Total Posts:508|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

CHALLENGE: Prove sexuality is NOT a choice

zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 2:12:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But sexuality is, by definition, the sexual attraction (or lack thereof) an individual experiences.

Of course you choose to take (or not take) romantic or sexual partners, but that's a behavior set that is independent of sexuality. There's a reason why we draw a distinction between celibacy (the choice to not engage in sexual conduct) and asexuality (the absence of sexual attraction to any other individual).

As to the challenge to prove that it's not a choice? My kneejerk response is simply that it isn't my burden of proof to affirm a negation. But, shelving that concern, you simply have to take firsthand accounts at face value. Honest to god, you're just going to have to trust me that it was not a choice of mine to be attracted to more than one gender. It's a simplistic response, but there is no way to ever know with certainty the thought processes that other individuals undergo. Therefore it is only appropriate to withhold judgment or the ascribing of choice to others.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 2:34:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM, zoinks wrote:
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.

If no one here proves that it is not a choice, what impact does that have, in your mind, on whether it actually is a choice?
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 2:47:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:12:24 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
But sexuality is, by definition, the sexual attraction (or lack thereof) an individual experiences.

Sexuality encompasses more than sexual attraction or it serves no fundamental purpose to even call it sexuality, since sexual attraction already suffices.

Arguing over semantics isn't going to help you prove anything here.


Of course you choose to take (or not take) romantic or sexual partners, but that's a behavior set that is independent of sexuality.

So your argument is that sexuality is only one aspect of partner choice rather than the entirety of it? How do you justify this?

There's a reason why we draw a distinction between celibacy (the choice to not engage in sexual conduct) and asexuality (the absence of sexual attraction to any other individual).

Except asexuality doesn't necessarily have to be a lack of attraction - it can simply be lack of action or pursuit of a partner.


As to the challenge to prove that it's not a choice? My kneejerk response is simply that it isn't my burden of proof to affirm a negation.

That's why it's been placed as a challenge. I don't want anyone crying and whining that it isn't on them to prove anything because they know they can't get it done.

But, shelving that concern, you simply have to take firsthand accounts at face value. Honest to god, you're just going to have to trust me that it was not a choice of mine to be attracted to more than one gender.

First, I don't have to trust you at all. I don't know you, and have no reason to trust you. So you'll obviously have to try harder on this one.

Second, even if that were the case, I'm not talking about attraction here, but all the factors which encompass choice of romantic and/or sexual partner.

It's a simplistic response, but there is no way to ever know with certainty the thought processes that other individuals undergo. Therefore it is only appropriate to withhold judgment or the ascribing of choice to others.

Then you admit there is no way to prove that sexuality isn't a choice.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 2:49:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:34:38 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM, zoinks wrote:
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.

If no one here proves that it is not a choice, what impact does that have, in your mind, on whether it actually is a choice?

I believe sexuality is OBVIOUSLY a choice. People choose who their partners are - end of story.

So many others insist I'm wrong. So prove it. Show me it's not a choice, because I've never seen one hint of a modicum of proof to even remotely suggest this is true.

All I've ever seen are arguments over semantics about how popular culture defines words and other arguments from fallacy.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 3:22:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:47:39 PM, zoinks wrote:
At 3/22/2015 2:12:24 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
But sexuality is, by definition, the sexual attraction (or lack thereof) an individual experiences.

Sexuality encompasses more than sexual attraction or it serves no fundamental purpose to even call it sexuality, since sexual attraction already suffices.

Arguing over semantics isn't going to help you prove anything here.


Of course you choose to take (or not take) romantic or sexual partners, but that's a behavior set that is independent of sexuality.

So your argument is that sexuality is only one aspect of partner choice rather than the entirety of it? How do you justify this?

There's a reason why we draw a distinction between celibacy (the choice to not engage in sexual conduct) and asexuality (the absence of sexual attraction to any other individual).

Except asexuality doesn't necessarily have to be a lack of attraction - it can simply be lack of action or pursuit of a partner.


As to the challenge to prove that it's not a choice? My kneejerk response is simply that it isn't my burden of proof to affirm a negation.

That's why it's been placed as a challenge. I don't want anyone crying and whining that it isn't on them to prove anything because they know they can't get it done.

