokage::: Now is when you make an ad hominem about a woman angry with men, and try to make us think this justifies your "feminism means being angry at men" idea.

The Fool: And ad hominem is when you insult somebody, as a substitute, for an argument..

Such as you are as sexist, therefore what you say is not true.. Just because your sexist, doesn't mean that what you say is not true.

That's what ad hominem is..

You're welcome..

<(8D)


All the major writers, for feminist theory, had a general anger towards men and it comes out in their writing. No educated academic feminist would even deny that. The women's movement is born out of anger, for what they consider to be in equities injustice. As far as philosophies concerned, you're simply outclassed here.


Otokage:: Bang. And still not one attack to feminism as an ideology, because you clearly can't find the "anger towards men" component you need to find in order to label the ideology as sexist.

The Fool: I've been doing nothing but attacking it approaches, and giving examples and articles of sexist inherent with in feminist methodology. You don't know what you're talking about.

A willful ignorance

Against The Ideologist

Bank. Bang"

http://media.giphy.com...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 5:54:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 5:15:25 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 2/5/2015 4:07:05 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Feminism is really just the advocacy of equal rights for women. Feminism doesn't state that men and women are totally and utterly equal in everything they do; our bodies and capabilities are slightly different, making us slightly unequal in different aspects of everyday life.

Disclaimer: I am neither an MRA nor a feminist.

That being said, I am very interested in the seeming contradiction between the acceptance of the fact that men and women have unequal bodies and hormones, and advocating for "gender-blind" treatment in everyday life. What are your thoughts on this?

For example, men are physically faster and more powerful than women. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense that colleges would fund and support men's sports more than women's sports, because it is more entertaining to watch higher level athletes. So why is it that some people support Title IX?

On the other hand, women are better at breastfeeding than men. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense for a company to give maternity leave but not paternity leave. So why do some people want companies to give paternity leave?

The Fool: Because it's not always the case, that the mother decides to stay home, sometimes the father. Secondly our society generally, disfavors fathers and promotes single motherhood, by making it much more easy for women to simply divorce and still get all the money, and or live off welfare, which of course is still being paid through the taxes men...

A woman just have to say that she feels afraid.. Whether she is in danger or not, there's your divorce, and full custody, with no custody to the father. And the father pays for the rest of his life for family he does not even have access too..

Against The Ideologist

And this is all done legally., That is its legally acceptable to do this. The highest rate of suicide in males is after men have been divorced in this very way.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:06:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fixed

*The Fool: It's the minority view but it's growing really FAST..Most men know that they're going to be bashed if they speak up.. It considered unmanly and whiney, if men speak up about gender issues that concern them.

Part of the stereotype that harms men is that men are not allowed to complain, because that means something's wrong with them..

That is, when a woman complains, it's more likely to be attributed to her environment, when a man complains we are more likely to blame it on him.. That's the difference. And you and feminists generally perpetuate the stereotype.

That is they are more interested in getting rid of the stereotype that harm women, but generally unfortunately or inadvertently encourage and perpetuate the stereotype that harm men. For example like us being chivalrous but the same time, advocating for equality. If there was to be equally and then men are still supposed to be chivalrous, as you think you're being, then then the net outcome is male subordination.


*Feminist are saying they don't want to be saved, but then asking you to save them.
<(8D) Don't get me wrong I am not anti-feminist I am anti-sexist feminist as yourself. You have SEVERE internalized misandry. AKA Mangina virus. .
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:07:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.debate.org...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Otokage
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2/5/2015 6:07:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 5:47:35 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The feminist reality
Part 4

At least, I don't see any man here jumping to aid you on your arguments.

The Fool: and that's really lost.. Most men know that they're going to be bashed if they speak up..
Part of the stereotype that harms men is that men are not allowed to complain, because that means something's wrong with them..

That is, when a woman complains, it's more likely to be attributed to her environment, when a man complains we are more likely to blame it on him.. That's the difference. And you and feminists generally perpetuate the stereotype.

That is they are more interested in getting rid of the stereotype that harm women, but generally unfortunately or inadvertently encourage and perpetuate the stereotype that harm men. For example like us being chivalrous but the same time, advocating for equality. If there was to be equal and then that are still supposed to be chivalrous, as you think you're being, then that the net are being supported"

It's okay to be angry, the question is to what extent is it justified, and does that anger, rationally match the degree of the injustice permitted against you.. To flat-out deny that fact, is in intellectual, dishonesty..

