Total Posts:77|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Men's Higher Suicide Rate: Causes & Solutions

Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 8:37:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Suicide is already a complicated and serious issue with a myriad of variables. There are so many variables that I couldn't possibly address them all- and I'm not going to. Add to this the fact that suicide among men is raising at an alarming rate in recent years (in the UK particularly) and you undoubtedly have a topic that cannot be addressed in only a few sentences. So at the risk of alienating those who refuse to read long OPs, I'm going to make a long OP.

Deal with it.

So generally, what I"m interested in, is (a) what drives generally 40-50 yr old white men with lower socio-economic status specifically to have this higher rate of suicide than other groups and (b) what can we do about it? A lot of this will be speculation because the research simply isn"t available (and that's a large part of the problem) but I"ll try and rehash some of what is available before stating my opinion.

Rehashing causes as reported by various qualitative and quantitative studies:
(I link to some at the bottom as well as some general articles which link to others)

For those who may not know, women are 3x more likely to attempt suicide than men, but men are 4x more likely to succeed, making their rate of death by higher- this is true of men and women across all ages, races, and most countries who track these data."Across all countries reporting these data (except China and India) males show a suicide rate that is 3.0 to 7.5 times that of women......"The male suicide rate increases fairly steadily with age, peaking in the late 40s, then falling significantly and rising again in the 80s. Male rates are greater than female rates at all ages and substantially greater across most of the lifespan." http://www.bcmj.org...

A lot of research has been done in the past to address suicide among adolescents (and to some success) but very little has been done to address suicide among white men in their 40"s and 50"s- the group which was at the least risk of committing suicide in the past. This group became, by 2005, more susceptible than virtually every other group. Of course, it's not a contest- this is merely the specific topic of this particular thread. I'm looking mostly at dimensions of class, age, and sex leaving out, for the most part, race, sexuality, gender-identity, nationality, religion, health, etc.

The rates of suicide (not suicide *attempts*) for females among many age groups and countries has remained the same or gone down in recent decades- suggesting that outreach and prevention methods employed in the past are working with some degree of success for women while the specific risk factors associated with being a male are not adequately addressed by suicide prevention efforts.

Risk factors for these men (not an exhaustive list) have often been suggested to include: higher stress from work- in particular due to low socio-economic status, higher likelihood of alcohol abuse, lack of interest in seeking medical help when experiencing feelings of depression and/or suicidal ideation, lack of social networks, and being single.

For many men, their partner (wife or girlfriend) may be the only individual they confide in with any regularity. "being a parent of a young child appeared to explain the apparent protective effect of marriage for women in the Danish study rather than married status per se, whereas in men marriage appeared to be a protective factor in its own right (or single status a risk factor)." http://bjp.rcpsych.org...

In this regard, the relatively higher economic independence of women in recent decades- thus the basis for marriage being less based on an economic arrangement and more on romantic love- gives more women the ability to leave relationships more easily leaving relatively more men at risk of being single and thus more at risk of feeling isolated- with their primary, and sometimes only, confidant gone.

The fact that women are more apt to seek medical help and have access to a wider social network from which they gain the skills to cope with their sense of isolation, feelings of hopelessness, meaninglessness, etc. is part of the reason women are often less likely to commit suicide after a divorce than men and in general.

My view:

So this brings us to at least one reason why men

(a) might avoid these social and/or medical interventions,
(b) are more affected by low socio-economic status than women, and
(c) are so negatively affected by being single that it would become a risk factor for them.

I believe a large part of the reason is the social pressure on men to be masculine in the traditional way: i.e. the pressure on men to be the "breadwinner," to carry everyone else at their own expense, to never ask for help even when they truly need it, to feel like they have failed as a man if they cannot support their family economically, and thus to feel so isolated and purposeless when their wife leaves them that suicidal ideation, in particular exacerbated by alcohol abuse, may affect them more than it affects women. Their job and their masculinity is a source of personal pride and meaning for them- especially those men of low socio-economic status most affected by recessions, thus, as we might expect, suicides among males are clustered more highly among areas most hit by the recession in the UK- a country with an alarmingly higher rate of suicide among this group of men than ever before.

