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I'm Looking for a better word choice - help?

Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.
My work here is, finally, done.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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2/26/2015 1:02:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

Provoked.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 1:05:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:02:55 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

Provoked.

Doesn't matter.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 1:11:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.

This is not about me or any case that I know of. (you think so low of me :(

I want you to be able to say that the guy I hit was .....responsible?.... for getting hit by me. This is all I am trying to accomplish with this thread:
How can an onlooker describe that the guy has some blame in getting hit, because he knew what would happen?
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 1:19:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:11:23 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.

This is not about me or any case that I know of. (you think so low of me :(

I don't exactly know how me thinking that you would punch a dude in response to them insulting your sister makes you think I think low of you.... it's a reasonable response.

I want you to be able to say that the guy I hit was .....responsible?.... for getting hit by me. This is all I am trying to accomplish with this thread:
How can an onlooker describe that the guy has some blame in getting hit, because he knew what would happen?

How did the guy who got hit knew it would happen? Did he have knowledge of this hypothetical person's inclination towards violence with regard to people who insult his sister?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 1:22:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:19:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:11:23 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.

This is not about me or any case that I know of. (you think so low of me :(

I don't exactly know how me thinking that you would punch a dude in response to them insulting your sister makes you think I think low of you.... it's a reasonable response.

I want you to be able to say that the guy I hit was .....responsible?.... for getting hit by me. This is all I am trying to accomplish with this thread:
How can an onlooker describe that the guy has some blame in getting hit, because he knew what would happen?

How did the guy who got hit knew it would happen? Did he have knowledge of this hypothetical person's inclination towards violence with regard to people who insult his sister?
Yes. Or, at least that it was a risky thing to say.
As you said, it is a reasonable response, so it was foolish of him to say it.
So, that makes him stupid? for taking the risk.
Like I said, I want to convey that the person is partly to blame for what happened to them WITHOUT taking blame away from the person who was in the wrong (me, in this example).
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 1:29:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:22:26 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:19:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:11:23 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.

This is not about me or any case that I know of. (you think so low of me :(

I don't exactly know how me thinking that you would punch a dude in response to them insulting your sister makes you think I think low of you.... it's a reasonable response.

I want you to be able to say that the guy I hit was .....responsible?.... for getting hit by me. This is all I am trying to accomplish with this thread:
How can an onlooker describe that the guy has some blame in getting hit, because he knew what would happen?

How did the guy who got hit knew it would happen? Did he have knowledge of this hypothetical person's inclination towards violence with regard to people who insult his sister?
Yes. Or, at least that it was a risky thing to say.
As you said, it is a reasonable response, so it was foolish of him to say it.
So, that makes him stupid? for taking the risk.
Like I said, I want to convey that the person is partly to blame for what happened to them WITHOUT taking blame away from the person who was in the wrong (me, in this example).

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister. While I made the choice to hit you, you brought it on yourself."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 1:32:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:29:21 PM, YYW wrote:

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister. While I made the choice to hit you, you brought it on yourself."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

"brought it on to yourself" sounds like he deserved it, though. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Again, this is more for an onlooker standpoint. Imagine if you said "he brought it on to himself" and someone else said "Are you saying he was asking for it?".
ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!! There is not a good word that can eliminate the second question, is there?
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 1:53:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:32:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:29:21 PM, YYW wrote:

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister. While I made the choice to hit you, you brought it on yourself."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

"brought it on to yourself" sounds like he deserved it, though. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Again, this is more for an onlooker standpoint. Imagine if you said "he brought it on to himself" and someone else said "Are you saying he was asking for it?".
ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!! There is not a good word that can eliminate the second question, is there?

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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2/26/2015 2:14:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

The world isn't going to adjust itself to accommodate your bad temper. Your fault
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 2:24:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:53:39 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:32:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:29:21 PM, YYW wrote:

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister. While I made the choice to hit you, you brought it on yourself."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

"brought it on to yourself" sounds like he deserved it, though. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Again, this is more for an onlooker standpoint. Imagine if you said "he brought it on to himself" and someone else said "Are you saying he was asking for it?".
ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!! There is not a good word that can eliminate the second question, is there?