By intellectual dishonesty, I mean, you are not putting very much thought it, and perhaps are being willfully ignorant of the fact that there is a general anger towards men.

Otokage::: Now is when you make an ad hominem about a woman angry with men, and try to make us think this justifies your "feminism means being angry at men" idea.

The Fool: And ad hominem is when you insult somebody, as a substitute, for an argument..

Such as you are as sexist, therefore what you say is not true.. Just because your sexist, doesn't mean that what you say is not true.

That's what ad hominem is..

You're welcome..

<(8D)

Attacking an ideology by attacking a self-proclaimed follower of that ideology, is also an ad hominem.

You are welcome too.

All the major writers, for feminist theory, had a general anger towards men and it comes out in their writing. No educated academic feminist would even deny that. The women's movement is born out of anger, for what they consider to be in equities injustice. As far as philosophies concerned, you're simply outclassed here.


Otokage:: Bang. And still not one attack to feminism as an ideology, because you clearly can't find the "anger towards men" component you need to find in order to label the ideology as sexist.

The Fool: I've been doing nothing but attacking it approaches, and giving examples and articles of sexist inherent with in feminist methodology. You don't know what you're talking about.

A willful ignorance

Against The Ideologist

Bank. Bang"

http://media.giphy.com...
Otokage
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2/5/2015 6:14:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:06:27 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Fixed

*The Fool: It's the minority view but it's growing really FAST..Most men know that they're going to be bashed if they speak up.. It considered unmanly and whiney, if men speak up about gender issues that concern them.

Part of the stereotype that harms men is that men are not allowed to complain, because that means something's wrong with them..

That is, when a woman complains, it's more likely to be attributed to her environment, when a man complains we are more likely to blame it on him.. That's the difference. And you and feminists generally perpetuate the stereotype.

That is they are more interested in getting rid of the stereotype that harm women, but generally unfortunately or inadvertently encourage and perpetuate the stereotype that harm men. For example like us being chivalrous but the same time, advocating for equality. If there was to be equally and then men are still supposed to be chivalrous, as you think you're being, then then the net outcome is male subordination.


I'm chivalrous with everyone as a general rule.

*Some feminist are saying they don't want to be saved, but then asking you to save them.

I fixed that for you.

<(8D) Don't get me wrong I am not anti-feminist I am anti-sexist feminist as yourself.

I'm what!? How dare you?

You have SEVERE internalized misandry. AKA Mangina virus. .

And yet I've never done a thread bashing men. You did like 10 bashing women in... 2 days? Hell I've never done a thread bashing any group in particular... I guess you are not only a sexist, but an intolerant person in general.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:24:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The feminist reality
Part 5


Otokage::: Now is when you make an ad hominem about a woman angry with men, and try to make us think this justifies your "feminism means being angry at men" idea.

The Fool: And ad hominem is when you insult somebody, as a substitute, for an argument..

Such as you are as sexist, therefore what you say is not true.. Just because your sexist, doesn't mean that what you say is not true.

That's what ad hominem is..

You're welcome..

<(8D)

Attacking an ideology by attacking a self-proclaimed follower of that ideology, is also an ad hominem.

The Fool: If what you said what true that would be a straw man. But my argument is legit because you are a symptom of the Ideology which suggest there is something pathological to humanity about the Ideology itself. Right?
http://37.media.tumblr.com...

Against The Ideologist

And 1
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:29:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:14:44 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:06:27 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Fixed

*The Fool: It's the minority view but it's growing really FAST..Most men know that they're going to be bashed if they speak up.. It considered unmanly and whiney, if men speak up about gender issues that concern them.

Part of the stereotype that harms men is that men are not allowed to complain, because that means something's wrong with them..

That is, when a woman complains, it's more likely to be attributed to her environment, when a man complains we are more likely to blame it on him.. That's the difference. And you and feminists generally perpetuate the stereotype.

That is they are more interested in getting rid of the stereotype that harm women, but generally unfortunately or inadvertently encourage and perpetuate the stereotype that harm men. For example like us being chivalrous but the same time, advocating for equality. If there was to be equally and then men are still supposed to be chivalrous, as you think you're being, then then the net outcome is male subordination.