Part of the solution for this issue is to launch a campaign which would encourage men to:
(a) not wrap up their self-worth in how much money they make (so that they would be less affected emotionally by a loss of economic status),
(b) not feel pressured to be the "breadwinner" as if it is their sole purpose in life,
(c) not feel like they have failed as a man if/when they need to reach out to social networks or medical professionals in their time of need.

In summation, encourage men to not wrap up their pride, life's purpose, and self-worth in being "masculine."

continued in a comment.....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 8:37:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In addition to individual men reckoning with/challenging expectations of masculinity which plague them by virtue of them being male, researchers need to be encouraged to view adult men as a group worthy of research and their plight as worthy of addressing. People may be inclined to unconsciously accept the notion that men "can take care of themselves" when in reality they are human, social creatures, and they deserve and often need support and connection and a life"s purpose and role outside of being ideally totally independent in mind, finances, and life in general. It"s unnecessary, unrealistic, and most importantly: it is harmful.

Also, medical professionals need to be made more aware of men's particular attitudes toward asking for help from healthcare professionals. Research ought to be done on what they can be aware of as far as warning signs in men specifically which may indicate depression or suicidal ideation. They may be quite different from those which indicate depression in women- who generally feel more comfortable expressing or showing that they have emotional problems and need help.

>To conclude...

Women in recent decades have gained more social acceptance to be more fluid in what is expected of them with regards to being feminine or masculine. In essence, women have retained the social acceptance to be perceived as vulnerable -emotionally, physically, financially, etc.- and have also *gained* more social acceptance to be perceived as strong- emotionally, physically, financially, etc. Men, on the other hand, have retained social acceptance to be strong, but have not gained the social acceptance to be perceived as vulnerable to the degree that women have gained the social acceptance to be vulnerable. Typically the deepest insult to call a man is still to refer to him, in some way or another, as less of a man or less masculine than what is normal or expected so it is clear there is still more work to be done with regard to men"s perceived freedom to shun and/or change rigid expectations of men. It may very well be a source of great injury to them- fatal or otherwise- and it is imperative that these issues be addressed on a national- and perhaps international- scale if all these individuals suffering from depression and suicidal ideation are to be helped.

So what do you think? Why do men of low socio-economic status in their 40"s-50"s have the most risk factors associated with suicide? And more importantly- what can be done about it?

Some things to consider:
http://www.samaritans.org...
http://www.forbes.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org...
http://www.cdc.gov...
https://www.afsp.org...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:01:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This would have to be the best researched and most carefully written OP of all time. Congratulations!

My own view is that people get depressed when they feel unnecessary to others. It's interesting, for example, that having a young child is a protective factor for women. Of course, a mother is absolutely necessary to a young child, and so mothers would feel needed. People can feel needed from the quality of their relationships with others, and they can be needed at work. I suppose that a low-level, single man in his 40s or 50s may feel unnecessary to the world, especially if he's not very good at making those connections. Maybe we need to teach men how to be more useful to others.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:19:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The feminist version of suicide,
Part 1

Oryus: Add to this the fact that suicide among men is raising at an alarming rate in recent years (in the UK particularly) and you undoubtedly have a topic that cannot be addressed in only a few sentences. So at the risk of alienating those who refuse to read long OPs, I'm going to make a long OP.

The Fool: it's not hard to read, it's hard to answer"
http://rationalwiki.org...

Oryus: So generally, what I'm interested in, is (a) what drives generally 40-50 yr old white men with lower socio-economic status specifically to have this higher rate of suicide than other groups and (b) what can we do about it?

Divorce courts generally favor women, and thus encourages women to divorce, instead of stick it out and work it out particularly in those years.

Part of this is a result of feminism, because previously men would get the children because they were breadwinners and were more likely to have money to care for them, but feminist fought for women to get the children because they argued, that they were better caregivers, and thus should be allotted child-support from the father. Feminism, sold the idea to the public that bothers that did not do this were deadbeat dads..

After such divorces, Men are three times more likely to commit suicide, and since most of money goes to alimony, and child support, they no longer are useful since men are generally only useful in society as utilities, particularly in relationships.

Similarly, if a couple has a child out of wedlock, there are much more social resources, that will support the women, and pay for the child, and put the man in jail should she not pay, thanks to feminist endorsed policies. This of course encourages single motherhood.