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

Okay, let's try something else.
A black man makes it a point to visit a KKK rally in a rural area. He is found out and is, obviously, killed.
That was a very stupid risk he took. I want to say it is his fault he died, but that sounds like I am excusing the Klansmen.
How can I phrase this to show the black man is responsible for his death....but not really responsible, since the Klan are bastards?
I am not even sure my question makes sense...
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 2:25:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:14:29 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

The world isn't going to adjust itself to accommodate your bad temper. Your fault

Way to miss the entire point :/
My work here is, finally, done.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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2/26/2015 2:30:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:25:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:14:29 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

The world isn't going to adjust itself to accommodate your bad temper. Your fault

Way to miss the entire point :/

Oh? How so? I felt like I responding to the topic exactly how you intended.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 2:37:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:30:13 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:25:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:14:29 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

The world isn't going to adjust itself to accommodate your bad temper. Your fault

Way to miss the entire point :/

Oh? How so? I felt like I responding to the topic exactly how you intended.
I'm not asking the world to accommodate me.
The man knew what would happen. So, his action caused my reaction. This is not to say he was in the wrong or broke the law, as I clearly did. However, is he wholly innocent in his broken jaw? He KNEW, or at least very reasonably could anticipate the risk, of what would happen.

This is what I am trying to express: his fault in asking for it.
Similar examples:
leaving your car running and someone steals it
giving your bank account information online to some Nigerian prince
marrying an abusive boyfriend

These are things that, while the victim is innocent, they aren't without blame for their circumstance.
My work here is, finally, done.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is about two types of victimhood. If you're a violent person, then the people you assault are victims, but also according to you, everyone else should tiptoe around you, anticipate your moods and avoid trigger topics. That is, their speech and actions should be restricted because of your threat of violence. I disagree because controlling people like that through threat of violence (whether deliberate or not) is wrong.

Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor. Your point is that women should act respectably given the constant threat of rape. They should not dress provocatively, flirt, drink or go to strange men's apartments (or whatever you have in mind) and if they do they are partly to blame for being raped. I disagree for the same reasons about threat of violence. Women don't need to universally accept victimhood for threat of rape and adjust themselves accordingly. It's an evil and ridiculous suggestion and that's why there's no word for it.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,200
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2/26/2015 3:08:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:37:46 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
These are things that, while the victim is innocent, they aren't without blame for their circumstance.

How about jeopardous?
Khaos_Mage
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2/26/2015 3:11:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM, Garbanza wrote:
This is about two types of victimhood. If you're a violent person, then the people you assault are victims, but also according to you, everyone else should tiptoe around you, anticipate your moods and avoid trigger topics. That is, their speech and actions should be restricted because of your threat of violence. I disagree because controlling people like that through threat of violence (whether deliberate or not) is wrong.

Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor.
Not only rape, as it applies to all of that, but yes, you caught me :)

Your point is that women should act respectably given the constant threat of rape. They should not dress provocatively, flirt, drink or go to strange men's apartments (or whatever you have in mind) and if they do they are partly to blame for being raped.
....and then you lost me. So close, because you cannot remember I don't believe that, although some of those things are risky.

I disagree for the same reasons about threat of violence. Women don't need to universally accept victimhood for threat of rape and adjust themselves accordingly. It's an evil and ridiculous suggestion and that's why there's no word for it.
It's not an issue of accepting victimhood, but realizing the risks.
Throwing your hands up and say "why me?" is uncalled for in some cases, and that is what I want a word for. And not just rape, but any crime, like the ones listed.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 3:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 3:08:39 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:37:46 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
These are things that, while the victim is innocent, they aren't without blame for their circumstance.

How about jeopardous?

I like it!!
I think that works.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 3:16:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And how can I go without talking about rape when people are trying to blame a movie for a rape at a university in Chicago? It is odd there is not more outrage about that, but maybe there is on websites focused on it.
My work here is, finally, done.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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2/26/2015 3:41:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:37:46 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:30:13 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:25:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 2:14:29 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

The world isn't going to adjust itself to accommodate your bad temper. Your fault

Way to miss the entire point :/

Oh? How so? I felt like I responding to the topic exactly how you intended.
I'm not asking the world to accommodate me.
The man knew what would happen. So, his action caused my reaction. This is not to say he was in the wrong or broke the law, as I clearly did. However, is he wholly innocent in his broken jaw? He KNEW, or at least very reasonably could anticipate the risk, of what would happen.