But, shelving that concern, you simply have to take firsthand accounts at face value. Honest to god, you're just going to have to trust me that it was not a choice of mine to be attracted to more than one gender.

First, I don't have to trust you at all. I don't know you, and have no reason to trust you. So you'll obviously have to try harder on this one.

Second, even if that were the case, I'm not talking about attraction here, but all the factors which encompass choice of romantic and/or sexual partner.

It's a simplistic response, but there is no way to ever know with certainty the thought processes that other individuals undergo. Therefore it is only appropriate to withhold judgment or the ascribing of choice to others.

Then you admit there is no way to prove that sexuality isn't a choice.

Okay, so obviously our disagreement comes down to the definition of sexuality--I still affirm my definition as correct (which the entirety of academia on gender, sexuality, psychology, and sociology basically all agrees with--for instance, see the APA http://www.apa.org...).

But I'm very interested in the other response to your post--if I accept your definitions, sure, you're right, sexuality would then be a choice. But the question I have then is why does it actually matter? What's the impact of your belief, other than just proving other people wrong? Is that realization supposed to do something for me, or my politics? What's the impact?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 3:34:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:49:32 PM, zoinks wrote:
At 3/22/2015 2:34:38 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM, zoinks wrote:
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.

If no one here proves that it is not a choice, what impact does that have, in your mind, on whether it actually is a choice?

I believe sexuality is OBVIOUSLY a choice. People choose who their partners are - end of story.

So many others insist I'm wrong. So prove it. Show me it's not a choice, because I've never seen one hint of a modicum of proof to even remotely suggest this is true.

All I've ever seen are arguments over semantics about how popular culture defines words and other arguments from fallacy.

Fair enough. I gather that what you're saying is that sexuality is wilful sexual activity rather than merely being expressed through wilful sexual activity, and anything done wilfully is done by choice by definition. Am I getting that right?

My question was more to do with epistemology, though. I meant to ask what you believe are the implications of a failure to prove not(A) on proposition A, where A and not(A) are mutually exclusive, and the only two possible answers to a given question.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 4:36:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that this can be somewhat proven by using a metaphor. You always hear the saying that you can choose your financial situation. Everyone knows that there are more factors in this situation obviously. Being rich or broke directly affects your social life etc. Class is also a broad spectrum and is very fluid, ever-changing as you grow or not. There isn't just a poor person and rich person. It isn't just black or white, their are gray areas, people who live from paycheck to paycheck or people who remain middle class. Your income can fluctuate at anytime based on your environment and your choices. One day you can choose to work overtime, take advantage of a big opportunity if you have the right resources or decide to just sleep in and spend all of your money on ebay.

Now lets bring it back.

You always hear the saying that you can choose your sexuality. Everyone knows that there are more factors in this situation obviously. Being gay or straight directly affects your social life etc. Sexuality is also a broad spectrum, ever-changing as you grow or not. There isn't just a gay person and straight person. It isn't just black or white, their are gray areas, people who experiment with the same sex with their same sex partner or straight men who like women that look like women but have penises instead of vaginas. Your sexuality can fluctuate at anytime based on your environment AND your choices. One day you can choose to flirt with a random woman because you like her butt, and the other you can turn around and be attracted to the same butt on a mans body and get a random boner out of nowhere.

People always conflate the sexual act with sexuality. I know that sounds weird but think about it. The act of sex in itself doesn't define your sexuality. And it is obviously isn't just what you are attracted too. It is a combination of both choice and attraction, coupled with social performance and desire. A macho man could really like anal sex from his wife with a toy. A sophisticated woman could love cunnilingus and not care who or what its from. This is where things like pansexuality come in etc.. What you like and what you are attracted to obviously can change over time based on your choices and environment and subconscious. And you really can't choose what you are attracted to if you think about it, Which is how sexuality is so fluid. When your younger you don't actively say okay I'm going to be attracted to just women You grow up in your mind with what you potentially like based off of hat your parents expose you to, and then get buck wild in college and see for yourself. . This is why so many young people go through "phases" and experiment everywhere and then get turned out. After this exploration or experimentation, you try to go back to being vanilla and straight but can't quite get there. This is why Viagra and other erectile dysfunction pills are so hot right now for middle aged peeps, other than the fact that some have health issues.