I'm chivalrous with everyone as a general rule.

*Some feminist are saying they don't want to be saved, but then asking you to save them.

I fixed that for you.

<(8D) Don't get me wrong I am not anti-feminist I am anti-sexist feminist as yourself.

I'm what!? How dare you?

You have SEVERE internalized misandry. AKA Mangina virus. .

And yet I've never done a thread bashing men.

The Fool: I don't think there's been a thread were you haven't bashed men, I will pilot the evidence, in the hate speech thread.. Gimme some time

Otokage:10 bashing women in...
2 days?

The Fool: Can you give me one example of where I bashed women as a class.. You realize woman does not equal feminist, Right?? When you're speaking on behalf of women, you're not a woman, nor do you have the right to speak on behalf of all woman. And I'm very careful to not speak on behalf of all men. That's the difference..

Otokage: Hell I've never done a thread bashing any group in particular... I guess you are not only a sexist, but an intolerant person in general.

The Fool: No, you are really sexist, the very fact that you think that, men have created and are solely responsible for creating a society, with some kind of intention, or even inadvertently to oppress women, is sexist in nature.

Against The Ideologist


The winning difference..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Otokage
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2/5/2015 6:31:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:24:50 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The feminist reality
Part 5


Otokage::: Now is when you make an ad hominem about a woman angry with men, and try to make us think this justifies your "feminism means being angry at men" idea.

The Fool: And ad hominem is when you insult somebody, as a substitute, for an argument..

Such as you are as sexist, therefore what you say is not true.. Just because your sexist, doesn't mean that what you say is not true.

That's what ad hominem is..

You're welcome..

<(8D)

Attacking an ideology by attacking a self-proclaimed follower of that ideology, is also an ad hominem.

The Fool: If what you said what true that would be a straw man.

No.

But my argument is legit because you are a symptom of the Ideology which suggest there is something pathological to humanity about the Ideology itself. Right?
http://37.media.tumblr.com...

Against The Ideologist

And 1

Honestly I think the case is closed lol
Otokage
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2/5/2015 6:33:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:29:42 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: No, you are really sexist, the very fact that you think that, men have created and are solely responsible for creating a society, with some kind of intention, or even inadvertently to oppress women, is sexist in nature.

Against The Ideologist


The winning difference..

That's a straw man.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:36:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:33:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:29:42 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: No, you are really sexist, the very fact that you think that, men have created and are solely responsible for creating a society, with some kind of intention, or even inadvertently to oppress women, is sexist in nature.

Against The Ideologist


The winning difference..

That's a straw man.

The Fool: No it isn't"

Otokage: Well I don't know if we men are bad in nature. What I know is that we have created a system which oppresses our mothers and daughters and wives.
http://www.debate.org...

The Fool: QED to infinity..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:37:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:31:16 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:24:50 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The feminist reality
Part 5


Otokage::: Now is when you make an ad hominem about a woman angry with men, and try to make us think this justifies your "feminism means being angry at men" idea.

The Fool: And ad hominem is when you insult somebody, as a substitute, for an argument..

Such as you are as sexist, therefore what you say is not true.. Just because your sexist, doesn't mean that what you say is not true.

That's what ad hominem is..

You're welcome..

<(8D)

Attacking an ideology by attacking a self-proclaimed follower of that ideology, is also an ad hominem.

The Fool: If what you said what true that would be a straw man.

No.

But my argument is legit because you are a symptom of the Ideology which suggest there is something pathological to humanity about the Ideology itself. Right?
http://37.media.tumblr.com...

Against The Ideologist

And 1

Honestly I think the case is closed lol

Exactly..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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2/5/2015 6:39:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 3:45:53 PM, Otokage wrote:
Oh please, not another thread. It really wasn't necessary. Btw some things those women said have a lot of sense. I agree with:

"Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." <- It is clear that if we live on a system that promotes domination of men over women, women will be less secured against any kind of action, and men will sadly be more susceptible of commiting those actions.

How is that clear?

This makes no sense.


"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations " obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign." <- Apart from the fancy way of saying it, I agree with her that again we live on a system that isn"t helping to prevent those kind of things. We look independently at the problem, while somehow we don"t realize we have a flawed system that tries to force on us the dominating male concept, and the victim female concept, as standards. We have reached a point in which being called a "girl" is a insult, but being called "a man", is a pride.

