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has political correctness gone too far?

Rubikx
Posts: 226
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3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/15/2015 11:07:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM, Rubikx wrote:
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.

Only white people think it is racist to call a black person black. They are trying to be offended on behalf of blacks. Just ignore the idiots.

There might be like 2 black people offended by it on the planet, not a significant enough statistic to give a shitt about.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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3/17/2015 4:01:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM, Rubikx wrote:
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.

That's ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with calling someone black, white or brown, it all depends on the context in which the person is using such words.

For example.
Good - "The black people were protesting."

Bad - "The blacks sure love rioting."

Like all words, how you use them matters and can mean the difference between a harmless statement to a racist generalization. Most times I feel a lot of right wing individuals don't know the difference, and are quick to label someone "politically correct" after being called out for saying something overtly racist.

But yeah most people don't care what you call them, just be respectful.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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3/17/2015 4:18:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

I agree to a certain extent. It's better to lean PC but not to the extreme. Most people who usually complain about political correctness are usually the ones who want to say discriminatory things and not have to take responsibility or face the consequences of their actions, or words. So when they are criticized for doing or saying such racist, sexist or homophobic things they label everyone who opposes them "politically correct."
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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3/17/2015 4:48:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here's the logic behind why referring to someone's skin color is potentially racist. If you were going to describe a coworker or friend (A) who is black, at what point would you mention that he/she is black? Is it the first descriptor? The third? Sixth? Now do that same exercise for a white coworker or friend (B). This varies for everyone, but for most people, black is the first or second descriptor for A and white is unlikely to be mentioned at all for B. This is an example of mild, latent racism, and it happens for people of all races in the US. The underlying idea is that white is regular/normal and non-white is different/other. That latent feeling, being subconscious, tends to permeate everything about a person's attitude.

So, if you're the kind of person who mentions everyone's skin color, all the time, regardless of their race, then using the descriptor might not be inherently racist. That is, as long as skin color is relevant to the topic.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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3/17/2015 5:05:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM, Rubikx wrote:
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.

Yea that's silly. I'd actually prefer to be called black. I'm not African so I don't necessarily agree with being called African American.
Fly
Posts: 2,045
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3/17/2015 5:36:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Context matters... a lot. This is a fact that insensitive people can't seem to wrap their minds around. I don't know anybody who thinks that "black" is a racist word in and of itself. However, context can change that.

There was a Saturday Night Live sketch where a guy referred to a coworker as "black Joe." That is a racist context (inside the larger, humorous context of the sketch itself) because it doesn't add anything meaningful. Another example would be saying, "So and so is my black friend."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/18/2015 4:52:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

I disagree. PC is used to stifle conversation, to win arguments. You can show a liberal all the peer reviewed research yu want, but if the results of that research aren't "PC", argument lost.

PC is a cheap way to win arguments when the facts aren't on your side.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/18/2015 4:54:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:48:06 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Here's the logic behind why referring to someone's skin color is potentially racist. If you were going to describe a coworker or friend (A) who is black, at what point would you mention that he/she is black? Is it the first descriptor? The third? Sixth? Now do that same exercise for a white coworker or friend (B). This varies for everyone, but for most people, black is the first or second descriptor for A and white is unlikely to be mentioned at all for B. This is an example of mild, latent racism, and it happens for people of all races in the US. The underlying idea is that white is regular/normal and non-white is different/other. That latent feeling, being subconscious, tends to permeate everything about a person's attitude.

So, if you're the kind of person who mentions everyone's skin color, all the time, regardless of their race, then using the descriptor might not be inherently racist. That is, as long as skin color is relevant to the topic.

If you are white the black descriptor comes earlier than the white descriptor, if you are black the white descriptir comes earlier. I think it is entirely dependent on your skin color, your audience's skin color, and the presumptions of everyone in the conversation.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/18/2015 4:55:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 5:36:19 PM, Fly wrote:
Context matters... a lot. This is a fact that insensitive people can't seem to wrap their minds around. I don't know anybody who thinks that "black" is a racist word in and of itself. However, context can change that.

There was a Saturday Night Live sketch where a guy referred to a coworker as "black Joe." That is a racist context (inside the larger, humorous context of the sketch itself) because it doesn't add anything meaningful. Another example would be saying, "So and so is my black friend."

I worked with 3 Mikes. I called one black mike, one retard mike and one ginger mike. It was easier to differentiate them that way.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,179
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3/18/2015 7:31:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM, Rubikx wrote:
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.