Against The Ideologist

G your not trying to, not seem sexist.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:22:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:01:58 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Garbanza : This would have to be the best researched and most carefully written OP of all time. Congratulations!

The Fool: the sources are simply just saying, that men are more likely to commit suicide, which we are ready now, in other words, they are redundant. Did you even check them?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:24:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Fool: The reason why men does not get support, is because feminism, sells the narrative that men are generally evil, and women are neutral, MRA's are in constant competition with getting resources and help for many situations.

But the criteria regarding depression and suicide, is based around women's depression, and how women react, assuming that men and women, are the same, and so is unfavorable to man.

We just have the first men's now the first men center in Canada ever and it's hard to even have that because feminists try to shut it down for not being feminist enough. So a key problem is a matter of competing for resources between MRA and feminist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:26:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Great OP.

Oryus, do you think the stereotype of men needing to be dominant and such is genetic, or created by society? Or a mixture of both? If so, whats the ratio?

Given different testosterone levels between genders and the effects it has, I think its hard to argue that there isn't at least a part genetic component to people thinking men are supposed to be strong, thick-skinned, etc. And if this idea is hard-wired into our brains, that could pose problems for a reeducation campaign.

But its possible that societal norms are whats blown this stereotype out of proportion a bit and that genetics isn't that big of a factor, which is why I'm asking your opinion.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:29:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oryus: Risk factors for these men (not an exhaustive list) have often been suggested to include: higher stress from work- in particular due to low socio-economic status, higher likelihood of alcohol abuse, lack of interest in seeking medical help when experiencing feelings of depression and/or suicidal ideation, lack of social networks, and being single.

The Fool: I believe women are 60% more likely to get depression".. Nonetheless, men are 4 to 7 times likely to kill themselves".

So it's not necessary depression, in fact I believe testosterone, counters depression a little. It's life stress, which indicates that life is much more stressful for men as opposed to women, that is not even worth living.

It's getting married, and getting divorced which cause the problem. Marriage, the way the system is currently organized is harmful to men, and increases the likelihood of them killing themselves, since their most likely to fail, and put man in such a disadvantaged position.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oryus: The rates of suicide (not suicide *attempts*) for females among many age groups and countries has remained the same or gone down in recent decades- suggesting that outreach and prevention methods employed in the past are working with some degree of success for women while the specific risk factors associated with being a male are not adequately addressed by suicide prevention efforts.

The Fool: Perhaps is because MEN are not even allowed to talk about men's issues, concerns and interests without being considered misogynist, or crybabies..

Feminists say that men need to show more emotions, but then when men complain about similar problems, they say that men are just whiners, and that it's their own fault, and that they are to blame.. That is, they put them down for talking about their very own issues..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:37:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:29:44 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
I'd expect men with kids to have lower suicide rates than men without them. Is this statistically true?

I'll reply to the OP when I have some more time, but I just wanted to say that this is a complex question. By "with kids," I assume you mean "who take care of their kids" or something along those lines, as I get the feeling that rates of suicide and/or depression among absent fathers is roughly equivalent to men who are not fathers. In the case of parents who are present in their kids' lives, I believe the depression rate is actually higher than for non-parents, but I'd have to do the research.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:38:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oryus: The fact that women are more apt to seek medical help and have access to a wider social network from which they gain the skills to cope with their sense of isolation, feelings of hopelessness, meaninglessness, etc. is part of the reason women are often less likely to commit suicide after a divorce than men and in general.

The Fool: The fact that there is more help, more social support, more social programs, more money, more encouragement, more caring, and more sympathy for women, is why it's easier for women to seek support. The fact that feminists, will not give up any resources, to help men unless they do so under the feminist narrative in which men are generally evil, and too much man is considered toxic, but not the other way around.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:49:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oryus: I believe a large part of the reason is the social pressure on men to be masculine in the traditional way: i.e. the pressure on men to be the "breadwinner," to carry everyone else at their own expense, to never ask for help even when they truly need it, to feel like they have failed as a man if they cannot support their family economically, and thus to feel so isolated and purposeless when their wife leaves them that suicidal ideation, in particular exacerbated by alcohol abuse, may affect them more than it affects women.

The Fool: This doesn't make any sense, as we are more feminized than we've ever been, and men are the least masculine than they've been in 100 years. Therefore, there is a positive correlation with suicide, and emasculation. Not the other way around..