This is what I am trying to express: his fault in asking for it.
Similar examples:
leaving your car running and someone steals it
giving your bank account information online to some Nigerian prince
marrying an abusive boyfriend

These are things that, while the victim is innocent, they aren't without blame for their circumstance.

Well first off...It seems didn't miss your point. So lets agree that we are both on the same page before we start discussing things.

Let me explain. You know that you can't legally hit someone for insulting your sister. No matter how much you love her. That's obvious. That alone automatically makes it your fault. His actions didn't cause you to do anything. No one can make you do anything. (generally, lets leave out direct threats which doesn't seem to be the case) It is your short temper that caused you to hit him.

Are you going to hit a random stranger if they insults your sister? Lets say you've already asked him not to because you would hit him, would you? People will be people, friends included. You can't expect everyone to not insult your sister just because it makes you angry. You friends, technically, has the right to insult whoever he wants. You, however do not have to right to hit him.

My answer applies to all but the Nigerian prince example. That one is more so about someone purposely trying to trick you. No one is responsible for your actions. That's what I meant by the world isn't going to accommodate your bad temper,
Df0512
Posts: 966
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2/26/2015 3:43:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 2:24:11 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:53:39 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:32:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:29:21 PM, YYW wrote:

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister. While I made the choice to hit you, you brought it on yourself."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

"brought it on to yourself" sounds like he deserved it, though. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Again, this is more for an onlooker standpoint. Imagine if you said "he brought it on to himself" and someone else said "Are you saying he was asking for it?".
ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!! There is not a good word that can eliminate the second question, is there?

"Look. You knew what would happen if you insulted my sister, and with that knowledge you made a choice to insult my sister."

Again, I would not, were I in your situation, discuss it with him.

Okay, let's try something else.
A black man makes it a point to visit a KKK rally in a rural area. He is found out and is, obviously, killed.
That was a very stupid risk he took. I want to say it is his fault he died, but that sounds like I am excusing the Klansmen.
How can I phrase this to show the black man is responsible for his death....but not really responsible, since the Klan are bastards?
I am not even sure my question makes sense...

Same for this one. There is no "obviously, killed". A black man has the right to go anywhere he wants in this country. Now unless he is trespassing or being threatening, they can't shoot him. Not to say it is a good idea for black people to go to clan rallies though. Because that is silly.
intellectuallyprimitive
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2/26/2015 4:15:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

Accountability
^

The individual provoked a punch, yet the other individual did not abstain from striking the other.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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2/26/2015 8:28:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 1:11:23 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 1:05:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:38:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Assume the following:

You and I know each other well enough to know the following:
I have a very short temper
I get into fights easily
I am very protective of my sister, and have gotten into fights about her before

You decide to, for whatever reason, insult my sister.
I respond as predicted, and punch you in the face.

Now, I just assaulted you, but you knew better than to insult my sister. It does not excuse my behavior in the least, but you knew that was a risk.
Is it your fault you got punched in the face?
Fault seems like the wrong word, but what word would be better here, to signify that you should have known better, but does not sound like you are taking away responsibility from the aggressor for the harm that befell you.

I would suggest that you avoid using legal words like "assault." The word "assault" has meaning in both civil and criminal law... bad for you.

Maybe the guy provoked you... but unless he was physically harassing your sister... you really don't want to admit to hitting the guy in any way.

My question, though, is what you want to accomplish in this...

Is the guy your friend and you want to make amends? Is the guy someone who matters to you?

The other thing I would recommend is that if you want to communicate with this guy... do it verbally (like, only talk).

Be nice about it, say something like "Hey, I know we had a disagreement but I'd like to put this behind us. Is that agreeable?"

Don't be too specific about what happened. You don't have too to resolve it.

If you insist on apologizing, say "I'm sorry for the way I acted." or something like that... without specifying that you punched the guy in the face.

This is not about me or any case that I know of. (you think so low of me :(

I want you to be able to say that the guy I hit was .....responsible?.... for getting hit by me. This is all I am trying to accomplish with this thread:
How can an onlooker describe that the guy has some blame in getting hit, because he knew what would happen?

Sorry. If the guy decided to press charges for assault, you argument would probably fail in a court of law. Having "a bad temper " is not a valid legal excuse. At very least, you would probably be sent to anger management therapy.
Khaos_Mage
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2/26/2015 8:29:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 8:28:17 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:


Sorry. If the guy decided to press charges for assault, you argument would probably fail in a court of law. Having "a bad temper " is not a valid legal excuse. At very least, you would probably be sent to anger management therapy.