No one ever likes to talk about that because that automatically threatens staunchly straight mens "Manliness" or vice versa. So Its not so much "I'm born this way" or "I choose to be this way". Your desires can change, for some very little and for others very often. I think to say that it is just a choice or just natural are both wrong really. Attraction/ Desire, choice, and social performance play an integral part in your sexuality.

This is why we have men who have wives with suppressed gay fantasies. You'd say he was "straight" because he acted a certain way, had a wife, a certain type of car and a couple of kids. And ten as soon as he left his wife he'd be "gay because now he is out socially with his new bf. This is how you perform your sexuality comes in and how people can say out their mouths "omg you act so gay" or "omg i would've never known you are gay" It's not that he was born gay. He may have very well got off with his wife. Something in his desires has changed and he chose to act on it.

I hope I don't get too much flack for this post by you guys but it is true...

If you read my long exegesis kudos to you.
lannan13
Posts: 23,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 4:38:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

Not necessarially. I'm pansexual and I find all genders sexual attractive. For me their gender really doesn't matter, but I do have my preferances.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
AFism
Posts: 1,030
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 4:39:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

I think thats the crux of my argument. And it's the truth.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 5:07:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 4:38:23 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

Not necessarially. I'm pansexual and I find all genders sexual attractive. For me their gender really doesn't matter, but I do have my preferances.

How is what you're saying different?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 5:17:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:12:24 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
But sexuality is, by definition, the sexual attraction (or lack thereof) an individual experiences.

Of course you choose to take (or not take) romantic or sexual partners, but that's a behavior set that is independent of sexuality. There's a reason why we draw a distinction between celibacy (the choice to not engage in sexual conduct) and asexuality (the absence of sexual attraction to any other individual).

As to the challenge to prove that it's not a choice? My kneejerk response is simply that it isn't my burden of proof to affirm a negation. But, shelving that concern, you simply have to take firsthand accounts at face value. Honest to god, you're just going to have to trust me that it was not a choice of mine to be attracted to more than one gender. It's a simplistic response, but there is no way to ever know with certainty the thought processes that other individuals undergo. Therefore it is only appropriate to withhold judgment or the ascribing of choice to others.

http://img.dare.co.uk...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 5:35:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

Not to this guy, for some reason.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 6:47:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, so obviously our disagreement comes down to the definition of sexuality

No. I established in the original post that any argument which relies only upon one element of sexuality rather than the whole won't function here. I even specifically mentioned sexual attraction as being the element most commonly used.

--I still affirm my definition as correct (which the entirety of academia on gender, sexuality, psychology, and sociology basically all agrees with--for instance, see the APA http://www.apa.org...).

Believe whatever you want to believe in your own mind.

This isn't going to help you prove anything here.


But I'm very interested in the other response to your post--if I accept your definitions, sure, you're right, sexuality would then be a choice.

Then sexuality is a choice. End of story.

But the question I have then is why does it actually matter?

Because I'm sick of people saying it's not a choice with nothing to back up that assertion but fallacy and thin air.

What's the impact of your belief, other than just proving other people wrong?

It doesn't matter if I prove people wrong. In fact, I've done that in several other threads and it's largely irrelevant because they don't care if they're wrong - they'll tell each other they're right and continue on wallowing in their ignorance because that's where they want to be.

Is that realization supposed to do something for me, or my politics? What's the impact?

If you're not determined to ignore the realization, it should obviously impact the way you think about the issues at hand.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 6:48:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

Yes - provided no one tries to use propaganda to argue that attraction should somehow matter over partner choice.

That's the problem to begin with - the agenda to convince people one element of partner choice should matter over the actual choice of partner.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 6:51:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fair enough. I gather that what you're saying is that sexuality is wilful sexual activity rather than merely being expressed through wilful sexual activity, and anything done wilfully is done by choice by definition. Am I getting that right?

Not exactly.

I'm saying sexuality is represented by a choice of romantic and/or sexual partner, or pursuit of the same (because obviously there are reasons a pursuit may not end in actual partnership).