Oryus: In summation, encourage men to not wrap up their pride, life's purpose, and self-worth in being "masculine."

The Fool: you see the problem here???

You're saying that men are the problem.. As though it has nothing to do with women who expect men to have money and pay for things, but we shame men who don't like fat women. , It's blaming men for everything for everything that causes man to kill themselves.

Against The Ideologist

it's your fault.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
YYW
Posts: 36,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 9:57:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:26:22 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Great OP.

Oryus, do you think the stereotype of men needing to be dominant and such is genetic, or created by society? Or a mixture of both? If so, whats the ratio?

Given different testosterone levels between genders and the effects it has, I think its hard to argue that there isn't at least a part genetic component to people thinking men are supposed to be strong, thick-skinned, etc. And if this idea is hard-wired into our brains, that could pose problems for a reeducation campaign.

But its possible that societal norms are whats blown this stereotype out of proportion a bit and that genetics isn't that big of a factor, which is why I'm asking your opinion.

Excellent response...

The social impacts of testosterone v. estrogen have always been interesting to me. I wonder how, and to what extent, it can be shown that testosterone or estrogen actually cause anything... because it seems to me that we're just reasoning backward, at least usually, in assuming that because men are "dominant" (or, if we assume for the sake of argument they are) and they have "testosterone" ...that the latter causes the former.

It seems to me that the stronger argument is that our ideals of masculinity and femininity are more of a socially produced thing than they are the result of natural biological processes... but the intersection of sociology and human genetics isn't something I know a lot about...
Tsar of DDO
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:00:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 8:37:50 PM, Oryus wrote:
In addition to individual men reckoning with/challenging expectations of masculinity which plague them by virtue of them being male, researchers need to be encouraged to view adult men as a group worthy of research and their plight as worthy of addressing. People may be inclined to unconsciously accept the notion that men "can take care of themselves" when in reality they are human, social creatures, and they deserve and often need support and connection and a life"s purpose and role outside of being ideally totally independent in mind, finances, and life in general. It"s unnecessary, unrealistic, and most importantly: it is harmful.

Also, medical professionals need to be made more aware of men's particular attitudes toward asking for help from healthcare professionals. Research ought to be done on what they can be aware of as far as warning signs in men specifically which may indicate depression or suicidal ideation. They may be quite different from those which indicate depression in women- who generally feel more comfortable expressing or showing that they have emotional problems and need help.

>To conclude...

Women in recent decades have gained more social acceptance to be more fluid in what is expected of them with regards to being feminine or masculine. In essence, women have retained the social acceptance to be perceived as vulnerable -emotionally, physically, financially, etc.- and have also *gained* more social acceptance to be perceived as strong- emotionally, physically, financially, etc. Men, on the other hand, have retained social acceptance to be strong, but have not gained the social acceptance to be perceived as vulnerable to the degree that women have gained the social acceptance to be vulnerable. Typically the deepest insult to call a man is still to refer to him, in some way or another, as less of a man or less masculine than what is normal or expected so it is clear there is still more work to be done with regard to men"s perceived freedom to shun and/or change rigid expectations of men. It may very well be a source of great injury to them- fatal or otherwise- and it is imperative that these issues be addressed on a national- and perhaps international- scale if all these individuals suffering from depression and suicidal ideation are to be helped.

The Fool: Your conclusion is that men need to be more like women. What you saying that generally women and or femininity is better than masculinity, And man, if they want to be better, and not kill themselves, have to change themselves to be more like women. This is your brain on feminism. It doesn't get any more sexist, insincere, and condescending than that.

What men need, is resources, social programs, and social support like women do.

Why is it that men on average have a lower life expectancy. Perhaps because the feminist narrative, that life is so HARD for woman as oppose to men is absolute BULLSH!T

Against The Ideologist

Your friendly neighborhood MRA.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:07:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:26:22 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Great OP.

sankya, sankya ^_^

Oryus, do you think the stereotype of men needing to be dominant and such is genetic, or created by society? Or a mixture of both? If so, whats the ratio?

I'd say it's most likely, like pretty much everything, a mixture of both and to what degree biology and society plays in each individual probably depends on the person, their values, how they were raised, their level of testosterone, their levels of cortisol, their levels of oxytocin, etc.