I was on a camping trip, and a friend of a guest was there.
I played some Richard Pryor tracks, and this person was offended at the 'racist humor'.
He was non-Caucasian, non-black, if that matters.
I would assume the same reaction if it were Chris Rock, another of my favored comedians, who may be more familiar to the younger posters.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/18/2015 7:40:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

False dichotomy is false dichotomy.

Anyone who spends time thinking about and coming up with politically correct terms has too much time on their hands.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/18/2015 7:43:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:48:06 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Here's the logic behind why referring to someone's skin color is potentially racist. If you were going to describe a coworker or friend (A) who is black, at what point would you mention that he/she is black? Is it the first descriptor? The third? Sixth? Now do that same exercise for a white coworker or friend (B). This varies for everyone, but for most people, black is the first or second descriptor for A and white is unlikely to be mentioned at all for B. This is an example of mild, latent racism, and it happens for people of all races in the US. The underlying idea is that white is regular/normal and non-white is different/other. That latent feeling, being subconscious, tends to permeate everything about a person's attitude.

So, if you're the kind of person who mentions everyone's skin color, all the time, regardless of their race, then using the descriptor might not be inherently racist. That is, as long as skin color is relevant to the topic.

It's a numbers game. Describing white people by their skin color doesn't tell me who I'm looking for in a majority white environment (AKA 70% of the US). Just like if I went to a black barber shop being told to go see the black guy would not tell me who I'm looking for.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/18/2015 7:45:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

How can there be too much racism?
Fly
Posts: 2,045
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3/18/2015 9:36:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 4:52:05 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

I disagree. PC is used to stifle conversation, to win arguments. You can show a liberal all the peer reviewed research yu want, but if the results of that research aren't "PC", argument lost.

PC is a cheap way to win arguments when the facts aren't on your side.

I have never seen conversation stifled this way, nor have I seen arguments won this way-- nor have I seen honest research that lost an argument because it wasn't PC. What I have seen is a person who thinks he has facts on his side when he does not...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/18/2015 9:39:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 9:36:14 AM, Fly wrote:
At 3/18/2015 4:52:05 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

I disagree. PC is used to stifle conversation, to win arguments. You can show a liberal all the peer reviewed research yu want, but if the results of that research aren't "PC", argument lost.

PC is a cheap way to win arguments when the facts aren't on your side.

I have never seen conversation stifled this way, nor have I seen arguments won this way-- nor have I seen honest research that lost an argument because it wasn't PC. What I have seen is a person who thinks he has facts on his side when he does not...

"Check your privilege" is a pretty common phrase used to shut down debate.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/18/2015 9:42:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 9:36:14 AM, Fly wrote:
At 3/18/2015 4:52:05 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

I disagree. PC is used to stifle conversation, to win arguments. You can show a liberal all the peer reviewed research yu want, but if the results of that research aren't "PC", argument lost.

PC is a cheap way to win arguments when the facts aren't on your side.

I have never seen conversation stifled this way, nor have I seen arguments won this way-- nor have I seen honest research that lost an argument because it wasn't PC. What I have seen is a person who thinks he has facts on his side when he does not...

You haven't had enough conversations with Kbub.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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3/18/2015 10:44:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 7:45:29 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

How can there be too much racism?

Because you're a troll
SirCrona
Posts: 139
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3/18/2015 10:44:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:13:04 PM, Rubikx wrote:
I'm not saying political correctness is bad. But I have seen it a lot lately where people take it too far.
For example, a friend of mine said it was racist to call a person black. I don't see how thats racist. or have had people ask "is that friend of yours south asian (indian)". I have lots of friends from india and none of them have a problem with calling them brown.
But for some reason people seem to think its extremely rude to call people black, brown, white or whatever. Maybe its just me but I don't see this as rude or racist.

Political correctness is just dumb. Those people who think that it's rude to call someone black are in all likelihood whiter than albino skinheads wearing polar bear suits in the middle of Antarctica, so what they have to say on what you call black people doesn't matter much.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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3/18/2015 10:50:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 7:40:00 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

False dichotomy is false dichotomy.
Anyone who spends time thinking about and coming up with politically correct terms has too much time on their hands.

Not really a false dichotomy. PC terms are used to avoid racist ones. So I'd much rather live in a society where people call each other "African-American" or "Hispanic-American" as opposed to n*gger or wetback. Do I have a problem with black or brown? Not really.