My question was more to do with epistemology, though. I meant to ask what you believe are the implications of a failure to prove not(A) on proposition A, where A and not(A) are mutually exclusive, and the only two possible answers to a given question.

I don't think A and not A are the only possible answers; in fact, I think not A draws a logical conclusion of B, which in addition to not being A is a separate conclusion in its own right.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 6:55:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 4:36:46 PM, AFism wrote:
I think that this can be somewhat proven by using a metaphor. You always hear the saying that you can choose your financial situation. Everyone knows that there are more factors in this situation obviously. Being rich or broke directly affects your social life etc. Class is also a broad spectrum and is very fluid, ever-changing as you grow or not. There isn't just a poor person and rich person. It isn't just black or white, their are gray areas, people who live from paycheck to paycheck or people who remain middle class. Your income can fluctuate at anytime based on your environment and your choices. One day you can choose to work overtime, take advantage of a big opportunity if you have the right resources or decide to just sleep in and spend all of your money on ebay.

Now lets bring it back.

You always hear the saying that you can choose your sexuality. Everyone knows that there are more factors in this situation obviously. Being gay or straight directly affects your social life etc. Sexuality is also a broad spectrum, ever-changing as you grow or not. There isn't just a gay person and straight person. It isn't just black or white, their are gray areas, people who experiment with the same sex with their same sex partner or straight men who like women that look like women but have penises instead of vaginas. Your sexuality can fluctuate at anytime based on your environment AND your choices. One day you can choose to flirt with a random woman because you like her butt, and the other you can turn around and be attracted to the same butt on a mans body and get a random boner out of nowhere.

People always conflate the sexual act with sexuality. I know that sounds weird but think about it. The act of sex in itself doesn't define your sexuality. And it is obviously isn't just what you are attracted too. It is a combination of both choice and attraction, coupled with social performance and desire. A macho man could really like anal sex from his wife with a toy. A sophisticated woman could love cunnilingus and not care who or what its from. This is where things like pansexuality come in etc.. What you like and what you are attracted to obviously can change over time based on your choices and environment and subconscious. And you really can't choose what you are attracted to if you think about it, Which is how sexuality is so fluid. When your younger you don't actively say okay I'm going to be attracted to just women You grow up in your mind with what you potentially like based off of hat your parents expose you to, and then get buck wild in college and see for yourself. . This is why so many young people go through "phases" and experiment everywhere and then get turned out. After this exploration or experimentation, you try to go back to being vanilla and straight but can't quite get there. This is why Viagra and other erectile dysfunction pills are so hot right now for middle aged peeps, other than the fact that some have health issues.

No one ever likes to talk about that because that automatically threatens staunchly straight mens "Manliness" or vice versa. So Its not so much "I'm born this way" or "I choose to be this way". Your desires can change, for some very little and for others very often. I think to say that it is just a choice or just natural are both wrong really. Attraction/ Desire, choice, and social performance play an integral part in your sexuality.

This is why we have men who have wives with suppressed gay fantasies. You'd say he was "straight" because he acted a certain way, had a wife, a certain type of car and a couple of kids. And ten as soon as he left his wife he'd be "gay because now he is out socially with his new bf. This is how you perform your sexuality comes in and how people can say out their mouths "omg you act so gay" or "omg i would've never known you are gay" It's not that he was born gay. He may have very well got off with his wife. Something in his desires has changed and he chose to act on it.

I hope I don't get too much flack for this post by you guys but it is true...

If you read my long exegesis kudos to you.

Overall this is probably one of the best posts I've read about regarding this topic. I can't say I agree with everything said, but it's well said anyway.

It shows that you understand that elements of sexuality ARE a choice. Elements of sexuality being a choice leads logically to sexuality itself being a choice.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 7:16:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So what are the implications, then, of sexuality being a choice? Seriously, I want to know; because as far as I can tell, whether or not sexuality is a choice means literally nothing when it comes to the issues surrounding sexual minorities--at all.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
AFism
Posts: 1,030
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2015 7:51:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Overall this is probably one of the best posts I've read about regarding this topic. I can't say I agree with everything said, but it's well said anyway.

It shows that you understand that elements of sexuality ARE a choice. Elements of sexuality being a choice leads logically to sexuality itself being a choice.