Given different testosterone levels between genders and the effects it has, I think its hard to argue that there isn't at least a part genetic component to people thinking men are supposed to be strong, thick-skinned, etc. And if this idea is hard-wired into our brains, that could pose problems for a reeducation campaign.

Yes, there's no doubt that some part of it is biological.

However, if it is equally as strong as the relatively higher oxytocin levels in women which may drive them to be cooperative and nurturing, then men stand a very good chance at overcoming this with the impact of a social campaign. Working women with children (as opposed to stay-at-home moms or working women without children) report the highest levels of happiness in life so I think that it's fair to say that men could probably stand to benefit from more balance in their life as well. http://www.apa.org...
(there are many other studies which report this; this is just one)

If you do concede that social pressures are at least a part of it, then a social campaign will still alleviate some of the problem and I think that's worthy of consideration in itself.

But its possible that societal norms are whats blown this stereotype out of proportion a bit and that genetics isn't that big of a factor, which is why I'm asking your opinion.

Yeah, I'd agree that that's probably the case- stereotypes have blown it way out of proportion- because whatever biological drive that men have to be competitive, it isn't stronger than the biological drive to live. I'm forced to believe that something else is at play there in addition to biology. It's fight or flight, not fight or suicide.

Testosterone works in opposition to cortisol- which might jump into action in a fight-or-flight situation when testosterone is seemingly not the best course of action (i.e. when it seems like a losing battle). When these guys are so, so stressed out and feel so doomed and hopeless that high levels of cortisol drive them to not only give up on a fight (their life, job, etc), and they succumb to "flight" if you will- to the most extreme degree (that they would literally take their own life) -I have to guess that we have set many men up with what they perceive to be an unfathomably impossible battle. They are still surviving, they are still men, but their perception is still that they cannot "win." It seems so absurd (from an evolutionary perspective) to me that both the biological drive to fight AND to live at all is overcome entirely by the sense of desperation many feel. I don't think it can be explained solely in terms of biology.
http://www.utexas.edu...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:23:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Feminist Conclusions
The Fool:"After such divorces, Men are three times more likely to commit suicide, and since most of money goes to alimony, and child support, they no longer are useful since men are generally only useful in society as utilities, particularly in relationships."


Garbanza: Maybe we need to teach men how to be more useful to others.

Pseudo- Oryus: Masculinity is bad and men need to be more like woman.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:27:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 10:23:13 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Pseudo- Oryus: Masculinity is bad and men need to be more like woman.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:31:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 10:27:47 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 2/19/2015 10:23:13 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:

Pseudo- Oryus: Masculinity is bad and men need to be more like woman.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:34:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Fool: Obviously I am over simplifying it.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:34:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 8:37:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
I think that another big factor is the worship of youth in our society, and the shift of the 'ideal' towards youth. This is an especially big problem in the gay community, and is one of the aspects of it that I find, frankly, disgusting where it exists. In our society, just about everything good is associated with youth. Once a man is passed his twenties, perhaps mid thirties, it's all downhill from there. So a man whose caught in that slide, who feels like doors are slamming in his face, who slowly realizes that the desirable people depicted in those ads aren't 'him' anymore, will feel alienated not just from his peers but from his entire society.

This sense alienation from society itself can foster anomie, or a disconnect with the moral framework of the age, because in a hedonistic society like ours attractiveness, money, and power are almost universally seen as those ends which ought to be pursued on some level. If a man has failed to secure himself in the last two categories, and feels the first slipping through the fingers, he has failed by the standard which our society holds us to. It doesn't matter how kind, wise, or just he is, he has been branded with the scarlet letter, he's a 'loser'. At this point, one either accepts this image of oneself, which reinforces suicidal ideation, or one rejects societies overarching moral framework, which can leave one with a sense of anomie if nothing replaces it. Perhaps a family could recenter a person, but if the man has no family to lean on for support this also fails. It is at its root a symptom of a sick society which fosters shallowness and skin-deep materialism over an appreciation for virtue or understanding.

