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Affirmative Action vs. Color Blindness

bsh1
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3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.
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Skepsikyma
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3/18/2015 10:35:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

Color blindness when it comes to positions for which one must be qualified to any significant degree. The position should go to the most qualified candidate.

When it comes to aid and educational resources, I see it as useful for evening the playing field. Though aid should also have standards attached to it.

This means, especially, less crowded schools in mostly black areas. The state of education in the inner cities is deplorable.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
thett3
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3/18/2015 10:36:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

I'd be careful defining AA in this way. Asians have faced tons of discrimination in this country, but affirmative action in college admissions at least makes being an Asian a disadvantage towards your chances of being admitted.

A more realistic definition of affirmative action is a policy that benefits certain *favored* groups who suffered/suffer from discrimination. Despite centuries of discrimination against Asian people and Jews, there's no affirmative action for these groups.


Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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3/18/2015 10:43:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:36:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

I'd be careful defining AA in this way. Asians have faced tons of discrimination in this country, but affirmative action in college admissions at least makes being an Asian a disadvantage towards your chances of being admitted.

A more realistic definition of affirmative action is a policy that benefits certain *favored* groups who suffered/suffer from discrimination. Despite centuries of discrimination against Asian people and Jews, there's no affirmative action for these groups.

I mean, my definition doesn't say AA applies to all groups who've been traditionally discriminated against. I was just going for something very generic. But, I see your point.
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thett3
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3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:43:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:36:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

I'd be careful defining AA in this way. Asians have faced tons of discrimination in this country, but affirmative action in college admissions at least makes being an Asian a disadvantage towards your chances of being admitted.

A more realistic definition of affirmative action is a policy that benefits certain *favored* groups who suffered/suffer from discrimination. Despite centuries of discrimination against Asian people and Jews, there's no affirmative action for these groups.

I mean, my definition doesn't say AA applies to all groups who've been traditionally discriminated against. I was just going for something very generic. But, I see your point.

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

Of course, I'm biased towards this sort of favoritism as a first generation college student lol.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Varrack
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3/18/2015 10:53:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

Color blindness. AA is unfair because it admits people of an ethnic background regardless of whether they are or have been discriminated against before. However, background should be taken into consideration (coming from an easy school with a 4.0 versus a hard school with a 3.5) as long as race is not a factor. There are better ways to level the playing field than AA.
bsh1
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3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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thett3
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3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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3/18/2015 11:06:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

Agreed.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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WillYouMarryMe
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3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.
thett3
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3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
WillYouMarryMe
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3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD
thett3
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3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bossyburrito
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3/18/2015 11:52:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is no justification for awarding positions to people who are less qualified than others (unless, of course, money is involved). Merit and benefit to the institution in question should be the only things that are taken into account.

If you haven't committed racism, you shouldn't need to pay for other people's actions. You are not them and cannot apologize for them.
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briantheliberal
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3/19/2015 12:49:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

I am very neutral on this issue, but I tend to lean in favor of AA because there are many factors to consider with this issue. First of all, women also benefit from AA, not just ethnic minorities, in fact, white women are the primary beneficiaries of AA and thus, so are white men. How? White women receive the benefits of AA, and because they are also more like to marry a person of their own race, socioeconomically speaking, that benefits their spouse as well, more so than minorities. In fact, a study was conducted, and white people who were otherwise against AA quickly changed their minds when they realized how much they benefited from it compared to minorities, which I personally think is hypocritical and very telling of how messed up people are when they are quick to point out how unfair something is when it's primary goal is to help others, until they figure out they also benefit from it, more so than the people it was originally intended for.

http://ideas.time.com...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

And not only this, in regards to ethnic background, things are also far from being equal. Blacks and Latino households, in proportion to white and Asian households, receive less income. The median income for Asian households is $68,636, for white households $57,009, and for black and Latino households $33,321 and $39,005 respectively. People in higher income homes are more likely to do better educationally and have access to better opportunities, and are more likely to be admitted into better schools, and as a result get better jobs. Then the cycle continues. Meanwhile, the unemployment rate for blacks, no matter the location in the United States is disproportionately higher than whites, by over half, and this is coming from only 12% of the overall American population, and it has been this way since 1954. And what's very telling is that a white male with a criminal record is more likely to be considered by an employer than a black of Hispanic male with NO criminal record.

These are just a handful of the issues that show, even with Affirmative Action, Whites and Asians STILL have an advantage over their black and Latino counterparts. Blacks and Latinos are the ones who have to work extra hard just to catch up, not whites and Asians, because not only do they benefit from the above, they are also not subjected to negative stereotyping and racial discrimination, especially not whites. You cannot expect, after a long history of poor race relations in this country, for blacks and Latinos to somehow compete with whites and Asians. This alone proves that there is nothing "colorblind" about so called "colorblind policies" because they still favor certain groups over others and put certain groups at a disadvantage.