But it's interesting that you think people who make an effort to not be offensive are just wasting their time.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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3/18/2015 11:16:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 7:43:25 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:48:06 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Here's the logic behind why referring to someone's skin color is potentially racist. If you were going to describe a coworker or friend (A) who is black, at what point would you mention that he/she is black? Is it the first descriptor? The third? Sixth? Now do that same exercise for a white coworker or friend (B). This varies for everyone, but for most people, black is the first or second descriptor for A and white is unlikely to be mentioned at all for B. This is an example of mild, latent racism, and it happens for people of all races in the US. The underlying idea is that white is regular/normal and non-white is different/other. That latent feeling, being subconscious, tends to permeate everything about a person's attitude.

So, if you're the kind of person who mentions everyone's skin color, all the time, regardless of their race, then using the descriptor might not be inherently racist. That is, as long as skin color is relevant to the topic.

It's a numbers game. Describing white people by their skin color doesn't tell me who I'm looking for in a majority white environment (AKA 70% of the US). Just like if I went to a black barber shop being told to go see the black guy would not tell me who I'm looking for.

I get that. It has to do with that being one of the first characteristics that a person jumps to, though. There are dozens of ways to describe people that don't involve their skin color. Even in a more balanced situation, most folks are more likely to mention race when describing someone who is black compared to someone who is white. It's revealing of what stands out in a person's mind: white is regular/normal, black/brown is not.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/19/2015 5:38:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:50:37 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 3/18/2015 7:40:00 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

False dichotomy is false dichotomy.
Anyone who spends time thinking about and coming up with politically correct terms has too much time on their hands.

Not really a false dichotomy. PC terms are used to avoid racist ones. So I'd much rather live in a society where people call each other "African-American" or "Hispanic-American" as opposed to n*gger or wetback. Do I have a problem with black or brown? Not really.

But it's interesting that you think people who make an effort to not be offensive are just wasting their time.

It is a false dichotomy. PC terms are used to avoid racist terms to the extreme. We have more options than African American or the N word. We can say black, it's neither PC nor racist.

People will always be offended by random sh!t even when no offense was meant. Sugar coating reality does no one any good. Take fat people for example, they are objectively unhealthy, yet they have there own fat ideology that argues for fat acceptance, that fat is beautiful. And they'll get pissed if their doctor points out how fat hinders medical treatment.

Another asissine area of offense is "cultural appropriation" if you wear dreads and you're not black you're racist (despite dreads not being monopolized by blacks). Pretty much if you do anything that is not stereotypical to your race you're stealing from other cultures. It's bull sh!t. And yes, people who spend their time trying to make everything safe so every ones little feelings don't get hurt, infantalizing victems, being offended on behalf of others, yes those people need to spend their time better.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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3/19/2015 5:39:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:16:22 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 3/18/2015 7:43:25 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:48:06 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Here's the logic behind why referring to someone's skin color is potentially racist. If you were going to describe a coworker or friend (A) who is black, at what point would you mention that he/she is black? Is it the first descriptor? The third? Sixth? Now do that same exercise for a white coworker or friend (B). This varies for everyone, but for most people, black is the first or second descriptor for A and white is unlikely to be mentioned at all for B. This is an example of mild, latent racism, and it happens for people of all races in the US. The underlying idea is that white is regular/normal and non-white is different/other. That latent feeling, being subconscious, tends to permeate everything about a person's attitude.

So, if you're the kind of person who mentions everyone's skin color, all the time, regardless of their race, then using the descriptor might not be inherently racist. That is, as long as skin color is relevant to the topic.

It's a numbers game. Describing white people by their skin color doesn't tell me who I'm looking for in a majority white environment (AKA 70% of the US). Just like if I went to a black barber shop being told to go see the black guy would not tell me who I'm looking for.

I get that. It has to do with that being one of the first characteristics that a person jumps to, though. There are dozens of ways to describe people that don't involve their skin color. Even in a more balanced situation, most folks are more likely to mention race when describing someone who is black compared to someone who is white. It's revealing of what stands out in a person's mind: white is regular/normal, black/brown is not.

You're making an unnecessary normative claim. You mistake being unique as a judgment call as not normal. Skin color is one of the easiest markers on a person.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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3/19/2015 3:38:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 5:38:03 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:50:37 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 3/18/2015 7:40:00 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/17/2015 4:12:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Too much political correctness is infinitely better than too much racism. Anyone who complains about PC has too much time on their hands

False dichotomy is false dichotomy.
Anyone who spends time thinking about and coming up with politically correct terms has too much time on their hands.