A concerted campaign?


The most important thing I think we need to focus on, is this one:

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men.""Elizabeth Cady Stanton

...

Just kiddin.

In some ways, women are superior. In others, men are.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/5/2015 6:41:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Fool: See, Even Jimmytimmy is less sexist then you are.
<(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Daltonian
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2/5/2015 8:12:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 5:15:25 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 2/5/2015 4:07:05 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Feminism is really just the advocacy of equal rights for women. Feminism doesn't state that men and women are totally and utterly equal in everything they do; our bodies and capabilities are slightly different, making us slightly unequal in different aspects of everyday life.

Disclaimer: I am neither an MRA nor a feminist.
Basically my views on men's rights vs feminism: (http://cdn.meme.am...)

That being said, I am very interested in the seeming contradiction between the acceptance of the fact that men and women have unequal bodies and hormones, and advocating for "gender-blind" treatment in everyday life. What are your thoughts on this?
The extent to which these "unequal bodies and hormones" exist is not enough to justify discrimination in how we treat men and women politically or economically. I acknowledge that the differences and 'inequalities' exist, but deny that they should realistically mean anything in terms of society, if that makes sense.
For example, men are physically faster and more powerful than women. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense that colleges would fund and support men's sports more than women's sports, because it is more entertaining to watch higher level athletes. So why is it that some people support Title IX?
This is a toughie. It is a truism that on *AVERAGE* men are physical faster and more powerful than women - but that doesn't eliminate the fact that there is a very plentiful pool of women who are physically faster and more powerful than men; and a big pool of men who have no interest in sports and are physically less fast and powerful than the aforementioned women. Because those select groups of powerful and fast women are just that - women - without things that preserve equal opportunities for men and women in sectors like you mentioned, they would have a lesser chance of being given the chance to play sports, which should not be tolerated. I hope that makes sense.

On the other hand, women are better at breastfeeding than men. That is a biological fact. So it makes sense for a company to give maternity leave but not paternity leave. So why do some people want companies to give paternity leave?
This is sort of like the other example you cited, except it functions differently. There are a lot of mothers who work with fathers who stay at home. In that case, the father would invariably deserve a right to paternity leave. Similarly, just because a woman has breasts, doesn't mean a father doesn't deserve an equal chance to develop emotional bonds with and raise his child.

The examples you cite let biological differences and gender roles define society rather than individual aspects of personhood when the biological differences are not significant enough to justify it. That is where my issue lies.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Skepsikyma
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2/6/2015 12:46:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 12:12:50 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
P 1. You consider what you think to be the [current] concept of masculinity to generally be inferior to the concept of femininity. In other words, you discourage it because you think its oppressive to Feminists.

P 2 And if men are generally masculine, then you have a general dislike, that is, a misandrous view of men.

C 1 You Really Do consider the feminist version of the current construct masculinity to be a bad thing, and that this masculine men are generally malicious and that men need to be CHANGED, and not woman, therefore you really do have a generalized dislike, towards men..
QED.

Against The Ideologist

MRA all day!!

( To be continued)

How do you define masculinity? Do you prefer the older conception of it to the one currently in use? In my opinion, men as a general group lost a lot of credibility when large swathes of us abandoned the old model of masculine virtue based in honesty, integrity, and honor in favor of a newer model which seems to be centered around social conformity.

"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor."
- Norman Mailer -
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/7/2015 4:14:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
FOOL SCHOOL
Response from http://www.debate.org...

Intro:
Some of the craziest feminist I have met are male feminist, or rather feminist allies, because let"s be honest many feminist think that a man can"t be a real feminist, per se. To them you are merely a profeminist. You"re not even to have your own thoughts on gender issues, but to be objectified as a tool, that is, a megaphone, where the real feminist blow hot air in your behind, so you can amplify what they think.

You're not feminism. :

Otokage : Ok. So I'm what you want me to be, ok?

The Fool: I try to avoid subjective definitions, in actuality you are this..
http://www.returnofkings.com...

But like feminism you have a subjectivist definition of masculinity.

Otokage:: As everybody else. But my subjective definition of masculinity is in any dictionary.

"Masculinity (also called manliness or manhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with boys and men. Masculinity is made up of both socially defined and biologically created factors.[1][2][3]
This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological male sex,[4][5] as both men and women can exhibit masculine traits and behaviors."