And before anyone says "But Asians are discriminated against too!", which this may be true to some degree, Asians weren't being systematically oppresses by whites on the same degree as other minority groups. They are also not prejudged by negative stereotyping, they are usually revered as intelligent, hardworking and good at math and science. While blacks and Latinos are assumed to be 'thugs', inherently less intelligent, lazy, moochers, thieves, criminals etc... Let's not forget many Asian Americans are descended from immigrants who excelled in their own home countries. Most are not descended from poverty, enslavement, and the era of Jim Crow laws. And the ones that are, when they come here, are usually treated like every other Asian and benefit from the Asian stereotyping and favoritism.

http://www.businessinsider.com...

http://www.washingtonpost.com...

http://csgjusticecenter.org...

As President Lyndon Johnson once said "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and say, "You are now free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair." Less than 50 years ago, Jim Crow Laws were still active, and racial discrimination by white employers and universities were commonplace, accepted and promoted by law. And even though things have improved dramatically, we all know the effects of these things don't just go away. Things are still NOT fair, not even close and the evidence is everywhere. It's your choice whether or not you see or ignore it.
Greyparrot
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3/19/2015 9:45:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
AA should always be for the good of society at large, not for splinter groups. If it fails in that, then get rid of it.

AA was great for abolishing 'separate but equal' legalized segregation.

However, continued use of AA almost certainly will end up viewed as favoritism and will promote the retardation of social integration as merit takes a backseat to color.
Khaos_Mage
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3/19/2015 10:06:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.
Actually, this is not accurate.
The corporation must have policies in place to prevent discrimination; it is not a quota. The affirmative action is to establish policies to ensure X is not not being hired/promoted simply because they are X.
The government takes things to a higher degree, by having policies designed to combat this directly. For example, having diversity targets for government contracts (e.g. the bid for work goes to a business that uses diverse owners for subcontractors). Guess what, if an X owns a business, chances are, they don't need the government to help them out.

Regardless, I have an issue with this. It presumes that X needs help, and worse, that a specific X needs help merely because they are X. By helping that specific X, you are ignoring the many X's that actually may need help, but don't we feel good as a society.
It is equally as racist to assume X is limited because of X, as it is to assume X has Y quality, because they are X.


Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

This, obviously, is the way I believe is best.
Get the best, whoever they are. Do what needs to be done, whatever the reason.
For example, don't fix inner-city schools because they are mostly black; fix them because they need to be fixed. Period.

However, government will always concern themselves with groups because that is the easiest way to divide the voters and appeal to them.
My work here is, finally, done.
Greyparrot
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3/19/2015 10:30:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Clearly there is a choice here,

As a society, we either continue to pursue AA as an arbitrary reparations tool, or we pursue unhindered integration. We can't have both.

We either pretend we are a country founded on equalizing outcomes and continue with the social theory that 'separate but equal' is a possible reality, or we admit everyone is different even within 'races,' and that this country shall provide the pursuit of opportunities for happiness for those with the ambition to do so.
popculturepooka
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3/19/2015 11:43:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Forgive the bluntness but color blindness is dumb.

https://www.psychologytoday.com...

http://www.timwise.org...

To be blind to color to be blind to the consequences of color...and there ARE real consequences of color.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Greyparrot
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3/19/2015 12:14:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Much in the same way when you ask a liberal why he does not contribute to charity, he will answer, "I voted for tax increases and I paid my taxes, I am satisfied the government can fight poverty"

Many liberal employers will also say "The government takes care of people of color through AA, so I don't need to do anything on my own."

AA strips many people of the responsibility of making personal choices to fight racism every day.

In a sense, AA has not only turned conscientious people blind to their personal responsibility to promote integration, but also fuels hatred among the more radical racist groups.

That mentality retards social integration.
Ore_Ele
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3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
thett3
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3/19/2015 1:47:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.

Yeah AA doesn't affect white people much. It typically takes spots from one minority (asians) to give to other minorities that are favored. Doesn't seem right to me.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bluesteel
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3/19/2015 2:18:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

I am in favor of colorblindness. Genetically modify all humans so we can't see color. Problem solved.

Dogs can't see color, and they're awesome. Cats *can* see color and they're a$$holes. See what I mean?

/lawyered
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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3/19/2015 2:35:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

Affirmative action ***that begins at the collegiate level*** is bad for students of color because they will be unprepared to compete (especially in curved classes), and they will experience substantially higher drop-out rates while having incurred one or two years worth of student loan debt. RoyLatham actually changed my position on this, and there is substantial research out there to suggest that he's right.

So, that means that the issue of educational inequality has to be addressed much earlier and with a much greater level of rigor than what has been done now. I would submit that Common Core was a step in the right directions, even though it was by no means a perfect system.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
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3/19/2015 3:06:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:18:56 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.