Unsurprisingly, you miss the point.
My work here is, finally, done.
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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2/26/2015 8:51:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM, Garbanza wrote:
This is about two types of victimhood. If you're a violent person, then the people you assault are victims, but also according to you, everyone else should tiptoe around you, anticipate your moods and avoid trigger topics. That is, their speech and actions should be restricted because of your threat of violence. I disagree because controlling people like that through threat of violence (whether deliberate or not) is wrong.

Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor. Your point is that women should act respectably given the constant threat of rape. They should not dress provocatively, flirt, drink or go to strange men's apartments (or whatever you have in mind) and if they do they are partly to blame for being raped. I disagree for the same reasons about threat of violence. Women don't need to universally accept victimhood for threat of rape and adjust themselves accordingly. It's an evil and ridiculous suggestion and that's why there's no word for it.

I was thinking exactly all of this. You always say what I'm thinking.
Why I ignore YYW:
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Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/26/2015 9:00:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM, Garbanza wrote:
This is about two types of victimhood. If you're a violent person, then the people you assault are victims, but also according to you, everyone else should tiptoe around you, anticipate your moods and avoid trigger topics. That is, their speech and actions should be restricted because of your threat of violence. I disagree because controlling people like that through threat of violence (whether deliberate or not) is wrong.

Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor. Your point is that women should act respectably given the constant threat of rape. They should not dress provocatively, flirt, drink or go to strange men's apartments (or whatever you have in mind) and if they do they are partly to blame for being raped. I disagree for the same reasons about threat of violence. Women don't need to universally accept victimhood for threat of rape and adjust themselves accordingly. It's an evil and ridiculous suggestion and that's why there's no word for it.

http://www.quickmeme.com...
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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YYW
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2/26/2015 9:11:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@Khaos

I haven't really seen you talk about rape a lot... or, really... with any degree of considerable detail. There are lots of members who do seem to have a considerable interest in the subject, which I do not understand, but I think Garbanzo is confusing you with other members.

I also think that what she said assumes that the means by which you interact to provocation in the form of insults to your sister is a general indicator of your behavior beyond this. While I think that no rational person could draw that conclusion from what you said, not all people are rational... but, perhaps you might consider clarifying to her that the extent to which you react to provocation in this way is not comparable to all, most, or even a statistically significant percentage of your interactions with the rest of mankind.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/26/2015 9:23:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 9:11:13 PM, YYW wrote:
@Khaos

I haven't really seen you talk about rape a lot... or, really... with any degree of considerable detail. There are lots of members who do seem to have a considerable interest in the subject, which I do not understand, but I think Garbanzo is confusing you with other members.

I also think that what she said assumes that the means by which you interact to provocation in the form of insults to your sister is a general indicator of your behavior beyond this. While I think that no rational person could draw that conclusion from what you said, not all people are rational... but, perhaps you might consider clarifying to her that the extent to which you react to provocation in this way is not comparable to all, most, or even a statistically significant percentage of your interactions with the rest of mankind.

At 2/26/2015 3:11:57 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor.
Not only rape, as it applies to all of that, but yes, you caught me :)
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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YYW
Posts: 36,233
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2/26/2015 9:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 9:23:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:11:13 PM, YYW wrote:
@Khaos

I haven't really seen you talk about rape a lot... or, really... with any degree of considerable detail. There are lots of members who do seem to have a considerable interest in the subject, which I do not understand, but I think Garbanzo is confusing you with other members.

I also think that what she said assumes that the means by which you interact to provocation in the form of insults to your sister is a general indicator of your behavior beyond this. While I think that no rational person could draw that conclusion from what you said, not all people are rational... but, perhaps you might consider clarifying to her that the extent to which you react to provocation in this way is not comparable to all, most, or even a statistically significant percentage of your interactions with the rest of mankind.

At 2/26/2015 3:11:57 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/26/2015 3:05:21 PM, Garbanza wrote:
Since it's unlike you to go for long without discussing rape, I'm assuming this is a rape metaphor.
Not only rape, as it applies to all of that, but yes, you caught me :)

Sounded like sarcasm to me...