The Fool: There are many problems with Wikipedia as a source when the issues are controversial. Feminist have monopoly on gender issues on issue definitions, and feminist theory, is not fact.

"Historically many feminists have understood "woman" differently: not as a sex term, but as a gender term that depends on social and cultural factors (like social position). In so doing, they distinguished sex (being female or male) from gender (being a woman or a man), although most ordinary language users appear to treat the two interchangeably. More recently this distinction has come under sustained attack and many view it nowadays with (at least some) suspicion."

http://plato.stanford.edu...

The Fool: In other words it"s not a fact. But more like a faith..

Refutation
: Masculinity (also called manliness or manhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with boys and men. Masculinity is made up of both socially defined and biologically created factors.[1][2][3]

The Fool: If you actually read what you quoted you would recognize the inconsistencies in your quotes.

If masculinity is made up both of socially defined biological create factors, then it is not distinct from biology, which of course is objective, and thus part and parcel.

:This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological male sex,[4][5] as both men and women can exhibit masculine traits and behaviors."
QED"s

And second, there"s a difference between what something is considered, in other words, socially defined, and what something actually is. The latter may fail to represent the former but the former cannot fail to be itself.

You see the subjectivity versus objectivity problem here. Feminism is socially defined equality for the sexes, but that"s not necessarily what feminism actually is" Feminism also includes radical feminism, there is no distinct separation but rather a gradient.

Lastly there are ideals that we aspire to, but we must not confuse the difference between, what something actually is, what we aspire to, and what we consider something to be. Just like there"s a difference between what we identify ourselves as to what we actually are.

Of course our ideals of masculinity is always going to be positive, by virtue of them being our ideals. Can you see the circularity here?

In actuality, there are positive and negative traits related to masculinity, just as there is with femininity, but what feminist attempted to do particularly in postmodernism is make everything subjective so they can reinterpret the narrative of reality. And were taking back reality".
<(8D)

Against The Ideology

Stay tuned for your next class..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/7/2015 4:46:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
*The Fool:And second, there"s a difference between what something is considered, in other words, socially defined, and what something actually is.

The FORMER may fail to represent the LATER but the LATERcannot fail to be itself.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
AFism
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2/7/2015 7:08:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Its seems as though this thread is mainly arguing semantics and perception, using personal experiences to justify your arguments and youtube videos to support these arguments. A very interesting thread nonetheless but isn't fruitful at all. Everyone has this misconception about what feminism is because of the people who have become the forefront of this movement. Like Beyonce shaking her rear end barely clothed in front of a L.E.D. "Feminist" sign. Or the women who paint with their menstrual blood. Or this video of white women screaming as if they are sirens and then chanting what sounds like to be an african chant at the end. Yes these are all examples of feminists, that have their own brand of feminism. For example you can find the Beyonce feminists here at the "Crunk Feminist Collective" That call themselves "Crunk" feminists : http://www.crunkfeministcollective.com.... Feminism is a spectrum people and the individual has a right to define what feminism is to themselves, and it is quite obvious that people do that everyday. This is the reason why Beyonce can wear 6 inch heels, and bounce around for money and call herself a feminist. This applies to the feminists who paint with their menstrual blood, scream at people etc.

My whole point is saying that:

"The very problem here is the very problem in feminism theory, we're way too much is being presumed by those with the general anger towards men, and that's the problem begins."

is a problem in itself. There is no such thing as one feminism theory. There are multiple facets and theories inside feminism. There are black feminists with different theories of what feminism is than white feminists. There are gay feminists with different theories than a trans feminist. All of these theories are under the umbrella term feminism, a broad spectrum of beliefs. One belief that MANY have in common in feminism is the belief that EVERYONE should have equal rights.

So saying that feminist theory is only women with their general anger towards men is a problem.

That may very well be some brand of feminism that some women preach. Is that the end all be all? No.

But, I do understand where you are coming from! And, I do appreciate your opinion. There is a certain stigma that is attached to the term due to the media sensationalizing events like these:

http://www.thefrisky.com...

And portraying this as feminism. Yes it may very well be feminism, her brand of feminism. What people miss is that there isn't just one way to be feminist. Just like there isn't one way to be black, gay, white, poor, muslim, christian, man, or woman.

People define their reality and belief system for themselves :)

-Another Feminist