Not really a false dichotomy. PC terms are used to avoid racist ones. So I'd much rather live in a society where people call each other "African-American" or "Hispanic-American" as opposed to n*gger or wetback. Do I have a problem with black or brown? Not really.

But it's interesting that you think people who make an effort to not be offensive are just wasting their time.

It is a false dichotomy. PC terms are used to avoid racist terms to the extreme. We have more options than African American or the N word. We can say black, it's neither PC nor racist.
My point is that there's nothing wrong with using African American. There is a lot wrong with using n*gger. Therefore, too much PC is preferable to too much racism.
People will always be offended by random sh!t even when no offense was meant. Sugar coating reality does no one any good. Take fat people for example, they are objectively unhealthy, yet they have there own fat ideology that argues for fat acceptance, that fat is beautiful. And they'll get pissed if their doctor points out how fat hinders medical treatment.
This is completely irrelevant. Being overweight is a health condition, not a cultural identity. Despite what you seem to think, the people trying to normalize obesity are NOT the same thing as people advocating respect for minorities.
Another asissine area of offense is "cultural appropriation" if you wear dreads and you're not black you're racist (despite dreads not being monopolized by blacks). Pretty much if you do anything that is not stereotypical to your race you're stealing from other cultures. It's bull sh!t. And yes, people who spend their time trying to make everything safe so every ones little feelings don't get hurt, infantalizing victems, being offended on behalf of others, yes those people need to spend their time better.
Clearly you don't understand what cultural appropriation really is. It isn't just wearing dreads if you're not black. A better example is a white college student dressing up in face paint and a feathered headdress and whooping and hollering around waving a tomahawk as part of a halloween costume. This is offensive because it is making a mockery of Native American sacred customs and practices.
For black people in America, cultural appropriation has meant things like inventing their own styles of music and dance, only to have white artists essentially rip them off and make tons of money by making it accessible to "mainstream culture." Elvis did it with rock'n'roll, Miley Cyrus did it with twerking, with tons of other examples in between. Black artists often get little to no credit for their contributions, and then when the first white person does it, they are hailed as an innovator.

Ultimately, political correctness is about treating other people's culture with respect, which shouldn't be that hard or controversial, assuming you're a decent human being.
pj43176
Posts: 306
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3/20/2015 7:31:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My own perception of political correctness, has to do with acknowledging what words or phrases offend a portion of society, and then, like a friend might do for another friend, just agreeing not to use words or phrases that are offensive to that portion of society of that individual person. And who ought to know best about what is offensive than the person or group that feels offended? It would be stupid to assume that those claiming offense are really lying, or motivated by some desire to make us hyper self-conscious? If someone is offended enough to actually make an issue out of a word or phrase, then we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and should refrain from using those words and phrases--just as we might ask them to refrain from offending us with words or slang terms that might offend ourselves! Does it sometimes seem that extreme types of sensitivity are driving others feelings of offense---perhaps sometimes it does! But why not honor the wishes of another anyway, no matter what we think? After all, we have not had the experiences that the other person has had, and we seldom have personal experience with the culturally defined context in which such offending terms have been used.

It's really just a matter of simple courtesy! Screaming to high heaven about the personal inconvenience experienced by such a simple consideration for others, does not really involve personal persecution, nor does it significantly inconvenience anyone when someone else, merely asks that his or her wishes to be respected. By the same token, what doesn't offend us, may be truly offensive to another. And, in the end, we are not the ones who should judge the feelings of others---for obvious reasons!
Welfare-Worker
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3/21/2015 9:58:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 7:31:47 PM, pj43176 wrote:
My own perception of political correctness, has to do with acknowledging what words or phrases offend a portion of society, and then, like a friend might do for another friend, just agreeing not to use words or phrases that are offensive to that :portion of society of that individual person.

Well I am not going to agree with this......but wait....

And who ought to know best about what is offensive than the person or group that :feels offended?

Well, yes, now we are getting closer to agreement.
I am still not positive we are on the same page, be we are getting close.
I suspect that with an extended discussion, we will agree, right down the line, but perhaps not.

But first, this issue of 'Let's respect the desire of others to not be offended by certain language, and therefor not use that language.'
In my example as posted above, non-blacks, are offended by the language of black comedians - for being 'racist'.
I do not deny that blacks can be racist, even against blacks - that is not my argument.
I do not deny that non-blacks can take black humor, and turn it around in ways not intended, to make it racist - also not my argument.