Thanks, I try.
Was it the examples? I tried not to be to vulgar. I guess to be more specific is that the way you perform you sexuality is a choice. No one really knows who you are screwing until you socially parade your lovers anyways. What many are trying to say is that sexual attraction is not a choice and this may very well be true.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2015 5:59:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
In other words, accept your definition of a word to prove how your definition of the word is incorrect.

No thank you.

Sexuality is not defined by who you are with, but who you are attracted to. That is no your choice. To state otherwise accepts your definition, which is the point of contention.

This woman LOOOOOVES cats. Straight up cat lover. Pictures everywhere, watches cat youtube videos, has Galaxy Houston on TiVo, wears the shirts, you name it.

But she doesn't own a cat.

According to Zoinks, even though she goes through the motions she is not actually a 'cat lover', as she -could be- lying about all that other stuff. She would have to own a cat to prove it.

Parallel this with the awkward teen boy that is to shy to ask a girl out, but pines away for her, and we have an example which demonstrates your definition to be false, but why: much like emotion, sexuality is NOT a choice of partner to make a demonstration, its a state of mind. The orientation a person has need not be demonstrated to exist, and thats what the definition is doing: defining that state of mind, not that state of action.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2015 12:02:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 6:48:42 PM, zoinks wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:26:42 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People choose who they are with, but they don't choose who they are attracted to. Is that sufficient?

Yes - provided no one tries to use propaganda to argue that attraction should somehow matter over partner choice.

That's the problem to begin with - the agenda to convince people one element of partner choice should matter over the actual choice of partner.

And you are arguing that one aspect of a person should limit the partner choice. An aspect, that most would agree is pretty damn important.
My work here is, finally, done.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2015 4:10:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 7:16:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
So what are the implications, then, of sexuality being a choice? Seriously, I want to know; because as far as I can tell, whether or not sexuality is a choice means literally nothing when it comes to the issues surrounding sexual minorities--at all.

If sexuality is a choice, and it is, then people are free to agree or disagree with it, as they can with any other choice.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2015 4:13:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:10:51 PM, zoinks wrote:
At 3/22/2015 7:16:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
So what are the implications, then, of sexuality being a choice? Seriously, I want to know; because as far as I can tell, whether or not sexuality is a choice means literally nothing when it comes to the issues surrounding sexual minorities--at all.

If sexuality is a choice, and it is, then people are free to agree or disagree with it, as they can with any other choice.

Well, you can disagree or agree with it already, even if it isn't a choice. The line gets crossed for me--whether it's a choice or not--when one tries to codify and impose that disagreement using force (ie, the State).
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2015 5:44:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You just get more ridiculous every day.
You can't prove with your ridiculous arguments that being gay is a choice in the other thread, so now you challenge anyone to prove it is not a choice (yet another of your logical fallacies).
What burden of proof do you want? Beyond a reasonable doubt? Preponderance of evidence?
Here are the FACTS, in a nutshell :
1) As of yet, there is no "beyond a reasonable doubt" proof, one way or the other.
2) The preponderance of evidence, as collected, studied, and analyzed by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Medical Association, in their PROFESSIONAL OPINION indicates it is NOT A CHOICE!!!!!
Now, you don't like that because it doesn't fit your personal bias and illogical assumptions. Well, guess what?
TOUGH SH_T!!!!!!!!! GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!!!!
Grow up. Get a life. Find something else to obsess about. This issue is a dead end for you. Quit making a complete a$$ of yourself.
I am over being angry with you, or feeling pity for you. I'm just sick and tired of your stupidity.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2015 7:02:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If sexuality is a choice, and it is, then people are free to agree or disagree with it, as they can with any other choice.

Well, you can disagree or agree with it already, even if it isn't a choice.

Sure, you can agree or disagree at will with anything you'd like.

However, people tend to express an opinion of agreement or disagreement over things they believe are CHOICES rather than those things over which they believe no one has control.

This is something people realized long ago, and it is the REASON the agenda to convince people sexuality isn't a choice began its campaign of lies and propaganda.

Once they convince people of the lie sexuality isn't a choice, well then people will accept whatever choice anyone makes.

It's like much of society has been brainwashed into believing a complete falsehood (though some willingly believe because it forwards their personal choices as well).