It didn't always used to be this way. The old religious framework obviously placed value on age and wisdom. Evolutionarily, male pattern baldness is actually theorized to have been a sexually attractive trait, because it designated a mate who had stood the test of time and could provide. But now, men are look at as if they have an expiration date after which they go sour. Our society has completely reversed the moral paradigm as it applies with men, and that doesn't have anything to do with gender relations. It is more a product, in my opinion, of mass marketing and advertisement justifications which have manufactured a perennially elusive standard of beauty for people to chase after.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:38:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oryus: If you do concede that social pressures are at least a part of it, then a social campaign will still alleviate some of the problem and I think that's worthy of consideration in itself.

The Fool: This doesn't make any sense, as we are more feminized than we've ever been, and men are the least masculine than they've been in 100 years. Therefore, there is a positive correlation with suicide, and emasculation. Not the other way around..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:46:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 10:38:47 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Oryus: If you do concede that social pressures are at least a part of it, then a social campaign will still alleviate some of the problem and I think that's worthy of consideration in itself.

The Fool: This doesn't make any sense, as we are more feminized than we've ever been, and men are the least masculine than they've been in 100 years. Therefore, there is a positive correlation with suicide, and emasculation. Not the other way around..

E.g
Suicide rate in black men is relatively low, and black men are much more stereotypically masculine. While homosexuals I believe have the highest rate, of suicide amongst men.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:48:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 10:34:41 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/19/2015 8:37:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
I think that another big factor is the worship of youth in our society, and the shift of the 'ideal' towards youth. This is an especially big problem in the gay community, and is one of the aspects of it that I find, frankly, disgusting where it exists. In our society, just about everything good is associated with youth. Once a man is passed his twenties, perhaps mid thirties, it's all downhill from there. So a man whose caught in that slide, who feels like doors are slamming in his face, who slowly realizes that the desirable people depicted in those ads aren't 'him' anymore, will feel alienated not just from his peers but from his entire society.

This sense alienation from society itself can foster anomie, or a disconnect with the moral framework of the age, because in a hedonistic society like ours attractiveness, money, and power are almost universally seen as those ends which ought to be pursued on some level. If a man has failed to secure himself in the last two categories, and feels the first slipping through the fingers, he has failed by the standard which our society holds us to. It doesn't matter how kind, wise, or just he is, he has been branded with the scarlet letter, he's a 'loser'. At this point, one either accepts this image of oneself, which reinforces suicidal ideation, or one rejects societies overarching moral framework, which can leave one with a sense of anomie if nothing replaces it. Perhaps a family could recenter a person, but if the man has no family to lean on for support this also fails. It is at its root a symptom of a sick society which fosters shallowness and skin-deep materialism over an appreciation for virtue or understanding.

It didn't always used to be this way. The old religious framework obviously placed value on age and wisdom. Evolutionarily, male pattern baldness is actually theorized to have been a sexually attractive trait, because it designated a mate who had stood the test of time and could provide. But now, men are look at as if they have an expiration date after which they go sour. Our society has completely reversed the moral paradigm as it applies with men, and that doesn't have anything to do with gender relations. It is more a product, in my opinion, of mass marketing and advertisement justifications which have manufactured a perennially elusive standard of beauty for people to chase after.

*nods*

The value of youth over maturity actually goes even deeper than a shallow media-related one too.

Have you ever heard of the term "Years of potential life lost"? http://en.wikipedia.org...

When I was reading up earlier, this concept was used, not necessarily as a justification (but maybe sometimes?) but more as an explanation for why adolescent suicide has been more widely researched and made public via awareness campaigns.

And I bet there is a parental drive among people in power to care more about that as well- but that's just a hunch.

And I know what you're referring to in your third paragraph. I'd add that in many African tribes (perhaps not so much today due to the spread of Western religion), the death of an old person was mourned far more widely and deeply than the death of a young person. Not only because childhood mortality was/is far more common when living a pastoral or hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but also because personhood was viewed as earned, not given upon birth. Personhood was/is not an on/off switch but a continuum. So personhood was gained through experience and devotion to one's community and one's value only existed in relation to the impact they had made/make. So losing a 90 yr old?? That's a whole hell of a lot of person to lose- and therefore a lot of value lost. Kid dies? Make a new one.

I suppose I can see a place for both perspectives. I get it- both the value of the potential for a lot of future value/mourning lost opportunity and also the reverence for established value- i.e. respecting your elders.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Raisor
Posts: 4,466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:51:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:57:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/19/2015 9:26:22 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Great OP.