Color blindness is the idea that no government or corporate policy should consider race (or other factors like gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in policy-making. This includes not discriminating positively or negative, for or against, any groups.

I am in favor of colorblindness. Genetically modify all humans so we can't see color. Problem solved.

Dogs can't see color, and they're awesome. Cats *can* see color and they're a$$holes. See what I mean?

/lawyered

LMFAO...so true...lol...
Live Long and Prosper

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bsh1
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3/19/2015 3:11:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 10:06:47 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:30:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Which policy do you think a society ought to follow: affirmative action or color blindness?

Affirmative Action involves the use of government or corporate efforts to institute policies favoring or advantaging people form groups that traditionally suffered or suffer from discrimination. It is often seen as a type of "positive" discrimination.
Actually, this is not accurate.
The corporation must have policies in place to prevent discrimination; it is not a quota.

Preventing discrimination is color blindness. Positively discriminating is affirmative action. Affirmative action does not necessitate a quota, it could merely be a formal or informal policy of giving a preferential hearing to the person of a minority group.

The affirmative action is to establish policies to ensure X is not not being hired/promoted simply because they are X.

No, that's color blindness.

The government takes things to a higher degree, by having policies designed to combat this directly. For example, having diversity targets for government contracts (e.g. the bid for work goes to a business that uses diverse owners for subcontractors). Guess what, if an X owns a business, chances are, they don't need the government to help them out.

That's affirmative action.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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3/19/2015 3:52:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 1:47:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.


Yeah AA doesn't affect white people much. It typically takes spots from one minority (asians) to give to other minorities that are favored. Doesn't seem right to me.

Actually AA benefits white people more than anyone else.
thett3
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3/19/2015 3:53:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:52:41 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:47:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.


Yeah AA doesn't affect white people much. It typically takes spots from one minority (asians) to give to other minorities that are favored. Doesn't seem right to me.

Actually AA benefits white people more than anyone else.

Really? I didn't know that. How's that work?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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3/19/2015 3:59:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:53:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:52:41 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:47:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.


Yeah AA doesn't affect white people much. It typically takes spots from one minority (asians) to give to other minorities that are favored. Doesn't seem right to me.

Actually AA benefits white people more than anyone else.

Really? I didn't know that. How's that work?

Remember, AA is not just about color. Women also benefit from it, and thus white women are the primary beneficiaries of AA and also face less discrimination compared to other minorities who also supposedly benefit from it. As I stated above, because white women are also more likely to marry a person of their own race, socioeconomically speaking, that benefits their spouse, who is mostly likely a white male, as well, more so than minorities.

http://ideas.time.com...
thett3
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3/19/2015 4:01:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:59:04 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:53:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:52:41 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:47:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 1:44:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:27:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:25:59 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:24:15 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:22:44 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/18/2015 11:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:54:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/18/2015 10:49:46 PM, thett3 wrote:

I think a better solution is to have socioeconomic based AA. If some guy from a worthless school district in the inner city has the same SAT as me, who do you think is actually more intelligent, the one who had every advantage or the one who had nothing? You can't make those same assumptions for black people or whatever the favored race is. You can talk all you want about institutionalized discrimination, but there's no way Obama's children are anything but some of the most privileged children on the planet--but when they apply for college, their skin color will give them an incredibly boost. Those kinds of anomalies are eliminated if you make it based on something that's a better measure of advantage, like wealth.

I sympathize with that a lot.

For what racial AA is allowed to stand it should certainly be lower...a 2005 Princeton study found that being black = the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points. Being Asian = -50. And this is on the 1600 point scale...that's well over an entire standard deviation. That kind of differential just due to people skin colors is completely absurd and unfair, especially when Asian people face discrimination too

WTFFFFFF

I am now going to go cry over my prospects of getting into college.

Lol i've seen your stats, you're good dude

Did that Princeton study get numbers for all the other races too? XD

http://www.princeton.edu...

Funny thing is that if you are white, that study clearly shows that you are being denied more because of athletes and "legacies" (people who get advantages because their parents went to the school), than by blacks or other miorities.

If AA was removed, but athletes and legacies still got their advantages, the white admittance would have gone from 23.8% to 24.3%. If you take everything out so it is just merit based, the white admittance would actually go down to 23.5%.


Yeah AA doesn't affect white people much. It typically takes spots from one minority (asians) to give to other minorities that are favored. Doesn't seem right to me.

Actually AA benefits white people more than anyone else.

Really? I didn't know that. How's that work?

Remember, AA is not just about color. Women also benefit from it, and thus white women are the primary beneficiaries of AA and also face less discrimination compared to other minorities who also supposedly benefit from it. As I stated above, because white women are also more likely to marry a person of their own race, socioeconomically speaking, that benefits their spouse, who is mostly likely a white male, as well, more so than minorities.

http://ideas.time.com...

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure how much AA benefits women get, but still if the net result of AA is to further privilege white people, obviously it isn't doing its job...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right