I am saying that comedians can find humor in racial issues, or express humor in what might be considered racist terms, under other circumstances.
If my non-black friends are racially offended by black comedians (for having a laugh on some blacks), I say, too bad, they have gone too far.

It would be stupid to assume that those claiming offense are really lying, or motivated by some desire to make us hyper self-conscious? If someone is offended enough to actually make an issue out of a word or phrase, then we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and should refrain from using those words and phrases--just as we might ask them to refrain from offending us with words or slang terms that might offend ourselves! Does it sometimes seem that extreme types of sensitivity are driving others feelings of offense---perhaps sometimes it does! But why not honor the wishes of another anyway, no matter what we think? After all, we have not had the experiences that the other person has had, and we seldom have personal experience with the culturally defined context in which such offending terms have been used.

It's really just a matter of simple courtesy! Screaming to high heaven about the personal inconvenience experienced by such a simple consideration for others, does not really involve personal persecution, nor does it significantly inconvenience anyone when someone else, merely asks that his or her wishes to be respected. By the same token, what doesn't offend us, may be truly offensive to another. And, in the end, we are not the ones who should judge the feelings of others---for obvious reasons!

Where we might not agree.
This is not about race, but about other minority groups.
In the U.S.A. there is a group of people who live completely and totally from welfare benefits and programs. 100%.
As my user ID implies, I was the welfare worker for such persons, I know how their needs are met.
Some of them (not all), are offended at being called 'welfare (anything)'.
Some of them want to be called 'disabled', but that does not always apply, so they want to be called 'parent of a disabled child'.
That does not always apply, so maybe they will settle for 'unemployed', even though they have never had a job for over one week in their life.
Any word, except 'welfare'.
I am sorry, but if you are offended at being called 'welfare recipient', when you are over age, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and have lived your whole life receiving welfare, that is your problem, and I will not adjust my language.

Some of the doublespeak higher ups decided 'welfare recipient' has a negative connotation, so we were required to change our language to 'welfare customer'.
We were often reminded to not treat them as 'recipients', but rather as 'customers'.
This may be a subtle difference, but it changes actions as well as language.
SirCrona
Posts: 139
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3/21/2015 11:48:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:38:45 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Ultimately, political correctness is about treating other people's culture with respect, which shouldn't be that hard or controversial, assuming you're a decent human being.

Are you kidding me? PC does the opposite of respect culture. Alright, let me break this down: PC term for an American black guy? African-American. PC term for an American latino/a? Hispanic-American. PC term for an Asian person? Asian American. PC term for white? Caucasian. Do you see anything wrong with this? The first few terms were statements made based on physical appearance that had implications far beyond skin color. The last one only had implications about skin color. Do you not see how PC is problematic? Race and culture are two very different things, man. If anything, it ignores culture and generalizes everyone (who isn't white, that is) into groups based on their skin color. PC is nothing but white people who feel sorta bad about racism trying to make racism about them. If you're describing someone's race, you describe their skin color. If you're describing someone's culture, you describe their background, lineage, and origin. But THIS is just looking at one aspect of a person and making assumptions and generalizations about everything about them. I got this one, Alex Trebeck- What is Racist? Oh, sorry, they were looking for "What is Political Correctness?" Such an easy mistake to make.

/drops mic
pj43176
Posts: 306
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3/21/2015 12:46:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 9:58:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 3/20/2015 7:31:47 PM, pj43176 wrote:
My own perception of political correctness, has to do with acknowledging what words or phrases offend a portion of society, and then, like a friend might do for another friend, just agreeing not to use words or phrases that are offensive to that :portion of society of that individual person.

Well I am not going to agree with this......but wait....

And who ought to know best about what is offensive than the person or group that :feels offended?

Well, yes, now we are getting closer to agreement.
I am still not positive we are on the same page, be we are getting close.
I suspect that with an extended discussion, we will agree, right down the line, but perhaps not.

But first, this issue of 'Let's respect the desire of others to not be offended by certain language, and therefore not use that language.'
In my example as posted above, non-blacks, are offended by the language of black comedians - for being 'racist'.
I do not deny that blacks can be racist, even against blacks - that is not my argument.
I do not deny that non-blacks can take black humor, and turn it around in ways not intended, to make it racist - also not my argument.

I am saying that comedians can find humor in racial issues, or express humor in what might be considered racist terms, under other circumstances.
If my non-black friends are racially offended by black comedians (for having a laugh on some blacks), I say, too bad, they have gone too far.