Oryus, do you think the stereotype of men needing to be dominant and such is genetic, or created by society? Or a mixture of both? If so, whats the ratio?

Given different testosterone levels between genders and the effects it has, I think its hard to argue that there isn't at least a part genetic component to people thinking men are supposed to be strong, thick-skinned, etc. And if this idea is hard-wired into our brains, that could pose problems for a reeducation campaign.

But its possible that societal norms are whats blown this stereotype out of proportion a bit and that genetics isn't that big of a factor, which is why I'm asking your opinion.

Excellent response...

The social impacts of testosterone v. estrogen have always been interesting to me. I wonder how, and to what extent, it can be shown that testosterone or estrogen actually cause anything... because it seems to me that we're just reasoning backward, at least usually, in assuming that because men are "dominant" (or, if we assume for the sake of argument they are) and they have "testosterone" ...that the latter causes the former.

It seems to me that the stronger argument is that our ideals of masculinity and femininity are more of a socially produced thing than they are the result of natural biological processes... but the intersection of sociology and human genetics isn't something I know a lot about...

If you haven't, listen to this episode of TAL.

Testosterone has a huge impact on behavior and mental health. Some really interesting accounts of how the loss/gain of it impacts how people exist in the world.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org...

Gender is definitely socially constructed to a large degree, but biological factors also play a large role in how individuals think and behave.

I have to admit I get pretty twisted around trying to think about where biological factors fit in critical discussions of gender. I'm inclined to say critical theory picks up where discussions of normativity start up, but you'd figure biology would inform that. Similarly wrt the OP, we are looking for an explanation for a phenomena and my first impulse isnt to look to biology but to a critical understanding of gender and society. Of course that might be because suicide is closely tied to normative thinking?

TLDR: listen to that episode of TAL, its pretty good.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 10:58:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skepsikyma: If a man has failed to secure himself in the last two categories, and feels the first slipping through the fingers, he has failed by the standard which our society holds us to. It doesn't matter how kind, wise, or just he is, he has been branded with the scarlet letter, he's a 'loser'.

The Fool: And would you not agree that, there should be social programs which help these men get back on their feet. Rather than shaming them for being masculine, or telling them to simply cry more, or that accepting being feminine will fix all the problems.. Would not better solutions be to have your places they can go, and socialize and not feel alone, and perhaps help them get back on their feet, a kind of second chance.

And don't you think there should be changing policies, in regards to marriage which makes man three times as likely to kill themselves change..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 11:00:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It was explained to me in psychology class that women attempt suicide more because they are more prone to emotional cries for help; they aren't actually trying to die. Men actually commit suicide more because they are more prone to rash acts of violence and misplaced courage. Given the personalities of masculinity and femininity, it is natural to suppose that women would "attempt" suicide more while men would commit suicide more.

As to why this middle-aged male demographic is committing so much suicide, I think it's a fair assumption to look at money and the breadwinner theory previously mentioned. I think that, better than studies, one should simply read Death of a Salesman to get the point adequately. It's a short, easy read, only like 100 pages.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 11:04:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 10:48:02 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2015 10:34:41 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/19/2015 8:37:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
I think that another big factor is the worship of youth in our society, and the shift of the 'ideal' towards youth. This is an especially big problem in the gay community, and is one of the aspects of it that I find, frankly, disgusting where it exists. In our society, just about everything good is associated with youth. Once a man is passed his twenties, perhaps mid thirties, it's all downhill from there. So a man whose caught in that slide, who feels like doors are slamming in his face, who slowly realizes that the desirable people depicted in those ads aren't 'him' anymore, will feel alienated not just from his peers but from his entire society.

This sense alienation from society itself can foster anomie, or a disconnect with the moral framework of the age, because in a hedonistic society like ours attractiveness, money, and power are almost universally seen as those ends which ought to be pursued on some level. If a man has failed to secure himself in the last two categories, and feels the first slipping through the fingers, he has failed by the standard which our society holds us to. It doesn't matter how kind, wise, or just he is, he has been branded with the scarlet letter, he's a 'loser'. At this point, one either accepts this image of oneself, which reinforces suicidal ideation, or one rejects societies overarching moral framework, which can leave one with a sense of anomie if nothing replaces it. Perhaps a family could recenter a person, but if the man has no family to lean on for support this also fails. It is at its root a symptom of a sick society which fosters shallowness and skin-deep materialism over an appreciation for virtue or understanding.