The line gets crossed for me--whether it's a choice or not--when one tries to codify and impose that disagreement using force (ie, the State).

The state makes laws all the time regarding people's choices. In fact, that's the basis of most laws.

You can choose to rob a bank or not. You can choose to punch everyone you see in the face or not. Both have laws against them.

So it makes perfect sense for those who disagree with a practice to advocate for a law against said practice. Whether they get such a law (or keep such a law) is another matter, but there's nothing wrong with advocating for a law which would attempt to prevent undesirable choices.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2015 7:08:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You can't prove with your ridiculous arguments that being gay is a choice in the other thread, so now you challenge anyone to prove it is not a choice (yet another of your logical fallacies).

Actually, I DID prove being gay is a choice. Your refusal to accept it doesn't somehow make it go away. Nice try, though.

Now I'm putting it on you to prove your side (something you failed to do in the other thread, mostly from lack of any argument whatsoever).

What burden of proof do you want? Beyond a reasonable doubt? Preponderance of evidence?

Use of logical reasoning to show a choice doesn't exist. That's all. It shouldn't be difficult if you're correct as you assert.

Here are the FACTS, in a nutshell :
1) As of yet, there is no "beyond a reasonable doubt" proof, one way or the other.

Great. Except there is. Choice of partner. You can't get around that.

2) The preponderance of evidence, as collected, studied, and analyzed by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Medical Association, in their PROFESSIONAL OPINION indicates it is NOT A CHOICE!!!!!

And yet those opinions disagree with simple logic. Again, you haven't gotten around that.

Now, you don't like that because it doesn't fit your personal bias and illogical assumptions. Well, guess what?

There is no personal bias. There is only use of logical reasoning.

TOUGH SH_T!!!!!!!!! GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!!!!

Calm down. Stop making this about me. Your problem is with logical reasoning. I'm just the messenger.

Grow up. Get a life. Find something else to obsess about. This issue is a dead end for you. Quit making a complete a$$ of yourself.

Of course you'd like me to quit posting about this, because every time I do, it reveals the truth that sexuality is a choice. And that frustrates you, because you think otherwise.

Well, defend yourself with logical reasoning if you can. You haven't yet, so I suspect you cannot. THAT is your problem - logic doesn't support your position.

I am over being angry with you, or feeling pity for you. I'm just sick and tired of your stupidity.

You are sick and tired of me using logic to show you're wrong. So either use logic yourself or shut up and accept that you have lost.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2015 8:57:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM, zoinks wrote:
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.

Really? Easy. How about the time in 11th grade when I got a raging hard on during basket ball practice while watching the women's gymnastics team practice. Had to sit on the stage for a while before getting back on my feet. I never once had that experience while watching the mens wrestling team.

Do you really like to think that you CHOOSE to be attracted to women? Just because sexual stimulation can result in learned behaviors does not mean that attraction to gender exclusively falls in that category.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2015 1:46:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:57:16 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 3/22/2015 2:01:44 PM, zoinks wrote:
This is an open challenge to anyone to prove that sexuality is not a choice. So many people seem to believe this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it anywhere.

People choose to be with romantic and/or sexual partners for a variety of reasons, not just innate sexual attraction; therefore in order to prove sexuality isn't a choice, you'll need to deal with those other aspects of partner choice as well. In other words, claiming sexuality is the same as mere sexual attraction is NOT going to get the job done.

I'm curious to see if anyone can even come close to this, because I think it's impossible.

Really? Easy. How about the time in 11th grade when I got a raging hard on during basket ball practice while watching the women's gymnastics team practice. Had to sit on the stage for a while before getting back on my feet. I never once had that experience while watching the mens wrestling team.

Great, so you're attracted to one or more of those women. Attraction is only ONE aspect of partner choice and sexuality. So what does what you just said have to do with your choice of romantic and/or sexual partner?

Do you really like to think that you CHOOSE to be attracted to women?

No one chooses attraction, but a choice of partner encompasses much more than mere attraction.

Just because sexual stimulation can result in learned behaviors does not mean that attraction to gender exclusively falls in that category.

And attraction to gender is, again, just ONE aspect of partner choice and sexuality.