It would be stupid to assume that those claiming offense are really lying, or motivated by some desire to make us hyper self-conscious? If someone is offended enough to actually make an issue out of a word or phrase, then we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and should refrain from using those words and phrases--just as we might ask them to refrain from offending us with words or slang terms that might offend ourselves! Does it sometimes seem that extreme types of sensitivity are driving others feelings of offense---perhaps sometimes it does! But why not honor the wishes of another anyway, no matter what we think? After all, we have not had the experiences that the other person has had, and we seldom have personal experience with the culturally defined context in which such offending terms have been used.

It's really just a matter of simple courtesy! Screaming to high heaven about the personal inconvenience experienced by such a simple consideration for others, does not really involve personal persecution, nor does it significantly inconvenience anyone when someone else, merely asks that his or her wishes to be respected. By the same token, what doesn't offend us, may be truly offensive to another. And, in the end, we are not the ones who should judge the feelings of others---for obvious reasons!

Where we might not agree.
This is not about race, but about other minority groups.
In the U.S.A. there is a group of people who live completely and totally from welfare benefits and programs. 100%.
As my user ID implies, I was the welfare worker for such persons, I know how their needs are met.
Some of them (not all), are offended at being called 'welfare (anything)'.
Some of them want to be called 'disabled', but that does not always apply, so they want to be called 'parent of a disabled child'.
That does not always apply, so maybe they will settle for 'unemployed', even though they have never had a job for over one week in their life.
Any word, except 'welfare'.
I am sorry, but if you are offended at being called 'welfare recipient', when you are over age, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and have lived your whole life receiving welfare, that is your problem, and I will not adjust my language.

Some of the doublespeak higher ups decided 'welfare recipient' has a negative connotation, so we were required to change our language to 'welfare customer'.
We were often reminded to not treat them as 'recipients', but rather as 'customers'.
This may be a subtle difference, but it changes actions as well as language.

I am not black, so I can't say if black people intend to be racists when using humor about black or white issues, and I know that context and sort of (in house private humor) means a lot. But if some black people are offended by what others of the same race are not, then as a society I think the point about what is offensive should be decided on which group (those offended or those not) is the largest and most directly implicated. On a personal level, it should be about friends not offending friends, or else finding new friends, or, putting aside one's personal dislikes of the others behavior. As a white person I have often heard my white friends use language or humor that I consider not to be appropriate, but since the relationship is important, I have decided not to make an issue of it--of course someone else, in possibly a different circumstance, may decide that conveying their objections is of extreme and overriding importance.

I grew up as the descendant of Finnish Immigrants whose parents and friends often told dumb "Finlander jokes," we did this to show how absurd, and therefore how funny those jokes were, and also that we knew too much about our own intelligence to be offended. But I think I'd feel a bit funny if American Finlanders had had a long and intense period of persecution at the hands of other Americans--such as those who might boast of having ancestors on the Mayflower, which then somehow bestows upon them some superior status. It's one thing to share an "in joke," among friends, but I would think quite another, to hear people on the evening news talking about how dumb or ignorant Finlanders are, with derision. In such cases, history and context are everything, and again I would say one should give the other party the benefit of the doubt for really being offended, and not just making up or exaggerating his or her offense--either way, it wouldn't hurt me to comply with their wishes.

As far as the term "welfare recipients," goes. One pertinent point might be found in Mitt Romney's ill-fated description of the 47% of Americans who "only care about living on Welfare," which is somehow supposed to be a gravy train provided by and for, only democrats of liberal left leaners who are really just lazy. The truth is that, as far as Social Security goes, this is often a benefit earned by those who paid into the system for years--many of whom also want security for their wives and children--not just a handout. And even when it is collected by the disabled or the elderly, often many of them have spent decades in previous times working or paying taxes in the country which has promised to be provided them these benefits. There may be some that don't give a damn about working, but my feeling is that the vast majority of workers are proud, and would feel themselves crazy if not accepting any honest work with decent pay. There are also many disability recipients, who want very badly to work, but just cannot handle certain aspects of work, that able bodied or able minded people, can. Personally I can understand how using such a term, has a negative way of stereotyping others and, while I don't see the importance of being called customers rather than recipients, once again, it's no skin off of my nose if I simply refrain from calling someone else what they don't want to be called and refraining from using language they might think is derogatory. After all, there ARE people who unfairly denigrate those who cannot work, and Republicans, as well as people from all walks of life aren't clairvoyant, and so no one can know when they personally, might need help. So again, who am I to judge what should or shouldn't offend another?