It didn't always used to be this way. The old religious framework obviously placed value on age and wisdom. Evolutionarily, male pattern baldness is actually theorized to have been a sexually attractive trait, because it designated a mate who had stood the test of time and could provide. But now, men are look at as if they have an expiration date after which they go sour. Our society has completely reversed the moral paradigm as it applies with men, and that doesn't have anything to do with gender relations. It is more a product, in my opinion, of mass marketing and advertisement justifications which have manufactured a perennially elusive standard of beauty for people to chase after.

*nods*

The value of youth over maturity actually goes even deeper than a shallow media-related one too.

Have you ever heard of the term "Years of potential life lost"? http://en.wikipedia.org...

Never heard the term, but I'm familiar with the concept.

When I was reading up earlier, this concept was used, not necessarily as a justification (but maybe sometimes?) but more as an explanation for why adolescent suicide has been more widely researched and made public via awareness campaigns.

And I bet there is a parental drive among people in power to care more about that as well- but that's just a hunch.

Yeah, I think that this is indirectly related to your next point:

And I know what you're referring to in your third paragraph. I'd add that in many African tribes (perhaps not so much today due to the spread of Western religion), the death of an old person was mourned far more widely and deeply than the death of a young person. Not only because childhood mortality was/is far more common when living a pastoral or hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but also because personhood was viewed as earned, not given upon birth. Personhood was/is not an on/off switch but a continuum. So personhood was gained through experience and devotion to one's community and one's value only existed in relation to the impact they had made/make. So losing a 90 yr old?? That's a whole hell of a lot of person to lose- and therefore a lot of value lost. Kid dies? Make a new one.

The problem is that our society is, and I will extrapolate shortly, too self-centered. I hate this term because it is used so inexactly, so I need to specify. There is a way to see oneself as a part of a matrix, to notice that one's action have consequences, while also still being individualistic in the sense that one retains individual goals and sovereignty. This person is self-centered and group-aware, and I think that this is the ideal. Then there are the 'true believers', those who lose themselves in a cause, whom Eric Hoffer tackles in his 'On the Nature of Mass Movements'. This is also not desirable. Then there is what we have: the tendency to see the individual as separated from the people around them, as existing in a way which is almost solipsistic. This is also a twisted worldview, and it's why I think that things which I find disturbing, like YPLL are so prevalent. We are looking at this as if the only thing which is lost from the person's loss is the the experience lost by the person themselves. The attitude of the tribe is, in my opinion, much healthier, because it takes into account not only what is lost by the individual that died but what was lost by every individual in the community. Our society needs to become more group aware, instead of vacillating between solipsistic individualism and gross collectivism.

I suppose I can see a place for both perspectives. I get it- both the value of the potential for a lot of future value/mourning lost opportunity and also the reverence for established value- i.e. respecting your elders.

I agree, but we've yet to replace the religious value structure which the West has all but jettisoned with anything which would fill the same purpose of a social binding agent. Nietzsche's famous lament rings true even now.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 11:48:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would agree with a lot of this. I see it as a major problem that society as a whole has these misguided - and often harmful - notions of masculinity and femininity. They see emotions, feelings, and opening up to people as weak and feminine and independence, bottling yourself, and 'strength' as strong and masculine. In reality, all of these are parts of the human experience, and should be expressed freely by men and women without fear of social restraints. So many men believe nowadays that if they try to get help for their problems, they're being womanly or weak, so they would rather try and tough it out on their own because they think it's the manly thing to do. No. It's a foolish thing to do, male or female. Everyone needs help sometimes.

Solutions, though, are trickier. I see them as somewhat paradoxical. On one hand, self-worth has to be emphasized. On the other hand, so do feelings of trust, community, and emotional connections. Your worth isn't tied to anyone else, but you do have to depend on others at times.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2015 11:49:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 9:29:44 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
I'd expect men with kids to have lower suicide rates than men without them. Is this statistically true?

Oh, I didn't see this til just now!

I don't recall reading about that one way or the other but I'll probably look into it soon. It'd be interesting to know.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.